Timing belt warranty issues

jmtc8

Purchased a VW Golf 2002 in April this year. Bought in private sale. The car has full service history. Timing belt was changed at 58,000 miles by previous owner at VW dealer in Galway county. Checked with a few different VW dealers before I bought the car to see when the next timing belt change would be due. All told me the interval was every 60,000 miles or 5 years. Now, the mileage on the car is 94,000 and the timing belt has gone and probably done massive damage to the engine. Phoned VW this morning in Dublin who were very unhelpful and told me there is no such thing as a warranty on a timing belt. They say the 60,000 miles is only a recommendation not a warranty and the repair costs are down to myself. So at 40,000 miles the timing belt has broken and done over €1000 of damage to the engine. Can anybody help me with this issue or had any experience of this before? Why are the VW dealers giving out the information that an engine is ok under the 60,000 miles. If this is the case, how many more motorists are driving around with a big expensive disaster waiting to happen. And I suppose this might serve as a warning to other motorists as well. At least I might be able to prevent somebody else from getting stung like I have. If I knew the timing belt was not warrantied then of course I would have had it replaced to prevent this happening.

niceirishfella

Firstly, sorry for your hassles.

I'm going to be straight with you. You're on your own on this - the belt used by the mechanic the last time might not be a gates belt (the worlds best and sometimes only ever used by some installers) and may have been a cheaper brand that could have delivered the premature failure. However,these service intervals are guidelines given by garages and manufacturers. If the car was in warranty from new from the main dealer, you'd have a claim, but not now.
Rule of thumb for future - buy a car with a timing chain or a non interferance engine (if belt snaps,no damage interally)

jmtc8

Hi
Thanks for your reply. The belt was fitted by a VW main dealer in county Galway but don't know exactly which type it was. I just think that the dealers shouldn't continue to tell customers that the belt is warrantied up to 60,000 miles. I was told this again on Saturday just gone by another VW dealer. Told me it would be no problem as the belt was within warranty under 60,000 miles which of course I now know not to be true. Thanks for the recommendation not to buy cars with timing belts. Unfortunately the car belongs to our son who is only 19 years old and reliant on this car. And as we took the advice from the main dealers we thought it would be ok. Next time, no VW Golf cars. Never again. This time though we will have to look at having it repaired as there is no other option at this time. No point spending the money on having a main dealer repair it is there? Cos if there is no warranty to be affected then why pay much more just because of a VW badge that isn't worth anything. Would rather give the money to a local small garage. Thanks again niceirishfella

TheDriver

I must disagree, if it was changed at a VW dealer, then the parts would have to be VW parts and hence it has been serviced to their standards and should have some comeback at this stage. I would ask again and maybe try some other VW garages as some just don't want to know you while others will be glad to take your case on board because they will get your business. I would say personally, I would expect VW to cover it as it is their part and their service and hence their problem. Do you have the service history in writing?

niceirishfella

TheDriver wrote: »

I must disagree, if it was changed at a VW dealer, then the parts would have to be VW parts and hence it has been serviced to their standards and should have some comeback at this stage. I would ask again and maybe try some other VW garages as some just don't want to know you while others will be glad to take your case on board because they will get your business. I would say personally, I would expect VW to cover it as it is their part and their service and hence their problem. Do you have the service history in writing?

Driver, I hope you're right, but I doubt they'll entertain standing over a car thats 2002 and work they did 36k ago in it. Ohhhhh, and I worked in the trade, OEM parts are often NOT used to create more margin.
Welcome to the real world.
OP, it may be more economical to get a new unit for the golf- try www.traynors.co.uk for one.

jmtc8

Hi The driver
Yes, the belt was fitted by a main VW dealer. And we do have the service history in writing right back to the day it was first bought. I too would have thought that we had some comeback on the work done as the recommendation (now I know it is not worth a cent) was 60,000 miles. The receipt for the timing belt disappeared from the service book while in the garage!!!!!!!!! It was in the service book the night before. The date and garage stamp of the timing belt change is stamped in the service book though. I couldn't believe how unhelpful VW were this morning. Just basically told me that there is no such thing as a warranty on the timing belt outside of the 2 year warranty provided at first purchase. So disappointed and resolved that as soon as possible we will not be touching anything to do with VW ever again. But as I said in the previous post, the car belongs to our 19 year old son who has just paid out €1500 registration fee to a college and cannot afford to change this car at the moment. Probably only option at the moment is to find the cheapest quote to rebuild or repair the engine. Thats one customer VW have lost for life anyway.

