Cena, Orton and Triple H

bevan619

Anyone else tired of seeing these same three guys main eventing Raw? Also does anyone else think that Triple H wouldn't be main eventing if Stephanie McMahon wasn't his wife?

Diabhal Beag

I hate Cena and Orton feuds for sure. HHH would be more like Shawn Michaels is now if he wasn't married to Steph. HHH has been stale for 5 years at least in fairness and Cena for about 3 but Orton is just in that filler phase before he feuds with DiBiase

smilerf

ye im tired of seeing them but realistically who else is there?
michaels is nearing the end off he''s career
miz kofi and swagger aint ready yet
bourne is so talented but they keep jobbing him out
so you're left with henry or mvp i dont fancy watching henry in a main event
so the only one i can see is mvp

Rjd2

bevan619 wrote: »

Also does anyone else think that Triple H wouldn't be main eventing if Stephanie McMahon wasn't his wife?

Was he not world champion before he met Steph? The guy has used politics and held down careers his whole career but..... but it kills me to say, the guy would have got over without her, he had the look, great worker in his day, has lots of charisma and is very good on the mic. He is overexposed but he is far from useless.:eek:
I feel very dirty right now.:(

SlickRic

WWE have 6 legitimate draws right now.

cena, HHH, orton, taker, batista and michaels.

Taker's body is about to fall to pieces.

Michaels doesn't want the belt.

nobody complained when the belt was monopolised by HHH, Austin and The Rock.

you put your draws at the top of the card, always.

CM Punk is coming through now too.

there's as much talent around the main event scene, and gunning for the title, than ever really.

i don't think it's the personnel making it stale, it's often the storylines.

i mean f*** it, HHH and Orton were brilliant in the lead up to WM. I'd no problem with either of them in that spot, until the match.

it's just not being written well as it could be a lot of the time, mainly on Raw.

Bubs101

SlickRic wrote: »

WWE have 6 legitimate draws right now.

cena, HHH, orton, taker, batista and michaels.
.

Do they actually have any draws. I mean with those guys on top for ever and ever the PPVs still do crap. D-X reform again and it's the worst bought SS in years.

The WWE have 3 draws. The Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania and the Elimination Chamber.

michael.etc...

Bubs101 wrote: »

Do they actually have any draws. I mean with those guys on top for ever and ever the PPVs still do crap. D-X reform again and it's the worst bought SS in years.

The WWE have 3 draws. The Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania and the Elimination Chamber.

Wrestlemania as a product, is the biggest draw they've had since Steve Austin. If you look back at the buyrates, your theory is spot on. Since about 2004, the concept of Mania has been a solid draw sometimes boosted by a feud that captures people's imaginations (HHH/Batista), but not especially harmed when they don't care (HHH/Orton).

I think it's nuts to suggest that Raw's main event scene isn't stale. Cena, Orton, and HHH are all credible main eventers, but they've been billed on top against one another far too often. Cena and Orton have fought each other 11 times on PPV... while Orton and Hunter have met 17 times. Insane!

Hyndsy85

smilerf wrote: »

ye im tired of seeing them but realistically who else is there?
michaels is nearing the end off he''s career
miz kofi and swagger aint ready yet
bourne is so talented but they keep jobbing him out
so you're left with henry or mvp i dont fancy watching henry in a main event
so the only one i can see is mvp

See i dont get people saying that. They're not ready because wwe are telling you they are not ready. All the main eventers (Undertaker,Cena, HHH, Orton, Batista and Edge) have gone stale because wwe keep rehashing the same feuds.

Now people might say a Miz/Swagger/Morisson/kofi/ziggler dont have the pulling power as the main eventers do but thats because for them to become stars they need to be given time with the current main eventers and built up to be a legitimate threat.
Putting them against each other isnt going to turn them into stars. None of the current main eventers became stars all by themselves.

Cena was a popular mid carder. What got him over big( Main eventer) was his feud with Champion JBL and getting a title victory against the biggest heel at the time who had an incredibly long title reign.

Batista & Orton got to be apart of a stable with HHH and Ric Flair. We were constanly being told they were the future and their feuds with HHH later cemented their main eventer spots.

HHH joined HBK (already a wwe champion) and then became the leader of the stable when HBK retired for a few years.

Undertaker was given the title from hogan very shortly after entering wwe. If winning the title from hogan at his peak doesnt make you a main eventer nothing will.

