Christian "Moderator"

Mark Hamill

I recieved this infraction from PDN, one of the moderators in the christain forum :

PDN wrote:

Dear Mark Hamill,

You have received a warning at boards.ie.

Reason:

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Back Seat Modding

Please don't try debating moderators' decisions or advice inthread.

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Original Post:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62649259

PDN wrote:

Moderating Note: The OP asked a question of Christians in the Christianity forum. He is entitled to do that. And Christians should be entitled to give answers.

If other atheists want to argue about this subject, or proclaim their own views, then take it to the A&A forum.

The Christian position is that God is omniscient, and so He can see our futures. We are created as free moral beings, so we are responsible for actions.

I did not see "christians only" anywear in the OP, besides the logic of my point exists regardless of wether I am atheist or theist (Infact, my reasoning was based on the assumption of gods existence, so its pointedly non-atheist reasoning).

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
boards.ie

I responded with:

Mark Hamill wrote:

I was not back seat modding. You claimed the OP was a question from a christian directed to christians only. I pointed out that he did not say "christian only" responses, (if he had, I would not have even read the thread).
Secondly, I pointed out that my point wasn't even from an atheistic point of view (it was essentially the same point as what prinz had say, he said so himself).

PDNs response:

PDN wrote:

Let me explain what 'backseat modding' means.

It does not mean that that anyone's interpretation of the OP is right or wrong. It does not mean that you were responding as an atheist or anything else. It does not mean that the moderator was right or wrong. Backseat modding is when you question, discuss or challenge a moderator's directions or decisions in the thread instead of by PM.

Now, having got that out of the way, let's look at your other points.

The OP asked a question in the Christianity forum. There is an unfortunate track record in this forum of one atheist asking a question, and then a bunch of other atheists giving their opinions. If they want to do that then they already have the A&A forum to do so.

If they want to hear Christiian answers they can come to the Christianity forum, if they want to hear atheist answers they can go to the A&A forum.

The 'Christian Response' only option is there for Christians to flag a thread as an in-house discussion. The fact that an unbeliever OP doesn't raise that flag does not necessarily mean that a free for all is welcome.

We are in the process of cleaning up this forum so it can fulfill the intentions of the Admins. Until people get used to the stricter implementation of the Charter then there will inevitably be some misunderstandings and frustrations. That is unfortunate, but probably necessary in making sure there is no return to the kind of ****e that was taking place before.

I reposnded with:

Mark Hamill wrote:

I saw no indication at the time of posting that the OP is an unbeliever.

I believe the intentions of the Admins was to have a christian forum where christianity can be openly discussed. If you are of the opinion that christianity cannot survive serious discussions with atheists* then that shows a suprising lack of faith in your own religion.

* The atheists who regularly post on the christianity forum are serious about how they question it. There are few atheists who have trolled before, but they almost always are new posters who are usually kicked off the forum (and rightfully so).

PDN responded with:

PDN wrote:

Ah, would you get over yourself? It's nothing to do with surviving serious discussions. It's about a tiny group of people (atheists) hijacking each and every thread so that every discussion becomes an 'us versus them' thing.

Most Christians wouldn't give atheists or atheism a thought from one week to the next. On our scale of priorities you rank very low indeed. Therefore we want a forum where we can discuss the stuff that matters to us.

If you want to argue against religion then you have the A&A forum to do it in. One of those is enough. I fail to see why you want a second version of it, or why you think we should accomodate your attempts to create A&A mark II in the Christianity forum.

I responded with:

Mark Hamill wrote:

Get over my self? Are you for real? You start talking about your religion, some atheist will point out a flaw or contradiction that is invariably there and then you throw a hissy fit and claim that we are trying to hijack your forum. Its you who needs to get off your high horse and recognise that your religious ideas are not above questioning and its not our fault that nearly everything about your religion is so questionable.
Either use the forum as a way to expand improve your own religious ideas or quite posting on it. Its a public forum, not a private christian blog.

PDNs reposnse:

PDN wrote:

Typically trollish response.

Look, I've made clear to you how the charter is being implemented and the forum is being moderated.

If you can't abide by that then it will be you that will be quitting posting on the forum.

This short discussion is fairly representative of how a lot of interfaith discussions with PDN go. He makes his points you make yours. If your points are better and you are an atheist then you are, in his views a troll. PDN seems to be of the opinion that all threads in which any atheist posts an opinion or a point contrary to a christian is only fine up to the point where the christian feels he is losing the argument, and then its a case of the christian is being attacked. PDN made a thread on this very subject and was immediately rebutted on the same, but he wasn't interesting in listening.
He is not interested in serious discussion about his religioun if that discussion debates the veracity of any article he believes in. He has repeatedly stifled serious debate because they dont go his way and now, when I question him on this in the above PMs, his response is to call me a troll?
I think its time PDN should be replaced. He is incapable of both having intelligent debates and moderating impartially. Its is turning what should be a public Christianty forum where Christian issues are to be seriously discussed by any who is willing, into little more than a blog, where opposing views are discouraged and the entire point is lost.

