Bebate on Pat Kenny now about excessive teacher pay here

bridgitt

Pat Kenny has an Irish teacher ( now working in England ) on his show at the moment comparing the much longer hours, the shorter holidays, all the parent meetings out of hours , and the much less pay in England compared to what teachers get here.

Dannyboy83

Podcast here:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_patkenny.xml

bridgitt

The Irish teacher ( Kevin O'Brien I think his name was ) who is now working in England said 1295 hours in UK, versus 735 hours here.

Plus he is expected to do 11 parent/teacher meetings in the evenings in UK - not during the daytime when parents are working.

Pay an extra twenty grand here ; fifty something euro versus thirty something sterling for someone with same qualifications / experience.

Shorter school holidays in UK. For example summer holidays do not start until mid July. After about ten minutes explaining the facts and figures, the Irish teacher in England said teachers in Ireland get paid much more to do much less.

On the other side Pat Kenny had an Irish union person on here who more or less put his hands up and said its true, but educational standards are higher here. Then a debate started about the grind industry here / how many students pay for grinds etc. Interesting.

ardmacha

Education standards are higher here, but the parent/teacher meeting thing is indefensible.

Long Onion

I didn't realise they taught Irish in England.

parsi

bridgitt wrote: »

Pat Kenny has an Irish teacher ( now working in England ) on his show at the moment comparing the much longer hours, the shorter holidays, all the parent meetings out of hours , and the much less pay in England compared to what teachers get here.

Is that you jimmmy ?

bridgitt

Long Onion wrote: »

I didn't realise they taught Irish in England.

Irish teacher means Irish born and educated.

gosplan

bridgitt wrote: »

The Irish teacher ( Kevin O'Brien I think his name was ) who is now working in England said 1295 hours in UK, versus 735 hours here.

Plus he is expected to do 11 parent/teacher meetings in the evenings in UK - not during the daytime when parents are working.

Pay an extra twenty grand here ; fifty something euro versus thirty something sterling for someone with same qualifications / experience.

Shorter school holidays in UK. For example summer holidays do not start until mid July. After about ten minutes explaining the facts and figures, the Irish teacher in England said teachers in Ireland get paid much more to do much less.

On the other side Pat Kenny had an Irish union person on here who more or less put his hands up and said its true, but educational standards are higher here. Then a debate started about the grind industry here / how many students pay for grinds etc. Interesting.

The financial difference is mostly down to the fluctuations in exchange rates. until recently 50 something Euro was 30 something Stirling.

AFAIK the parent teacher meeting is a pay related mess that goes back to the union standards. Cutbacks mean that schools won't pay teachers for evening work, Union rules mean that they can't just do it for free - which seems the obvious option. So, you have parent teacher meetings during the day which inevitibly get far lower attendence.

Mr. Presentable

bridgitt wrote: »

Pay an extra twenty grand here ; fifty something euro versus thirty something sterling for someone with same qualifications / experience.

.

Not the Ireland teachers fault the Sterling currency is so weak. A few years ago the difference would only have been 5k.

Amhran Nua

I think cost of living would be a more important factor than exchange rates. Whats the difference between a UK teacher's salary and the average industrial wage over there?

anonymous_joe

nipplenuts wrote: »

Not the Ireland teachers fault the Sterling currency is so weak. A few years ago the difference would only have been 5k.

If both were on the same salary, teh teacher in England would still be doing far more work for the same money.

Idbatterim

if you just leave aside the pay debate for a second and look at the work aspect, what the tutors is basicly saying is that Irish teachers get away with SFA compared to other countries! that lone forget about the pay for a minute is a bloody joke!

eoinbn

gosplan wrote: »

The financial difference is mostly down to the fluctuations in exchange rates. until recently 50 something Euro was 30 something Stirling.

AFAIK the parent teacher meeting is a pay related mess that goes back to the union standards. Cutbacks mean that schools won't pay teachers for evening work, Union rules mean that they can't just do it for free - which seems the obvious option. So, you have parent teacher meetings during the day which inevitibly get far lower attendence.

And why has the currency tanked? Because the british government is devaluing the pound to make exports more competitive and make it easier to balance the books- i.e just another version of a national paycut.

Heroditas

gosplan wrote: »

The financial difference is mostly down to the fluctuations in exchange rates. until recently 50 something Euro was 30 something Stirling.

Eh no it wasn't. Even when €1 was worth £0.80, €50,000 would have been worth £40,000.
Currency exchange rates do not explain all of the difference.

eoinbn

Heroditas wrote: »

Eh no it wasn't. Even when €1 was worth £0.80, €50,000 would have been worth £40,000.
Currency exchange rates do not explain all of the difference.

