Does God know the future?

DeCoR18

OK i'm guessing this may be some rather basic theology to some of you lads here but I'll give it a go

A belief in God is associated with a belief in God's divine knowledge, thus God has knowledge of all future and possible events. God's knowledge of all future events obviously has implications on man's free will.

I have heard an explanation for this before that went along the lines of if you give a toddler the option between eating ice cream or vegatables you know the child will pick the ice cream but the child still has the choice of choosing the vegatables.

This is a pretty satisfactory explanation when looked at in general terms but not imo when looked at in regards to God's commandments in the bible and the concept of sin. Since God obviously never commanded us not to eat ice cream, nor, presumably, can he condemn us for eating it.

However he can condemn us for such things as adultery and murder for example. So if say somebody is in a situation where they have the opportunity to be unfaithful to their partner as God has divine knowledge he knows which people when in the situation will choose to be unfaithful and which people will not as he has divine knowledge.

Does this then not suggest that certain people are inherent sinners and that there is a destiny in there actions as God has knowledge of the actions they will commit during their life and furthermore he has always known which people of will be condemed to hell?

Would you consider a professor who purposefully left the the solutions to an exam on a known cheaters desk and then had the student expelled be considered an ethical professor?

Furthermore is God who knows which of his children will commit acts he has commanded them not to and then condemns them to hell for those acts a good and loving God?

The only solution I can see right now (at 3 in the morning lol) is to accept that God does not have divine knowledge. Does anybody have a consistent explanation to this?

tuxy

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Does anybody have a consistent explanation to this?

Yes, the bible is inconsistent with reality.

chozometroid

tuxy wrote: »

Yes, the bible is inconsistent with reality.

I'm sure your post will be deleted, but I must ask, why post here? Go elsewhere with your heathen derailment!

iddy

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Does this then not suggest that certain people are inherent sinners ****

Furthermore is God who knows which of his children will commit acts he has commanded them not to and then condemns them to hell for those acts a good and loving God?

for what its worth here is my answer.

The bible clearly says in Romans that all people are sinners and can do nothing to make themselves right with God. Left to our own devices and schemes, no one can be good enough to meet Gods standards.

The "rules" God has are as a direct consequence of his character not just a list of things he plucked out of the air. e.g. since God is holy he cannot have sin in his presence and anything short of God's perfection is sin.

God must act in accordance with his character at all times. God is holy, just and loving (just picking 3 there are more) so all 3 must be balanced.

holy means he cant have sin in his presence, just means he cant just turn a blind eye to sin (how would you feel if a judge just ignored a murder charge against somebody appearing in his court).

God knows all this and knows that we cant do anything about it ourselves so he (in the person of Jesus Christ) was born to live a sinless life and to offer himself as a sacrifice to take the punishment we deserve - sin is dealt with, justice is done.

Its up to each of us to decide if we want to accept this or not. imagine you are in court and the judge gives you a choice between a jail term or a fine. you have no money so you are left with the jail term. If somebody offered to pay your fine you would still have to agree to let them pay before the judge could accept it on your behalf. If you refused to accept it you would go to jail even though the offer to pay the fine was made.

Does that make sense?

kelly1

Hello DeCoR18.

DeCoR18 wrote: »

A belief in God is associated with a belief in God's divine knowledge, thus God has knowledge of all future and possible events. God's knowledge of all future events obviously has implications on man's free will.

What implications for us do you have in mind? Are you saying that God's knowledge of the future rules out free will?

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Does this then not suggest that certain people are inherent sinners and that there is a destiny in there actions as God has knowledge of the actions they will commit during their life and furthermore he has always known which people of will be condemed to hell?

We, due to our fallen nature, are prone to sin and suffering etc. Even though we may be tempted, God sees to it that we are never tempted beyond our ability to resist. When we sin, there is always a choice involved, never compulsion. We can always says yes or we can equally say no even though saying no involves a struggle.

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Would you consider a professor who purposefully left the the solutions to an exam on a known cheaters desk and then had the student expelled be considered an ethical professor?

The difference is that the professor was malicious. But when God allows temptation to come our way, it's intented to help us grow spiritually. By resisting temptation, we become better at resisting temptation and therefore grow spiritually. It also please God because we have chosen His will over our own selfish desires. Also when we resist temptations, God will reward us with His grace here and now and when we enter heaven, our reward will be greater.