Welease

Sadly I don't think you will get the resolution you want on this one.. The 60K is an estimate of how long it should last, not a guarantee or a warranty. The previous garage replaced it as requested, and having done 40K miles on it, it doesnt appear to have been defective.

In essence it is a perishable item on the car, and if it had been inspected in the last 5K or so miles (or inspected regularily) that fact it was about to fail would probably have been obvious. It's your responsibility to do the checks, not volkswagons.. and in essence it's no different than letting your car run out of engine oil or water.

It's a tough lesson, and an expensive one at that, but I don't see that vw can be held accountable (although it sounds like they could have been more helpful on the phone). As the car is also second hand, you may also find you really don't have any comeback anyway with VW, my understanding is that your statutory rights regarding warranties do not transfer when purchasing items second hand.. It is essentially buyer beware..

jmtc8

Hi Welease
Thanks for your reply. Although I don't know much about cars, we were told that it is not possible to check the timing belt on the VW Golf as too much of the engine has to be taken out to do it. This is why most people rely on the recommended mileage. And as soon as the car gets near this mileage then they have the belt changed. At what point is the motorist supposed to get it changed if there is warranty at all. Definitely agree with one of the other posters who advised to stay away from cars with timing belts. I would like other consumers to know this and what can possibly happen if you rely on the recommended mileage advice given by the dealers. They don't want to know when something goes wrong.

craichoe

jmtc8 wrote: »

Hi Welease
Thanks for your reply. Although I don't know much about cars, we were told that it is not possible to check the timing belt on the VW Golf as too much of the engine has to be taken out to do it. This is why most people rely on the recommended mileage. And as soon as the car gets near this mileage then they have the belt changed. At what point is the motorist supposed to get it changed if there is warranty at all. Definitely agree with one of the other posters who advised to stay away from cars with timing belts. I would like other consumers to know this and what can possibly happen if you rely on the recommended mileage advice given by the dealers. They don't want to know when something goes wrong.

Its possible they didnt replace the tensioners/pulleys, OP, i'd get it checked out by an independant to find out the root cause.

AFAIK Timing chains are just as bad, i.e. the lubrication device can fail and the timing chain can snap.

jmtc8

Thanks Craichoe. Going to have an independent assessment done I think. Have my suspicions as to why the receipt went missing from the car while left with the garage. Of course it could have been blown away by a gust of wind that somehow got in to the glove compartment!!!!!!! The breakdown that came out used a diagnostic kit that showed the engine ignition sensor was faulty. But all appeared to be ok with the timing belt at that point.

TheDriver

the real world would be one where you can look into your engine bay and inspect your timing belt which is somethig I cannot do or trained to do. Hence it is a garage's job to check it at each service and inform the customer if its about to go. Thats of course if the OP serviced it at a VW garage, VW's response is terrible though its not the first timing belt on that model golf to go, i had 2 friends who had similar probs but caught in time, one was just in for a service when it started to go while being drivin into the garage by mechanic!

jmtc8

Have just spoken to another VW dealer. They have said that they will put in a request to VW to see if they will help. Maybe a bit more forthcoming if the request comes from one of their own.

dudara

Better suited to the Motors forum. You'll probably get more help there.

dudara

nogoodnamesleft

If the belt was renewed at the main dealer they should have furnished the owner of the vehicle with an invoice for service carried out on the vehicle including what parts would have been replaced.

