UK Pliosaur

Wibbs

You never know what you may find http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8322000/8322629.stm I hope fossil hunting in Ireland doesnt go the way of some parts of Irish archaeology where gifted amateurs aren't regarded so well. There are still great finds out there. I'd put good money there are early amphibians, really early reptiles, unknown fish and sharks and arthropods and even whole ecosystems awaiting discovery in Ireland. Even better examples of known creatures. Fantastic stuff has been found in scotland in strata not dissimilar to our own again by amateurs so keep the oul eyes peeled.:)

Jako8

woah 16 m in length!

Has there ever been fossil finds in Ireland?

marco_polo

For less than a tenner might come in handy.

http://www.appletree.ie/cat/books/0733.htm

marco_polo

An article in New Scientist, inspired by the most recent find.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18047-real-sea-monsters-the-hunt-for-predator-x.html?page=1

Galvasean

There was actually a small write up about it in today's Indo. Must keep an eye out for that issue of New scientist magazine.


One of these gigantic pliosaurs must have been a sight to behold. Nothing we have today even compares. I mean sure a sperm whale could exceed one in size, but I can't imagine anyone getting into the water with a pliosaur!
I mean look at the comparison to the killer whale, the apex predator of the modern oceans:

It's not even half the size! I'd imagine a whole pod could take one, but I'm sure they'd take flight before even attempting it.


Tough luck mate.

anonymous_joe

Bet there'd be a ton of 'tuna' in them.

Galvasean

Some CT scans have been done to get a much better look at the fossils:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12039963

Rubecula

I noticed they used the film of Liopleurodon from the walking with dinosaurs series.

Mind you Liopleurodon was a giant carniverous pliosaur

Wibbs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14061347

Found by an amateur over a long period of time. Fair play to them for their patience. You never know what you might find out there.

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

I mean look at the comparison to the killer whale, the apex predator of the modern oceans:

It's not even half the size! I'd imagine a whole pod could take one, but I'm sure they'd take flight before even attempting it.

I don´t know... killer whales aren´t used to fleeing from any other sea creature. As much as I love pliosaurs, I think it would be in great danger if it met an orca pod.

Rubecula

This is the news (from BBC) that possibly the most fearsome predator ever seen on the Earth will be on display to the public. It is a giant pliosaur fossil that was found in Dorset, England.

It has take 18 months to free the skull from the surrounding rock, but it reveals the fossil in remarkable detail and indicates it may be a new species or even a new genus of creature.

The fossil is on display at the Dorset County Museum.

Kess73

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14061347



A skull belonging to one of the largest "sea monsters" ever unearthed is being unveiled to the public.

The beast, which is called a pliosaur, has been described as the most fearsome predator the Earth has seen.

The fossil was found in Dorset, but it has taken 18 months to remove the skull from its rocky casing, revealing the monster in remarkable detail.

Scientists suspect the creature, which is on show at the Dorset County Museum, may be a new species or even genus.

Richard Edmonds, Dorset County Council's earth science manager for the Jurassic Coast, said: "This is amazing. We saw this fossil initially as a pile of bones - and slowly, after a lot of hard work, it has come together.

"We are now told this skull is 95% complete, and probably one of the largest and certainly one of the most well-preserved and complete pliosaurs ever found anywhere in the world."

The 155-million-year-old fossil was discovered by local collector Kevan Sheehan between 2003 and 2008 as it gradually tumbled out of the cliffs near Weymouth.

He told BBC News: "It was sheer luck - I was sitting on the beach, and saw three pieces. I had no idea what they were, but I proceeded to drag them back. Then over several years, I'd go back every year and find a new piece. I'm a beach magpie."


Pliosaurs were the top predators of the oceans
At first it more closely resembled huge lumps of rock than a marine monster, but a lengthy preparation process that has been carried out by fossil expert Scott Moore-Faye has revealed the fine details of the fossil.

Looking somewhat like a crocodile on steroids, it is now easy to see the power of this "biting machine": pliosaurs, which lived during the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods were the top predators of the oceans.

On show now are its eye sockets, perched upon the top of its head, revealing how it would have fixed its stare on any passing prey; the openings that held its it immensely powerful jaw muscles, allowing it to crunch down on anything that crossed its path; and the huge holes, running all the way down its snout, that contained its giant, razor-sharp teeth to help finish the meal off.


When the fossil was first found, it was covered in rocky debris Palaeontologist Richard Forrest said: "This is an iconic specimen - one of the most exciting we have seen in years.

