Deadbeat Dad

LegacyUser

Hi,

I want to find out about what a father is entitled to from the state. Situation is guy and girl have had a child though not married. He is not a legal guardian of the child and pays no maintenance whatsoever and this has been going on a few years at this stage yet he still demands to see his child a couple of times a week. Now I am aware the mother is stupid to let him considering he offers up nothing but I am certain it is out of fear. The truth is he never bothers with the child and just offloads the child to his mother as he still lives at home and goes out drinking or whatever else he does.

He shouts at the child constantly and fills its head with all sorts of nonsense telling the child not to speak to certain members of the family or the child will get in trouble etc. The child goes insane now out of fear when it for example drops food on the floor and this all stems from an occasion with the father when the child spilt some food and the father went nuts and took the head off calling the child every name under the sun even though we are only talking about a small child here. I for one think the guy has serious mental issues and constantly contemplate calling round and beating the crap out of him although I always end up asking myself were will that really get me ?

Anyway I found out he is claiming some sort of tax break for being a parent even though he has never paid any maintenance. I immediately thought this was wrong so rang the revenue who informed me he is not breaking the law once he lives either on his own or in the family home and gets the child at least one night a week. I told the revenue that sounds like these deadbeats are getting off the hook here and the woman on the phone totally agreed with me but said they can’t do anything about it as unfortunately that is the way the law is. The revenue told me he should not be entitled to any benefits from the state as he has not costs and does not live with the mother. Just wanted to find out are there any other entitlements this bum could be claiming illegally and just some advice in general as regards the current situation.

Stheno

The payment of maintenance by a parent is not in anyway linked with the right of said parent to have access to their child in this country, i.e. they are two seperate issues that can be regulated in the courts.

The mother of the child in this regard could make an application to the district court for maintenance. The father could make an application for access, and then two seperate orders with no bearing on each other would be made by the court.

The father is entitled to claim relief for his child as the Revenue have advised. As he has the child a couple of days a week, then he or his family are obviously incurring costs towards keeping the child during those times, and that is what the tax relief is for. Maintenance paid in relation to children is not tax deductible.

So overall, you have got the two issues mixed up a little imo. They are two entirely seperate issues legally and in terms of the Revenue.

That aside, if the mother feels that time spent with the father is having a detrimental effect on the child, she could go to Social Services in relation to that matter. I'd be careful in that regard, especially given your statements as to what the father does when the child is visiting etc as that may not be the case (unless of course you are there and witness all of this behaviour/passing the child to his parents etc, but you've contradicted yourself in the original post by first saying he never bothers with the child and goes to the pub, then saying that he shouts at the child constantly, this is not possible unless he has the gift of bilocation)

Completely o/t I did find your way of reference to the child in this situation as "it" rather impersonal to say the least.

So to sum up, the mother can seek maintenance in the courts, and the father can seek access/visitation, this would formalise those arrangements.

There is nothing wrong with the tax break he is claiming.

If it is felt that he has a detrimental impact on some form of the childs health, social services can be involved.

Finally in terms of his benefits and entitlements, they would be the same as any other person in terms of unemployment benefit/assistance or taxation allowances etc.

CDfm

OP - you are confusing several issues on maintenence and access.

The thing that worries me most about your post is that you are projecting how the child feels and what the fathers mental state is.The stress associated with access must really build up for the child (and the father).

I am a divorced Dad who went thru the court system and many women look at children as property. Anyone questioning a child endlessly about what happens will get the answers they want. Its not healthy. I have a 19 year old son who would tell you that. That is totally wrong.

You contacting the revenue about him is just vexatious and you should stop it.

There are co parenting courses the mother and father can access via One Family (formerly Gingerbread) http://www.gingerbread.ie/

I know I am biased but the Dad here has kept up contact and access. It seems to me that there is something that can be built on if approached properly.

LegacyUser

Just to clear up some points. The father doesn’t pay a thing for the child bar the cost of petrol for collecting and returning the child. He still lives at home with Mammy and contributes nothing to his Mammy according to the mother. The chap is over 30 and lives from pay cheque to pay cheque from what I am told. So it’s the above that has me pissed off about the tax break. He is actually earning something off having a child which he has no interest in and contributes nothing towards. Now I understand his mother is paying to feed the child among other things etc but that is not her responsibility and she is not claiming a tax break from it.

