When will URP Scheme start?

clohamon

The URP is the Unserved Rural Premises Scheme. Finian McGrath (TD) asked the minister a question about it last week.

My Department is currently examining options around the design of a scheme under the EERP to make service available to such premises in rural areas. It is hoped to commence this Scheme in 2010 and conclude it by 2011. A critical first step is to apply for and secure State Aid clearance from the European Commission. This dialogue has already begun.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-10-06.3151.0&s=%22Telecommunications+Services.%22

According to Seamus Boland of Irish Rural Link the URP scheme covers both NBS and non-NBS areas. So the question is, can two schemes (URP and NBS) run simultaneously while applying to the same areas. If not, we will have to wait until the NBS is finished - September 2010 at the earliest - before the URP can begin.

Sponge Bob

URP could start any time.

It would be completely conditional on EU funding accoring to the Green manifeshto from the weekend . naturally there is no target date .

As the NBS relies on Satellite for some of its coverage it will most likely be Ka Band satellite ....reading the stagnant green coloured tealeaves

rob808

Sponge Bob wrote: »

URP could start any time.

It would be completely conditional on EU funding accoring to the Green manifeshto from the weekend . naturally there is no target date .

As the NBS relies on Satellite for some of its coverage it will most likely be Ka Band satellite ....reading the stagnant green coloured tealeaves

That suck but dsl in ireland getting really bad because of the instrusture it be better than satellite doh

clohamon

The scheme is now due to finish a year later; in 2012.

My Department is currently considering options for the design of such a scheme. It is hoped to commence this scheme in 2010 and conclude it in 2012.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-10-20.1623.0&s=%22Telecommunications+Services.%22

clohamon

This scheme is now cleared by EU for non-NBS areas only.

The scheme is not due to start until September and will last until 31/12/2015, subject to funding from the European Economic Recovery Package (EERP)

We'll have to see what's in the detail, which should be available 15 working days from the decision date: 4.12.2009.

rahtkennades

With so many acronyms, I'm confused. I thought that NBS was 'supposed' to cover 100% of the population when it included the satellite 'broadband' portion.

Are they now saying that even after 100% coverage that there will still be people without access?

Or is this URP/EERP scheme to pay for the satellite portion?

clohamon

The Department knew that there were premises that could not get broadband but were also outside the NBS*. They are owning up to about 12,000 such premises so far. It is these that the scheme addresses.

URP was short for Unserved Rural Premises, a name given to it by Irish Rural Link who, I believe, announced it first.
Irish Rural Link incorrectly assumed that the scheme would cover both NBS and non-NBS areas. It doesn't.

*The NBS only addresses 1028 electoral divisions (EDs).

Sponge Bob

clohamon wrote: »

*The NBS only addresses 1028 electoral divisions (EDs).

And there are roughly another 1500 'rural' electoral divisions and 500 urban EDs out there.

I find it hard to imagine that only 13 premises are unserved in each rural one on average.

watty

Also according to the Department's own (probably low) estimate, 10% in NBS areas won't get NBS (which is only Mobile Phone) and will be offered Satellite.

The WORST off are those in NBS and with a 3 Ireland Mobile Phone signal (3G/HSPA).

clohamon

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I find it hard to imagine that only 13 premises are unserved in each rural one on average.

Details of the scheme announced here

The stand out statistic is that DCENR are now accepting that 25,000 premises were excluded from the original NBS scheme.

As explained by the Irish authorities, approximately 25 000 premises in the country (approximately 1.4% of the total number of premises) can be considered as "white areas" where consumers still do not have access to affordable broadband services due to topological shortcomings (such as height of the local terrain, buildings or other local obstructions or split copper lines) and also because these premises were not covered by the previous State aid broadband scheme of Ireland6. According to the Irish authorities, the targeted end users are widely dispersed across rural areas of the country.

The detailed mapping process has to be done again apparently.

A detailed mapping and coverage analysis and consultation with existing operators will be conducted by Ireland in order to clearly identify the targeted "white areas".

The Scheme:

Two stage process. First, existing providers (excluding satellite) will be given a chance to provide an existing service to an applicant at market terms. If the provider is unwilling, the customer becomes "unserved". When first stage is over (4 months max), those still "unserved' go to tender.

