UPC : Nicam vanishing from channels

Captain Halibut

[Analog cable/17channels/Mt. Merrion Dundrum area]

Right. e4, Living, 3e & most recently Sky1 have dropped off to mono land.
It's been a few weeks since I tried a retune, but last time I stripped out the
signal amp and fed directly into a tv - no joy. Before I take another shot at
things, is this a known problem? Exterior wiring re-done about 4/5 months ago
in this area. A technician nipped in and changed the junction box to the more
modern type; improving picture quality. Any ideas?

zilog_jones

These channels never had NICAM here in Limerick - only the 4 terrestrial channels did, which probably meant they were taking them directly off air and had no NICAM encoders of their own. I wouldn't be surprised if they are phasing out such luxuries for the analogue service - FM radio stations are going too.

Mossy Monk

Waterford never had it either from what I can remember.

Captain Halibut

Now that you've both mentioned it, I can't be certain
about Nicam on e4 or Living, but I could swear 3e
(formerly 6) had stereo, and Sky1 definately did. I'll
have another run at it soon before sending an enquiry
in to UPC/NTL. Thanks.

Infoanon

Captain Halibut wrote: »

[Analog cable/17channels/Mt. Merrion Dundrum area]

Right. e4, Living, 3e & most recently Sky1 have dropped off to mono land.
. Any ideas?

So its not just me!

Nicam has been disappearing off a lot of channels recently - its not a technical issue as far as i know just UPC....

E4 was never in nicam due to an issue with 64mhz - eventhough its now on UHF UPC did not change that to Nicam... Living/Sky/3E where in nicam until recently

Ranicand

Infoanon wrote: »

So its not just me!

Nicam has been disappearing off a lot of channels recently - its not a technical issue as far as i know just UPC....

E4 was never in nicam due to an issue with 64mhz - eventhough its now on UHF UPC did not change that to Nicam... Living/Sky/3E where in nicam until recently

My guess is they are trying to push people to digital.

Captain Halibut

Ranicand wrote: »

My guess is they are trying to push people to digital.

I thought the same, then decided it was my inner cynic.
Feck them if that's the case. Despite all of the cross/self
promotional crap you have to sit through, Sky1 and 3e
carry nearly all of my most watched shows.

Ranicand

Captain Halibut wrote: »

I thought the same, then decided it was my inner cynic.
Feck them if that's the case. Despite all of the cross/self
promotional crap you have to sit through, Sky1 and 3e
carry nearly all of my most watched shows.

Yes and you can get all the music you could ever want on 78rpm records.:D

Analog tv €24.50 a month.

Digital Value pack & Digital+ HD €27.50 a month.

47 tv channels vs 17 thats an extra 30 channels for 3 euro per month plus you have a HD DVR.

And if you don't want to stick with UPC Sky have packs from 21.50 per month.

Come on join the digital age.

Bodan

There is no change here in Waterford, we still have nicam on the same channels inwhich we always have had it on. RTE 1,2 TV3, TNAG, Sky 1 and MTV.

Captain Halibut

Ranicand wrote: »

Yes and you can get all the music you could ever want on 78rpm records.:D...

You wouldn't happen to work for them by any chance ;-)

Anyhoo, this house can be running up to 3 tellys at the
same time. Can't afford 3 set-tops.

Ranicand

Captain Halibut wrote: »

You wouldn't happen to work for them by any chance ;-)

Anyhoo, this house can be running up to 3 tellys at the
same time. Can't afford 3 set-tops.

Don't work for them I did suggest Sky also.

You still get analog cable if you go digital.

Captain Halibut

Ranicand wrote: »

..You still get analog cable if you go digital.

Damn, then I'm one sale they lost then. I never got that from their
promotional material or the reps that called to the door. Would
have been all over that like a rash otherwise - same applies had I
also bundled in broadband?

zilog_jones

If you get any sort of upgrade they're not just going to magically filter out all the analogue VHF/UHF channels. However, depending on how your signal is split between the TVs changes may have to be made if signal loss is too great for broadband or digital TV.