I apologise for referring to the child as “it” and actually thought it wrong at the time of writing but did not want to mention if the child was a boy or girl. No doubt I could have phrased that better. He also does not have the child every week. It’s more like when he knows mammy will be around so he can offload the child. Example being his mother would go down the country regularly and when that occurs the child is not taken by him as it means he would have to look after the child heaven forbid. The shouting incident over the spilt food happened in the car while the mother was present and left her shocked. I also have witnessed on occasion this unnecessary tirade against a poor innocent child having been present in the home at times.

Now I am not in any way against a person claiming a legitimate tax break for being a parent if they are actively involved with and contribute toward their child but I cannot agree with someone claiming one who is not. It’s like rubbing salt in the wound as far as I am concerned. There is something very wrong with the tax break he is claiming and as I said in the opening post the woman from revenue totally agreed and sympathised with but ultimately said nothing could be done about it as it’s just the way the laws in this country are. He is just a worthless deadbeat who gives nothing but abuse and threats to the mother who is in fear of him and I am nearing my wits end being honest. I have kept myself out of it up to now as I didn’t think it right to get involved but feel I can’t sit idly by much longer so if anyone has any advice.........

CDfm

OP - it is not your situation.

The sensible thing to suggest is contacting onefamily/gingerbread and encouraging them to attend a co-parenting course.

Seriously, people get into a merry little dance with access problems and the courts as it is an adversorial system.

As an alternative if there are issues they could try the Family Mediation Service which is free but has a waiting list

Dublin: 1st Floor, St. Stephen's Green, Earlsfort Terrace, D2. Tel: 01 634 4320
Galway: 1st Floor, Ross House, Merchants Road , Galway. Tel: 091 509730
Cork: Hibernian House, 80A South Mall, Cork. Tel: 021 252200
Limerick:1st Floor, Mill House, Henry Street,Limerick. Tel: 061 214310

So what you should do is collect literature on the facilities etc available and give them to the parties involved.

Anyway -I dont see how this is a personal issue to you.You seem to have an intense dislike of the guy and in fact if things did get nasty court wise your meddling could cause problems for the mother.

Stheno

--------------- wrote: »

Now I am not in any way against a person claiming a legitimate tax break for being a parent if they are actively involved with and contribute toward their child but I cannot agree with someone claiming one who is not. It’s like rubbing salt in the wound as far as I am concerned. There is something very wrong with the tax break he is claiming and as I said in the opening post the woman from revenue totally agreed and sympathised with but ultimately said nothing could be done about it as it’s just the way the laws in this country are.

Op you are not getting it. It IS a legitimate tax break, and he is entitled to claim it once he has the child for one overnight stay once a year. For someone who is on the sidelines here you are incredibly involved. Imo you'd be better off putting your energy into getting your friend to formalise her arrangements with her former partner rather than obsessing on his claiming what he is legitimately entitled to under the current system they have in place.

LegacyUser

This is a personal issue for me as I am the Childs uncle and mother is my sister so I feel I am well within in my rights to be concerned here and step in if I feel things are getting out of control. The guy is earning off the fact he has a child whom he does not contribute towards nor particularly care for. The child is nothing more than a weapon for him to use against the mother. Sometime he doesn’t consider it necessary to return the child when he is supposed to for no reason other than to worry and annoy the mother. On other occasions he sits in the car with the child with the doors locked and lets the mother just stand outside for 5-10 mins before letting the child out. As I said he only takes the child when his mother is there to look after the child and I honestly believe if it were not for his own mother he wouldn’t even have much contact with his child in the first place.

He thinks it perfectly alright to take the child overnight and not return the child the following morning for school which he has done on three occasions already this semester (the semester is only 6 weeks old!). When asked to contribute towards his child his answer has always been the same “the social give you money so why should I” What an immature selfless attitude to have. The state looks after you why should I! Now that riles me big time. What the chap is doing is wrong and if some people disagree then that is their right to do so. I am not alone in my thoughts here as my family share them also. I suppose in a way I shouldn’t be too surprised by his attitude considering he gives his own mother no money either.

I know there are plenty of good fathers out there who have a genuine interest in their children and are given a difficult time as regards access etc and do feel for them but this chap doesn’t and lives like he can do what he wants when he wants and how he wants. He is not a poor guy pleading for access and been given the run around. He acts like a dictator and just like any dictator has the instilled a fear in both mother and child. The mother is too much in fear of going the legal road which she has been advised to do. I would appreciate if some women could give their views on the matter and as for the above posters stating I have an intense dislike for this chap well could you really blame me?