Thank god for jericho (and to a lesser extent HBK) because he is the only big star that has matches with the mid carders and makes them look a threat.

bevan619

Rjd2 wrote: »

Was he not world champion before he met Steph? The guy has used politics and held down careers his whole career but..... but it kills me to say, the guy would have got over without her, he had the look, great worker in his day, has lots of charisma and is very good on the mic. He is overexposed but he is far from useless.:eek:
I feel very dirty right now.:(

Exactly. In his day. But that ended about 5 years ago and he got boring.

smilerf

i feel really sorry for jericho he was excellent in he's fued with michaels and given wrestler of the year only to be dumped with the big slow
granted he seems to be teaching slow a thing or two
wwe have the straps on them to elevate the tag titles imo but he really should be main eventing
3 way jericho v morrisson v punk
any takers?

JP Liz

I'd love to see HBK involved in the WWE title scene on RAW again and even be given a title run this guy can put on a great match and put over another up and coming talent maybe MVP or even bring Christian to RAW (even though i'd prefer him on SD)

At present RAW has only Cena, Orton, HHH and HBK and maybe also Big Show and Henry who could challenge for the WWE title

I think HHH would be involved in the WWE/WHC title scene even if he wasnt married to Steph maybe he wouldnt get as many title runs and matches

Rjd2

Bubs101 wrote: »

Do they actually have any draws. I mean with those guys on top for ever and ever the PPVs still do crap. D-X reform again and it's the worst bought SS in years.

The WWE have 3 draws. The Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania and the Elimination Chamber.

Right now they seem very reliant on gimmicks such as guest hosts to spike the ratings and absurdly themed PPV'S to get some buys.

When I think of how the guest hosts spiked the ratings, I think the WWE missed the chance of a lifetime. The idea that they could not give someone a monster push because it would hurt the ratings which is the standard WWE defense when accused of over reliance on the same few was out the window because they had a guaranteed audience due to the likes of Shaq not because Orton has suddenly become a huge ratings draw. Why not expose to someone different in the main event and see how they would react to that guy?

They could have really got behind someone and it would not have hurt Raw one but, but heh guys have to pay their dues don't they?.:rolleyes:

waltersobchak

smilerf wrote: »

3 way jericho v morrisson v punk

Thats waaaaaayy too good to be true, wwe would never do it..

orestes

smilerf wrote: »

3 way jericho v morrisson v punk
any takers?

If fukking only. Can we throw Evan Bourne in there too?

davrho

bevan619 wrote: »

Anyone else tired of seeing these same three guys main eventing Raw? Also does anyone else think that Triple H wouldn't be main eventing if Stephanie McMahon wasn't his wife?

Yes but i would not expect any other company to drop their top selling products so why should the wwe?

HHH is a talented guy. Like him or not you cant take that away from him. The people who fill arenas have a completely different opinion of HHH than people who believe anything they read on dirtsheets and post on internet boards. I reckon he would still be around the top card.

geeky

smilerf wrote: »

i feel really sorry for jericho he was excellent in he's fued with michaels and given wrestler of the year only to be dumped with the big slow
granted he seems to be teaching slow a thing or two
wwe have the straps on them to elevate the tag titles imo but he really should be main eventing
3 way jericho v morrisson v punk
any takers?

Second the 'too good to be true' comment - The WWE would never do something that clever.

I think putting a legit draw like Jericho in the tag team division is a smart move though - it needs some serious star power.

But to address the OP - you're right, it's horribly stale (see the HHH mega bashing thread for discussion ad nauseum). Even though trips was a good worker - and still is perfectly decent - the selfishness of how he's booked makes me feel ill. Cena I'm more inclined to put up with because he actually takes some offense and sells tons of merchandise - which explains why he's at the top of the card.

rossie1977

i cannot see bourne ever getting a push to the top, just too generic for me and unlike mysterio who exactly does he appeal to??

the problem in wwe (outside the lame storylines or lack of any real storylines) is that too many guys on top are unwilling to lose their spots. the best thing that could happen to wwe would be to see HHH, HBK, batista and taker retire within the next year (not going to happen of course), then vince would have to push others into those spots like back at the start of the attitude era when loads of spots on the top of the card became available when nash, hall and bret went south and hbk retired

davrho

I think your looking at this Rosie from a romantic notion and not a business point of view. Everything in the wwe comes down to the balance sheet. The way the company is run has changed hugely in the last 10 years.

