Lactate Threshold or Base training now

shaungil

There's a lactate threshold session being held once a week in my club. When it was mooted a few weeks ago it generated and is still generating much discussion about doing it would have lads burnt out by Christmas etc.

My own thoughts are that I get bored doing the long slow stuff and mentally love a good hard blow out once a week. Unfortunately the chances of a proper online debate ended pretty quickly as it gets personal

I guess traditionalists would not agree but funnilly enough one of our full time cyclists agrees we should be doing it but not more than weekly.

What's the thoughts out there

Raam

For those wondering, here is a link to the discussion...

http://pub45.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3833813606&frmid=74&msgid=991140&cmd=show

Lumen

Do you mean training at threshold, or training to raise threshold?

Raam

I think the thrust of the debate is that interval training at this time of year is a waste of time.

lukester

Anything I've read recommends low intensity stuff for this time of year, even, shock horror, taking a few weeks off at some point. There's an article in this week's Cycle Weekly about the importance of proper recovery, and Joe Friel recommends a recovery macro-cycle too.

The odd sprint with mates or on a club spin is fun, but structured interval training right now seems counter-intuitive.

Raam

lukester wrote: »

Anything I've read recommends low intensity stuff for this time of year, even, shock horror, taking a few weeks off at some point. There's an article in this week's Cycle Weekly about the importance of proper recovery, and Joe Friel recommends a recovery macro-cycle too.

The odd sprint with mates or on a club spin is fun, but structured interval training right now seems counter-intuitive.

I'm just back from three weeks off the bike. My commute to work is making me tired. The wind is certainly not helping the cause.

However, the break was recommended to me by some people in the club.

quietobserver

Raam wrote: »

For those wondering, here is a link to the discussion...

http://pub45.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3833813606&frmid=74&msgid=991140&cmd=show

Great Reading RAAM, thanks for posting such a link

it makes me grateful that i stay out of politics in sport

lukester

Just to confuse the issue further, I was reading this site over the summer, some interesting ideas on it:

I've been racin' bikes competitively since 1991 – during that time, I've tried lots of crap when it comes to training and performance. For example, I've used a sledgehammer (25+hrs a week) - I've limited my HR below a certain level "building my base" and laying a foundation for the "hard stuff" to come. I've done 3 wks on 1wk off – 3 days on 1 day off. Macrocycles, microcycles – dun that! I've done vo2's before threshold - threshold before vo2's. I’ve periodized, reverse-periodized, rubbed my lucky charms on a necklace around my neck while chanting... stretched, lifted weights, done high cadence intervals, vo2's in the winter, low cadence intervals, SE, 2x20, 4x20, 6x4 min VO2’s. I've used high tech fuel and energy replacements, lived on beans and rice for a few months, scarfed down toasterettes (too cheap to buy Pop-tarts!) - blah blah blah - lived, breathed, ate bike racin'. In other words, I've tried lots of stuff!


Interestingly, I thought I'd reached my genetic potential as a cat 1 bike racer back in the day when I used all the tried and true methods currently discussed on the internet, or laid out historically in popular books, and in the scientific literature...


Since gettin' a powermeter, radically changing my perspective on what actually drives performance, and thinking critically about a lot of the different, complicated, old and new crap out there in regards to training and performance, I've basically thrown it all out for now and decided to keep things simple. Essentially, I've stripped down my training to the bare bones in an attempt to gain insight on what is truly responsible for my performance. The original thinking in this continual n=1 training experiment, was, that if you strip out all the unnecessary junk, the only thing that one is left with is what actually drives performance. With the stripped down approach, there is no guessing or estimating, or relying on unnecessary assumptions to justify what one “believes” to be responsible for things. When there is only three to five hours of exercise a week, it becomes pretty obvious what is driving performance…



This concept of minimizing training is kind of like the challenge of instrumenting a mechanical system with sensors – one seeks to have a high signal to noise ratio in both cases, since that will mean more conclusive data. In my current particular training style case, I have almost no noise to contaminate the very weak signal that might be produced by any kind of prescribed training.


