Average sick in the Irish Civil Service is comparable to other countries

ParkRunner

In anticipation of a further civil service bashing thread:

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1184&CatID=17&StartDate=1+January+2009

Main Findings
The examination found that almost 5% of available working time was lost as a result of sickness absence in 2007, the latest year for which comprehensive data was available. On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days. There was a considerable variation in sick days taken when the pattern of absence by grade, age, gender and work sharing arrangements was analysed. Between departments absence levels varied from 2.4% to 7%.

The examination estimated that the total remuneration cost of Civil Service staff during periods of sickness absence was of the order of €64 million. However, the full cost of sickness absence is likely to be considerably higher when indirect costs are factored in. For instance, it has been estimated in the UK that the true cost of absence is likely to be closer to twice the level of salary costs.

While caution is necessary in making comparisons between jurisdictions the examination found that the average number of days lost in the Irish Civil Service is comparable to that found in similar employments in other countries. For example, in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, the average number of days lost was found to be 12.9 in 2007/08, while in the UK Civil Service it was 9.3 in 2006/07.

The report outlines a set of good practice opportunities which Civil Service departments could deploy to improve their management of sickness absence and promote attendance.

Note, thread title needs slight editing

Diarmuid

EF wrote: »

In anticipation of a further civil service bashing thread:

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1184&CatID=17&StartDate=1+January+2009



Note, thread title needs slight editing

Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?

EDIT: From here

Almost 70% of all sick days were taken by women and the average female worker took almost 14 days sick leave, compared to 8 for the average male employee.

Still no average figure.

The Saint

The Comptroller and Auditor General found that 59% of those employed in the Civil Service in 2007 availed of sick leave and the average total absence was just over 11 days.

From Here

bridgitt

Diarmuid wrote: »

Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?
.

In Rep. of Ireland, " the average number of days taken by Clerical Officers across departments was 16 days. " From Here

spank_inferno

Whether it compares well to other public services its still pretty goddam high!

I've missed 3 days in the last 15 months due to something that had me in hospital.

Does the report clarify how many of those average 11 days were sick days.
vs how many were "hangover" days or "couldnt be bothered" days.

still of course you should get sick days,
But I think a cap of 4 for uncertified absence and mabey 8 for cetrified would be reasonable.

jon1981

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

The Saint

Just for comparison with the private sector:

- Small firms average absenteeism – 6 days.
- Absenteeism from work costs small business €793 million per annum.
- National average is 8 days.
- Small firm average is 6 days.
- Medium firm average is 8 days.
- Large firm average is 10 days.

The national average for absenteeism is 3.5% or 8 working days. For large firms this rises to 4.6% or 10 working days. For small firms the average falls to 2.8% or 6 working days.

Info from the Small Firms Association (2008 est.)

From the Independent 2008 so not sure if people will put much faith in its content:

ALMOST all major public sector employers have higher absenteeism rates than the private sector, an Irish Independent investigation has found.

Of 60 public sector bodies surveyed -- including ministerial departments, county and city councils, the HSE, Fas and RTE -- 47 have higher absenteeism rates than the national average for the private sector.

The average private sector firm loses 3.5pc of its working year to certified and uncertified sick leave.

Linky

Eleven out of 13 Government departments exceed the average for the private sector. A few departments do not surrender to the mysterious ailments that seem to afflict others.

From Here

gazzer

jon1981 wrote: »

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

No it is not an unwritten rule. I have taken 3 sick days in the last 2 years.

cavedave

gazzer

No it is not an unwritten rule. I have taken 3 sick days in the last 2 years.

That is fairly high. Most people I have asked seem to take about about one day every two years.

Actually The Saint has some proper facts and figures so go with those ones.

NewDubliner

jon1981 wrote: »

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

RCIRL

It wont be long until they want a big bubble supplied so they can surround themselves in complete "safety". These folks need to wake up, they have lost touch with reality, just like the Government. Benchmarking led them all to believe they are more special than they really are, your nothing special, just mere mortals like the rest of us.

The Government has realized their mistake and over 450,000 people have accepted it, its about time you accepted it too.

I know somebody in the PS and this person has had pay rise's for the most daft things you will ever hear of and frequently visits, the "time out" room after a heavy nights drinking. Hours are spent by many people in these rooms, sleeping on the job, getting paid to do nothing!

Cop on, take the hit like we all have. The more time you spend whinging, the more time its going to take to get over 450.000 of us back into work. If we dont get back into work soon, you wont even have a job!