• Tender to be weighted to lowest bidder. (lowest grant requirement)
• Wholesale product to be available for duration of the scheme (5 years) and 7 years after.
• EERP funding seems to be taken for granted.
• Service Level: 2Mbps/256kbps, 48:1, 10GB, VOIP/VPN
• Though nominally technology neutral, a special condition will exclude everything except satellite in practice.

Ireland will also include in the award criteria a provision relating to minimising any potential overspill of the broadband service provision (for instance, due to the wider line of sight of wireless solutions) to areas that are currently being served by existing service providers.

drunkmonkey

Any update on this Scheme? What should people in non nbs area do?

watty

Same as unservered people in NBS:

Lobby TD
Setup self help group
meanwhile get a dish.

In fact *everyone* in NBS area should do that too

clohamon

Finian McGrath (TD) has asked the Minister the question.

I hope to be in a position to launch the first part of the scheme (identifying and verifying the applicants) in September this year. At that time I would also expect that an EU Procurement Process will be under way to identify a Service Provider for the Scheme. On an indicative basis, I expect the Service Provider to be appointed and roll-out to start around mid-2011 and the scheme to be completed by the end of 2012.

A total of €13.413m from the EAFRD is available to the rural broadband initiative. This allocation, being 75% of the total, would mean a total available funding of €17.884m for the initiative.

Note the procurement process is for one service provider.

clohamon

Also worth noting that in contrast to earlier schemes the amount of state/EU funding has been explicitly stated prior to tendering. Previously it was withheld, allegedly to achieve the best price from those tendering.

If the 17.884M was spread over the 25,000 premises it makes €715 per installation. If they outsource the administration of the scheme it will be less. There will also have to be provision for both a retail and wholesale margin.

That will then cover installation and 5 years subventing the difference between satellite and say mobile; and a further 7 years for the wholesale product.

So it will be interesting to see how the tender is structured and whether it will be a price-per-installation or an all-in deal.

watty

clohamon wrote: »

Note the procurement process is for one service provider.

Which is STUPIDITY. And was the stupidity of original NBS too, given that only eircom has a National Fixed Wireless Licence. Everyone else has to apply per location with 20km circle.

The only truly national isp wholesale is eircom DSL and Satellite.

The NBS was structured such that ONLY a Mobile 3G operator doing a rollout could really tender, meaning that inherently NO real broadband solution would be tendered.

Meteor and 3 both *HAD* to do roll outs to meet licence obligations. No surprise they (That's what eircom's "solution" mostly was) were the only two tenders short listed.

Thus the NBS was So badly designed only an inferior non-Broadband solution could win. Same applies to URP, except more so, it's basically a tender for Satellite. (VSAT).

Sponge Bob

The rollout phase is suspiciously dated to some time after Ka Sat is launched and maybe Hylas.

Falcon9 is due to launch shortly on its maiden voyage...were anybody following that

Hylas has been kicked back loads of times, the most recent being from July 2010 to an unknown time as the new Soyuz launch cntre in French Guiana , Sinnamary near Kourou, will not be ready in July.

This also affects scheduled Gallileo satnav launches.

Just so you know. 3 got the NBS contract based on using am unproven satellite and an unproven launcher in January 2009. In April 2010 neither has flown. The unproven satellite is now sitting in India while a new launch complex is prepared for it.

From Sept last year.

Astrium Satellites officials had conceded in June that delivery of what they described as a highly innovative flexible payload has taken longer than expected, and would force a year’s delay, to mid-2010, in the launch of Hylas.

It was shipped to ISRO in India late last year for integration and testing. They say

The satellite will be ready for shipment by mid 2010.

But launched in March 2011 , maybe ??

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/karnataka/article347010.ece

ISRO plans to put up Hylas satellite of its commercial arm Antrix before March 2011.

Meanwhile the launch complex simply ain't ready...but that is OK coz neither are Hylas and Gallileo the first scheduled launches.