As a result of my performance paradigm shift (where I’ve decided to focus on “going hard and resting hard”), I’ve re-discovered what I now believe to be the true base of performance and continue to seek out the most efficient ways to build my aerobic engine. Keeping things simple like this, I've gotten myself to a place I've never thought possible in terms of going fast on a bike - and I’ve done it with about 20% of the time I used to invest back in the day when I thought I was going to be a pro bike racer.

scottreynolds

There's nothing wrong with intervals at this time of year but it all depends on your goals. I used intervals last year at this time to increase my base fitness without having to have extra hours on the bike. 20 per week was already enough....


I enjoyed reading that -- here I thought cyclists only didn't like motorists -- it appears they don't like anyone

ROK ON

shaungil wrote: »

Unfortunately the chances of a proper online debate ended pretty quickly as it gets personal

Interesting read, but I didnt quiet see the personal bit. I thought it was a well reasoned and polite debate tbh.

blorg

quietobserver wrote: »

Great Reading RAAM, thanks for posting such a link

it makes me grateful that i stay out of politics in sport

Christ there is some bitchiness in that thread.

shaungil

ROK ON wrote: »

Interesting read, but I didnt quiet see the personal bit. I thought it was a well reasoned and polite debate tbh.

Sorry to dissapoint. I didn't realise Raam would wash our dirty linen in public. Oh the shame.

Anyway any more thoughts? I've been off bike pretty much for 5 weeks since RAI and still amn't mustard to get back on.
Having come to cycling from rugby (4 hrs training plus a game a week) via marathons tri's and Ironman I think I'm pretty open minded to all sorts of training regimes, but I do some times think that cyclists can be maybe not as open minded and are not open to trying something different.

blorg

I tend to continue to cycle hard into the autumn/early winter until I develop an over-use injury. This injury ensures that I get enough rest (rest is important) to come back strong for the next season. Worked last year anyway.

Raam

I started some interval sessions around Christmas of last year leading into January of this year. I carried on with that until March. The program I used was linked to in the Swords thread.

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

I started some interval sessions around Christmas of last year leading into January of this year. I carried on with that until March. The program I used was linked to in the Swords thread.

and you sandbagged won the club league.....

scottreynolds

blorg wrote: »

I tend to continue to cycle hard into the autumn/early winter until I develop an over-use injury. This injury ensures that I get enough rest (rest is important) to come back strong for the next season. Worked last year anyway.

Ignore this -- blorgs rest is cycling 200km a short day and 50,000 kms per annum.

billy.fish

Right, i heard about _that_ thread from another cyclist even before this arrived here, but what and ever. Frankly its a load of twoddle

My take, from a science perspective, working in a physiology lab, and coaching athletes is this.*

Intervals are not bad, once they are used as part of a program that has been designed for an athlete, and not a general cookie cutter program like 90% of clubs use. However as with all training they need to be recovered from.

If we weren't to do intervals over the winter cyclocross would not exist. Why the hell do you think this sport started folks.

The old Irish adage of miles and miles at slow pace over the winter is one of the major reason we have not progressed in real terms in the cycling world.

Sure we get a nice layer of sponge (base training) on then cake of training, but lets all be honest its the icing (anaerobic work, >110% PO at FTP) on the top and the creamy filling (tempo) in the middle that we are going to enjoy the most and is going to give us the best cake at the local bake off (race).

In the real world riding at sponge pace is going to do just that, make you into a sponge. Soft, bland, and not that interesting to ride with.

Anyway, cross session in the park tonight, i think 40mins above LT is called for.

*my take i dont care if you agree with it :P

blorg

@billy- what are the details for the cross session? Where/when?

RobFowl

@Billy stop this reasoned, balanced and informed comment :mad:

This is the internet you know...

RobFowl

blorg wrote: »

@billy- what are the details for the cross session? Where/when?

"Thursday night cross training 7pm at the carpark at the magazine fort..

Focus on speed and how to ride fast for the length of
a cross race.

You'll need lights and an empty stomach."

From the Swords cc forum BTW :rolleyes:

tunney

I hear bonking is very common after these sessions

blorg

I found that very tough, average HR for the bit under an hour we were doing it was 172... Trying to do up and overs in a chain gang through a wet muddy field in the dark was an interesting experience to say the least. I found the whole thing strangely rewarding... when it was over. At the time I was just thinking what the holy fúck am I doing here.