The reason the guys are at the top is that they are selling. If customers stop buying the top guys in the roster they will lose their spots. Another aspect is as you say these guys will probably retire soon so business wise its important to milk as much cash from them as possible. It does not make for good entertainment.

I dont see any organisation in the world dropping their best selling products.

Rjd2

davrho wrote: »

I think your looking at this Rosie from a romantic notion and not a business point of view. Everything in the wwe comes down to the balance sheet. The way the company is run has changed hugely in the last 10 years.

The reason the guys are at the top is that they are selling. If customers stop buying the top guys in the roster they will lose their spots. Another aspect is as you say these guys will probably retire soon so business wise its important to milk as much cash from them as possible. It does not make for good entertainment.
.

Except PPV'S.
The top guys especially the Raw super trio are overexposed right now. I don’t mind the likes of Edge, Tista, Stephs husband, Taker and co headlining but every PPV they are facing each other.
The top PPV’S are suffering judging by the awful Summerslam buyrate, their encounters should be rare and kept for the big PPV’ S when it actually would mean something.

sky88

i dont think its stale just because its the same 3 its because the storylines just have not been good enough th attitude era was the same people on top but the majority of the storylines were great now there just poor with exception of a few like jericho/hbk, taker/hbk, rey/jericho and orton /triple h wrestlemania build have been the only really good storylines to me in recent times

davrho

Plenty folk stealing them though. Folk looking for links to ppv's is one of yahoo's and googles biggest search count every ppv.

If folk are not interested why are they bothering trying to watch it?

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

Plenty folk stealing them though. Folk looking for links to ppv's is one of yahoo's and googles biggest search count every ppv.

If folk are not interested why are they bothering trying to watch it?

I think the fact that they cost between $40-$50 really doesn't help them. In these times (and pretty much most times) that is horribly over-priced especially for 'B' PPV's.

davrho

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I think the fact that they cost between $40-$50 really doesn't help them. In these times (and pretty much most times) that is horribly over-priced especially for 'B' PPV's.

I agree 100% that the price is out of order in the states. Last time i was in Orlando and the Hooters(airport) was jam packed with folk in for the ppv. Most i spoke to said they were better off coming down having a few beers and enjoy a bit of atmosphere than pay for it in the house. Three of us spent 70$ between us and a good night out rather than spend more or less the same to get it on the tv.

When you can pick up the dvd's for under $20 a month or so later it makes it look even less attractive

Bubs101

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I think the fact that they cost between $40-$50 really doesn't help them. In these times (and pretty much most times) that is horribly over-priced especially for 'B' PPV's.

That's nonsense. UFC is doing the best business a company has ever done with the same prices on PPV. The product is just weak

Machismo Fan

Bubs101 wrote: »

That's nonsense. UFC is doing the best business a company has ever done with the same prices on PPV. The product is just weak

I don't agree, regardless of whether people pay or not, $40-$50 is exploitive especially for what can be considered a 'B' show. $30 would be much more reasonable and I'd imagine WWE's PPV buyrate would increase substantially if they dropped the price (and the idea that HD is $10 more expensive, that's ludicrous).

davrho

Bubs101 wrote: »

That's nonsense. UFC is doing the best business a company has ever done with the same prices on PPV. The product is just weak

How many hours of UFC programming do you get on tv in the US? Dont really want to go down this route though as i dont find them related products.

Why are folk stealing wwe in bigger numbers than ever before? The price is a big put off in the states. When you speak with American fans and tell them we get every second ppv free(well through our sky subscriptions) and its only 22euro a show they think we are lucky feckers.

Bubs101

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I don't agree, regardless of whether people pay or not, $40-$50 is exploitive especially for what can be considered a 'B' show. $30 would be much more reasonable and I'd imagine WWE's PPV buyrate would increase substantially if they dropped the price (and the idea that HD is $10 more expensive, that's ludicrous).

It may be more reasonable but people are clearly willing to pay for a product if they see it as any good. Not enough people see the WWE as any good at the moment to pay for it. it's not overpriced if people have been willing in the past to pay that price and are still paying that price for the most similar sporting events there are. The UFC and boxing

davrho wrote: »

How many hours of UFC programming do you get on tv in the US? Dont really want to go down this route though as i dont find them related products.

