Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Sea the Stars retired

  • 13-10-2009 12:06pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭


    Just heard on RTE.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Yeah i just seen it on the RP website, Right thing to do but pity we won't see him on a racecourse again. A true champ.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Tis a horses life isnt it,
    Win a few big races for the owner, retire and become somewhat of a horsey porn star for the rest of your life.
    Not bad.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    Obviously as a racing fan disappointed, but definitely the correct decision


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    he will have one enjoyable retirement, thats for sure


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭Pighead


    Great horse. May he RIP.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    Pighead wrote: »
    Great horse. May he RIP.

    Jaysus Pighead you wouldnt be great at doing a speach at a retirement do :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭Pighead


    Jaysus Pighead you wouldnt be great at doing a speach at a retirement do :D
    Pighead would actually be brilliant at doing retirement speeches. What's wrong with saying "May he ride in pleasure"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Glad he's not going to the States but I don't think he would be beaten if he ran next year. People say he's got nothing to prove and for the most part he doesn't, but he could become the undisputed greatest if he ran again next year. He's a horse, bred to run. He should be allowed to do it again next year.

    Would you prefer he was infertile and stay in training next year or retire and produce one great horse and the rest mediocre?

    bear in mind that his one great probably wont come in his first year at stud...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭convert


    Glad they decided to retire him, for the horse's sake. Obviously as a racegoer, it's disappointing, but I think they made the right decision for him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    Pighead wrote: »
    Pighead would actually be brilliant at doing retirement speeches. What's wrong with saying "May he ride in pleasure"?

    Personally Premierstone finds that people who refer to themselves in the third person are not ideal for speech making :D

    Also the more reserved types that would normally be associated with such functions may take exception to your play on words.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭dougal


    Indeed it is a sad day for the horse racing fan that we won't get to see him again.
    Was looking forward to seeing him kick American ass in Santa Anita.

    Oh well thanks for the memories STS and the reddies too!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    Total noobie question but why would they retire him so young? Surely he has a number of good years left in him and being a flat runner less chance of an accident no?
    I'm sure it's a stupid question so sorry in advance!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 matthews08


    dougal wrote: »
    Indeed it is a sad day for the horse racing fan that we won't get to see him again.
    Was looking forward to seeing him kick American ass in Santa Anita.

    Oh well thanks for the memories STS and the reddies too!

    Definitely would have been great to see him at Santa Anita. I look forward to the Breeders Cup every year but it would have been a lot more interesting if Sea The Stars had taken part. Still, he's one of the all-time greats.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    You may find that insurance costs had a lot to do with the decision


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭....


    alfalad wrote: »
    Total noobie question but why would they retire him so young? Surely he has a number of good years left in him and being a flat runner less chance of an accident no?
    I'm sure it's a stupid question so sorry in advance!

    i dont understand this either


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭wb


    alfalad wrote: »
    Total noobie question but why would they retire him so young? Surely he has a number of good years left in him and being a flat runner less chance of an accident no?
    I'm sure it's a stupid question so sorry in advance!

    With flat horses alfalad, it's all about earning money when the horse goes to stud.

    Sea The Stars has an almost perfect record and will command a serious amount of money every time he does the business with a female horse.

    Flat horses with great records are usually retired to keep that record intact. If you owned him, why risk keeping him racing and letting his reputation being diminished. He's retiring at the absolute top of his game so the sky is the limit as regard to stud fees.

    This is on the flat - the reason the National Hunt (jumps) horses go on for years - is that most are gelded. In other words, they have their knackers chopped off and wont be able to reproduce anyway. So as a jumps owner, it makes sense to keep the horse running if there's any chance of winning some prize money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    alfalad wrote: »
    Total noobie question but why would they retire him so young? Surely he has a number of good years left in him and being a flat runner less chance of an accident no?
    I'm sure it's a stupid question so sorry in advance!

    Its not a stupid question at all, and one which every noob asks at some stage.

    Heres an answer I gave a year ago when a Champion 3 Year Old (New Approach) was being retired.