Arathorn

Who cares if its comparable, just because other countries are ****e doesn't excuse us from it, especially now the country is broke

Anyone working in the private sector knows this is taking the piss

NewDubliner

Arathorn wrote: »

Who cares if its comparable, just because other countries are ****e doesn't excuse us from it, especially now the country is broke...Anyone working in the private sector knows this is taking the piss

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

We should really be asking why it is so unhealthy to work in the civil service?

imme

RCIRL wrote: »

Benchmarking led them all to believe they are more special than they really are, your nothing special, just mere mortals like the rest of us.

The Government has realized their mistake and over 450,000 people have accepted it, its about time you accepted it too.

I know somebody in the PS and this person has had pay rise's for the most daft things you will ever hear of and frequently visits, the "time out" room after a heavy nights drinking. Hours are spent by many people in these rooms, sleeping on the job, getting paid to do nothing!

Cop on, take the hit like we all have. The more time you spend whinging, the more time its going to take to get over 450.000 of us back into work. If we dont get back into work soon, you wont even have a job!

did you question benchmarking at the time it came about?

I don't think the government has realised their mistakes, they'll make more, that's what governments do.

What did they get pay rises for exactly?

"time-out room", what's this exactly?

ardmacha

A few departments do not surrender to the mysterious ailments that seem to afflict others.

This is the way forward. There is significant variation within PS in performance of all sorts . Identify the best office, the best school, the best local authority etc, find out what they do right there and put the person in charge there in charge of the whole State. Since the best example is already in the PS they have a good grasp of how to do things within the system.

sickpuppy

NewDubliner wrote: »

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

We should really be asking why it is so unhealthy to work in the civil service?

Must be the long hours and impossible targets that need reaching:rolleyes:
My house mate wanted 3 days off last year so he rang his mother to get a sick cert off his family doctor which was got for him.
This is of course wrong but happens none the less.

Klingon Hamlet

Absenteeism is a common ailment in most areas of employment. However most employers would eventually discipline and finally fire repeat offenders. Civil service rarely do if ever.

jon1981

NewDubliner wrote: »

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

so 90% of it was genuine certified sickness...thats interesting then

The Saint

NewDubliner wrote: »

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

But that uncertified sick leave represented 42% of all instances of absence indicating short term leaves of absence as per below:

Although only 9% of days were taken as uncertified or unauthorised leave, these days accounted for over 40% of all instances of sickness absence as shown in Figure 3.4. The average length of each uncertified absence was 1.3 days

Also, over 30% of these uncertified sick days happened to fall on a monday. Not implying anything. Just saying.
Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.

NewDubliner wrote: »

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

Where did you get the info that 90% of sick leave was certified by a private sector doctor? Couldn't find it in the report.

irish_bob

spank_inferno wrote: »

Whether it compares well to other public services its still pretty goddam high!

I've missed 3 days in the last 15 months due to something that had me in hospital.

Does the report clarify how many of those average 11 days were sick days.
vs how many were "hangover" days or "couldnt be bothered" days.

still of course you should get sick days,
But I think a cap of 4 for uncertified absence and mabey 8 for cetrified would be reasonable.

indeed , plenty of engaging in semantics in here to try and excuse the fact that many clerical officers take off a month ( 16 work days ) each year through ( SICKNESS)

it would explain why whenever my brother rings the local dept of agri office , brigid or mary are hardly ever in

imme

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Absenteeism is a common ailment in most areas of employment. However most employers would eventually discipline and finally fire repeat offenders. Civil service rarely do if ever.

what do you mean, like people not turning up at all?

beggars_bush

did they break down the sick leave into certified sick leave, uncertified leave and personal days (baby being born, death in family)??

that might clarify how many days are being taken without an excuse

NewDubliner

The Saint wrote: »

Where did you get the info that 90% of sick leave was certified by a private sector doctor? Couldn't find it in the report.

Normally, you get a cert from your GP, these are normally self-employed.

Medically certified sick leave represents the 90% of sick days taken.

The Saint wrote:

But that uncertified sick leave represented 42% of all instances of absence indicating short term leaves of absence as per below...Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.

Instances, but not the number of days. Technically, the other leave is not 'uncertified', it's self-certified and a signed/written explanation must be given.

Lets get the numbers right? 90% of the sick leave is for genuine medical reasons.

I'd say one possible reason for the medically certified stat being higher than in the private sector would be the length of time it takes to dismiss someone who is too sick to work and has no prospect of returning.

senara

"On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days."

This implies an overall average of 6.49 days

RCIRL

imme wrote: »

did you question benchmarking at the time it came about?

I don't think the government has realised their mistakes, they'll make more, that's what governments do.