Its possible that they might have have just replaced the belt rather then the belt, tensioners and water pump.

jmtc8

How do I move it to the motors forum?

jmtc8

We did have the invoice/receipt for the job carried out. However, when the car was left with a garage on Saturday last to be checked out the receipt disappeared from the service book which was in the glove compartment. The garage on Saturday was also the garage which carried out the timing belt work in 2006.

EPM

How long ago was the second timing belt fitted to the car? The rubber can perish over time. Also, it's part of the service schedule to check replacement belts at regular intervals

EDIT - Just saw your post. You probably wont have any comeback on a job done 3 years ago. Most parts are given a years warranty from a dealer in fairness. I was given this on the belt I had replaced lately.

jmtc8

The belt was fitted in October 2006 when the car had 58,000 miles up.

Drummerboy08

You'll just have to take the hit on this one.

VW have no obligation at all to replace this, or carry out the work for free. They would have covered it for a year, and after that its up to you.

Fair is fair, I would imagine that if this happened within that year, you would be ok.

jetfiremuck

Sorry about the timing belt issue, though most small engines are using them now, however the timing belt and material may be ok i.e the water pump or tensioners could have failed as these are driven by the belt also. Consider that the previous owner may have been to cheap and decided not want to spend the extra on a water pump and tensioner kit while the belt was being done. I know of vw both petrol and diesel engines with over 100k driven hard on the original belt, taking a chance no doubt. While you can argue over how the belt broke generally repair warranty is noted on the invoice or posted in the garage.

BrianD3

See this old thread about how Ford dealt with a belt breakage before the recommended change interval.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054901570

jmtc8

Wish it was a Ford that the belt had broken on after reading this. Well done ford. Thanks previous poster for this link.

Welease

jmtc8 wrote: »

The belt was fitted in October 2006 when the car had 58,000 miles up.

But, and this is a BIG but, that was by the previous owner..

As I said in my previous post, from my understanding warranty does NOT transfer from the previous owner regardless of when it was done (unless a specific warranty transfer was done with the manufacturer, which it wasnt). So in essence, you have no warranty or comeback over anything in/on that car. Consumer legislation also does not protect against private sales If the car was from a registered dealer you would have some form of protection.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I would hate to see you spend the extra cash with an assesor only to find you don't have any legal comeback irrespective of their findings. Please check this out before you waste more cash.. Best of luck with VW though, hopefully they can help out.

jor el

Welease wrote: »

As I said in my previous post, from my understanding warranty does NOT transfer from the previous owner regardless of when it was done (unless a specific warranty transfer was done with the manufacturer, which it wasnt). So in essence, you have no warranty or comeback over anything in/on that car.

Statutory rights do not transfer, but a warranty might. However, VW would probably have only warranted the last belt for 12 months, so that's gone anyway.

I guess the wear on a timing belt would be dependent on the driving style. If you rev the engine high all the time, then it may not last as long. It'd be up to the owner to get it checked regularly, and to have an initial check done after buying a new pre-owned car. You'd have no idea what kind of driving style was used by the previous owner, or if the clock mileage is even genuine.

Kartale

@OP
Who have you had servicing the car since you purchased it?
Perhaps you should start with them & ask did they check water pump for leaking or listen for noises from the pulley's etc.
No point blaming someone who looked at a car 4 years ago.
I thought VW were replacing timing belt/tensioners etc @ 30-40k now cause of tensioners breaking

Scouserfan

Part of the service schedule for all vw brands include checking condition of toothed belt, ie every service (except lubrication service). VW will argue that if vehicle was serviced by main dealer then this would have been spotted.
If it has been serviced to manufacturer's specification at an approved dealer I would take this up with the dealers who have serviced it.

Greenman

jmtc8 wrote: »

Hi The driver
So disappointed and resolved that as soon as possible we will not be touching anything to do with VW ever again.

Not sure of VW Belgium but I found the VW main dealer in the Dublin 18 area rubbish to deal with. It was at the beginning of the Celtic Tiger, my father a penioner had bought a new golf, it had a few teething probs etc the doors locked on their own plus the rear wiper fluid pump didn't work. They could not be have been more unhelpful. They seem to think they were doing you a big favour.