It was only a few years ago when a euro was only worth ~£0.65, so they do have a point. However, as I said above, there are reasons why their currency has devalued and it will lead to inflation/higher interest rates.

Long Onion

bridgitt wrote: »

Irish teacher means Irish born and educated.

Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!;)

Heroditas

eoinbn wrote: »

It was only a few years ago when a euro was only worth ~£0.65, so they do have a point. However, as I said above, there are reasons why their currency has devalued and it will lead to inflation/higher interest rates.

Oh I agree regarding the devaluation.
However, for someone to base their argument on exchange rates is overly simplistic.
It's actually startling to look at the devaluation of £ since the beginning of 2007. It took a big fall between June 2007 and March 2008 before levelling off and then finally falling off a cliff last November/December. :eek:

mike kelly

eoinbn wrote: »

And why has the currency tanked? Because the british government is devaluing the pound to make exports more competitive and make it easier to balance the books- i.e just another version of a national paycut.

something no longer available to us

GroundHog

ardmacha wrote: »

Education standards are higher here, but the parent/teacher meeting thing is indefensible.

I'm not actually sure the education standard is higher, it strikes me that the learn by rote system is more prevalent here. I do think that the "highly educated" workforce argument was always a bit of a fallacy, and it was tax etc that drew FDI here.

Too many examples of kids being in their teens before dyslexia etc is diagnosed.

I think we can all remember our own school days, and the good and bad teachers. The fact that irish teachers are promoted by seniority rather than ability, speaks badly for the whole system.:cool:

AlekSmart

I didn't realise they taught Irish in England.

Posted to demonstrate just how "Knowledge Based" Irelands economy really is !!!!!!

ei.sdraob

someone should debate Pat Kenny's excessive pay as well

P. Breathnach

ei.sdraob wrote: »

someone should debate Pat Kenny's excessive pay as well

Not at all. He is in the private sector.

Absurdum

Maybe next week they can "bebate" how electricians in Ireland are paid way more than they are paid in England. Or is that not juicy enough? How about the average earnings of a shoe shiner in Uzbekistan? It's outrageous how we're being ripped off for that here!!!! I'm gonna gather a posse and fix 'em good.

herya

bridgitt wrote: »

The Irish teacher ( Kevin O'Brien I think his name was ) who is now working in England said 1295 hours in UK, versus 735 hours here.

735 hours, that's 91 standard working days in a year. Nice! Especially with grinds on days off.

Hotblack Desiato

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not at all. He is in the private sector.

Wrong. RTE derives a large part of its funding from a tax.

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

Maybe next week they can "bebate" how electricians in Ireland are paid way more than they are paid in England. Or is that not juicy enough? How about the average earnings of a shoe shiner in Uzbekistan?

We / the government exchequer are not employing / paying for 330,000 electricians / shoe shiners out of the public purse, at wages 40% above the EC average. Also, if you do not want to employ an electrician or shoeshiner, you do not have to do so. They can go without work / decent income ( as some are ). You can do the work yourself or get an shoe shine person from another EC country. Unfortunately we have to pay the teachers if they do a good job or not, little and all as they work ( 735 hours was quoted on the radio by the teacher ) , and when they retire we give them a year and a halves salary tax free, and 50% of finishing salary per year.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

We / the government exchequer are not employing / paying for 330,000 electricians / shoe shiners out of the public purse, at wages 40% above the EC average. Also, if you do not want to employ an electrician or shoeshiner, you do not have to do so. They can go without work / decent income ( as some are ). You can do the work yourself or get an shoe shine person from another EC country. Unfortunately we have to pay the teachers if they do a good job or not, little and all as they work ( 735 hours was quoted on the radio by the teacher ) , and when they retire we give them a year and a halves salary tax free, and 50% of finishing salary per year.

welcome back james

jimmmy

thanks irish bob. Good to be back.

population

My sister teaches in the UK and used to teach here and she echoes what the teacher said on Pat Kenny. It is longer hours for less money, though she does not think the hours worked or indeed the pay rates are unfair, but she said when you take the league table/grade inflation debacle into the situation, the kids are worse off, often leaving school with a decent mark in a subject like English and pretty much having a childlike ability to spell/read/write.

jimmmy

population wrote: »

My sister teaches in the UK and used to teach here and she echoes what the teacher said on Pat Kenny.

I think everyone acknowledges that teachers here are underworked and overpaid all right. If we got better value from our teachers then our illiteracy rates may be better ( some claim up to 20% in Ireland cannot read properly ). And we would have some universities in the top league worldwide ( we do not ). And we would produce kids who can work things out / solve problems in a technological age, rather than recite lists in exams. Oh, and we may produce kids who could communicate with our continental friends who are so good to lend us 25 billion per year ( the ECB ). We could beg in german instead of English.