I think I am going to need to practice this one a bit more. I think I suffered a bit too having not gone fast since my last race at the end of August- I have done thousands of km since then but long and slow, a lot of audax and touring, nothing at a race sort of pace. They don't lie when they say cyclocross is a tough sport.

niceonetom

billy.fish wrote: »

Sure we get a nice layer of sponge (base training) on then cake of training, but lets all be honest its the icing (anaerobic work, >110% PO at FTP) on the top and the creamy filling (tempo) in the middle that we are going to enjoy the most and is going to give us the best cake at the local bake off (race).

A brilliant example of how to tailor your point to be best understood by your audience. Well done sir.

More cake analogies people!

@Raam - thanks for posting that winter training program on the swords site (a poor ad for the club though). I might give that regime a go (but not till Dec/Jan maybe). Did you do that on the trainer or on the road? I just can't do intervals properly on the road... though I remember tonto having a bright idea to do 'em on the track in sundrive...

DirkVoodoo

Wait a minute, should one not be engaging in so called "12 week winter training plans" at this stage of the year?

Raam

@Tom: someone else posted the program up there. Tis from the site Caroline posted here yonks ago. I did the training on the road as I don't have a turbo. All interval sessions were done either in the evening on Howth Hill or at lunch time along the Sutton-Clontarf track. In both cases there was no one about so I was free to hammer it is hard as I could

@Dirk: I started my program in December. Right now I'm doing feck all. Won't start back for a few more weeks I reckon.

biker_joe

I will be starting 1st week in Nov, 10-16 hours a week using periodisation,
only base work, you need a base before doing any hard stuff, that's a fact,
there are NO short cuts in Cycling !!
And while loads of poeple, inlcuding those in swords don't agree with me, this works for most serious athletes ! the Base period seems long and is boring but it has to be done, I was only listening to Brian O'Driscoll on Off the Ball the other day and he was saying the great thing about the Irish Rugby season is that they get to fit 8 weeks of base training, He was saying that this ensure that they are well prepared for matches when they come round and helps prevent injury !!
Intervals are fine if folks are riding only one hour a week, or only have a few hours to spare, for the more serious amongst us intervals on top of 10 - 16 hrs of a base is stupidity ! that will cause burn out ....

Biker Joe

Quigs Snr

I missed winter base training last season and went straight to the hard stuff in the middle of June. I eventually did achieve a good level of fitness in a short period of time, nothing major, not race winning form just able to get in a few breaks etc... but it did not last long and I was picking up an unusually high amount of strains and injuries as well as illness, it seemed my immune system was shocked to death and I had a few minor ailments that I just could not shake. The year before that I did a good base in the winter and was able to hold my form for long periods during race season and remain injury free. Needless to say I will be doing plenty of base this winter. I see some inexperienced riders in local clubs here out sprinting against each other during the week at the moment and feel bad for them, a few weeks into race season they will all be blown, going backwards with no motivation. Still, a lesson learned the hard way is the best one to learn.

IM0

Yes you need base in order to support the harder workouts later in the season, but If you have been cycling continiously for a few years then you have already maintained that base for that period, so...you have a base

then you ride some of the winter depending on how hard you went last year, how tired you were at the end of the season (mentally)
If you feel you WANT to go on hammer fests, then go? why not, the key is not overdoing it.

One of two things will happen, you will either improve as you intend or burn out :pac:. Individuals are different.

.2c

Lumen

Taking a purely analytical approach to performance improvement will tend to favour a high-intensity regime, since power is easily measurable and likelihood of injury is not.

I need a crippleometer.

ryan_sherlock

Floyd Landis put it well. I don't do long slow rides, I do long fast rides - that is what races are like.

I love this area and there are a lot of different thoughts on it - most of the cutting edge stuff moves away from long slow miles towards less volumn but more tempo/Sweet spot riding. Personally, unless it is a recovery ride (where I go really slow), long slow miles are useless. My long steady (3-5 hours) rides still have me putting out 270W+ when on the flats.

