Irish Economists are useless

MrMatisse

From Dennis O Brien interviewed on www.rte.ie

Mr O'Brien also said the country's third level sector supported 250 academic economists whom he accused of 'writing blogs, twittering and taking out ads to stop NAMA'.
He said they generally made a nuisance of themselves - which would be fine if 99% of them had not failed to predict the economic meltdown facing the country. He said the other 1% predicted doom all the time.
'I have a sense that all these economists need to come and work for real businesses to really understand how the economy works and see the actual stress and strain of running a business... only then will they have something to contribute,'

Time Magazine

The economists hit back:

Karl Whelan wrote:

I think we would take Mr. O’Brien’s lecturing about people having something to contribute a bit more seriously if he himself was willing to, say, contribute income tax to the Irish state.

I suppose in any case it’s futile to point out that I don’t know of a single Irish academic economist who Twitters and takes out ads in newspapers. Or that far from spending all day blogging, our time is largely taken up with teaching, research, administration and professional service such as refereeing and journal editing. Or that there’s more to economics than issuing warnings about macroeconomic meltdowns.

That said, it’s definitely true that people like me could never understand the stresses and strains associated with being a billionaire businessman who made his fortune by being awarded a mobile phone license in circumstances that ended up being investigated by a Tribunal of Inquiry. But then, not many of us could.

Hasschu

O'Brien's laudatory comments on the Tax Branch bring out the hard bitten, cynical side of me. A public inquiry into why his companies and himself are getting off scot free might be productive.

Flamed Diving

Yet another person to add themselves to the already formidable sight that is; Mount Ignorance.

silverharp

to be fair the IMF warned about the Irish economy in 2001 , nobody wanted to listen, I'm not sure if all the irish economists lining up outside the Dail then with "you're doomed!" tatooed across their foreheads would have made a blind bit of difference. the peeps wanted their party and they got it in spades.

nobbo

On a different direction to the original post, I must ask is it the norm for economics lecturers to be dull and useless. In NUIG at the moment and the 2 first year lecturers are idiots. At first I considered that it could have been just the college I choose and it was my own fault I didnt go somewhere else, but having talked to students in other colleges(Including Trinners and UCD) the standard doesnt seem to be much better.

I did economics for the leaving cert and loved it, turned out to be my favourite subject. The teacher wasnt great but he instilled a desire to learn the subject because he made it interesting by giving real life situations where the subject could be used. So far its the opposite where I am now. The lecturer seems to be uninterested in lecturing and just reads from a powerpoint slide. He doesnt explain ideas like elasticity to people who would have never come across it before and then expects them to do complex problems concerning elasticity.

If this isnt the norm and out of line I apologize but so far my experience of economics lecturers has been dreadful.

Tricity Bendix

nobbo wrote: »

On a different direction to the original post, I must ask is it the norm for economics lecturers to be dull and useless.

Not in my opinion. I've had a couple of dull lecturers, and a few useless ones, but very few are both dull and useless. (went to Trinity and currently in UCD, btw)

Flamed Diving

Ahhh, evidence through anecdote. Is there anything more useful?

leninbenjamin

I did a B.A. in economics in NUIG too, and yes there are some very dull lecturers there. Very few are completely useless though. Try asking them for their own opinion on things, or relating the current topic to real life. Some of them work in very small niches that isn't really covered by the core topics they teach 1st years, but tend to come to life when encouraged on something closer to them.

Ronan_L

On the original post, I have to say I agree with Karl Whelan. If Denis O'Brien were able to argue his point without making personal insults, it might be more plausible.

It seems to me that he thinks he's dealing with politicians, where you can attack them all as imbecilic and they'll happily start fighting it out amongst themselves.

Ireland has a very good standard of academic economist, though, on average (which brings me to the second point). People like Philip Lane and Kevin O'Rourke are among the best in their generation(s - there's a few years between them!) and Ireland's lucky that they decided to put up with this country to raise their families, rather than stay in the top universities in the US.

The standard is good, but with some caveats. Firstly, it's good relative to Ireland's size, which is small, so in a small country with so many economics departments, you're rapidly going to run out of potential Nobel winners and descend through the ranks. The best solution may indeed be to merge economics departments, as suggested elsewhere.

Secondly, being a good researcher doesn't mean you're also a good teacher. In fact, one could argue there's an inverse correlation in all but the best. Part of it is being unable to relate to someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of the subject. I know of one Irish-based academic, with a publication in the AER to boot, who used to bore the pants off his 1st years, purely because they didn't understand him and he didn't understand them (i.e. he couldn't understand how they couldn't understand it).

Lastly, no-one (or an even rarer few) like teaching maths! And the early days of economics is all about giving you the right tools to let you go off and investiage whatever you want.

Remember why you're interested in economics (why are we so rich, they so poor kinda stuff), stick with it and you'll rapidly find that the lecturers get more and more interested in the subjects they teach, as the topic converge better and better with their research interests!

nesf

nobbo wrote: »

On a different direction to the original post, I must ask is it the norm for economics lecturers to be dull and useless. In NUIG at the moment and the 2 first year lecturers are idiots. At first I considered that it could have been just the college I choose and it was my own fault I didnt go somewhere else, but having talked to students in other colleges(Including Trinners and UCD) the standard doesnt seem to be much better.