"It was probably the most fearsome predator that ever lived. Standing in front of the skull you can imagine this enormous beast staring straight back at you, fixing you with its binocular vision, and attacking. Just thinking about it raises the hairs on the back of your neck."

Its bulky body, which would have been powered through the water with four paddle-like limbs, has never been found - and may not even have fossilised.

But new estimates from scientists, based on the 2.4m-long skull, suggest that the predator would have measured between 15-18m from tip to tail.

Biggest beast?

Currently, the owner of the title of world's biggest sea monster is tricky to ascertain, as it is rare to find a complete fossil.


The pliosaur from Dorset is big - but perhaps not the biggest But pieces of potentially larger specimens have been found in the brick pits of Oxfordshire, and the skull of a species of pliosaur called Kronosaurus, from Australia, could be up to 3m (10ft) long. Recent finds in Svalbard, such as the aptly named "Monster" and "Predator X", as well as the "Monster of Aramberri", found in Mexico are also contenders.

However, scientists say that having a skull that is only missing the tip of its snout and a small piece of its jaw, gives them a rare chance to get a glimpse into the life of this ancient animal.

CT scans carried out by a team at the School of Engineering Sciences University of Southampton, which probe the fossil using X-rays, are now being studied to assess whether this creature is new to science.

Richard Edmonds said: "I've looked at some of the papers of described animals, and it looks different: it is much more massive, much more robust.


The fossil is now going on display at Dorset County Museum "But to determine whether it is anything new is a whole study in its own right. We'll have to go away, carefully compared to the existing species.

"But I wouldn't be surprised if in a year's time, we are standing here and looking at something that is new to science."

The fossil, which was purchased for £20,000 by the Dorset County Museum using Heritage Lottery Funds, with half of the money going to the collector and half to the landowner, is now going on public display. Sir David Attenborough is carrying out the opening ceremony.

David Tucker, Dorset County Museums Adviser said: "Our initial expectations have been more than met and the creature looks absolutely fabulous and we doubt whether there is a more complete pliosaur skull anywhere in the world.

"It is amazing to have the largest, most complete skull of the most powerful predator to live on Earth on display on the Jurassic Coast World Heritage Site, the home of the science of palaeontology

Galvasean

3 threads on one topic merged

Kess73

Adam Khor wrote: »

I don´t know... killer whales aren´t used to fleeing from any other sea creature. As much as I love pliosaurs, I think it would be in great danger if it met an orca pod.

Would agree with that. Only one animal in the sea seems to have the ability to scatter Orca and that is a Bull sperm whale.

But Orca have been recorded as having killed female sperm whale which are much smaller than the bulls, but are still animals in the 8m-15m and 10 -15 ton range that have the tools to fight back.


I think a 10 -16m pliosaur would get attacked by a large pod of orca, and my money would be on the orca winning that clash.

Rubecula

Galvasean wrote: »

3 threads on one topic merged

Thanks for that mate I hold my hand up to being a thread starter on a subject already open elsewhere. My apologies.

Alvin T. Grey

Kess73 wrote: »

Would agree with that. Only one animal in the sea seems to have the ability to scatter Orca and that is a Bull sperm whale.

But Orca have been recorded as having killed female sperm whale which are much smaller than the bulls, but are still animals in the 8m-15m and 10 -15 ton range that have the tools to fight back.


I think a 10 -16m pliosaur would get attacked by a large pod of orca, and my money would be on the orca winning that clash.

Betcha they loose a few doin' it.....:D

Galvasean

Kess73 wrote: »

Would agree with that. Only one animal in the sea seems to have the ability to scatter Orca and that is a Bull sperm whale.

But Orca have been recorded as having killed female sperm whale which are much smaller than the bulls, but are still animals in the 8m-15m and 10 -15 ton range that have the tools to fight back.

Female sperm whales don't have pronounced teeth though.
Pronounced scary teeth! :eek:

Galvasean

Pictures!!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/07/pictures/110712-pliosaur-fossil-sea-monster-biggest-skull/#/pliosaur-fossil-found-illustration_37423_600x450.jpg

Kess73

Galvasean wrote: »

Female sperm whales don't have pronounced teeth though.
Pronounced scary teeth! :eek:

Nowt unimpressive about a sperm whale's dentures either.

Teeth can be up to nine inches long, three inches thick and each tooth can weigh up to a kg.