CDfm

OP - it is your sisters problem and how can I say this nicely but your sister got herself into this situation.

It may make your blood boil etc but she is an adult and I imagine has enough on her plate without listening to your rant on what she should or should not do. She has made the decision on access etc and maintenance. You have no right to step in if you dont like her decisions.

It seems to me that you want to create trouble for the guy any way you can. Thats not a healthy attitude.

Nevyn

As things stand the state will not as a matter of default persue him for maintance even with him claiming single parnets tax credit. He could pay his maintance directly to the dept of socail welfare if he wanted to. I think he should be chased for it but there is not a service to curently do so. I would suggest you ring your local welfare office and ask them about the policies and proceedures.

LegacyUser

CDfm wrote: »

OP - it is your sisters problem and how can I say this nicely but your sister got herself into this situation.

It may make your blood boil etc but she is an adult and I imagine has enough on her plate without listening to your rant on what she should or should not do. She has made the decision on access etc and maintenance. You have no right to step in if you dont like her decisions.

It seems to me that you want to create trouble for the guy any way you can. Thats not a healthy attitude.

That is complete bollox and I dont accept it. I have told you the current situation is not her doing but has come about because of the fear he has instilled in her were she to go the legal road. He was warned her that things will get alot worse and threatened violence were she to do so. So I dont accept that she got herself into it. If I dont act here then going by what your saying nobody should and I should allow things to continue ? That is some poor advice being honest and you couldnt actually expect me to take that on board. As I said in the first post I had considered violence myself but thought it the wrong decision in the end. I just dont know what else to do at this stage but one thing is for certain things cannot continue as they are.

CDfm

OP you can be supportive of your sister and advise her to contact a support group but you cant take the matter on yourself.You can even go with her to the support group.

I have suggested onefamily above that have councellors available to advise clients like your sister.

I am not going to post on this anymore and as much as I sympathise with you there is a correct way to tackle these issues and being angry is not the way.

Nevyn

----------- wrote: »

That is complete bollox and I dont accept it. I have told you the current situation is not her doing but has come about because of the fear he has instilled in her were she to go the legal road. He was warned her that things will get alot worse and threatened violence were she to do so. So I dont accept that she got herself into it. If I dont act here then going by what your saying nobody should and I should allow things to continue ? That is some poor advice being honest and you couldnt actually expect me to take that on board. As I said in the first post I had considered violence myself but thought it the wrong decision in the end. I just dont know what else to do at this stage but one thing is for certain things cannot continue as they are.

Look I sympathise I know of other parents in that sort of a situation and tbh you can't fix this for her you can on encourage her to take action and be there for her when she does and he tries to intimidate her again.

There are many parents who put up with things frankly they should not for the sake of not living in a state of war or being constantly threatened.

If the child's maternal grandmother is the one who is caring for the child when he is not at home then maybe open a line of communication there but going in angry and hot headed will usually make things worse.

LegacyUser

Ok guys I will take the support councillor suggestion to her and see what she has to say but opening a line of dialouge with the grandmother seems out of the question as he threatened her not to call his house knowing his mother could answer. Perhaps I could call the grandmother but thinking about it I suppose it should really come from the mother. I apologise for taking the hot headed approach but this situation does really make ones blood boil.

CDfm

OP -thats more like it and I would avoid calling the grandmother.

If you want to support your sister get her attending a single parents group and doing things for herself.

Given that the grandmother will take care of the child suggest that she takes advantage of it as a resourse or babysitter and call her.

The best thing you can do for your sister is get her to one of those groups. The worst thing you can do is take over or add to the anger.

LegacyUser

Hi OP,

Unfortunately this is none of your business, he is the childs father, and he has the right to see his child and even raise him as he sees fit. Your sister is responsible to seek child maintenance if she needs the support, it sounds like she does not want to pursue it but she is entitled to it and there is things she can do if this guy does threaten her,

it is good that you are concerned about your sister and nephew but you are getting sucked into other peoples relationships, this guy may be horrible but your sister picked him and she has to take responsibility for that and work through the best situation for her child, it is important the dad is in his sons life and your sister should be working toward creating a situation where there is some communication going on because he is going to be around for a long time.

You dont have to like this guy but you do have to accept that he is the childs father and that the child is better off with both their input in his life.