#15

population wrote: »

she said when you take the league table/grade inflation debacle into the situation, the kids are worse off, often leaving school with a decent mark in a subject like English and pretty much having a childlike ability to spell/read/write.

Jimmy, welcome back. I see you forgot to quote all of the above post.

Look at that, English kids are worse off.
Irish teachers do a better job in less time. No wonder we earn more.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Look at that, English kids are worse off.

Worse off when teachers in England spend more time teaching?
You think the Irish educational system is better when up to 20% in Ireland cannot read properly ? And what about " And we would have some universities in the top league worldwide ( we do not ). And we would produce kids who can work things out / solve problems in a technological age, rather than recite lists in exams. Oh, and we may produce kids who could communicate with our continental friends who are so good to lend us 25 billion per year ( the ECB ). We could beg in german instead of English."

#15 wrote: »

Irish teachers do a better job in less time. No wonder we earn more.

The reason you ( assuming you are a teacher in Ireland ) earn more is because of your unions / the government being soft on you to date.

What would you think of having to meet parents on 11 evenings during the year ( not during the day ). Or taking less holidays ?

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

Worse off when teachers in England spend more time teaching?
You think the Irish educational system is better when up to 20% in Ireland cannot read properly ? And what about " And we would have some universities in the top league worldwide ( we do not ). And we would produce kids who can work things out / solve problems in a technological age, rather than recite lists in exams. Oh, and we may produce kids who could communicate with our continental friends who are so good to lend us 25 billion per year ( the ECB ). We could beg in german instead of English."



The reason you ( assuming you are a teacher in Ireland ) earn more is because of your unions / the government being soft on you to date.

What would you think of having to meet parents on 11 evenings during the year ( not during the day ). Or taking less holidays ?

one thing and one thing only dictates how much a public sector worker is paid , how sweet a deal thier union can extract out of goverment , everything else is secondary

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

The reason you ( assuming you are a teacher in Ireland ) earn more is because of your unions / the government being soft on you to date.

What would you think of having to meet parents on 11 evenings during the year ( not during the day ). Or taking less holidays ?

I am a primary teacher, yes. I made that clear previously. What job do you do?

I have no problem meeting parents anytime.
Less holidays are fine if it benefits the kids.
Less holidays are not ok if it is just to satisfy your jealousy.

The rest of my post was a nonsense retort to your own nonsense.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

Worse off when teachers in England spend more time teaching?
?

Yes.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

I am a primary teacher, yes. I made that clear previously. What job do you do?

private sector taxpayer.

#15 wrote: »

I have no problem meeting parents anytime.

good for you. Most of your comrades are not willing to host 11 parent / teacher meetings at no extra pay during the year, unlike the teachers in the UK who do indeed do so.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

You think the Irish educational system is better when up to 20% in Ireland cannot read properly ?

are you gonna provide a source for this or did you make it up like so many of your "facts"?

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

private sector taxpayer.

Thats not a job Jimmy.

What job do you do?

#15

Absurdum wrote: »

are you gonna provide a source for this or did you make it up like so many of your "facts"?

Eddie Hobbs probably said it.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Thats not a job Jimmy.

What job do you do?

I am not required to tell anyone else what job I do beyond that. I never asked anyone what job they did. I remember you before saying you were a teacher, but I did not ask you what your job was. In case you are interested, I am not a journalist or a politician either. I do not have a vested interest in public service pay.

I am not a teacher either, but I have contributed a lot towards teachers pay over the years.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

Worse off when teachers in England spend more time teaching?
You think the Irish educational system is better when up to 20% in Ireland cannot read properly ?

We've a 99% literacy rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate


Source for your claim of 20%?

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

I stand corrected but I think some studies have shown that up to 20% of people have difficulty ready and writing properly (eg anything technical ). As anyone who deals with illiteracy in this country will tell you, many who have difficulty reading / writing will hide this fact. You would be surprised, for example, the number of elderly people who would get others to fill out paperwork etc for them. They will blame their eyesight etc. Sometimes people even get others to fill in cheques.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

I am not required to tell anyone else what job I do beyond that. I never asked anyone what job they did. I remember you before saying you were a teacher, but I did not ask you what your job was. In case you are interested, I am not a journalist or a politician either. I do not have a vested interest in public service pay.

I am not a teacher either, but I have contributed a lot towards teachers pay over the years.

Where then, do you get the qualifications to determine the rate of pay for other workers? You are not qualified to assess such things.

