Fee's scrapped (for now)

highlydebased

Good news, fair play to the green's anyway...I'm in a good mood after this!

THE Greens last night won a guarantee there will be no college fees in return for staying in power with Fianna Fail for the next two-and-ahalf years

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/its-a-deal-1910064.html

Lawliet

Ah I knew there was a reason I liked the greens, I just hope this isn't an empty promise.

soccymonster

so are the fees out for good?

bythewoods

Excellent news!!

Seeing as I picked one of the most expensive courses and such.

HQvhs

They're not gone. We can expect further increases in registration fees, exam fees, IT fees etc as colleges try to make up the funding shortfall.
In fact, it looks like we've cemented the worst option. Instead of a deferred loan system where we can pay back the cost of our education once we graduate, we will now continue to charge reg fees and other costs on cash strapped families and students.

Anyway, take a look at the original programme for Government from 2007. There were very few promises kept from that. Don't expect this to be any different.

Swizz

bythewoods wrote: »

Excellent news!!

Seeing as I picked one of the most expensive courses and such.

What course if you dont mind me asking?

Bigdeadlydave

Hopefully the government will collapse today.

bythewoods

Swizz wrote: »

What course if you dont mind me asking?

I'm doing Medicine in Trinners.
Aparently the fees are quite something.

highlydebased

HQvhs wrote: »

They're not gone. We can expect further increases in registration fees, exam fees, IT fees etc as colleges try to make up the funding shortfall.
In fact, it looks like we've cemented the worst option. Instead of a deferred loan system where we can pay back the cost of our education once we graduate, we will now continue to charge reg fees and other costs on cash strapped families and students.

Anyway, take a look at the original programme for Government from 2007. There were very few promises kept from that. Don't expect this to be any different.

Personally I'd prefer to pay an increased registration or whatever, as opposed to paying off 30,000+ euro for college fee's as a tax when I start working, earning a miserable wage, already taxed rediculoulsly, living off grass......

doug.irl.92

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Hopefully the government will collapse today.

+1
God I can't wait for the greens end up like the PD's and we're rid of FF:mad::mad: for at least the next 10 years!!! Lets hope it's sooner rather than later!

At end of the day this notion of no fees doesn't really matter unless the government falls as they will just find another way to tax us!!!

HQvhs

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer to pay an increased registration or whatever, as opposed to paying off 30,000+ euro for college fee's as a tax when I start working, earning a miserable wage, already taxed rediculoulsly, living off grass......

But the difference is that, in the majority of cases, the parents of students pay the registration fees. Thus, any increase in registration fees would hit parents. This isn't particularly fair as it is their children who are benefiting most from third level education. And it means that children of cash-strapped families face an additional obstacle to attending third level education.

Scrapping the reg fee and introducing a deferred payment scheme would ensure that students themselves pay for their degrees. And it would reduce the barriers to attending college that face many young people today.

I know I'd rather pay when I get a job rather than let my parents foot the bill.

Shane101

HQvhs wrote: »

But the difference is that, in the majority of cases, the parents of students pay the registration fees. Thus, any increase in registration fees would hit parents. This isn't particularly fair as it is their children who are benefiting most from third level education. And it means that children of cash-strapped families face an additional obstacle to attending third level education.

Scrapping the reg fee and introducing a deferred payment scheme would ensure that students themselves pay for their degrees. And it would reduce the barriers to attending college that face many young people today.

I know I'd rather pay when I get a job rather than let my parents foot the bill.

Agreed, well said.

Fad

HQvhs wrote: »

But the difference is that, in the majority of cases, the parents of students pay the registration fees. Thus, any increase in registration fees would hit parents. This isn't particularly fair as it is their children who are benefiting most from third level education. And it means that children of cash-strapped families face an additional obstacle to attending third level education.

Scrapping the reg fee and introducing a deferred payment scheme would ensure that students themselves pay for their degrees. And it would reduce the barriers to attending college that face many young people today.

Reg fees will never go away, I would be willing to put money on them being on top of fees that will be paid at a later date.

There is a grant system in place*, those whose families who cannot afford reg fees, get grants.

*I know it's absolutely ****e, I learned this first hand.

Dont want to make your parents pay? Get a job and work all summer

mikemac

Fad wrote: »

Reg fees will never go away, I would be willing to put money on them being on top of fees that will be paid at a later date.

There is a grant system in place*, those whose families who cannot afford reg fees, get grants.

*I know it's absolutely ****e, I learned this first hand.

It's true
I got a college grant. You paid the registration fee and then claim it back.

The grants system is open for anyone to apply to. It's means tested though.
And if you are self-employed you have to submit accounts

And the amount of money from the grant isn't much at all. Even with a grant I was working every summer and saving like mad.
You certainly can't live on the grant alone!

Fad

mikemac wrote: »

It's true
I got a college grant. You paid the registration fee and then claim it back.

The grants system is open for anyone to apply to. It's means tested though.
And if you are self-employed you have to submit accounts

And the amount of money from the grant isn't much at all. Even with a grant I was working every summer and saving like mad.
You certainly can't live on the grant alone!

The way in which it's means tested is problematic to say the least.......