Hylas will have a total thruput of 3.2gbits across all 8 spots meaning the damn thing could only deliver 400mbits to all of Ireland and the UK...if it worked.

watty

Eircom's tender (for NBS) was more expensive because they had factored the cost at required contention (much better than typical satellite contention) of a real pre-existing satellite service available from Day 1.

Where was the Due Diligence by the Dept? They are not obliged to accept the cheapest tender if it has fudged bits.

clohamon

A few extra details on the Scheme from Billy Kelleher (Minister of State with special responsibility for Trade and Commerce, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment)

http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2010-06-01.386.0&s=%22Telecommunications+Services.%22

As we know it excludes NBS areas and is "Rural". Here's what "Rural" means.

“Rural” in this case is defined under the rural development plan by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and excludes the following areas: the city council boundaries of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick; the borough council boundaries of Kilkenny, Sligo and Wexford; and the town council boundaries of Athlone, Ballina, Castlebar, Cavan, Dundalk, Ennis, Killarney, Letterkenny, Mallow, Monaghan, Mullingar, Tralee, Tuam and Tullamore.

And in case you've got a lousy service at the moment and are thinking a satellite would be just the job, they've seen you coming.

This scheme should not be regarded as an option in cases where consumers are unhappy with the level of service available to them from existing providers. Service providers already have complaint procedures in place to resolve issues of this kind.

Sponge Bob

A total of €13.413 million under the EAFRD is available for the broadband initiative. This allocation, being 75% of the total, will mean a total available funding of €17.884 million for the initiative. This funding will allow for expenditure up until the end of 2012.

State aid approval has been granted by the European Commission as part of the overall process of securing the necessary approvals and funding for the scheme. This approval was obtained early in the process of planning and design of the scheme and was granted on the basis of a high level description of the proposed scheme. The clearance is based on a number of conditions which must be observed in the final form of the scheme. Detailed planning is under way for a scheme which would offer a basic broadband service to rural unserved premises.
The key qualifying criteria for the scheme will be that the premises in question is outside of the areas covered by the NBS, in a rural location as defined under the rural development plan and not capable of being served by existing service providers. The key component of the scheme will be to identify applicants who fulfil these conditions. I stress this scheme will not be available in locations served by existing service providers and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will consult existing Internet service providers to ensure the scheme does not encroach on their existing customer base and to verify that applicants are unable to obtain a broadband service.
This scheme should not be regarded as an option in cases where consumers are unhappy with the level of service available to them from existing providers. Service providers already have complaint procedures in place to resolve issues of this kind. In a parallel exercise, there will be a competitive process to engage a service provider who will offer a broadband service to qualified applicants under the scheme. While the exact details have yet to be finalised, I expect the service offered under this scheme would at least match the service offered under the NBS. This process will be technology neutral and it will be a matter for the bidders to decide which technical approach they propose in their bids. The proposed scheme is intended to complement Ireland’s previous broadband intervention initiatives and will, subject to the market responding to the scheme, ensure the remaining unserved rural premises will be able to avail of a broadband service. This underlines the Government’s commitment to the goal of ubiquitous broadband. It is intended to commence the scheme this year with the identification of premises not capable of receiving broadband. It is expected the roll-out phase of the scheme will be carried out during 2011 and 2012.

watty

Will people be eligible for this if they were previously designated NBS and 3 never enables their ED or fails audit (ha ha) on an ED?

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Will people be eligible for this if they were previously designated NBS and 3 never enables their ED or fails audit (ha ha) on an ED?

You mean the NLNBSBURP cohort Watty ?? Shall we wait until the NBS is complete in September before we discuss that ???