Paying taxes does not mean you are qualified enough.

You are not required to tell anyone what job you do, but it doesn't exactly enhance the credibility of your posts either.

eoinbn

Nodin wrote: »

We've a 99% literacy rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate


Source for your claim of 20%?

If you read the page you would see that it said that countries with a high average income don't collect the data and are assumed to have a 99% literacy rate.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

I stand corrected .

Nothing new there.

jimmmy wrote: »

but I think some studies .

You weren't asked for your thoughts on the matter, you were asked for a source for your claims. If such studies exist, then just link to them. I don't think its an unreasonable request.

jimmmy wrote: »

As (...............)cheques.

O look, anecdotes. Doesn't start off with the usual "I know two people in...." but follows the usual pattern.

mick kk

im begining to get very sick of all the debating at the moment in the media about what everyone earns....a garda in the public sector vs a shop security guard in the private sector... a teacher in UK vs a teacher in Ireland....everyones pay (irregardless of qualifications) in relation to the average industrial pay...

Fact is, anyone who has a job should look for the best pay/conditions they can get.
I know things are very bad at the moment and country is almost broke and we need to improve our competitiveness etc. if we are to have export led growth but people are very jealous at the moment about what everyone else is earning and what their pay and conditions are. We all think we know how easy it is to be a teacher/civil servant/any public sector worker and start slating and criticising what they do. Theres plenty of people in the private sector as well who are scratching there arses all day.

I accept that we will have to take a pay cut as the gov. simply cannot afford to pay us what they used but the private sector are crying out for this at the moment....surely they will be the ones who suffer from this when their public sector customers cut back even further on their spending - surely they see that my pay cut will result in me spending less which will result in them spening less etc.. and on and on it goes.....

I bought a house during the boom around the time bertie ahern told us all to either buy houses or commit suicide. I'm ready for my pay cut...in fact i will gladly take a 30% pay cut if someone will cut my mortgage repayments by 30%.

We are all in this together and the jealousy that everyone is expressing about everyone else is shocking. When my leaving cert students were leaving school to earn more per week painting and decorating during the boom than I was, I was happy for them that they had such great opportunities.

thats my two cent on all this for now

brucefan

We have two universities in Top World 100 Universities - TCD and UCD. Was on news lately!

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results

jimmmy

brucefan wrote: »

We have two universities in Top World 100 Universities - TCD and UCD. Was on news lately!

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results

wow ; trinity at 43 and UCD at 89 . Nothing to be proud of.
Look at the very country whose education posters on this very thread have compared us unfavourably to : the UK. They have 4 universities in the top 5 worldwide. Wonder if it has anything to do with teachers there working nearly 1300 hours per year instead of only 735 here ?
And teachers there holding 11 teacher / parent meeting in the evening during the year etc ? Maybe young teachers here are more concerned about being able to keep up their payments on their holiday home in Croatia ?

parsi

Strange how bridgitt has gone quiet.

#15

jimmmy wrote: »

wow ; trinity at 43 and UCD at 89 . Nothing to be proud of.

Two universities in the top 100 is not bad. Look at the the German universities Jimmy?

Look at the very country whose education posters on this very thread have compared us unfavourably to : the UK. They have 4 universities in the top 5 worldwide. Wonder if it has anything to do with teachers there working nearly 1300 hours per year instead of only 735 here ?

How have teachers got anything to do with university rankings? You do realise the criteria for the rankings?

Here is the criteria, http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/methodology/simple-overview

(See how I can provide links, you might return the favour in other threads)

And teachers there holding 11 teacher / parent meeting in the evening during the year etc ? Maybe young teachers here are more concerned about being able to keep up their payments on their holiday home in Croatia ?

Many young people like myself, in both the private and public sector, are paying off college loans.
But I know no young person who owns a holiday home in Croatia, no matter what job they have.



Do you really think your posts are credible when you spout rubbish like that?

themusicman

Regarding the often quoted English Hours

That number, depite what was said in other posts is the total amount expected and includes the 11 nights when they meet parents, all their marking, setting tests, class preparation, meetings etc.

We are only interested in the class contact hours in this country hence the disparity of the figures(although the Bord Snip Nua report has suggested this should change.)

However a cautionary word. I know teachers who put in many hours outside the 735 on musicals, sports, trips, projects. In fact my own child spent a large part of his Easter Hols in school doing his Junior Cert Projects and the teacher was there, unthanked and castigated by the public but appreciated by his students. If we swing too far to counting hours we could be in trouble(as happened in Scotland where sports were abolished as teachers refused to do them when conditions changed) I know which I would prefer.