Nonoperational

Its a lousy situation but legally you don't have a leg to stand on. The only thing you can hope for is a goodwill jesture from VW but from what you say that sounds unlikely. Now that the receipt is "missing" its going to be almost impossible to get anything. I wonder is is a sign of the tough times Im sure if this was a few years ago they would have contributed something.

snowman707

OP you have a PM

craichoe

TheDriver wrote: »

the real world would be one where you can look into your engine bay and inspect your timing belt which is somethig I cannot do or trained to do. Hence it is a garage's job to check it at each service and inform the customer if its about to go. Thats of course if the OP serviced it at a VW garage, VW's response is terrible though its not the first timing belt on that model golf to go, i had 2 friends who had similar probs but caught in time, one was just in for a service when it started to go while being drivin into the garage by mechanic!

Don't know what engine it was but on the 1.9TDI (AGR) Engine its nigh on impossible to inspect it without alot of work.

jmtc8

The engine is a 1.4 petrol and has always been serviced by a VW main dealer.
Does anybody have any thoughts on fitting a timing belt and praying before trying to see if the car will start? Or it almost definite that there will be alot of damage done?

Grennman, your experience must have been with the same person as I spoke to in VW, Dublin. She was so unhelpful and defensive. Just spoke to me like I should have known there is no warranty on timing belts. No suggestions or anything else. She must have been all of 30 seconds on the phone to me.

niceirishfella

jmtc8 wrote: »

The engine is a 1.4 petrol and has always been serviced by a VW main dealer.
Does anybody have any thoughts on fitting a timing belt and praying before trying to see if the car will start? Or it almost definite that there will be alot of damage done?

Depends on the engine.....

OldmanMondeo

niceirishfella wrote: »

not be a gates belt (the worlds best and sometimes only ever used by some installers)

But are not OE on VAG, Contuitech is I believe.

OP, you could ask the delaers to get hte kit returned to manfacture for inspection to see if the kit was faulty. TBH not much chance of getting any come back.

jetfiremuck

You could try and put a belt on remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over by hand. If it doesn't turn over then it's a head off. Younmay have a bent valve or two. Depends also on whether the engine was idling or driving down the road. May be cheaper to get an exchange head. As you own the car to me makes no sense to trade. Find out what caused the break, ie maybe water pump or tensioner. The belt may have bben put on too tight when it was done.

jmtc8

The car was stationery when the problem became apparent. Had just got out of car to go to ATM, got back in and then the car wouldn't start. However, when the breakdown came, after checking the receipt and seeing that there was only 36,000 since last timing belt change and checking that something or another was turning, they decided the timing belt couldn't be the problem and tried to jumpstart the car. So this probably caused a whole load of damage.
Think now we will have an assessor look at the engine as so many people have said that it is very surprising that the belt broke at this mileage. The mileage is genuine as there is a service history for the entire life of the car. Each time showing the current mileage.

Nonoperational

Its surprising it went at such a small mileage but by no means unheard of. These things do happen.

OldmanMondeo

jmtc8 wrote: »

The car was stationery when the problem became apparent. Had just got out of car to go to ATM, got back in and then the car wouldn't start. However, when the breakdown came, after checking the receipt and seeing that there was only 36,000 since last timing belt change and checking that something or another was turning, they decided the timing belt couldn't be the problem and tried to jumpstart the car. So this probably caused a whole load of damage.
Think now we will have an assessor look at the engine as so many people have said that it is very surprising that the belt broke at this mileage. The mileage is genuine as there is a service history for the entire life of the car. Each time showing the current mileage.

I have heard of belts going with less milage on them and not being covered by manufacture. There are a few reasons as to why the belt failed. Where all tensioners replaced at the same time, ie a Timing Belt KIT and not just the belt. Was tension correct? Was the belt faulty, hard to prove if the belt itself has snapped. If a tensioner has failed this can be inspected and verified if due to poor built quality or not. There was a recall on a number of gates T/B kits due to faulty tensioners, This may be the case, recall may have been missed by the dealer. If so the dealer might be responsible as they never carried out te recall.

niceirishfella

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

But are not OE on VAG, Contuitech is I believe.