If there were no temptations, how would be grow spiritually? We wouldn't have to make any choices or any effort to do God's will.

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Furthermore is God who knows which of his children will commit acts he has commanded them not to and then condemns them to hell for those acts a good and loving God?

As I said above, all actual sin involves personal choice to do something contrary to one's conscience or knowingly against God's will. If we choose to sin, we should expect consequences.

God bless,
Noel.

prinz

DeCoR18 wrote: »

A belief in God is associated with a belief in God's divine knowledge, thus God has knowledge of all future and possible events. God's knowledge of all future events obviously has implications on man's free will.

These "implications" may be obvious to you, but they aren't to me. For instance I know if my friend won the lotto he'd have more cash to spend, moreso than if he didn't win. That knowledge has no bearing whatsoever on his free will to play the lotto or not though. See?

Mark Hamill

prinz wrote: »

These "implications" may be obvious to you, but they aren't to me. For instance I know if my friend won the lotto he'd have more cash to spend, moreso than if he didn't win. That knowledge has no bearing whatsoever on his free will to play the lotto or not though. See?

You are not god. You didn't create the physics that control the rolling of the balls in the ball machine, the economics that led up to the owners being able to offer the prize, the oppurtunity for your friend to buy the ticket etc. so no comparison can be made.
God created time when he created the universe, so therefore god cannot be subject to the constraints of time like we are. Another way to think of it is that god is supposedly outside of the universe, therefore he is outside of time, he sees all time simultaneously (and all timeless existence simultaneously too). Without going into the more fundamental implications of this (yet), it means that yes, god knows the future.

prinz

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Without going into the more fundamental implications of this (yet), it means that yes, god knows the future.

Indeed, which is what I am saying. .

The fact that God knows the consequences and outcome of all the millions and billions of possible courses of my future has no bearing on my freewill. For instance God may know what will happen to me on my way home from work, I may be in an accident or I may be fine. God knowing my immediate future has no bearing on whether I cross the road without looking however.

PDN

Moderating Note: The OP asked a question of Christians in the Christianity forum. He is entitled to do that. And Christians should be entitled to give answers.

If other atheists want to argue about this subject, or proclaim their own views, then take it to the A&A forum.

The Christian position is that God is omniscient, and so He can see our futures. We are created as free moral beings, so we are responsible for actions.

DeCoR18

Thanks for the replys everybody:)

Unfortunately I noticed a large thread dealing with this topic on the next page after I made this one.

Ok I realise people disagree with my presumption that God's knowledge of the future effects free will and while I don't completely agree with it I recognise it as a valid point of view and defense of free will.

I also accept that we are all sinners, yes we are all petty sinners but we are not all mortal sinners, committers of adultery and murder etc.

However my main point is basically do people recognise and accept that there is a massive conflict of interest when we are going to be judged by God?

God has given us commandments to live by and will judge people who he always knew would be guilty of breaking the commandments?

Thus there was always a choosen people who would reside in heavan with God and thus the spiritual test which is life is an illusion?

Do people see my point on this? Am I making any illogical assumptions?

prinz

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Do people see my point on this? Am I making any illogical assumptions?

Yes. You are ignoring free will.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

Moderating Note: The OP asked a question of Christians in the Christianity forum. He is entitled to do that. And Christians should be entitled to give answers.

If other atheists want to argue about this subject, or proclaim their own views, then take it to the A&A forum.

The Christian position is that God is omniscient, and so He can see our futures. We are created as free moral beings, so we are responsible for actions.

I did not see "christians only" anywear in the OP, besides the logic of my point exists regardless of wether I am atheist or theist (Infact, my reasoning was based on the assumption of gods existence, so its pointedly non-atheist reasoning).

DeCoR18

prinz wrote: »

Yes. You are ignoring free will.

Ok fair enough.

Do you accept God has always known which people will reside in Heavan with him and which people will be condemned to hell?

Mark Hamill

prinz wrote: »

Indeed, which is what I am saying. .

The fact that God knows the consequences and outcome of all the millions and billions of possible courses of my future has no bearing on my freewill. For instance God may know what will happen to me on my way home from work, I may be in an accident or I may be fine. God knowing my immediate future has no bearing on whether I cross the road without looking however.