Captain Halibut

Thanks guys.

Anyone up for a series of queries into UPC?
I know that these threads are trawled, so
I imagine some of the surprise is gone, but
this is sloppy stuff, and while most people
won't even be aware that stereo is gone, I
sure as hell object. Don't give me that digital
argument - if you continue to sell an analog
service, you either maintain it, or you don't.

SPDUB

Just did a quick check in D12 and yes SKY1 isn't in stereo anymore or the other stations mentioned

All the other stations on analogue are still in stereo though

Captain Halibut

Just bumped into a technician outside - apparently
(in Kilmacud/Stillorgan/MMerrion area) UPC are doing
extensive work on amplifiers locally. Fingers crossed
that restores nicam soon.

Infoanon

Captain Halibut wrote: »

Just bumped into a technician outside - apparently
(in Kilmacud/Stillorgan/MMerrion area) UPC are doing
extensive work on amplifiers locally. Fingers crossed
that restores nicam soon.

Has no impact on providing NICAM - its just laziness(polite word for incompetance) by UPC - NICAM could be added back to Sky1,Living,3e at the flick of a switch...

Dardania

Maybe they're using the bandwidth used by the Nicam feed to run other services down it?

zilog_jones

NICAM is on a subcarrier of the analogue video signal, it doesn't use much bandwidth (728kbit/s, not sure of frequency bandwidth of the signal) and cannot reasonably used for anything else. DVB-C uses multiplexes of 8MHz or so for transmission.

Dardania

Odd then alright - maybe the method by which they receive the signal is different now eg if it's coming from Britain digitally now as opposed to analogue. Surely at UPC's headend they can broadcast in stereo, even if it isn't nicam...

zilog_jones

Dardania wrote: »

Odd then alright - maybe the method by which they receive the signal is different now eg if it's coming from Britain digitally now as opposed to analogue.

NICAM didn't exist on analogue satellite, and that's long gone, so they must have always had their own NICAM encoders for Sky One, etc. I don't recall NICAM ever being available on the NI terrestrial channels here in Limerick, but I could be wrong. I don't know if their microwave link (for reception from Divis or whatever) for analogue cable ever supported NICAM.

Surely at UPC's headend they can broadcast in stereo, even if it isn't nicam...

The only stereo system officially recognised for use with analogue broadcasts in the UK and Ireland is NICAM. PAL I TVs are not designed to receive any other type of stereo audio (Zweikanalton, etc.).

I think what's happened is either the NICAM encoders have failed and they thought it was not worthwhile to replace them, they no longer thought it was profitable to continue to support them, or they wanted to flog them off while they were still worth some money (certain Eastern european countries also adopted NICAM, and may be supporting analogue broadcasts for much longer).

SPDUB

zilog_jones wrote: »

I think what's happened is either the NICAM encoders have failed .....

If the one on Sky One has failed then I don't understand why they don't just swap it out and use the one that they are currently using on Sky News

The only reason I can think of them not doing that is because we really need to hear a news channel in stereo :rolleyes:

zilog_jones

If this was the case, they would probably consider the cost of relocation/reconfiguration of hardware and downtime involved is not worth it for a legacy system with no forseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised if the analogue service is gone in two years.

Infoanon

Theres a noticeable hum on 3e on UPC analogue in Dublin.

As already stated 3e is in mono on UPC so there is something amiss in the audio chain

Eric Cartman

zilog_jones wrote: »

If you get any sort of upgrade they're not just going to magically filter out all the analogue VHF/UHF channels. However, depending on how your signal is split between the TVs changes may have to be made if signal loss is too great for broadband or digital TV.

so if i get ntl broadband to my house (just broadband) and connect in a splitter ill have the 16 channels there at no extra cost ?

zilog_jones

Infoanon wrote: »

Theres a noticeable hum on 3e on UPC analogue in Dublin.