I did'nt say Gates were OEM for VAG cars.
Some mechanics will not fit nothing else.
I'd like to know what was fitted to that Golf all the same just out of interest.

OldmanMondeo

niceirishfella wrote: »

I did'nt say Gates were OEM for VAG cars.
Some mechanics will not fit nothing else.
I'd like to know what was fitted to that Golf all the same just out of interest.

Totally agree, as you say Gates are the best around, I should know I sell them...:rolleyes: Most we sell are put into VAG's. For some reason VAG are the biggest sellers for us on T/Belts kits and DMF... Makes you think.

mickdw

Seeing as you have a cast iron history from vw garages, you should put a bit of pressure on. If that garage took out the receipt for timing belt work, then tey are guilty of having taken a short cut im afraid. OP should go to garage and ask them to confirm in writing from there records that the Belt was replaced at such a date etc and that everything was renewed as per manufacturers recommendations. If they are unwilling to do this, well you will then know that they are chancers. Also the breakdown guy witnessed the receipt for all works carried out on the belt. Tell the garage that if they start to get smart saying you have no proof of having the belt done or say that there is no record of it on their system.
A genuine garage would say yes we did everything properly at the time and would investigate to see if it was some other factor such as an oil leak or whatever that caused the failure. this is always a possibility. If no reasonable explaination found and given your complete vw history, they could make a call to vw asking for some contribution. Even if unsuccesful, you would think more of them that you do now based on the treatment you got from them

meathstevie

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Totally agree, as you say Gates are the best around, I should know I sell them...:rolleyes: Most we sell are put into VAG's. For some reason VAG are the biggest sellers for us on T/Belts kits and DMF... Makes you think.

Maybe because VW, Audi's, Seats and Skodas which are all popular cars all use the same stuff and a lot of people have that sort of expensive maintenance done by independents supplying parts themselves rather than fork out half a grand and more at a main dealer once the car is out of warranty.

jmtc8

Just waiting to hear from VW as to whether they will help or not. Then taking the car to have assessment done on the engine to see if they can figure out why the timing belt broke and were all parts replaced at 58,000 miles as stated by the VW dealer who carried out the work. Will post the type of belt used here as soon we know. Very pissed off now as to why the receipt was taken from the service book. This receipt itemised everything that was supposed to be carried out in the timing belt replacement. Receipt was seen by at least 3 people that night. Am contacting the previous owner as well to have him confirm what work was done while he had the car.

Moanin

jmtc8 wrote: »

Just waiting to hear from VW as to whether they will help or not. Then taking the car to have assessment done on the engine to see if they can figure out why the timing belt broke and were all parts replaced at 58,000 miles as stated by the VW dealer who carried out the work. Will post the type of belt used here as soon we know. Very pissed off now as to why the receipt was taken from the service book. This receipt itemised everything that was supposed to be carried out in the timing belt replacement. Receipt was seen by at least 3 people that night. Am contacting the previous owner as well to have him confirm what work was done while he had the car.

I presume the dealer or VW should be able to get a copy of the receipt for the job from their system by simply putting the reg number into it?

jmtc8

I don't know as the dealer will just not co-operate and is saying it irrelevant as there is no warranty on the belt in the first place.

CJhaughey

Thats pretty bad form to remove the receipt, in fact I would go so far as to say that it is theft. In case things get more sour you could inform the Gardai that there has been something of value removed from your vehicle while it was in the possession of the Dealer.
I am not sure why the dealer thought it would be a good idea to take the receipt unless they have something to hide such as the work being billed for but never carried out?
Maybe this should be dug deeper.

jmtc8

Yes. We did involve the Gardai on Saturday morning as soon as we realised the receipt was missing. But even though they were very good and came up to the garage they did inform us that it is a civil matter and our best bet would be to contact our solicitor. So as soon as we have the assessors report we will be doing this. Just trying to keep all costs down at the moment as I know we are going to end up paying out a lot to repair this car for our son.