Apoligies, only my first paragraph was in relation to your post (it was just an observation that anologies between people knowing what will happen and god knowing what will happen are pointless because the differences between a mortal man and god are so big as to make the analogy meaningless). The second paragraph was a response to the OPs question on wether or not god knows the future.

Mark Hamill

prinz wrote: »

Yes. You are ignoring free will.

You are assuming it. approach the idea without making any decisions on free will at all and see if you can come to the same conclusion.

Panrich

I think I see where the OP is coming from here.

I am born, I live my life making any decisions I want through my free will and eventaully, I die. At this point I am subject to a judgement of my life and my decisions under free will can be reviewed. My life can be played back and all my decisions can be analysed but because these happened in the past they cannot be changed. It is like watching a movie.

However....

God can see this movie before I am even born and therefore all my future decisions that I will inevitably make under free will are already known and my life path pre-determined. In other words God can see my life movie before it happens. He could move to a judgement on that life before I am born.

PDN

Panrich wrote: »

I think I see where the OP is coming from here.

I am born, I live my life making any decisions I want through my free will and eventaully, I die. At this point I am subject to a judgement of my life and my decisions under free will can be reviewed. My life can be played back and all my decisions can be analysed but because these happened in the past they cannot be changed. It is like watching a movie.

However....

God can see this movie before I am even born and therefore all my future decisions that I will inevitably make under free will are already known and my life path pre-determined. In other words God can see my life movie before it happens. He could move to a judgement on that life before I am born.

God could indeed move to a judgement on your life before you are born, because, as you rightly say, He can see the choices that you will make by your free will. The fact that He reserves judgement until after the event is not by necessity but purely by choice.

However it would be wrong to therefore see your life as an illusion (to be fair this was not your point, but DeCoR18's), just as it would be wrong to see your life as an illusion because we can see it after the event. In each case the reality that determines one's perception of your life is the choices that you freely make.

We had one long thread on this already, which turned into a real 'us versus them' timewaster, with one side insisting that there was a contradiction, the other insisting there wasn't a contradiction, and no-one (on either side) producing anything that went any way to convincing anyone except those who already shared their presuppositions.

I, for one, have no intention of wasting my time going through that again.

Slav

Panrich wrote: »

God can see this movie before I am even born and therefore all my future decisions that I will inevitably make under free will are already known and my life path pre-determined. In other words God can see my life movie before it happens. He could move to a judgement on that life before I am born.

I don't think it would be correct to say that God can see the movie before one's birth as in this case you'll be squeezing God into the time dimension. He can see the movie not before or after, He can see it outside of time.

DeCoR18

Panrich wrote: »

He could move to a judgement on that life before I am born.

Exactly great point.

DeCoR18

PDN wrote: »

God could indeed move to a judgement on your life before you are born, because, as you rightly say, He can see the choices that you will make by your free will. The fact that He reserves judgement until after the event is not by necessity but purely by choice.

However it would be wrong to therefore see your life as an illusion (to be fair this was not your point, but DeCoR18's), just as it would be wrong to see your life as an illusion because we can see it after the event. In each case the reality that determines one's perception of your life is the choices that you freely make.

I find that God waits until after you die to condemn you to eternal damnation to be of little condolence to that soul. As the soul at no point in God's mind was ever going anywhere other than hell.

I didn't mean to suggest that all of life is an illusion but I do at this point in time consider the idea of life as some sort of journey of spiritual growth to be false as God always knew which of us would be believers and good people and which would not. Suggesting to me that there are inherent good and evil people.

I find this difficult to reconcile at the moment as I do in fact believe in God and Jesus' sacrifice and ascension. I haven't been convinced by any answer arguing against the pre destination of souls.

DeCoR18

Slav wrote: »

I don't think it would be correct to say that God can see the movie before one's birth as in this case you'll be squeezing God into the time dimension. He can see the movie not before or after, He can see it outside of time.

That has no consequence on a soul which is constrained by time. From the person's perspective God had the ability to judge them before they were born. Thus suggesting their soul was predestined for either heavan or hell.