Why are folk stealing wwe in bigger numbers than ever before? The price is a big put off in the states. When you speak with American fans and tell them we get every second ppv free(well through our sky subscriptions) and its only 22euro a show they think we are lucky feckers.

You don't get nearly as much but that doesn't matter. Pay per view numbers for wrestling were sky high when there was Thunder, Nitro, ECW, Smackdown, Raw and Heat. They were only sky high for the company with the best product though

Why are people stealing music in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing films in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing porn in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing TV shows from subscription chanels like HBO in bigger numbers than ever before etc. etc. etc. etc. Maybe because more people have better access and bandwith to the net and the technology is constantly improving while the disincentives are not

G-Money

Is it a bit sad that The Rock's promo on SD the other week was better than any that's been on Raw or SD for the last while?

I agree, I'm getting a bit sick of seeing Cena, Orton and HHH all fight each other in different configurations. Having said that, they are the top guys and they are talented. I just wish some others were involved too.

davrho

Bubs101 wrote: »

It may be more reasonable but people are clearly willing to pay for a product if they see it as any good. Not enough people see the WWE as any good at the moment to pay for it. it's not overpriced if people have been willing in the past to pay that price and are still paying that price for the most similar sporting events there are. The UFC and boxing



You don't get nearly as much but that doesn't matter. Pay per view numbers for wrestling were sky high when there was Thunder, Nitro, ECW, Smackdown, Raw and Heat. They were only sky high for the company with the best product though

Why are people stealing music in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing films in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing porn in bigger numbers than ever before, why are people stealing TV shows from subscription chanels like HBO in bigger numbers than ever before etc. etc. etc. etc. Maybe because more people have better access and bandwith to the net and the technology is constantly improving while the disincentives are not

How come they buy the dvds in huge numbers if the product is not seen as any good?

Of course it matters its market saturation and when there are 4 different shows to watch for free then paying $60 dollars every few weeks is a joke. Its hard to compare like with like by bringing up Nitro etc because at that time wrestling was a fad and the media darling with everyone jumping on the bandwagon. People are sheep and do what the media tell then to do. Wrestling is no longer is their baby. Folk move on to whatever gets bummed up next. The old wrestling videos of the atitude era are in the cupboard with the bmx and the skateboard.

I would use your last paragraph as part of my argument. Why pay for a ppv if you can get it for nothing(even though i buy most). So your admitting the ppv's are still being watched just not being paid for. Just like movies,music and porn.

Bubs101

davrho wrote: »

How come they buy the dvds in huge numbers if the product is not seen as any good? .

For one, wrestling is in large part a nostalgic sport. More so than any other I've seen. Everyone always talks about how good it used to be. Like the Rise and fall of ECW is one of the best selling DVDs (I think could be wrong here) they have produced but nobody watched ECW when it was out at first. Secondly, people under 18 don't in general buy PPV's because they don't pay the bill but they buy DVDs by the truckload because their XBox or PS3 will play them

davrho wrote: »

Of course it matters its market saturation and when there are 4 different shows to watch for free then paying $60 dollars every few weeks is a joke. Its hard to compare like with like by bringing up Nitro etc because at that time wrestling was a fad and the media darling with everyone jumping on the bandwagon. People are sheep and do what the media tell then to do. Wrestling is no longer is their baby. Folk move on to whatever gets bummed up next. The old wrestling videos of the atitude era are in the cupboard with the bmx and the skateboard..

It's not market saturation. If it wasn't market saturation then and there's about the same amount of wrestling on TV now while other similar sports are doing very well and Wrestlemania continues to do extremely well then it's not market saturation. It's a very very poor product

davrho wrote: »

I would use your last paragraph as part of my argument. Why pay for a ppv if you can get it for nothing(even though i buy most). So your admitting the ppv's are still being watched just not being paid for. Just like movies,music and porn

You don't understand. Illegal downloading hasn't hurt any visual buisiness that much. Porn has actually grown from it. The Dark Knight is the 4th biggest grossing movie of all time and that was released last year. More people are downloading music now but music is a different medium and it too has taken to it now as well and learnt to make money from the internet. In general what has been proven is that the people who download something would never pay for it if it weren't available for free. A number above 90%.