    The figures below were for New Approach, can probably be doubled at least for STS. The case for everything going wrong that I've mentioned (case c) probably seems less likely for STS than most horses, though you should never underestimate the possiblity of Murphys law when it comes to horses.

    ******************

    To an extent its economics.
    Lets say a successful topclass bluebred 3year old can cover 150 mares at €25,000.
    Thats an income of €4M a year for 3 breeding seasons (before his first crop races) so he has a shortterm value to his owners of €12-€15M.

    Race on as a 4year old (and beyond) and one of the following 3 things will happen.

    a) He'll win a bit and lose a bit. The competition is so fierce at the top level that the chances are he'll pick up a couple of more Group1s, be placed in a few more and maybe be off the pace in a few more. He might be beaten by the following years Derby/Guineas winner in some of the open races.
    He'll still be a topclass horse but the air of invincibility is gone.

    He picks up a €1M in prizemoney but his stud fee at the end of his 4yearold season is just €20000, and he retires at a time when horses who have beaten him are also going to stud, and his owners have to work far harder on getting the 150 topclass mares for him. A few mares owners look elsewhere, and the overall quality of his book is down a notch, which in 3 years affects the quality of his first set of runners.
    Overall the value to his owners is €10-€12M.

    b) He has a fantastic season, wins 6 Group1s on the bounce in Europe at distances from a 8F to a mile and a half, before switching to Dirt to trounce the best of the Yanks in the Breeders Club classic. Retires to stud with a full book at €60000.
    Value to his owners €30-€40M.

    c) Its a disaster, niggly injuries and a suspect temperament see him race 3 times with a 3rd at Royal Ascot his best performance. Question marks surface over the quality of his form as a 3yearold and people start querying whether theres a bit too much stamina in his pedigree.
    Initially stands at €15K but the book isn't full and by season 2 he is standing at €8K and being marketed to National Hunt mares. By season 4 he is offloaded to Turkey.
    Value to his owners. €1-2M.

    a) is the most likely thing to happen, so unless an owner feels that there is a big chance that he might be in column b) then its not consider worth the risk.
    Take the money and run has tradionally been the motto, though Coolmore are thankfully for us racing fans starting to 'take the risk' more and more over the last few years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Thanks for clearing that up for me a year ago ArmaniJeanss :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    Its a real pity for racing in general that hes retired but if we look at it from the owners prespective that the horse has now got potential earnings of upwards of €100m.
    He only raced 9 times of which possibly 3-4 of them he had to break a sweat which means he`ll be in prime condition for breeding purposes and with him being a true blueblood the odds of him being a successful sire are very good.
    Hopefully it works out for the superstar and may he enjoy a long and healthy retirement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    Thanks to everyone for there responses, they make sense when explained like that, so thanks again for your patience.

    Armanijeans, given what I read the competition doesn't look that hot in the states this year but by bringing him to the states this year would they not be showing the states this great horse and therefore increase the potential earnings from stud? Or is it a case of anybody who has the money to afford him in the states already knows about him and will be already in the queue?

    I have quoted the below section cause firstly .....OUCH...... but secondly does this mean the quality of the horses does not improve through breeding as the best horses can't breed? Is the reason for gelding just so they behave better??
    wb wrote: »
    This is on the flat - the reason the National Hunt (jumps) horses go on for years - is that most are gelded. In other words, they have their knackers chopped off and wont be able to reproduce anyway. So as a jumps owner, it makes sense to keep the horse running if there's any chance of winning some prize money.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    alfalad wrote: »
    I have quoted the below section cause firstly .....OUCH...... but secondly does this mean the quality of the horses does not improve through breeding as the best horses can't breed? Is the reason for gelding just so they behave better??

    No the quality of the breed improves (or at least stays constant) through breeding. And the best horses do get to breed.

    You should ignore jumping from the debate totally - whilst it is hugely enjoyable (some prefer it to the flat) it is a complete irrelevance in terms of 'quality' as only failed horses from the flat ever get to race over jumps, or else horses sired by flat stallions who were unable to breed winning flat progeny themselves.