PDN

DeCoR18 wrote: »

I find that God waits until after you die to condemn you to eternal damnation to be of little condolence to that soul. As the soul at no point in God's mind was ever going anywhere other than hell.

I didn't mean to suggest that all of life is an illusion but I do at this point in time consider the idea of life as some sort of journey of spiritual growth to be false as God always knew which of us would be believers and good people and which would not. Suggesting to me that there are inherent good and evil people.

I find this difficult to reconcile at the moment as I do in fact believe in God and Jesus' sacrifice and ascension. I haven't been convinced by any answer arguing against the pre destination of souls.

Your journey of spiritual growth is not rendered false just because God knows what choices you will make.

Actually, I don't think there are inherent good and evil people. I don't think any of us are good. We are all inherently bad. But we do have the free will to choose to accept or reject an offer of salvation that we don't deserve.

It's hard for us to conceive of eternity - and I think that's why we keep lapsing into 'before' and 'after' language when discussing an eternal God. But, as Slav points out, in God there is no 'before' or 'after'. Everything is 'now' to Him. So He sees your choices, but time and tense are irrelevant.

PDN

DeCoR18 wrote: »

That has no consequence on a soul which is constrained by time. From the person's perspective God had the ability to judge them before they were born. Thus suggesting their soul was predestined for either heavan or hell.

Predestined by their own actions, not by God's knowledge of those actions.

DeCoR18

PDN wrote: »

Your journey of spiritual growth is not rendered false just because God knows what choices you will make.

Actually, I don't think there are inherent good and evil people. I don't think any of us are good. We are all inherently bad. But we do have the free will to choose to accept or reject an offer of salvation that we don't deserve.

It's hard for us to conceive of eternity - and I think that's why we keep lapsing into 'before' and 'after' language when discussing an eternal God. But, as Slav points out, in God there is no 'before' or 'after'. Everything is 'now' to Him. So He sees your choices, but time and tense are irrelevant.

I have to disagree on the first point as it suggests a tendency for certain individuals to be spiritual imo but yeah this could go in circles.

I agree we are all bad, but there are different levels of bad people imo thus some people are better than others.

DeCoR18

PDN wrote: »

Predestined by their own actions, not by God's knowledge of those actions.

I can accept that.

But then the logical question is, would you consider it morally right to grant a soul to an individual who may live for 80 years but then be condemned to hell for eternity?

Would it not be more loving and good to only grant souls which you know will join you in heavan?

To a degree this question isn't answerable because you are not the mind of God and can't speak for God but using human reason the answer is clear.

If basic human reason can answer this easily then surely God can also.

Slav

DeCoR18 wrote: »

But then the logical question is, would you consider it morally right to grant a soul to an individual who may live for 80 years but then be condemned to hell for eternity?

God does not condemn anyone, humans condemn themselves.

Would it not be more loving and good to only grant souls which you know will join you in heavan?

I don't think so as it would restrict free will.

The birth of another human being is the result of decisions and actions of other humans rather then God's. Intervention into this process is restriction if not complete elimination of free will.

DeCoR18

Slav wrote: »

God does not condemn anyone, humans condemn themselves.

I don't think so as it would restrict free will.

The birth of another human being is the result of decisions and actions of other humans rather then God's. Intervention into this process is restriction if not complete elimination of free will.

Fair enough, but God facilitates humans ability to condemn themselves to hell by granting their soul existence.


I don't see how it would restrict free will anymore than granting both people the ability to go to heavan and hell.

Just because there would be nobody who goes to hell doesn't mean that evil would not be an option to choose, its just nobody would choose the option of evil.

PDN

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Fair enough, but God facilitates humans ability to condemn themselves to hell by granting their soul existence.

So non-existence is preferable to the risks of existence.

If we really believed that then the human race would be gone in one generation.

jhegarty

DeCoR18 wrote: »

I can accept that.

But then the logical question is, would you consider it morally right to grant a soul to an individual who may live for 80 years but then be condemned to hell for eternity?

Would God not be denying us of our free will if he dined life based on those grounds ?

DeCoR18

PDN wrote: »

So non-existence is preferable to the risks of existence.

