Accountancy Salaries

donaghs

I've sometimes thought about a change of career into accountancy. A friend of mine qualifying recently at age 30 got me thinking again.

Would anyone have an idea of the current salary expectations for recently qualified Chartered (and Certified) accountants, in the Big 4, and in smaller practices?

Also, What would you expect to earn as a trainee after Prof2 or Prof3?
Thanks!

Liamo08

donaghs wrote: »

I've sometimes thought about a change of career into accountancy. A friend of mine qualifying recently at age 30 got me thinking again.

Would anyone have an idea of the current salary expectations for recently qualified Chartered (and Certified) accountants, in the Big 4, and in smaller practices?

Also, What would you expect to earn as a trainee after Prof2 or Prof3?
Thanks!

Not exactly sure at the minute as a lot of places have taken pay freezes and pay cuts but I would say a rough guide would be something like this:

In a Big 4 new starters (With no exemptions) would be on something around the €25K mark, pass Prof 2 (Cap 1) €3k or €4k pay rise the same again when you pass Prof 3 (Cap 2) bringing you up to say €33k and then a rise up to about €45k when you pass the FAE's and qualify.

twinkletoes06

Sorry guys, unless you are working in a big 4 company in Dublin those estimates are a bit optimistic!! Working in a Big 4 company outside Dublin and have just completed my FAE's and salary is approx €25k and with a pay freeze until Sept 2010 its not looking like I'll be paying the higher rate of tax anytime soon :-)

ucd.1985

Just joined PwC on 3 year contract. Starting on €23,500, but thats with a masters in accounting behind me, which they very kindly paid for.

JD Dublin

Liamo08 is way out of line there, the rates of pay he quotes are what he might have got 2 years ago at the height of the Celtic Tiger. People with FAEs ( i.e. qualified ) in Dublin with specialised audit experience e.g. solicitors accounts were getting €55K, they also had to have a 2.1 business Studies from e.g. UCD and first-time passes in the ICAI / ACCA exams.

Now people with the above qualities and traits are not getting hired into the Big 4 or the medium sized accounting practises - period. People with those traits are barely getting kept on in the Big 4, on their pre-FAE salaries , say €32-35K, and as they say in Cork, glad to get it too.

JD Dublin

UCD 1985 would I be right in saying you have a 2.1 in Business Studies + a Masters in Accounting?

ucd.1985

At least a 2.1 yes.

Innervision

I'm joining a big 4 with a masters soon and starting on €22500

schumacher

The Big 4 salaries have gone down alot due to the recession. Things might get better when the recession ends. I wouldnt let money put you off as if you are good enough you will get the money. The problem is there are a lot of accountants and now in the recession only the very best are gettng what people got years ago.

DJDC

From talking to friends the market for freshly qualified Irish accountants is absolutely decimated. Wages are in freefall, maybe 25% off wages in 2007. In fact theres a lot of similarities with the property collapse where the "bubble intakes" of trainees from 2004-2007 are flooding the market. Interesting times ahead...

crapmanjoe

schumacher wrote: »

The Big 4 salaries have gone down alot due to the recession. Things might get better when the recession ends. I wouldnt let money put you off as if you are good enough you will get the money. The problem is there are a lot of accountants and now in the recession only the very best are gettng what people got years ago.

I'm in big 4 and salaries are gone way down

1st yr 22.5
2nd yr 26.5
3rd yr 31.1
4th yr 42 ( but there own the old wage structure- reckon nxt yr the 4th yrs will go upto mid 35s)

also were no longer getting over time

basically the good days are long gone

pepp

It's far less in the north start on min wage 11K and thats with degree and masters too

schumacher

crapmanjoe wrote: »

I'm in big 4 and salaries are gone way down

1st yr 22.5
2nd yr 26.5
3rd yr 31.1
4th yr 42 ( but there own the old wage structure- reckon nxt yr the 4th yrs will go upto mid 35s)

also were no longer getting over time

basically the good days are long gone

yeah its very bad. I just hope it will recover when the recession ends but im not sure it will as there is so many accountants out there now. this is why I think the aca exams are getting harder. Im only starting out and I dont think il get much of a payrise between now and when Im finished.

prinz

A lot of people still have misconceptions that accountants are on big money. It's often the first reaction I get when I tell people I am an accounting trainee - 'oh you must be well off, and lots of wining and dining on the company etc'.....er no. I'm with a small enough firm and on 21k, after CAP2, been with the company for three years. Unlike the Big4, overtime when needed is expected -no overtime pay, or time in lieu etc. Study leave is an absolute minimum too.