What did they get pay rises for exactly?

"time-out room", what's this exactly?

Yes I did question it, as I knew I would'nt work. It works on the simple principle of giving out money for nothing. We all know you can never get money for nothing and now we see the problems its created, its bloated the Governments spending in such a way that they cant cope with it, it has also massaged the PS workers ego, making them out to believe they are special just because of the time served instead of the actual work done/experienced gained.

Its not "they" its a person I know, this person received increases in pay and expenses with out promotion.

The "time out room" is a room you will find in many PS offices/buildings its a room with a bed where a PS employee can take time out from work to lie down should they experience a slight headache, upset stomach or feel in any way poorly while in work, some of these rooms have a doctor or nurse to attend to the poorly employees.

bridgitt

RCIRL wrote: »

The "time out room" is a room you will find in many PS offices/buildings its a room with a bed where a PS employee can take time out from work to lie down should they experience a slight headache, upset stomach or feel in any way poorly while in work, some of these rooms have a doctor or nurse to attend to the poorly employees.

The poor things. Why do they get sick so much? Despite less stress, more holidays and better pay ? 16 days for clerical workers, when clerical workers in the private sector take much less sick leave ? You could excuse the HSE staff for taking 20 days annually ( over a month ) ; well the poor creatures are exposed to more bugs and germs etc . The reason clerical officers in the public service take many more sick days is (a) because almost every doctor will feel they cannot refuse to give one of their customers who requests it a sick cert for a back achc or a bad cold for a few days and (b) its like FAS spending the money - they spent it because it was there to be spent and if they did not use their entitlement one year they may not get it the next. The recent revelations are no suprise to anyone who knows anything about the public sector. We all have siblings, cousins, relations, or friends who work in some part of the public service. Ask any farmer or self-employed person how many sick days they take, or can afford to take, off each year on average;)

dvpower

So its not work related stress thats causing it.

BroomBurner

sickpuppy wrote: »

Must be the long hours and impossible targets that need reaching:rolleyes:
My house mate wanted 3 days off last year so he rang his mother to get a sick cert off his family doctor which was got for him.
This is of course wrong but happens none the less.

Sorry, I don't see the relevance in the emboldened part. That says more about your housemate than their employer. Do you expect every employer, including the PS, to not accept a doctor's cert?

cyclopath2001

dvpower wrote: »

So its not work related stress thats causing it.

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

Staying out of work when ill is a matter of health and safety for the worker and the people he/she works with.

dvpower

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

That's a generous analysis :rolleyes:

mikemac

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

Staying out of work when ill is a matter of health and safety for the worker and the people he/she works with.

If ever there was thread begging for a :rolleyes:

I'd agree staying out of work when sick is a matter for health & safety.
But Monday being the prime day has probably more to do with Sunday being a weekend night out

I don't blame the workers, they'll push to what they get away with. What are the well paid managers doing to allow such high levels of absenteeism?
Or maybe it's low morale or stress. If I was a social welfare office or prison officer taking abuse from "undesirables" every day, I'd be calling in sick now and again too

cyclopath2001

dvpower wrote: »

That's a generous analysis :rolleyes:

One of our more attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our generousity and goodwill towards others. The quality of life that this kind of attitude brings has attracted foreign companies to set up business here.

dvpower

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

One of our more attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our generousity and goodwill towards others. The quality of life that this kind of attitude brings has attracted foreign companies to set up business here.

I could be generous but I'm too sceptical

irish_bob

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

One of our less attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our tollerance of chancers and freeloaders .

fixed that for ya

cyclopath2001

irish_bob wrote: »

fixed that for ya

You mean 'cute hoors'?

evercloserunion

Diarmuid wrote: »

Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?

EDIT: From here

Still no average figure.

See, the problem isn't the public sector. It's WIMMIN! :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

dvpower wrote: »

So its not work related stress thats causing it.

There are 7 days in a week. If you fall sick on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday morning, your sick absence will start on... Monday. So 3/7ths of sick absences can be expected to start on a Monday.

BostonB

The Saint wrote: »

But ...Also, over 30% of these uncertified sick days happened to fall on a monday. Not implying anything. Just saying.
Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.....

Thats strange anywhere I've worked private or public mondays or fridays can't be taken as uncertified. Has to be a certified day. I'd have assumed everywhere else is the same.

johnathan woss

irish_bob wrote: »

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

One of our less attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our tollerance of chancers and freeloaders .

fixed that for ya

bob what's your job, as a matter of interest ?