No my point is that by God granting a soul to a person he knows will go to hell there is no risk there, no gamble, there is no thought in God's mind that "oh wow this guy could suprise me and actually make it into heavan" he says "that guy is going straight to hell" because he is all knowing

Or are you talking from the person's perspective of wanting the ability to live with the risk of going to hell? If so thats easy do you think the people currently in hell wishes they were born?.

DeCoR18

jhegarty wrote: »

Would God not be denying us of our free will if he dined life based on those grounds ?

Not imo as the soul would not of had free will before God created it.

The only solution I see to this is that God at the beginning of time created a set amount of souls that will ever exist, say 70 billion. This would of presumably been before evil existed.

But now I'm just making stuff up lol.

PDN

DeCoR18 wrote: »

No my point is that by God granting a soul to a person he knows will go to hell there is no risk there, no gamble, there is no thought in God's mind that "oh wow this guy could suprise me and actually make it into heavan" he says "that guy is going straight to hell" because he is all knowing

To be honest I think you're misunderstanding what it means to be omniscient.

To have a soul is to exist as a person and to have the ability to make choices. God knows everything that is true, not that which is not true. So He knows the choices that each person who exists will make. But if someone does not yet exist, and never is going to exist, then obviously God cannot know anything about this non-existent person.

Therefore it would be reasonable to expect God to deny a soul to somebody on the basis of something that is not true.

Or are you talking from the person's perspective of wanting the ability to live with the risk of going to hell? If so thats easy do you think the people currently in hell wishes they were born?.

I'm sure they will wish they had never been born, but they will recognidse that they are in hell because of their choices - not for any other reason.

Turtwig

I'm seeing a little contradiction here, just hoping someone can clear it up.:)

God doesn't know anything about the person who doesn't exist.
He does, however, know everything about the person who will/was/is exist/existed/exist. So why does He create someone who He knows will make evil choices and causes sufferings to others that He created who make good choices. Why not just leave the evil in non-existence.
Create the person who always freely chooses to be good, if you get what I'm saying.

DeCoR18

PDN wrote: »

To be honest I think you're misunderstanding what it means to be omniscient.

To have a soul is to exist as a person and to have the ability to make choices. God knows everything that is true, not that which is not true. So He knows the choices that each person who exists will make. But if someone does not yet exist, and never is going to exist, then obviously God cannot know anything about this non-existent person.

Therefore it would be reasonable to expect God to deny a soul to somebody on the basis of something that is not true.

I'm sure they will wish they had never been born, but they will recognidse that they are in hell because of their choices - not for any other reason.

I don't think I am, I don't think its a stretch to say that God having infinite knowledge, knowing all possible possibilities would have a difficult time envisaging the future of a soul he could create.

I think there could be a problem in understanding each other here based on the soul, does the soul come into existence at the point of conception or has the soul existed before that point waiting for a vessal so to speak.

Is there any bible verses answering this as I admit I don't know?

I'll look it up.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm seeing a little contradiction here, just hoping someone can clear it up.:)

...................

Create the person who always freely chooses to be good, if you get what I'm saying.

I see the contradiction, but I'm wondering why you are making it?

DeCoR18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

Seems the bible is vague on whether the the soul has always existed or comes into existence at conception.

Plato agrees with me however :cool:

Seems Catholicism my religion does not believe in pre existence of the soul and is most closely associated with mormonism which I don't think I'll be converting to anytime soon lol.

chozometroid

DeCoR18 wrote: »

I don't think I am, I don't think its a stretch to say that God having infinite knowledge, knowing all possible possibilities would have a difficult time envisaging the future of a soul he could create.

I think there could be a problem in understanding each other here based on the soul, does the soul come into existence at the point of conception or has the soul existed before that point waiting for a vessal so to speak.

Is there any bible verses answering this as I admit I don't know?

I'll look it up.

From what I know of how the Bible portrays souls and spirits, a soul is just a living being, like humans and animals. The way you are using soul referring to before we were conceived seems to be referring to our spirit, which I see as being our God-given breath of life.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Psalm 104:29, 30 Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit [breath], they are created.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ... and this mortal must put on immortality.

Fanny Cradock

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Plato agrees with me however :cool:

Plato wasn't Christian

Platonic thought has had more than a little to do with the notion of dualism (something I don't necessarily dismiss totally - I have to clarify my own thoughts on this) and the ultimate destination of all Christians believers being heaven.