*I'm not sure how allowed this bit is but I don't think it's crossing any lines*

There are very very few dedicated proffesional wrestling tracking sites and if you look at one of the biggest ones, isohunt, and search for one of the biggest WWE releases this year, Macho Madness, there is no way to download it. No seeders. You can still find Pride Fighting Championship PPVs on that site and that company went out of business a few years ago and the UFC (who bought the library) still have enough confidence to put it out on TV in a form of a highlights show later this year

davrho

Similiar sport? Where do you get this from. Pro wrestling has never been a sport and never will be.
You could twist your argument by saying look how good wwe has done compared to Karate(fad, fuelled by the Karate Kid films)),Kick Boxing(fad, fuelled by pishy martial arts films) and the rest of the martial arts that came and went.

A poor poor product thats one of the most popular products around. Just because its not your taste it is not a poor product. See the nostalgia your on about does this not come into play here?

See what happened 10 years ago. These where not wrestling fans. They blew in ,believed the crap in the papers, seen on the tv and have moved on. It is not realistic to compare now and then.



Of course wretlemania sells well. Its the christmas party of events. Folk who wont come out for a jar all year but are the first on the list for the big night out. The beer still tastes the same you just like it a lot or dont.

Not hurt it that much there are warnings and adverts every time you go to the cinema about recording equipment? Why would they bother if it did not effect business?

Rjd2

But the E have got on top of streaming so thats not a valid excuse for their PPV'S struggling. Summerslam done a horrible buyrate compared to last year and that was before Vince decided that the streaming issue needed to be sorted. The UFC PPV'S are streamed illegally as well, and its not hurting them.

Bubs101

davrho wrote: »

Similiar sport? Where do you get this from. Pro wrestling has never been a sport and never will be.
You could twist your argument by saying look how good wwe has done compared to Karate(fad, fuelled by the Karate Kid films)),Kick Boxing(fad, fuelled by pishy martial arts films) and the rest of the martial arts that came and went.

A poor poor product thats one of the most popular products around. Just because its not your taste it is not a poor product. See the nostalgia your on about does this not come into play here?

How can you not call them similar products. UFC, Boxing and Wrestling are in the same bracket. They're the leading exponents of combat sports in the world. Fair enough, wrestling's not a sport but until recently it presented itself as a legitimate competition and when the biggest draw in those 3 is a former WWE champ with only 5 fights in his chosen profession how can you not see the crossover. Seriously. What about Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Sakuraba, Don Frye, Daniel Puder, Frank Trigg, Tito Ortiz and Lashley. TNA have even promoted a few "MMA" matches and are trying to make Joe out to be a legit fighter

As for the WWE being a good product ATM don't see how anybody could claim that. The reason it's popular is because wrestling won't just die because there are too many fans, TNA is worse and no other product has the same exposure. WWE has no strong competition so people who still crave wrestling will watch it. The people who used to crave wrestling however have moved on to a stronger product in the UFC

davrho wrote: »

See what happened 10 years ago. These where not wrestling fans. They blew in ,believed the crap in the papers, seen on the tv and have moved on. It is not realistic to compare now and then.

Explain to me how people who watched the shows, bought the PPV and wore the T-shirts were not fans. Please. Just because your a wrestling fan doesn't mean you should watch crap wrestling. I'm a football fan but I'd never watch the LOI

davrho wrote: »

Of course wretlemania sells well. Its the christmas party of events. Folk who wont come out for a jar all year but are the first on the list for the big night out. The beer still tastes the same you just like it a lot or dont.

Not hurt it that much there are warnings and adverts every time you go to the cinema about recording equipment? Why would they bother if it did not effect business?

Regardless of why Wrestlemania sells well it still shows that WWE PPV's can. No Way Out isn't a marquee name but that has posted massive numbers in the past two years because of a strong build.

Because it has the potential to effect business and it still does in a small way but the fact is DVD sales are higher than ever and film attendance is just as strong as it has been since the TV came out

davrho

Why would anyone stream a ppv if everyones paid for it? If there are people watching streams they are being hurt.

Loads of streams for every wwe ppv. The other wrestling site i use i think i am the only clown that pays for them.

davrho

They are not in the same bracket. Pro wrestling the aim is to put on a show and not injure each other.It is not a sport. Boxing and mma is to punch/kick the living crap out each other. It is a sport where the best man wins with not a predetermined outcome. The biggest draw also played american football. Similiar sport?

You dont see how anyone could claim that. Tell that to folk with kids who can sit them infront of the tv for hours and relax.