Sponge Bob

Ryan in the Dáil, first a pack of lies about broadband and then some background on the URP

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-01.428.0

Funding for rural broadband has become available from the European Economic Recovery Plan through the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development (EAFRD) administered by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. This Department is responsible for developing a new measure under the Rural Development Plan to use this funding to address the issue of basic broadband availability in remaining un-served rural premises outside of the NBS areas.
State Aid approval has been granted by the European Commission as part of the overall process of securing the necessary approvals and funding for the scheme. Detailed planning is now underway for this scheme. The key qualifying criteria for the scheme will be that the premises in question is in a rural area, outside the areas covered by the NBS and cannot be served by existing service providers.
It is intended to commence the scheme later this year with the identification of premises not capable of receiving broadband. It is expected that the roll-out phase of the scheme will be carried out during 2011 and 2012.

blueball

As a non techie person I am now more confused than ever !
As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the original NBS scheme asked all the wireless guys where their signals went to and although some were truthful quite a lot more were "optimistic" to say the least .
Because these wireless guys were optimistic in their coverage anticipation quite a large number of people were excluded from being able to avail of the NBS scheme because they were in the wrong colour on the NBS map.
Then along came 3 with their promises which seem absolutely baseless leaving thousands of punters still unable to get broadband within the designated NBS areas.
Now along comes a new scheme which is designated to provide broadband to who ??
Apparently the sorry punters ( I am one ) who are in the 1100 electoral districts that form the NBS are precluded as they are being served by the Dingle Dongle people of 3 (God help us ).
The punters who were outside the NBS because the various wireless suppliers said that they could supply service to them also will not qualify for this new "initiative " because according to Ryan's Department they are presently being adequately served ( which was the reason why they could not get into the NBS in the first place ).
People who have already signed up for systems that blatantly don't deliver even ISDN speeds and who want to avail of a proper broadband service are also excluded.
If everybody therefore is being adequately served who is this €17 million going to be spent on ?

clohamon

blueball wrote: »

Now along comes a new scheme which is designated to provide broadband to who ??

If everybody therefore is being adequately served who is this €17 million going to be spent on ?

You're right on nearly all of it. The 17 million is for non-NBS areas which were deemed, incorrectly, by the mapping process to already be capable of receiving broadband.

They are currently admitting to about 25,000 premises.

watty

blueball wrote: »

As a non techie person I am now more confused than ever !
As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the original NBS scheme asked all the wireless guys where their signals went to and although some were truthful quite a lot more were "optimistic" to say the least .

The way they handled DSL exchanges was very optimistic. Circles.

The Dept also put their own interpretation on the Wireless data they were given largely replacing coverage with .. Circles.

Then the final insult was that they re-did map AFTER the tenders submitted, as Electoral districts, simply setting a threshold! (Is it 60%?).

They then also picked an arbitrary limit of 8% per ED for people to get Satellite (Vsat) if no 3G signal.

Even 3's much vaunted iHSPA is of course not Broadband anyway. The problem was not awarding it to 3. The problem was that from the beginning, before they even asked to tenders the scheme was flawed and doomed to mediocrity.

Sponge Bob

blueball wrote: »

As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the original NBS scheme asked all the wireless guys where their signals went to and although some were truthful quite a lot more were "optimistic" to say the least .

Your understanding is correct, however they will not conduct a large mapping exercise to ask these people for their coverage this time because (after all) they already cover these areas in the main. They will confirm some coverage and some non coverage in an ED for an ISP they accept is there.

The DCENR will allow a customer in Ballymaging or Ballymagoo to click their location on a map and the service providers who cover that area ( or contigous) can enter some class of auction to provide them with 2 mbits this time. It will not go to one company.

Naturally I expect the DCENR to make a complete balls of it

lucernarian

Eircom's NGB rollout availability thingy on their website clearly shows that eircom have properly mapped out exchange areas with full accuracy, so why the hell did the DCENR use circles?? Especially with most lines being within range for an amber result at least, they probably could get away with simply including a whole exchange area (within reason) as part of the "covered" map.

watty

I think it was all done by Student or Recent Graduate, with a map and a round Rubber stamp.

The 1st maps I saw from DCENR looked like Map imported into and edited in MSPaint or similar. There ARE professional "data mapping tools". There are even free ones.

UHF Transmitter coverage map produced entirely with free Software

(from http://www.wattystuff.net/amateur/ei70cmrepeaters.htm With a typical Mobile Radio in car the red bits don't work reliably. Orange is workable, Green is good and clear there is no coverage.)