I also know someone who started with a Top10 firm in 2007 on €13k.

Pisco Sour

Dont join accountancy. Its not worth it. Save yourself while you can.

And the high salaries are very much a myth!

mickbyrne

Accountancy is a vocation, not a profession, job satisfaction is great, but you will never get rich counting other peoples money! I still wouldn't change career thought. Started in '97 starting at IR£6,000

prinz

mickbyrne wrote: »

Accountancy is a vocation, not a profession, job satisfaction is great, but you will never get rich counting other peoples money! I still wouldn't change career thought. Started in '97 starting at IR£6,000

Vocation? Job satisfaction Maybe when you're qualified.. but as a trainee - no. I left thoughts like that at the door when I first entered the place.

Pisco Sour

mickbyrne wrote: »

Accountancy is a vocation, not a profession, job satisfaction is great, but you will never get rich counting other peoples money! I still wouldn't change career thought. Started in '97 starting at IR£6,000

Job Satisfaction? What is that??

Fiona44

Im in 2nd yr in a big 4 in Dublin and on 22.8k - only €300 more than 1st yrs in my company with a masters - not very motivating!

ucd.1985

Fiona - do you have a masters?

Fiona44

No I don't have a masters- 2nd year with masters are on 23.8k here as far as I know.

Alyosha

I'm heading into Big 4 tax next year, and am not too woried over the low wages. You have to factor the study leave into things. And the exam fees, which between ICAI and AITI are another 10k or so over three years.

If wages continue as they are I might be a bit frustrated heading into my third year alright....but sure at that stage the finishing line will be in sight...! Hopefully things will have picked up by then though + a newly qualified will be able to pick something decent up.

Pisco Sour

Alyosha wrote: »

I'm heading into Big 4 tax next year, and am not too woried over the low wages. You have to factor the study leave into things. And the exam fees, which between ICAI and AITI are another 10k or so over three years.

If wages continue as they are I might be a bit frustrated heading into my third year alright....but sure at that stage the finishing line will be in sight...! Hopefully things will have picked up by then though + a newly qualified will be able to pick something decent up.

Entering your 3rd year is the equivalent of being 15 miles through a marathon. With 11 miles to go the finishing line is certainly not in sight.

jockey#1

Lads cheer up i am on €22k, qualifed as an ACCA yesterday :mad:

ucd.1985

Fiona44 wrote: »

No I don't have a masters- 2nd year with masters are on 23.8k here as far as I know.

Why are you moaning about what first years with masters are on then?

Fair enough you have 1 year more work experience but they are far closer to being qualified.

They also over the course of their contract will take far fewer days off in the form of study leave.

JD Dublin

Jockey, are you in practise, and if so why the low figure for salary?

Hackysack

ucd.1985 wrote: »

Why are you moaning about what first years with masters are on then?

Fair enough you have 1 year more work experience but they are far closer to being qualified.

They also over the course of their contract will take far fewer days off in the form of study leave.

Personally, I feel that the people with masters have gotten a much easier ride to become 'closer to being qualified'. To become qualified you need to complete 3 years in a training contract as well as your academic requirements. Your academic abilities mean feck all in practice. Second years have more responsibility, will work more hours and be able to actually do the job. The comparison is someone who may not even know a tap about debits and credits (and it's far more likely than you'd think). Basically they won't know how to do a thing, and we've all been in that position, but I can't see why they're being paid practically the same as a second year who can actually do their job. But I suppose they are more 'knowledgable'.

I've spoken to people who've completed a masters and they couldn't name five accountancy standards off the top of their head. Yes they did an extra years work in a masters, and i'm sure they were under pressure, but they essentially took the cop-out option (of not working and studying material that's effectively drilled into you through CAP1 & 2) and they get a higher reward for it.