The earliest Christians believed in an embodied life after death in an new heaven and a new earth, not souls floating around on clouds in some ethereal dimension known as heaven.

DeCoR18

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm seeing a little contradiction here, just hoping someone can clear it up.:)

God doesn't know anything about the person who doesn't exist.
He does, however, know everything about the person who will/was/is exist/existed/exist. So why does He create someone who He knows will make evil choices and causes sufferings to others that He created who make good choices. Why not just leave the evil in non-existence.
Create the person who always freely chooses to be good, if you get what I'm saying.

My answer to this was that God created a set amount of souls before evil existed and thus when evil came into existence his hands were effectively tied.

What could he do destroy the souls which were inclined towards evil? As an all loving God presumably that would not of been an option.

Which would also suggest to me that the end of days would happen after a time when the last soul has entered a body.

But anyway I'm not sure if I necessarily believe all that but the point of me creating that scenario is to get God off the hook effectively for my perception of him creating and condeming souls which he knows will go to hell even if its through the person's own actions and free will.

DeCoR18

chozometroid wrote: »

From what I know of how the Bible portrays souls and spirits, a soul is just a living being, like humans and animals. The way you are using soul referring to before we were conceived seems to be referring to our spirit, which I see as being our God-given breath of life.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Psalm 104:29, 30 Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit [breath], they are created.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ... and this mortal must put on immortality.

So is it just semantics you are disagreeing with? That I should replace soul with spirit or my arguements aswell?

Overature

Think of it as God knowing every single outcome of every single choice that you make. You get free will in the sense you can do anything at any time, but God knows all the possible outcomes of all the choices that you make.

DeCoR18

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Plato wasn't Christian

Platonic thought has had more than a little to do with the notion of dualism (something I don't necessarily dismiss totally - I have to clarify my own thoughts on this) and the ultimate destination of all Christians believers being heaven.

The earliest Christians believed in an embodied life after death in an new heaven and a new earth, not souls floating around on clouds in some ethereal dimension known as heaven.

Nope but one of the greatest thinkers ever

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

So why does He create someone who He knows will make evil choices and causes sufferings to others that He created who make good choices. Why not just leave the evil in non-existence.
Create the person who always freely chooses to be good, if you get what I'm saying.

Sorry, I don't follow. It seems that free will as we understand it necessarily entails the ability to have the choice to do both good and evil. Creating something that always freely chooses to do X seems like a preprogrammed response - like a creation that always chooses to turn right when presented a "choice". It turns out that it nothing more than the illusion of free will. Besides, if your approach was taken by God none of us would have ever existed to have this debate.

Still, it does open the question about where free will fits into life after death.

DeCoR18

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Sorry, I don't follow. It seems that free will as we understand it necessarily entails the ability to have the choice to do both good and evil. Creating something that always freely chooses to do X seems like a preprogrammed response - like a creation that always chooses to turn right when presented a "choice". It turns out that it nothing more than the illusion of free will. Besides, if your approach was taken by God none of us would have ever existed to have this debate.

Still, it does open the question about where free will fits into life after death.

Wouldn't this opinion take away from Jesus' life as the perfect human being? Was Jesus preprogrammed to be perfect or did he choose it himself? Or was it because Jesus was both man and God that he always freely choose good?

Agreed free will after death is a very interesting thought.

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Sorry, I don't follow. It seems that free will as we understand it necessarily entails the ability to have the choice to do both good and evil. Creating something that always freely chooses to do X seems like a preprogrammed response - like a creation that always chooses to turn right when presented a "choice". It turns out that it nothing more than the illusion of free will. Besides, if your approach was taken by God none of us would have ever existed to have this debate.

Still, it does open the question about where free will fits into life after death.

Diving back into free will again it seems:):p

Em, the point is this.

With our freedom to choose we can choose to be good or we can choose to be evil. Either way, God's knows in advance what we are going to choose and, by my understanding of the way you guys view free will, this has no effect on the individuals free will to choose. However, if this is the case why not simply create the individuals who He knows are going to freely choose to do good anyways?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that doesn't violate your view of free will.

Turtwig

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Wouldn't this opinion take away from Jesus' life as the perfect human being? Was Jesus preprogrammed to be perfect or did he choose it himself? Or was it because Jesus was both man and God that he always freely choose good?.