Welease

Welease wrote: »

In essence it is a perishable item on the car, and if it had been inspected in the last 5K or so miles (or inspected regularily) that fact it was about to fail would probably have been obvious. It's your responsibility to do the checks, not volkswagons.. and in essence it's no different than letting your car run out of engine oil or water.

Inspection for a timing belt ? How does that work

OP, sorry to hear about the misfortune but there is no point persuing this matter, they are not liable, end of story.

Welease

RoverJames wrote: »

Inspection for a timing belt ? How does that work

OP, sorry to hear about the misfortune but there is no point persuing this matter, they are not liable, end of story.

Probably in exactly the same manner a mechanic would inspect/assess it.

But that wasn't the essence of my post.. my post was to point out that VW are most likely not liable for a belt with no warranty that was replaced for another customer (with no warranty transfer) over 36K miles ago.
People can continue to argue whether and how long the belt should last and what parts should have been replaced, but my understand is and still is that (and I happy to be corrected ) that the OP doesn't have a legal leg to stand as they have never had any warranty on that car irrespective or receipts, work done etc.
It sucks, but that's my understanding of the law on private sales of cars.

niceirishfella

Welease wrote: »

Probably in exactly the same manner a mechanic would inspect/assess it.

But that wasn't the essence of my post.. my post was to point out that VW are most likely not liable for a belt with no warranty that was replaced for another customer (with no warranty transfer) over 36K miles ago.
People can continue to argue whether and how long the belt should last and what parts should have been replaced, but my understand is and still is that (and I happy to be corrected ) that the OP doesn't have a legal leg to stand as they have never had any warranty on that car irrespective or receipts, work done etc.
It sucks, but that's my understanding of the law on private sales of cars.

I tend to agree. Only goodwill from that VW garage that did the TB service will remedy this matter.

jmtc8

Welease wrote: »

Probably in exactly the same manner a mechanic would inspect/assess it.

But that wasn't the essence of my post.. my post was to point out that VW are most likely not liable for a belt with no warranty that was replaced for another customer (with no warranty transfer) over 36K miles ago.
People can continue to argue whether and how long the belt should last and what parts should have been replaced, but my understand is and still is that (and I happy to be corrected ) that the OP doesn't have a legal leg to stand as they have never had any warranty on that car irrespective or receipts, work done etc.
It sucks, but that's my understanding of the law on private sales of cars.

Probably right on this. Unfortunately. Going to try anyway as spending a couple of hundred more euros isn't going to make much of a difference to the big bill coming our way at this stage. You know the saying "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb". Thats how I feel at the moment.

Welease

jmtc8 wrote: »

Probably right on this. Unfortunately. Going to try anyway as spending a couple of hundred more euros isn't going to make much of a difference to the big bill coming our way at this stage. You know the saying "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb". Thats how I feel at the moment.

The one thing i can suggest (if you haven't done this already), is to contact VW head office in Ireland (or the equivalent), they may be far more accomodating than a local dealership.

About 5 years ago I purchased a new MotoX bike during the foot and mouth crisis (lived in the UK). Unable to ride the machine in anger for about 4-5 months, when I did eventually take it out, the engine destroyed itself in under 70 miles (from new). I contacted the dealer who basically said they came with 6 mths warranty and to sod off.. Back and forth for a couple of months getting absolutely nowhere.
Finally as a last gasp effort, I sent an email to Kawasaki head office telling them I was disappointed with their product and service, and I would never purchase from them again. I received a response within 2 hours, asking me to provide more details, and within 2 days that had my bike shipped back and forced the dealer to fix it.. The lazy b**tard still took another 12 months to fix it :mad:, but at least Kawasaki sorted it.
Long boring story.. but sometimes the head office will see the bigger picture... best of luck.