As already stated 3e is in mono on UPC so there is something amiss in the audio chain

Hum is probably caused by some earth problem somewhere along the line (possibly at the headend), you should contact UPC if you are sure the problem is not on your end (try different TV sets, etc.).

They are not going to invest in a NICAM encoder/modulator for a new channel in this day and age. You're talking in the region of €5k for an encoder, and they would need one per channel for every analogue headend in the country (except the Irish terrestrials).

Considering all the problems and shortcomings of UPC Ireland, I really think NICAM on their analogue cable services is the least of their worries!

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so if i get ntl broadband to my house (just broadband) and connect in a splitter ill have the 16 channels there at no extra cost ?

Yes, assuming the splitter does not attenuate the signal too much - get a good one with F-connectors, not some mickey mouse plastic yoke.

Captain Halibut

4e has been breaking up something rotten for a few weeks. (HDDs need a good defrag or what's up there?) This apart from no stereo. The predictions that analog will vanish soon is probably spot on. Rats. How's that freesat option for reliability? Proper audio etc?

Infoanon

zilog_jones wrote: »

They are not going to invest in a NICAM encoder/modulator for a new channel in this day and age. You're talking in the region of €5k for an encoder, and they would need one per channel for every analogue headend in the country (except the Irish terrestrials).

€5k per channel is small change to UPC - .000000012% approx of revenue - I don't think its too much for UPC to provide nicam on its channels.

Infoanon

Captain Halibut wrote: »

How's that freesat option for reliability? Proper audio etc?

Excellent from all reports - get the HD box not the SD box

zilog_jones

Infoanon wrote: »

€5k per channel is small change to UPC - .000000012% approx of revenue - I don't think its too much for UPC to provide nicam on its channels.

€5k per channel per headend (how many headends are in the country? 10-20 or more?) for a legacy system plus installation costs, maintenance costs, temporary loss of service, etc. is probably a lot more than you think and just not worth it for obsolete technology. Any money for upgrades should be spent on their digital system, which could do with it (some channels look like crap). Why are you still using analogue cable? I have it in my bedroom but rarely use it (crap PQ, not widescreen, few channels), and that TV's mono anyway so NICAM would make no improvement for me.

Infoanon

zilog_jones wrote: »

€5k per channel per headend (how many headends are in the country? 10-20 or more?) for a legacy system plus installation costs, maintenance costs, temporary loss of service, etc. is probably a lot more than you think and just not worth it for obsolete technology. Any money for upgrades should be spent on their digital system, which could do with it (some channels look like crap). Why are you still using analogue cable? I have it in my bedroom but rarely use it (crap PQ, not widescreen, few channels), and that TV's mono anyway so NICAM would make no improvement for me.

Analogue cable has one fundamental advantage over digital - multi-room - I have digital but if I want to use another TV UPC will charge me €8.50 per mth + (and thats without going into the complications of premium channels) - with analogue no charge is incurred.
Also Nicam audio is superior to the audio on digital.

I do agree with you that they need to invest in other areas but if they cannot get the basics right then I doubt they can get visual right.

zilog_jones

Infoanon wrote: »

Also Nicam audio is superior to the audio on digital.

NICAM uses 14 bit 32 kHz sampling (with companding). Assuming they're using MP2 audio on their DVB-C network that is 16-bit 48kHz sampling - if they used a decent bitrate (>224 kbit/s) it would surpass NICAM sound quality, but unfortunately in most cases they don't. However, if they got rid of the analogue channels and or changed to MPEG-4 (where they could achieve transparent compression with 160kb/s AAC audio) they won't be so limited by bandwidth. The multi-room rates will have to go down (or be free for the basic package) if they do get rid of analogue cable unless they really want to piss off customers, but as it is the analogue system is hindering progress.

Dardania

What I'd really like to see is UPC release a CAM module to put in the likes of bedroom tvs...A once off payment for this device, because lets face it you dont need a recorder in the bedroom