BuffyBot

Well, first off - you should have taken it straight to PM. It's considered bad form to question moderating decisions on thread, as it just drags the thread off topic.

Saying you don't see "Christians only" in a Christianity Forum is like saying you don't see a leaf on a tree in the middle of summer. The forum is designed as a space for Christians, and interested parties to discuss - there is an implied slant in the very name of the forum. Note PDN didn't say non-Christians couldn't contribute. However, if they wanted to argue further there was a better place to do it.

I don't see that PDN stated the OP was a Christian, just that

The OP asked a question of Christians in the Christianity forum.

which seems a fair observation to me.

To be honest, this strikes me just as an extension of whatever greater issue you have with PDN, which is beyond the scope of this Helpdesk.

On this particular occasion, his points seem quite fair to me.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

This short discussion is fairly representative of how a lot of interfaith discussions with PDN go.

Interfaith discussions? While it is interesting to hear an atheist describe their ideology as a faith, let's remember that this was actually an exchange by PM concerning your yellow card for backseat modding.

If your points are better and you are an atheist then you are, in his views a troll.

No, what was trollish is that you can't help bringing your vitriolic dislike for Christianity into a discussion about moderating policy. So I am trying to explain to you the purpose of the forum's Charter while you make comments about everything about Christianity being questionable.

PDN seems to be of the opinion that all threads in which any atheist posts an opinion or a point contrary to a christian is only fine up to the point where the christian feels he is losing the argument, and then its a case of the christian is being attacked.

I think you need to understand that the Christianity forum does not exist for the primary purpose of defending itself against anyone else's attacks or arguments against the faith. We much prefer discussion, whereas you just seem to want a fight - hence your preoccupation with 'winning' and 'losing'.

Secondly, while I understand that you think your own points and arguments are devastatingly convincing, others don't actually share your own opinion of your posts. So your assessment of things happening when a Christian is 'losing' is unfortunately rather skewed.

In your preoccupation with winning some kind of ideological war against Christianity you end up breaching the Charter of the forum. Then you get upset when this is pointed out to you.

PDN made a thread on this very subject and was immediately rebutted on the same, but he wasn't interesting in listening.

The thread in question was a reminder about the forum's Charter. I wanted to reduce the melodrama that ensues every time someone like yourself manages to earn themselves a gentle inthread warning or a yellow card.

I'm not quite sure how you think a moderator's giving of guidelines concerning the Charter can be 'rebutted'. That in itself indicates why you are experiencing problems in the forum.

The so-called 'rebuttals' were generally atheists saying that they don't want the Christianity forum to be moderated according to the terms of that forum's Charter. I, as a Christian, don't expect the Islam forum to change their Charter to suit me, and I am genuinely mystified as to why you think the Christianity Charter should be formulated to suit you.

He is not interested in serious discussion about his religioun if that discussion debates the veracity of any article he believes in. He has repeatedly stifled serious debate because they dont go his way and now, when I question him on this in the above PMs, his response is to call me a troll?

A quick perusal of the forum shows a wide variety of standpoints being discussed with a wide variety of opinions expressed.

There have been threads in the forum that have very robustly rubbished stuff that I believe in as a Pentecostal Christian and an evangelical, and we have debates where posters have argued against the most fundamental aspects of my beliefs (eg the doctrine of the Trinity, the authority of the Bible etc). These were all allowed to run their course with no need for any intervention by moderators.

What does get acted on is when atheists want to use the Christianity forum as a platform for venting their spleen against Christianity, attacking every Christian belief, and hijacking every thread to turn it into a Christian versus atheist fight. This has the unfortunate effect of preventing Christians from discussing their differing views with each other because all their efforts end up in rebutting the attacks. The regular Christian posters, quite understandably, are sick of this.

As we apply the Charter (which was revised a few months ago in cooperation with the Admins to try to cut out the crap) the forum has become a lot less polarised and we are seeing a number of threads where interesting (interesting to those for whom the forum is intended, if not to those who have other agendas) debates are taking place among different varieties of Christians. We have dogmatic Catholics, a la carte Catholics, Anglicans, Evangelicals, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Unitarians, and a few less-rabid Atheists and Agnostics participating in those discussions. I see that as a very positive development in a forum where everything used to be dragged into a train wreck of a fight.