I'm a big fan of sweet spot training. I do stop high intensity specific intervals in the winter, going out on the MTB and hoofing over a climb gives me more than enough of that in a much more mentally stimulating way. This year, I'm doing cross and that is another world of pushing yourself - great, as long as I keep myself from trying to focus on doing well (this is my 'off-season').

For me, the most important thing for me at this this time of the year is to become mentally fresh - doing what I want, when I feel like it. Anyone for a one hour eye popping cross race this weekend?

billy.fish

Wot Ryan said


@tunney - yes....yes i did bonk on tues after the session, badly, very badly

@blorg - sorry didnt make it out, was still recovering from above , but yeah, cross is probably the hardest thing on 2 wheels

And i will aim to provide more cake based reason in the future.

If you all want to go training in 'ye olde wayes' before the shortage of e's fee free.

Enjoy eating dust.

lukester

Was reading Joe Friel's blog today and noticed this:

Give up on the idea of staying in race shape all winter. Instead, decide when it is you will want to have an excellent level of fitness in the coming season. It will probably take you, at most, something like 24 weeks to achieve such top-end race-readiness again. If you have more than six months until your next A-priority race relax your training regimen for a few weeks.

In fact, let’s not even call what you’ll be doing in the Transition period “training.” Call it “exercise” instead. Training is focused and has a purpose. It’s far too serious for now. On the other hand, exercise is something you do because it feels good while it keeps your bathroom scales under control.

Exercise as much as you want in the off season, only don’t create a plan. Don’t even think ahead. Just do what you feel like doing every day. That includes doing nothing. If you decide to exercise keep it easy. Give your body a break. Don’t be concerned with power, heart rate, or pace. Avoid other athletes who are already training hard. You know the type. They are doing intervals and hard group workouts when it doesn’t count for anything. They’re “Christmas Stars” and won’t be around next spring. They shine brightly now but will fade in the new year.

Just sayin'.

billy.fish

Off you go so.

Might be a general statement but.... don't always believe what you read in one book

ryan_sherlock

lukester wrote: »

Was reading Joe Friel's blog today and noticed this:

Just sayin'.

I would not put forward staying in race shape all year around - mentally and physically way too hard. Just dropping everything for a couple of months, putting on weight and losing a huge amount of general fitness by doing nothing is not really the right thing either (unless you had put yourself into a training hole by the end of the season) - then spending another 2 months getting back into an equivalent aerobic state.

Joe, although really great on many things (I follow his blog/twitter and would love to pick his brains) has also some 'interesting' ideas on other aspects of training. Only drink while you are thirsty, the paleo diet thing and he even admitted to coaching one of his athletes into the ground (despite charging $1,000s per quarter) - all of the above appear on his blog.

My training since I finished my proper racing season has been going for the odd jog, riding my big bouncy bike and doing some CX stuff - only when I want to and not to a schedule (as Joe mentioned, more exercise than anything else). I do that for about a month and then start training with more of a structure but still, if I'm not in the mood, skipping.

billy.fish

Don't lie Ryan...i know your secret ways....

See you in Knocklyon in an hour for the intervals that will surely ruin our season next year.

lukester

From Chris Carmichael's site, a different perspective

Out-of-competition programs should be designed to allow athletes to mentally rejuvenate, while minimizing the loss of physiological adaptations gained during the season that just ended. Detraining is defined as the partial or complete loss of training-induced physiological adaptations due to reducing or stopping training. Detraining is important to understand, as minimizing detraining in the out-of-competition season is important for maintaining adaptations and building upon the previous season's gains. Thus, by preventing dramatic detraining, athletes can build upon training adaptations and become progressively stronger. How do you think the pros become stronger every year? They minimize detraining in the out-of-competition season, relax after a hard season, build upon their weaknesses and come back stronger the following season. This is the basis of organized, periodized training employed by CTS coaches - progression and improvement from year to year.

ryan_sherlock

billy.fish wrote: »

Don't lie Ryan...i know your secret ways....

See you in Knocklyon in an hour for the intervals that will surely ruin our season next year.

I'll be there - but again, it is messing around on a CX bike in a very social setting. Not like training at all

ryan_sherlock

It's funny, I was going to bring Chris's point of view into it too... What would Lance do :P