Plus throw in the sheer size of each whale and the ability to ram.

Adam Khor

What about Leviathan? (Yeah I know the spelling has been changed but I like it better the old way)... it had much more impressive jaws than sperm whales.
I'll take the risk of sounding like an obsessive Carnivora Forum fanboy but, Pliosaur vs Leviathan anyone?

Kess73

And a few links to the beast that lived alongside the megalodon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_melvillei


http://www.carnivoraforum.com/index.cgi?board=dinosaur&action=display&thread=7406

steddyeddy

Wibbs wrote: »

You never know what you may find http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8322000/8322629.stm I hope fossil hunting in Ireland doesnt go the way of some parts of Irish archaeology where gifted amateurs aren't regarded so well. There are still great finds out there. I'd put good money there are early amphibians, really early reptiles, unknown fish and sharks and arthropods and even whole ecosystems awaiting discovery in Ireland. Even better examples of known creatures. Fantastic stuff has been found in scotland in strata not dissimilar to our own again by amateurs so keep the oul eyes peeled.:)

Why arent gifted amateurs well respected in Irish archeology Wibbs? In zoology amatuers are very well thought of after all dian fossey and jane goodal werent academics yet made great discoveries. The same with many amatuers who discover new creatures. I know that david attenborough is a keen amatuer fossil collector and from him I got the impression the amatuers were welcome a welcome part of fossil hunting there?

steddyeddy

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

Betcha they loose a few doin' it.....:D

My money would be on a pod of sperm whales beating both but whose to say a pliosaur didnt swim in pods?

Adam Khor

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why arent gifted amateurs well respected in Irish archeology Wibbs? In zoology amatuers are very well thought of after all dian fossey and jane goodal werent academics yet made great discoveries. The same with many amatuers who discover new creatures. I know that david attenborough is a keen amatuer fossil collector and from him I got the impression the amatuers were welcome a welcome part of fossil hunting there?

I know the question wasn´t for me, but in my personal experience, amateurs aren´t well thought of anywhere. Most paleontologists I've met are an arrogant bunch and if you are not professionally within their circles, they will not even share their information with you. Sometimes they can be very rude. There are exceptions, of course, but truth is, if you're an amateur, you can consider yourself lucky if you get respect from the fat dogs in whatever field.

Wibbs

Depends on the field. Some are very much worse than others. Pro astronomers are very open to "amateurs" work and discoveries and it's helped that area of science in a big way. Some areas of zoology can be similar(bird watching and the like). It depends on the amateur too. Lazy amateurs that don't keep good records make any finds next to useless.

Depends on the culture behind it in a big way. IE the UK scientists would be more open to amateur enthusiasts reporting finds and research. This is what I've gleaned from amateur palaeontologists over there anyway. The US seems to be similar(but changing) Here, not nearly so much. Very much a closed shop. Too much of the "I'm an expert you know/I couldn't be bothered" ballsology going on*.

On fossil collecting I'm not sure it's even officially legal in Ireland anymore? AFAIK fossils broadly fall under the umbrella of the various heritage protection acts. The natural history museum is a museum of a museum. In other areas of our heritage the money isn't there, or sometimes the will. There have been some serious blunders on that score through the years.

IMHO and it's just MH, there was a bit of a cut off in mindset after independence. Some areas of science were considered "science of the big house", somehow "English" in nature(not unlike Georgian Dublin being left to rot for most of the 20th century. It wasn't "ours" it was "theirs"). Hence our natural history museum pickled in Victorian aspic. There was a certain resistance that sprang from that. Plus a goodly proportion of the finds in said museum were donated collections of amateurs. Goes for most museums around the world. If you emptied museums today of amateur collected fossils(and artifacts in a lot of cases) there would be huge gaps missing. It would be my opinion that there is a lot of stuff out there in this country that remains to be catalogued. Sadly I suspect a fair amount of it has already been found and ebayed off. I've certainly seen some antiquities that had very dubious origins being sold off. Usually with the description of "from an old Irish collection".






*I was at a house party many moons ago where an Irish expert of note who shall remain nameless of a field that shall remain nameless was waxing lyrical to a couple of people who happened to be students of his. Clearly in an area he knew jack about, but felt happy to pontificate on. Someone questioned him and he got all uppity. I went to a computer, called up research which proved him a class A bullshítter and still he brassed it out, proclaiming his expert status.

Galvasean

Good old argument from authority, the scientific equivalent of yelling, "STFU n00b!!!"