    So its not so much that the great jumpers can't breed because they are gelded, its more that they were gelded because they weren't good enough in the 'core' sport of flat racing. *


    I've tried to phrase it such as way to avoid a jumps is better than flat debate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    alfalad wrote: »
    Armanijeans, given what I read the competition doesn't look that hot in the states this year but by bringing him to the states this year would they not be showing the states this great horse and therefore increase the potential earnings from stud? Or is it a case of anybody who has the money to afford him in the states already knows about him and will be already in the queue?

    If they intended to stand him at stud in America then they would probably have gone over to the Breeders Cup. But he is 'standing' at stud in Ireland most likely.
    Because there is no great tradition of American mare owners sending their mares over to be covered in Europe then even a victory in the US wouldn't increase his earnings that much.
    Also I suspect that they genuinely don't want to risk an injury to the horse, they don't want to run him on Lasix which you effectively have to do in the States because every other horse runs on it, and that they are doing what is best for the horse after a long tough season.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    If they intended to stand him at stud in America then they would probably have gone over to the Breeders Cup. But he is 'standing' at stud in Ireland most likely.
    Because there is no great tradition of American mare owners sending their mares over to be covered in Europe then even a victory in the US wouldn't increase his earnings that much.
    Also I suspect that they genuinely don't want to risk an injury to the horse, they don't want to run him on Lasix which you effectively have to do in the States because every other horse runs on it, and that they are doing what is best for the horse after a long tough season.

    Ok that makes sense if there is nothing to be gained from going over there, why risk it. Injury, or him not traveling well could cause him to make less money in the long run.
    Quick google of Lasix leads to a whole other kettle of fish!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    No the quality of the breed improves (or at least stays constant) through breeding. And the best horses do get to breed.

    You should ignore jumping from the debate totally - whilst it is hugely enjoyable (some prefer it to the flat) it is a complete irrelevance in terms of 'quality' as only failed horses from the flat ever get to race over jumps, or else horses sired by flat stallions who were unable to breed winning flat progeny themselves.

    So its not so much that the great jumpers can't breed because they are gelded, its more that they were gelded because they weren't good enough in the 'core' sport of flat racing. *


    I've tried to phrase it such as way to avoid a jumps is better than flat debate

    You've failed miserably on the flat is better than jumps one! :)
    Effectively although it is highly entertaining in my (noobies) eyes, all (or at least most)of the hunt horse are bred from flat stallions but are not that good on the flat but have an ability to jump and hence a new career opens up, am i correct in saying that?
    So I assume flat is were the money is in this game?

    Thanks again for the info by the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    alfalad wrote: »
    Effectively although it is highly entertaining in my (noobies) eyes, all (or at least most)of the hunt horse are bred from flat stallions but are not that good on the flat but have an ability to jump and hence a new career opens up, am i correct in saying that?
    So I assume flat is were the money is in this game?

    There is bigger money in flat racing yes. But the real money is in breeding if you have a horse good enough that his genes will be in demand. That's the simple reason why STS won't race again. He's worth too much money at stud.

    So unless he's firing blanks and fails as a stud stallion he will not be seen on a racecourse again.

    Sometimes a horse that wasn't great on the flat could go on to be a top class jumper, it's a different game.

    And yes horses are gelded to improve their concentration.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭alfalad


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    There is bigger money in flat racing yes. But the real money is in breeding if you have a horse good enough that his genes will be in demand. That's the simple reason why STS won't race again. He's worth too much money at stud.

    So unless he's firing blanks and fails as a stud stallion he will not be seen on a racecourse again.

    Sometimes a horse that wasn't great on the flat could go on to be a top class jumper, it's a different game.

    And yes horses are gelded to improve their concentration.

    Thanks for the info!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭convert


    only failed horses from the flat ever get to race over jumps, or else horses sired by flat stallions who were unable to breed winning flat progeny themselves.