The downside of this appears to be weekly threads in the Helpdesk demanding that I be removed as moderator because I have made clear to someone that the Christianity forum is not a suitable venue for them to launch a Crusade against all things religious.

If you want to express your extreme dislike of Christianity then the Atheism and Agnosticism forum appears to be able to facilitate you. Why do you think we should do the same?

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

Interfaith discussions? While it is interesting to hear an atheist describe their ideology as a faith, let's remember that this was actually an exchange by PM concerning your yellow card for backseat modding.

Which serves as the perfect example of how atheist/christian discussions go under your moderation when you percieve yourself as losing: things start off ok, but eventually resort into you insulting people or trying to intimidate them away with your mod powers.

PDN wrote: »

No, what was trollish is that you can't help bringing your vitriolic dislike for Christianity into a discussion about moderating policy. So I am trying to explain to you the purpose of the forum's Charter while you make comments about everything about Christianity being questionable.

No, you had told me to get over myself and moved on to accuse atheists of hijacking every thread when i needed to explain to you that your ideas aren't above questioning, as the thats the whole point of this forum, to question things. You just constantly fail to keep your vitriolic hatred of atheists from interfering with your moderating duties when discussions you have with them dont go your way.

PDN wrote: »

I think you need to understand that the Christianity forum does not exist for the primary purpose of defending itself against anyone else's attacks or arguments against the faith. We much prefer discussion, whereas you just seem to want a fight - hence your preoccupation with 'winning' and 'losing'.

Strawman: where have I said anything about winning and losing I explained this to you a good while ago, its not about winning or losing, its about finding out who is right, that is the purpose of discussion and debate. I dont care who wins or loses, as if the right answer is uncovered then everybody wins.

PDN wrote: »

Secondly, while I understand that you think your own points and arguments are devastatingly convincing, others don't actually share your own opinion of your posts. So your assessment of things happening when a Christian is 'losing' is unfortunately rather skewed.

Its funny then its only when you run out of arguments that you start throwing your mod powers about, threatening bans or infrindgements for those who all of a sudden (after a few pages debating with you) have been decided as dragging off topic.

PDN wrote: »

In your preoccupation with winning some kind of ideological war against Christianity you end up breaching the Charter of the forum. Then you get upset when this is pointed out to you.

I get annoyed when someone abuses their power accusing me of doing something I haven't done. I have never broken the charter. Being crude, insulting, driving a thread off topic merely serves to avoid discussions, which is counter productive to what I want in my debates: to find out what is right.

PDN wrote: »

The thread in question was a reminder about the forum's Charter. I wanted to reduce the melodrama that ensues every time someone like yourself manages to earn themselves a gentle inthread warning or a yellow card.

And, as was explained in the very first response, we almost only ever seem to get these warnings after a significant time of debating. These warnings seem the last line of defense against threads where you percieve yourself as losing.

PDN wrote: »

I'm not quite sure how you think a moderator's giving of guidelines concerning the Charter can be 'rebutted'. That in itself indicates why you are experiencing problems in the forum.

Why, do you think you are infallible or something? Is that why you didn't even bother to try to respond and just left a thinly veiled insult?

PDN wrote: »

The so-called 'rebuttals' were generally atheists saying that they don't want the Christianity forum to be moderated according to the terms of that forum's Charter. I, as a Christian, don't expect the Islam forum to change their Charter to suit me, and I am genuinely mystified as to why you think the Christianity Charter should be formulated to suit you.

Strawman. The issue is not the forum being moderated according to the charter, the issue is when a mod starts abusing the charter in order to try to stop discussions he doesn't like.

PDN wrote: »

A quick perusal of the forum shows a wide variety of standpoints being discussed with a wide variety of opinions expressed.

There have been threads in the forum that have very robustly rubbished stuff that I believe in as a Pentecostal Christian and an evangelical, and we have debates where posters have argued against the most fundamental aspects of my beliefs (eg the doctrine of the Trinity, the authority of the Bible etc). These were all allowed to run their course with no need for any intervention by moderators.

What does get acted on is when atheists want to use the Christianity forum as a platform for venting their spleen against Christianity, attacking every Christian belief, and hijacking every thread to turn it into a Christian versus atheist fight. This has the unfortunate effect of preventing Christians from discussing their differing views with each other because all their efforts end up in rebutting the attacks. The regular Christian posters, quite understandably, are sick of this.

And would you mind actually giving some examples of these threads that have been hijacked and christians attacked by anyone who posts regularly?

PDN wrote: »

As we apply the Charter (which was revised a few months ago in cooperation with the Admins to try to cut out the crap) the forum has become a lot less polarised and we are seeing a number of threads where interesting (interesting to those for whom the forum is intended, if not to those who have other agendas) debates are taking place among different varieties of Christians. We have dogmatic Catholics, a la carte Catholics, Anglicans, Evangelicals, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Unitarians, and a few less-rabid Atheists and Agnostics participating in those discussions. I see that as a very positive development in a forum where everything used to be dragged into a train wreck of a fight.