But props to them for making the better choice. There's no point in being bitter towards them though, that's the system! I just wish I did it myself.

Fiona44

ucd.1985 wrote: »

Why are you moaning about what first years with masters are on then?

Fair enough you have 1 year more work experience but they are far closer to being qualified.
.

Well they still need the 3 years work experience before they are qualified.

I just think the pay structure/pay cuts have not been very well thought out with regards to impact on staff morale.

Those with a years experience are required to take on additional responsibility, coach 1st years and sometimes senior jobs on their own but are being paid pretty much the same as those they are coaching - so doing a more difficult job but getting paid the same.

I think there are issues across all levels regarding how the pay cuts etc have been handled. I'm just highlighting the issues someone at my level might have with it.

Alyosha

04072511 wrote: »

Entering your 3rd year is the equivalent of being 15 miles through a marathon. With 11 miles to go the finishing line is certainly not in sight.

True. All I was trying to say was that the first and second year salaries posted here seem fair enough all things considered; third year salaries maybe a little low at 30k. Only as I'm sure at that stage you have a fair bit of responsibility and are being charged out at higher rates.

It's all relative though. The cost of living has come down a fair bit; practically everything can be got cheaper now than this time last year. There's also far less pressure on people to throw their cash around.

And at the end of the marathon you get a decent training and something that looks good on your CV. Not too bad when you consider the amount of graduates out there looking for work at the minute.

donaghs

Very interesting, thanks for the responses. I suppose if you can get past the initial study and lower wages, and the nature of the work, it does seem to be a better bet salary-wise than other more fickle sectors of the economy.
If someone was to begin as a trainee now, I'd imagine the recession would be over by the time they qualified (although Ireland's govt. could still potentially screw-up our domestic economy for a long time to come).

ucd.1985

Hackysack wrote: »

The comparison is someone who may not even know a tap about debits and credits (and it's far more likely than you'd think).

Ridiculous point – anyone with a pass in Junior Certificate business would know about debits and credits, never mind those with a honours business degree and a masters in accounting.

Hackysack wrote: »

I've spoken to people who've completed a masters and they couldn't name five accountancy standards off the top of their head.

Another ridiculous point – standards are one of the most examined topics over the course of the masters.

Hackysack wrote: »

Yes they did an extra years work in a masters, and i'm sure they were under pressure, but they essentially took the cop-out option.

Can you please explain to me how lectures 5 days a week starting at 8.30 in the morning and dedicating a summer to writing a thesis, and doing all this unpaid, qualifies as taking the “cop-out” option.

schumacher

Thats an interesting point about the masters. I wouldnt worry about the difference in wages while i am in the process of getting qualified but will it affect my future salary that I dont have a masters? i could have done one-I just didnt want to.

jockey#1

JD Dublin wrote: »

Jockey, are you in practise, and if so why the low figure for salary?

Yes i am. The starting salary was very low to begin with and went in dribs and drabs. We only have annual reviews therefore i am looking at a very modest rise if any at all when the time comes!

Boom Boom

Reading this and thought i'd throw in my 2 cents...........
A comparison for ye

9 years experience practice and industy

qualified Accounts technician
qualified tax

part qualified ACCA

UNEMPLOYED

Not unemployed long enough though to qualify for education grant to finish ACCA. On basic JB allowance 204.30 per week equates to an annual salary of 10,623. Not entitled to anything else as i live with my girlfriend so her wage is suppose to make up the short fall in the household income.

So maybe some of you should count your blessings that you still have something to drag your "underpayed" @rses to in the morning

pepp

your getting more on the dole than i'm getting paid for doin long hours and trying to study at weekends your not that badly off! i'm not being rude just pointin it out.

Pisco Sour

Boom Boom wrote: »

Reading this and thought i'd throw in my 2 cents...........
A comparison for ye

9 years experience practice and industy

qualified Accounts technician
qualified tax

part qualified ACCA

UNEMPLOYED

Not unemployed long enough though to qualify for education grant to finish ACCA. On basic JB allowance 204.30 per week equates to an annual salary of 10,623. Not entitled to anything else as i live with my girlfriend so her wage is suppose to make up the short fall in the household income.