It was a fad pushed by media. All the sheep followed and watched. They came and left. It happened with bmx bikes and skateboard. They were fans till the next big thing came along. You think these folk like these are customers for life? Football fan. Dont tell me ,the Premiership. Now the media say its great but utter crap like Stoke, Blackburn,Bolton,Burnley, Birmingham etc all play here The mid card is not bad but never break through .The top teams are always given top billing and highlighted the most. Reminds me of something?

DVD sales are higher than ever because they cost about 6 euro 2 months after they are released.

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

They are not in the same bracket. Pro wrestling the aim is to put on a show and not injure each other.It is not a sport. Boxing and mma is to punch/kick the living crap out each other. It is a sport where the best man wins with not a predetermined outcome. The biggest draw also played american football. Similiar sport?

Pro Wrestling is (normally) presented as two (or more) guys who have a reason to fight, that reason is promoted and the two (or more) fight. It's the same with UFC and Boxing. The concept is the same so they are comparable sports (for want of a better term).

Bubs101

davrho wrote: »

They are not in the same bracket. Pro wrestling the aim is to put on a show and not injure each other.It is not a sport. Boxing and mma is to punch/kick the living crap out each other. It is a sport where the best man wins with not a predetermined outcome. The biggest draw also played american football. Similiar sport?.

How was Lesner the biggest draw in American football. I don't even think he started a game. If it was a similar sport he would have been pushed to high heaven and Mongo McMicheals would have been a bigger star

davrho wrote: »

You dont see how anyone could claim that. Tell that to folk with kids who can sit them infront of the tv for hours and relax.

An electronic babysitter is not a good product.

davrho wrote: »

It was a fad pushed by media. All the sheep followed and watched. They came and left. It happened with bmx bikes and skateboard. They were fans till the next big thing came along. You think these folk like these are customers for life? Football fan. Dont tell me ,the Premiership. Now the media say its great but utter crap like Stoke, Blackburn,Bolton,Burnley, Birmingham etc all play here The mid card is not bad but never break through .The top teams are always given top billing and highlighted the most. Reminds me of something??.

It wasn't a fad pushed by the media. It became really popular because it was good and the media joined in on the war. It wasn't that big. If you say Monday night wars to a non wrestling fan they won't have a clue. If you say Oasis vs. Blur to a deaf guy he'll know what your talking about. That was a conflict pushed by the media. And in actual fact I'm a religious Juve fan so I follow Serie A where Sampdoria have pushed there way to the top of the table and AC Milan and Roma are doing ****e.

davrho wrote: »

DVD sales are higher than ever because they cost about 6 euro 2 months after they are released.

they were just as cheap 2 years ago when people had more money. Picked up Firefly for 15 quid in store 3 years ago.

PS. please quote my posts so I don't have to go rummaging to see what your point is

davrho

Bubs101 wrote: »

How was Lesner the biggest draw in American football. I don't even think he started a game. If it was a similar sport he would have been pushed to high heaven and Mongo McMicheals would have been a bigger star

Who said he was the biggest draw. I only mentioned he played american football as i reckon thats unrelated too. Can someone put up the definiton of sport and you will see predetermined outcomes are not part of sport. The comparison ends there.

Bubs101 wrote: »

An electronic babysitter is not a good product.

So you have neve sat down with your boys and watched the wrestling. Dont know what your missing.

Bubs101 wrote: »

It wasn't a fad pushed by the media. It became really popular because it was good and the media joined in on the war. It wasn't that big. If you say Monday night wars to a non wrestling fan they won't have a clue. If you say Oasis vs. Blur to a deaf guy he'll know what your talking about. That was a conflict pushed by the media. And in actual fact I'm a religious Juve fan so I follow Serie A where Sampdoria have pushed there way to the top of the table and AC Milan and Roma are doing ****e.

The amount of money thrown(and susequently pissed away) by the media was frightening. Turner used his own outlets to bum it up to feck. Fair play to you mate for following decent football and not falling for the premiership myth. I dont watch football that much anymore because of the way the sport(sometimes i doubt that) has went.
[/quote]

Bubs101 wrote: »

they were just as cheap 2 years ago when people had more money. Picked up Firefly for 15 quid in store 3 years ago.

PS. please quote my posts so I don't have to go rummaging to see what your point is

Yes but folk would have been out more and not spent as much on in home entertainment. No need for them.

ps i always make an arse of quoting as this post will probably prove:)