Note : Non Christian attempting an answer

I remember reading somewhere before that even Jesus made mistakes when He were a kiddo implying that he had inherited imperfect human characteristics and His life left a good instruction to us humans at ways to overcome these. Furthermore, the more human He made Himself the more respectable His act of grace for us becomes.:)

Fanny Cradock

DeCoR18 wrote: »

Wouldn't this opinion take away from Jesus' life as the perfect human being?

I don't see how, certainly not if one was of the opinion that Jesus had the option to chose or reject the cross. Reading the Gospel accounts of the time leading up to the crucifixion, I would think that is the distinct impression given. Other than prophetic passages found in places like Isaiah, which in themselves don't rule out the notion of choice, I'm not sure where one would find biblical support for the notion that Jesus was preprogrammed.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

Diving back into free will again it seems:):p

Em, the point is this.

With our freedom to choose we can choose to be good or we can choose to be evil. Either way, God's knows in advance what we are going to choose and, by my understanding of the way you guys view free will, this has no effect on the individuals free will to choose. However, if this is the case why not simply create the individuals who He knows are going to freely choose to do good anyways?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that doesn't violate your view of free will.

It might not violate my view on free will, but I'm curious to know how many people you suppose always choose to do good?

Malty_T wrote: »

Note : Non Christian attempting an answer

I remember reading somewhere before that even Jesus made mistakes when He were a kiddo implying that he had inherited imperfect human characteristics and His life left a good instruction to us humans at ways to overcome these. Furthermore, the more human He made Himself the more respectable His act of grace for us becomes.:)

What mistakes would these be? I'm sure that Jesus might have inherited imperfect physical characteristics, but it has never been the contention of orthodox Christianity, AFAIK, that Jesus was anything but morally perfect.

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It might not violate my view on free will, but I'm curious to know how many people you suppose always choose to do good?

That kinda misses the point.
I'd imagine though most people here in the society I know personally choose mainly good things over bad

What mistakes would these be? I'm sure that Jesus might have inherited imperfect physical characteristics, but it has never been the contention of orthodox Christianity, AFAIK, that Jesus was anything but morally perfect.

I was hoping to be more specific in my original post however googling "errors of Jesus" and the like is far from productive at obtaining the kind of results* I was looking for.:mad: Basically, from memory, he made some mistakes..unfortunately this is gonna have to wait awhile.
Think about though, if He was perfectly moral, that would have been ridiculously unfair : He became Human to both save us and give us the message of the Kingdom of God. The more human He was the easier it was for us to comprehend him and follow his ways...


*Basically Google mainly brings up the inconsistency in the Bible's presentation of Jesus. And of course His historicity. While both are interesting and definitely worthy of discussion it's not the thing I'm looking for.:(

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

That kinda misses the point.
I'd imagine though most people here in the society I know personally choose mainly good things over bad



I was hoping to be more specific in my original post however googling "errors of Jesus" and the like is far from productive at obtaining the kind of results* I was looking for.:mad: Basically, from memory, he made some mistakes..unfortunately this is gonna have to wait awhile.
Think about though, if He was perfectly moral, that would have been ridiculously unfair : He became Human to both save us and give us the message of the Kingdom of God. The more human He was the easier it was for us to comprehend him and follow his ways...


*Basically Google mainly brings up the inconsistency in the Bible's presentation of Jesus. And of course His historicity. While both are interesting and definitely worthy of discussion it's not the thing I'm looking for.:(

I appreciate your efforts and your sincerity, but it might be easier just to read the first 4 books of the NT, which actually state what Jesus said and did.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

I appreciate your efforts and your sincerity, but it might be easier just to read the first 4 books of the NT, which actually state what Jesus said and did.

Yeah, I'm thinking it may come that:(
Funny how certain things just cannot be found on the net if there are too many jokes or ardent opinions on the topic. Just yesterday I was looking for a simple fact to do with the status of women, impossible to find on the interweb.
Luckily we still have books if the worse comes to the worse. I'm gonna see if I can dig up who wrote the thing about Jesus because I feel it is important.
(Mainly to check to see whether I haven't suffered from confabulation:o)