I did economics for the leaving cert and loved it, turned out to be my favourite subject. The teacher wasnt great but he instilled a desire to learn the subject because he made it interesting by giving real life situations where the subject could be used. So far its the opposite where I am now. The lecturer seems to be uninterested in lecturing and just reads from a powerpoint slide. He doesnt explain ideas like elasticity to people who would have never come across it before and then expects them to do complex problems concerning elasticity.

If this isnt the norm and out of line I apologize but so far my experience of economics lecturers has been dreadful.

There are poor lecturers in every subject, in every college, in every country. What makes a good researcher often doesn't make a good teacher and vice versa. I wouldn't stress out, First Year Economics isn't very interesting, it's just too basic. :P

Someone isn't an idiot because they don't teach well though. You'd find more traction for your points on here if you refrained from throwing insults around about people who others on here might know (I don't know anyone in NUIG economics).

_Kooli_

Really-Stressed wrote: »

From Dennis O Brien interviewed on www.rte.ie

Mr O'Brien also said the country's third level sector supported 250 academic economists whom he accused of 'writing blogs, twittering and taking out ads to stop NAMA'.
He said they generally made a nuisance of themselves - which would be fine if 99% of them had not failed to predict the economic meltdown facing the country. He said the other 1% predicted doom all the time.
'I have a sense that all these economists need to come and work for real businesses to really understand how the economy works and see the actual stress and strain of running a business... only then will they have something to contribute,'

Very true.
I had some great lecturers though who always made economics interesting to me. Its the only job in the world where you can be completely wrong for years and be right eventually and proclaim yourself a genius.

nesf

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Very true.
I had some great lecturers though who always made economics interesting to me. Its the only job in the world where you can be completely wrong for years and be right eventually and proclaim yourself a genius.

Only Nobel prize that can be awarded at the same time to two people that have spent their academic careers disagreeing with one another too. :P

graw

In response to the original post:

The Honohan paper named Resolving Irelands Banking Crisis gives a good run down of the early warning signs given by economists. http://www.esr.ie/Vol40_2/Vol-40-2-Honohan.pdf See section 3 ''Early Warnings?''

The point about 'predicting' is a no brainer. Economists can tell you what will (or might!) happen but nobody can put a time or date on that event.

_Kooli_

graw wrote: »

In response to the original post:

The Honohan paper named Resolving Irelands Banking Crisis gives a good run down of the early warning signs given by economists. http://www.esr.ie/Vol40_2/Vol-40-2-Honohan.pdf See section 3 ''Early Warnings?''

The point about 'predicting' is a no brainer. Economists can tell you what will (or might!) happen but nobody can put a time or date on that event.

Thats easy though isnt it.
I predict property prices will rise to 2006 prices and above.
I predict that the economy will return to growth in the next few years.
And i predict that there will be another bubble and another credit crunch after that.
I also predict that anyone who claims to be any better at predicting these events should be rich beyond belief (Not any of our celebrity economists.).

MrMatisse

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Thats easy though isnt it.
I predict property prices will rise to 2006 prices and above.
I predict that the economy will return to growth in the next few years.
And i predict that there will be another bubble and another credit crunch after that.
I also predict that anyone who claims to be any better at predicting these events should be rich beyond belief (Not any of our celebrity economists.).

I predict that the economy will begin to recover after 2011:D

Dennis is bang on. Ive never heard an irish economist actually make a positive comment in a debate ever in the Irish media. Its always bloody doom and gloom.

In my experience economics lecturers are boring there is a large amount of unimaginative boring types that tend to take economics to Phd level with the odd truely brilliant person thrown in.

irisheconomy.ie is the worlds greatest cure for insomnia.

Nate--IRL--

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Dennis is bang on. Ive never heard an irish economist actually make a positive comment in a debate ever in the Irish media. Its always bloody doom and gloom.

You've been listening to the wrong economists then, the Economists working for the various banks have all but been wearing cheerleader outfits trying to talk things up for a long time.

Now that their bull**** has been found wanting, Iraqi Information minister style, they only comment on a given subject while wearing Rose tinted glass.

Current Sound bite these days is "Recovery in 2011" Complete crap.

Nate

MrMatisse

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

You've been listening to the wrong economists then, the Economists working for the various banks have all but been wearing cheerleader outfits trying to talk things up for a long time.

Now that their bull**** has been found wanting, Iraqi Information minister style, they only comment on a given subject while wearing Rose tinted glass.

Current Sound bite these days is "Recovery in 2011" Complete crap.

Nate

Its not about being a cheerleader its about offering solutions to the mess were in. By all means oppose NAMA but come up with a detailed proposal for an alternative with input from people who work in investment banks etc who know how the market really behaves.

Too often at the moment the average joe sees them as the 'we told you so brigade'. Loads of people got carried away, it happened and it will happen again as people are greedy.

Guys like karl whelan, philip lane have phds, fom MIT, Harvard etc. I would prefer if they started working on detailed solutions as well as opposing NAMA and reminding us what bold children we were to get carried away with property.

Nate--IRL--

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Its not about being a cheerleader its about offering solutions to the mess were in. By all means oppose NAMA but come up with a detailed proposal for an alternative with input from people who work in investment banks etc who know how the market really behaves.

Too often at the moment the average joe sees them as the 'we told you so brigade'. Loads of people got carried away, it happened and it will happen again as people are greedy.

Guys like karl whelan, philip lane have phds, fom MIT, Harvard etc. I would prefer if they started working on detailed solutions as well as opposing NAMA and reminding us what bold children we were to get carried away with property.

NAMA 3.0 Is just one example.

You can't say there are no alternatives put forward if you haven't been bothered to look.

Nate