Do you work ?

cyclopath2001

BostonB wrote: »

Thats strange anywhere I've worked private or public mondays or fridays can't be taken as uncertified. Has to be a certified day. I'd have assumed everywhere else is the same.

Most of the sick leave that is taken (90%) is certified sick leave.

This means that a member of the private sector (a GP) has personally examined the public sector worker and signed a certificate that the person is unfit for work at that time.

Perhaps they should be required to report to Independent Newspapers for a second examination?

irish_bob

johnathan woss wrote: »

bob what's your job, as a matter of interest ?

Do you work ?

i am not working fulltime at the moment , i had a bad accident two years ago , i suffer from chronic pain as a result ( on a lot of medication , have had proceedures to try and relieve pain ) but as i live in rural ireland , i do help out on my brothers farm in anyway i can , doing machinery work , work that doesnt require much physicality , he pays me a decent wage all things considered

ps , i am not drawing disability

jimmmy

ninja900 wrote: »

There are 7 days in a week. If you fall sick on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday morning, your sick absence will start on... Monday. So 3/7ths of sick absences can be expected to start on a Monday.

Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work. So there goes your excuse why so many Mondays get taken off.

Ask how many farmers or self employed people if they get sick on a Saturday , will still be off work on a Monday.;) Some I know have not taken 3 days off in their life, they can not afford to.

BostonB

jimmmy wrote: »

Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work. So there goes your excuse why so many Mondays get taken off.

I didn't get that either. The odds of being sick should be the same for any day. Fact less people should take sick on a monday, as its usually requires a cert, and the cost of a doctors visit, which would deter a lot of people.

jimmmy wrote: »

Ask how many farmers or self employed people if they get sick on a Saturday , will still be off work on a Monday.;) Some I know have not taken 3 days off in their life, they can not afford to.

Thats such a useless and meaningless comparision. Paid sick leave is a perk. Its not a legal entitlement. You don't get in low paid jobs, or doing a paper round, or working in many jobs.

But if you are genuinely sick and unable to work, you are not going to be able to ignore it. Of course you can, and make yourself much sicker. I know someone who did that, got Pneumonia, got hospitalised, got MRSA then died. Other I know of had a hernia, when back working too early ripped all the stitches, ended back in hospital and took twice as long to get over it as it should. Also you might be able to work if you are isolated away from other people, or close to home. Like working on a farm. But it makes no sense to make half your office sick. Or your clients. or be geing sick on a train or bus to work. Whereas if you were working from home you might be able to manage. Thats not to say its not abused, just that it can be valid. Some industries have more sick people than others. If you are sitting on your butt all day instead of out wdoing physical labour, or if your industry has an older age profile, or more families with young kids, theres going to more people sick. Thats just life. However none of that is really the issue. Its just noise distracting from the really arguments. If its being abused then its not being managed properly. But even thats not the issue.

If we can't afford it, then it has to go. But thats going to be a hard sell if you are giving people huge bonuses and golden handshakes.

You either had to get the unions on board, or stand up to them. So far the Govt has not managed either.

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work.

The workers have been medically examined by a doctor, what makes you think you know better? Are you a doctor jimmmy?

marco_polo

senara wrote: »

"On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days."

This implies an overall average of 6.49 days

The report implies otherwise.

marco_polo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Most of the sick leave that is taken (90%) is certified sick leave.

This means that a member of the private sector (a GP) has personally examined the public sector worker and signed a certificate that the person is unfit for work at that time.

Perhaps they should be required to report to Independent Newspapers for a second examination?

Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.

NewDubliner

marco_polo wrote: »

Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.

And that kind of sick leave, say for a heavy cold or minor food poisoning, constitutes less than 10% of all sick leave taken.

evercloserunion

marco_polo wrote: »

Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.

Well given that the statistics say that the average civil servant takes about 11 days sick leave a year, and less than one in ten of those sick days are uncertified, that works out at civil servants taking an average of one uncertified sick day per year.

jimmmy

It does'nt matter when almost no doctors will refuse a client a sick cert for a day or two if they go with a cold / backache or whatever.
Why are over 30% of instances of sick leave on a Monday ?

evercloserunion

jimmmy wrote: »

It does'nt matter when almost no doctors will refuse a client a sick cert for a day or two if they go with a cold / backache or whatever.
Why are over 30% of instances of sick leave on a Monday ?

I imagine because a lot of illnessed which arise at the weekend spill over into Monday.

(Or because the public sector eats babies, whichever one suits yourself)

ei.sdraob

i hear now that sickdays in the HSE are measured in years

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/euro11m-paid-to-hse-staff-on-longterm-sick-leave-1925608.html