The coverage above uses free NASA radar data. Actual Irish Ordinance Survey data for an area that size would cost 10s of Millions. The information exists. But no WISP can economically use it even though the Taxpayer has already paid for it. At 2GHz to 10GHz you really need the OS data (inc buildings if available) for the same level of accuracy as the Shuttle Radar scans give at VHF. 500MHz (UHF) is still not too bad.


I'm sure DCENR has or can afford "Proper Software". However you need someone with 5 to 10 years RF planning experience. Not a fresh Graduate. Who isn't even a Communications Engineer (In RF & Telecom sense of Communications. Not the Advertising agency Joss Stick Communications Consultant that creates Campaigns)

Sponge Bob

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Eircom's NGB rollout availability thingy on their website clearly shows that eircom have properly mapped out exchange areas with full accuracy, so why the hell did the DCENR use circles??

I broadly agree with what they did. The circles had a radius of 4.5km and most exchanges cover further out than that for telephone but obviously not for broadband.

Eircom evidently have complex polygon type data on real exchange coverage areas. You can get it as part of an LLU feasibility study but it costs too much

clohamon

watty wrote: »

There ARE professional "data mapping tools". There are even free ones.

I think its ArcGIS Watty, ESRI Ireland are mentioned on the maps. As far as I remember, the Department had run up a bill of €80k+ with them for those maps by the end of 2008.

Now it seems, it all has to be done again

Sponge Bob

Another GIS tool is Enceladus from Quantum GIS.

Very good (mainly) Free GIS resource page here including the Shuttle Radar maps which is the best free 3d map of Ireland .

http://www4.uwm.edu/libraries/AGSL/agsgis/gislksQ-Tdsd.cfm

Same resources for Mac/Linux

http://www.gueritte.net/geomax.html

The NASA radar data has been resampled at 250m resolution here and it claims to be more accurate

http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/

watty

However the OSI has better 3D data. But even large Irish companies using the Shuttle data as no-one can afford the OSI data. In the USA, where they don't much believe in the "State" doing stuff, maps and elevation data are essentially free in electronic format. This makes buisiness better, ensures better planing of sewage, fibre, RF links etc. Here no-one knows where it's safe to dig. If you are a major Data Centre you better have microwave links, US, Generators etc, as someone will dig up the cables.

No joined up thinking. We can't even use Sewers for Fibre. Twelve years behind on EU water directives and nearly 1/3rd of the country on Septic Tanks?

What the NRA is doing is 50 years later than everyone else and without the service Areas. We can't run banks, stop kids in care getting killed or even do baby scans.

clohamon

An extra detail has come to hand. (page 54)

Amongst the conditions noted up the thread there is also this (in bold) below.

Broadband – Demarcation and State Aid.
Under demarcation the following issues will be addressed to ensure that there is no “double support” and in order to qualify, applicants must: -

• be living in a rural location, as defined under the Rural Development Programme
• be located outside of the areas covered by the NBS, and
• make a declaration to state that they are not party to a contract with an existing broadband service provider.
• be verified as “unserved” consumers by establishing that they are not capable of being served by existing service providers who will be given the opportunity to offer a service to the consumers in question.

The consequences for making a false declaration for the purpose of receiving money (a subsidy) would be quite serious, I would think.
So the question arises, if you no longer consider you have a contract for QoS reasons but your provider doesn't agree, whose opinion prevails?
Even if the contract is deemed to be terminated, will you be forced to allow the same provider to have another go?
If you have a mobile dongle which you use mostly whilst 'out and about' does that constitute a contract with an existing broadband (for the sake of argument) service provider.
What definitive evidence will be accepted as proof that the provider is unable to provide a service?
If the service is accepted and then deteriorates at some later stage can that contract be ditched and a different provider (satellite or other satellite) be approached?

I'm thinking messy, very very messy.

Sponge Bob

Quality is not mentioned, a contract is. You may avail if you have PAYG 3G ...even if it works

watty

What if you have VSAT?

clohamon

This Scheme seems to have been postponed again.

Mr Ryan said he would announce a new Rural Broadband Scheme in the New Year which would provide broadband access to the remaining homes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1209/breaking41.html

Update:

And the scheme itself will not now deliver until "towards the end of next year"

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/video/v/467-national-broadband-scheme/ (video)