So maybe some of you should count your blessings that you still have something to drag your "underpayed" @rses to in the morning

You make some great points. Very well said.

However may I just say that there are always people worse off than all of us. You are worse off than us as you have said, however at the same time there are many people in the world worse off than the unemployed in Ireland (such as people living in Shanty Towns in Calcutta etc).

However this wont stop people who are unemployed moaning about not having a job. Likewise I wont stop complaining about working in accountancy either

Point of this being that everyone is entitled to moan about their own situations if they want

Best of luck with the job hunt. I'm sure something will come along sooner rather than later.

Boom Boom

Dont get me wrong i'm not moaning.........OK well maybe i am a bit

I'm well aware that there are always others worse off. I'm Healty, roof over my head and i am finally utilising my gym membership to fullest extent possible except for weekends i like to undo all the good work.:D:D

All that being said, I would still like to get up in the morning and go to work even if the money was paltry. Trawling through job websites ringing about jobs that are fake is really depressing. Recruitment agencies have this thing of posting jobs that dont exist in order to build their cv database or something. But i'll hold that ranting until tomorrow;)

I understand that for trainees particularly in the big 4 - 10 firms of Ireland that the money is sh!te, some seem to miss the bigger picture.

What you need to be focused on is not the money, (And I know that is very hard when trying to juggle very little) but rather getting qualified as quickly as possible while constantly impressing the hierarchy of these firms as they are the ones that will either keep you or cut you once your contract runs its course. Developing commercial awareness of particular areas that you may be directly involved in. ie you are in audit dept that specialises in the energies industry be aware of changes in legislation for renewable sources, possible grants that a client maybe eligible to apply for but unaware. things like that. if you're name is getting mentioned for all the right reasons you have a better chance of progressing in a big firm and you never see partners or associate directors on boards giving out about thier salaries.

sorry for the long thread

spaceballs

ucd.1985 wrote: »

Ridiculous point – anyone with a pass in Junior Certificate business would know about debits and credits, never mind those with a honours business degree and a masters in accounting.
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I don't think this is actually a ridiculous point, I did a couple of tutorials for a masters course a couple of years ago and was shocked when I realised that very few of them fully understood debits and credits.

When I realised it I asked a very basic question, something like what journal would you post if your stock provision was over stated by €20k, there was silence in the room for a couple of minutes before one person gave me an answer that was wrong . I explained the correct answer to them, going through the whole debit the asset/expense and credit the gain/liability thing that I learned in secondary school, pretty much bringing it down to the very basics, and then asked them to give me the journal to post if a bad debt provision was understated. I just got silence again

I've found that there are a surprisingly large percentage of people with degrees / masters in accountancy that don't fully understand how debits and credits work. There are actually quite a few ACA/ACCAs out there that don't either!

ucd.1985

spaceballs wrote: »

I don't think this is actually a ridiculous point, I did a couple of tutorials for a masters course a couple of years ago and was shocked when I realised that very few of them fully understood debits and credits.

When I realised it I asked a very basic question, something like what journal would you post if your stock provision was over stated by €20k, there was silence in the room for a couple of minutes before one person gave me an answer that was wrong . I explained the correct answer to them, going through the whole debit the asset/expense and credit the gain/liability thing that I learned in secondary school, pretty much bringing it down to the very basics, and then asked them to give me the journal to post if a bad debt provision was understated. I just got silence again

I've found that there are a surprisingly large percentage of people with degrees / masters in accountancy that don't fully understand how debits and credits work. There are actually quite a few ACA/ACCAs out there that don't either!

You will find in lectures and especially in tutorials nowadays people are very reluctant to put up their hand to answer a question.

Not necessarily because they dont know to answer the question but just because they dont want to put themselves out there.

If it was examined (which it is) you would see that the vast majority know about debits and credits. I wouldnt go basing the knowledge of debits and credits of those with masters, on your experience of giving tutorials.

Carb

ucd.1985 wrote: »

You will find in lectures and especially in tutorials nowadays people are very reluctant to put up their hand to answer a question.

Not necessarily because they dont know to answer the question but just because they dont want to put themselves out there.