    That's not entirely fair or accurate. There's a huge number of breeders out there who breed horses for NH racing rather than flat racing. True, a large number of them would use flat stallions, but would have a good NH mare and would mix the breeding to get a good stayer, but with a little bit of speed, in order to breed a good NH horse. For NH you need stamina, strength and speed in order to have a top class horse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    convert wrote: »
    That's not entirely fair or accurate. There's a huge number of breeders out there who breed horses for NH racing rather than flat racing. True, a large number of them would use flat stallions, but would have a good NH mare and would mix the breeding to get a good stayer, but with a little bit of speed, in order to breed a good NH horse. For NH you need stamina, strength and speed in order to have a top class horse.

    Thats very true and I simplified it a little.

    However its worth bearing in mind that almost all the colts that the NH mares gives birth to will end up being gelded, put away as store horses and start running over jumps around 4 years of age (a tiny tiny percentage might be fast enough to race on the flat). The NH sires never become a Sire of Sires etc.

    So NH doesn't provide its own continuity in the way that flat racing does - it continually needs an influx of new sires who've probably never jumped in their lives but have either failed as flat stallions (Our Vic / Golan / Phardante) or have too much stamina, icky breeding or a less than glittering track record (Presenting / Fleminsfirth / Bobs Return).

    So on the flat in order to sire a Derby winner you might put together a Derby winner and an 1000 Guineas winner. But on the Jumps to sire a Cheltenham Gold Cup winner you can't use a stallion and mare who've both won Grade 1 steeplechases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Wicked


    is it true that they wouldn't bring him over because nooone would insure him?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Wicked wrote: »
    is it true that they wouldn't bring him over because nooone would insure him?

    nonsense. it was clear he wasn't going when Kinane talked about his coat going hairy. Whether or not they could get him insured is irrelevant though I dont know anything about horse insurance


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Wicked


    Nulty you may be right, it may not be the reason he did not go but i would not right the idea off as nonsense.

    Also i don't think the insurance is 'irrelevant' in fact i think it is very relevant.

    I doubt a horse with a potential value of millions is trotting around with no insurance. In my opinion , if no company would insure the horse to go the distance and for the race then why would the horse go?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Wicked wrote: »
    I doubt a horse with a potential value of millions is trotting around with no insurance. In my opinion , if no company would insure the horse to go the distance and for the race then why would the horse go?

    Surprisingly enough some of the top owners have a policy of not insuring even their best racehorses, the late Robert Sangster was known for this.

    As for STS I doubt that 'no insurance company would insure him' (it sounds very unlikely as its their business) though its a little more plausible that the premiums quoted were considered too high by the Tsui's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Wicked


    €85,000 a service. wow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    Wicked wrote: »
    €85,000 a service. wow.

    When he`s a proven sire it`ll be a lot more than that..Easy money :)

    Imagine the super offspring between STS & Zarkava.Unreal...Exciting stuff


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Whyno wrote: »
    Imagine the super offspring between STS & Zarkava.Unreal...Exciting stuff

    Aye, stoutly enough bred to be able to win a few novice chases - I'd say Paul Nicholls has it in mind for the 2017 Arkle. :)


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    Wicked wrote: »
    €85,000 a service. wow.

    After the Irish champion I was thinking 70-80 and after the Arc 80-100k

    He's sure to be commercial for breeders who breed to sell however if you're one of the breed to race brigade its scary to think that you could get a nomination for the likes of Pivotal, Dansili & Oasis Dream (among others) for less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    Aye, stoutly enough bred to be able to win a few novice chases - I'd say Paul Nicholls has it in mind for the 2017 Arkle. :)

    Stoutly bred but i bet it wouldnt be able win a 3m maiden hurdle in Kelso.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭Merry Deal


    Whyno wrote: »
    Stoutly bred but i bet it wouldnt be able win a 3m maiden hurdle in Kelso.:)

    A great horse trained by a great man.
    And partnered by a great jockey.


Advertisement