What are you talking about? The only train wrecks I remember were the threads where the arguments of some christian posters where refuted entirely, but the christians weren't interested in discussing their points, only proclaming them as true. How many times, in various threads, have I asked you to explain how I was wrong, instead of you just declaring it? The reason why threads like Omniscience and Free Will and the The Stuff Jesus Never Did were so long was because of posters like you not being interested in actually examing if you ideas are true, only in declaring them to be so repeatedly, so that those who disagreed had to keep on responding to the same points again and again until you got sick of your points being shot down and started looking for ways to kill the discussion.

PDN wrote: »

The downside of this appears to be weekly threads in the Helpdesk demanding that I be removed as moderator because I have made clear to someone that the Christianity forum is not a suitable venue for them to launch a Crusade against all things religious.

No, but it is a suitable venue for people to put questions to it, and it should not be a suitable action for a moderator to insult and try to intimidate a poster because that moderator doesn't like that he cannot respond to the question.

PDN wrote: »

If you want to express your extreme dislike of Christianity then the Atheism and Agnosticism forum appears to be able to facilitate you. Why do you think we should do the same?

I dont have an extreme dislike of christianity, I have an extreme dislike to poor reasoning. If I see some reasoning I think is flawed, I will put forward my own. Now, I have done this on the Vegetarian and Vegan forum, the Films Forum, the Television Forum, the Games forum, the Literature forum, the MMA forum, the Self Defence & Martial Arts forum, and others, and yet its only on the christian forum that there seems to be an issue? Now, either the issue is with me, and no other mod has ever noticed it, or the issue is with you and seeing as you have pointed that you have people calling for your removal on a weekly basis, I think its fairly obvious that the issue is with you.

Mark Hamill

BuffyBot wrote: »

Well, first off - you should have taken it straight to PM. It's considered bad form to question moderating decisions on thread, as it just drags the thread off topic.

Fair enough

BuffyBot wrote: »

Saying you don't see "Christians only" in a Christianity Forum is like saying you don't see a leaf on a tree in the middle of summer. The forum is designed as a space for Christians, and interested parties to discuss - there is an implied slant in the very name of the forum. Note PDN didn't say non-Christians couldn't contribute. However, if they wanted to argue further there was a better place to do it.


I don't see that PDN stated the OP was a Christian, just that

The OP asked a question of Christians in the Christianity forum.

which seems a fair observation to me.

To be honest, this strikes me just as an extension of whatever greater issue you have with PDN, which is beyond the scope of this Helpdesk.

On this particular occasion, his points seem quite fair to me.

I was arguing as a hypothetical christian. If I wasn't, then my first and only point would be that god doesn't exist ergo no issue.
Even so, I would have kept the discussion on the warning to PMs if PDN could have refrained from trying to bully and insult me in his on going effort to keep his beliefs from being questioned.

BuffyBot

As I said, I see no evidence of "bullying" or anything similar.

What I do see is a much larger issue you have. If you can't shake that issue off and contribute to that forum in a constructive manner, than I suggest you simply don't go there from now on.

Mark Hamill

BuffyBot wrote: »

As I said, I see no evidence of "bullying" or anything similar.

You dont think being told to "get over myself" or being called a troll, after making serious and thoughtful posts, is bullying? Am I wrong to think that the christian forum should be a place where any one can seriously and respectfully question aspects of christianity they dont understand or agree with? Am I a troll for saying that no idea should be above serious question?

BuffyBot wrote: »

What I do see is a much larger issue you have. If you can't shake that issue off and contribute to that forum in a constructive manner, than I suggest you simply don't go there from now on.

But where have I not been constructive? Every post I make is made with a serious intent, I am interested in any discussion I take part in and desire repsectful debate with a view of finding out which points are true. Unless the purpose of the christian forum is just to reinforce every single christians own beliefs, how am I not being constructive when I question a point that I truely believe is wrong?

BuffyBot

You dont think being told to "get over myself" or being called a troll, after making serious and thoughtful posts, is bullying?

No I don't. And one persons "serious and thoughtful posts" are anothers trolling. In this case I don't believe the attitude you are bringing into that forum is constructive.

You may not like it, but the forum has a specific use. Questioning is fine, but it should be done in a respectful and constructive manner - something you haven't been doing. Hence my suggestion that if you can't keep the social norms of that forum, it may be best not to visit it.

Anyway: to sum up - I see no reason to overrule PDN's desicion in this case.