If it was examined (which it is) you would see that the vast majority know about debits and credits. I wouldnt go basing the knowledge of debits and credits of those with masters, on your experience of giving tutorials.

I would have to say that I've come across many trainee and qualified accountants who struggle with the concept of debits and credits. I've even dealt with audit managers stuttering and stammering through conversations when trying to explain accounting adjustments that they want done.

It's all well and good sitting in classes working through T accounts when doing group consolidations in the later papers, but when you go into a job, the first thing you're put in front of is a computer which by and large removes the requirement to think about both sides of an entry. If you're somebody that struggled with the concept, and many, many people do, it won't be long before you've forgotten what you learned.

prinz

ucd.1985 wrote: »

Ridiculous point

Don't mean to be rude or anything but wait until you have a couple of years work experience behind you. Apparently you just started.

ucd.1985 wrote: »

You will find in lectures and especially in tutorials nowadays people are very reluctant to put up their hand to answer a question..

You are being told first hand here by people who have been working in the area for years. I remember last year sitting in CAP1 next to a guy, who did a degree in accountancy, who was completely lost when it came to income tax. Whereas I wasn't and I have never studied accountancy but work in practice.

ucd.1985

prinz wrote: »

Don't mean to be rude or anything but wait until you have a couple of years work experience behind you. Apparently you just started.

You dont need to have a few years of work behind you to know that it is safe to say that individuals with a masters in accounting are more than capable when it comes to double entry.

twinkletoes06

Sorry but would have to agree with the majority of people on this thread that the majority of people coming out of college haven't a clue of debits and credits!! ucd.1985 you obviously do but I think alot of people hear sound like they are talking from experiences that they have had with trainees - as am I!!

Da GOAT

most havent a clue about double entry - Im a qualified ACA.

betonit

Da GOAT wrote: »

most havent a clue about double entry - Im a qualified ACA.

how is that possible and have a degree

Liamo08

ucd.1985 wrote: »

You dont need to have a few years of work behind you to know that it is safe to say that individuals with a masters in accounting are more than capable when it comes to double entry.

Having worked in one of the Big 4 I can say with certainty that a large amount of people with a Masters don't know their debits and credits. That's not to say that all of them don't or that they haven't done well in Financial Accounting exams in the past but when it comes to applying that knowledge to work they can often struggle. New starters are not the only one's either I've sat in training groups with Senior Managers who haven't been too hot either.

Liamo08

schumacher wrote: »

Thats an interesting point about the masters. I wouldnt worry about the difference in wages while i am in the process of getting qualified but will it affect my future salary that I dont have a masters? i could have done one-I just didnt want to.

Not having a masters won't affect your salary once you're qualified.

spongeman

Ive been in a medium size practice for ten years, and have no interest in going to the big 4. Im happy to come in at nine and leave at 5.
No work on weekends either. Still get the job done though, and I enjoy it.

Ive met loads of qualified people who cannot do the job, its like being a chef, it just comes naturally.

Da GOAT

i can see how they dont know there debits and credits, only recently have the ACA created a mandatory double entry test to address this problem.

only in school did people really go over T accounts, some accountants didnt do accountancy in secondary. T accounts arent focused on during college much either, its all layout P&Ls and BS stuff. Plus thats only one subject of 4 -5 subjects and you can compensate.

Having a masters imo is a waste of time from what I know, I dont have one. A year behind others when it doesnt matter when qualified. Only way I see it as revelant is to join a big 4 in training.

ucd.1985

Da GOAT wrote: »

Having a masters imo is a waste of time from what I know, I dont have one. A year behind others when it doesnt matter when qualified. Only way I see it as revelant is to join a big 4 in training.

One year of study for CAP1, CAP2 and Part 1 AITI exemptions is a waste of time?

Dont be ridiculous.

And in todays recruitment environment you are fair more likely to get hired with a masters over someone with the same college grades. (Not my words, the words of partners in the big 4 who I know).

Liamo08

ucd.1985 wrote: »

And in todays recruitment environment you are fair more likely to get hired with a masters over someone with the same college grades. (Not my words, the words of partners in the big 4 who I know).

Maybe to get a training contract you may be at a slight advantage, but it will make no difference once you are qualified.