I'm under no illusions as to how much the grant is worth, I know it is not enough to live off, but I dont think it's even intended to be enough.

Aoifums

HQvhs wrote: »

Scrapping the reg fee and introducing a deferred payment scheme would ensure that students themselves pay for their degrees. And it would reduce the barriers to attending college that face many young people today.

I can't see that working for the longterm. So 10 years after you finish your course, you're still trying to pay off your fees. What happens if you want to get married and start a family? You'll have pay off the loan as well as a mortgage plus any loans you've gotten in those 10 years. Thats putting an entire family in debt.

I can only see it turning people away from college. Having a massive loan hanging over you for several years would turn many people away.

HQvhs

Aoifums wrote: »

I can't see that working for the longterm. So 10 years after you finish your course, you're still trying to pay off your fees. What happens if you want to get married and start a family? You'll have pay off the loan as well as a mortgage plus any loans you've gotten in those 10 years. Thats putting an entire family in debt.

I can only see it turning people away from college. Having a massive loan hanging over you for several years would turn many people away.

It works in many other countries. For instance Australia, the UK, the States etc. No one was suggesting massive loans. The figure was roughly €5000 p/y for an arts degree to €7-8000 for medicine and the like. There was even talk of rolling the registration fee into that so that you basically take one loan out for the whole thing. This would come to 25-50000 debt at the end of your course roughly. (50000 being the cost of medicine for instance).
Anyway, how else are we going to be able to fund our universities? At least this way it's the students who pay after they graduate. So there is less pressure all around and increased access too.

Also, most people don't start to settle down until their late twenties, and graduate in their early twenties. And I believe one of the ideas that was being thrown around was that you would only start to make repayments once you reached a certain income level.

Anyway, this is all academic tbh. There is no way FF will keep their promise. And Fine Gael have pledged to introduce a deferred payment scheme too. Free fees will be a thing of the past fairly soon.

Now, whilst this is not a small sum it's hardly a mortgage. The reason peopel go to college is to earn a qualification so that they may find better employment. There is a financial gain to be made by going to university.
For instance, I'm doing medicine and I will be earning a lot more once I leave college than I would if I had decided not to go to college. It's only fair I should have to at least make a contribution towards the cost of my education at some stage.

No one was ever advocating an American type system whereby you pay the *entire* cost of your degree. Med school grads in the States can come away with debts of up to half a million dollars, if not more. Ditto for law school graduates.

The biggest obstacle to going to university, aside from the entrance requirements, is the initial financial cost.

highlydebased

It might work in Australia or the states or Europe, but you probably find that firstly they pay much less (probably the cost of our registration fee) and secondly Irish universities stand more prestigous (in my mind at least) than the UK etc in general (apart from a few). Fee's will put alot of people off, including myself, and hence we will be left with a generally less attractive and less skilled workforce after a few years of it.

Lawliet

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Fee's will put alot of people off, including myself, and hence we will be left with a generally less attractive and less skilled workforce after a few years of it.

Plus there's the thing that in the current economic climate, I can't see a lot of banks willing to give €5000 loans every year to thousands of students, when they know they're not going to see a cent of that money for another 4+ years.

HQvhs

Neon-Circles wrote: »

It might work in Australia or the states or Europe, but you probably find that firstly they pay much less (probably the cost of our registration fee) and secondly Irish universities stand more prestigous (in my mind at least) than the UK etc in general (apart from a few). Fee's will put alot of people off, including myself, and hence we will be left with a generally less attractive and less skilled workforce after a few years of it.

Actually afaik in Australia anyway they pay about 5-7000 € per year. (Don't quote me on that though) And wages in general are a lot higher here. The UK has some of the best universities in the world, along with the states. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, John Hopkins, MIT, Stanford, St. Andrews, UCL, LSE etc etc etc. The list goes on. Universities there are far better funded and can attract more research funds, more doctorate students, better lecturers, and better facilities.

There was a study done a year or two ago which showed that the removal of third level fees did not significantly increase the participation rate of people from low income backgrounds in third level education.

Lawliet wrote: »

Plus there's the thing that in the current economic climate, I can't see a lot of banks willing to give €5000 loans every year to thousands of students, when they know they're not going to see a cent of that money for another 4+ years.

Most of these schemes are government run so the government arranges the loans (usually with very low interest rates).

the_syco

HQvhs wrote: »

There was a study done a year or two ago which showed that the removal of third level fees did not significantly increase the participation rate of people from low income backgrounds in third level education.

I'm aware of this, that even with no fee "barrier" and a grant system in place, that the amount of people from low income backgrounds did not increase. But if the barrier came back, would it affect the middle income families? Too rich to get a grant, too poor to be able to pay back a loan. €30,000 for a degree course, and that does not include rent, food, college materials, etc.

The smart ecomony that the politicans hoped would bring us out of the recession would take longer to be built, as many wouldn't be able to get the loans to gain access to college.

HQvhs

the_syco wrote: »

I'm aware of this, that even with no fee "barrier" and a grant system in place, that the amount of people from low income backgrounds did not increase. But if the barrier came back, would it affect the middle income families? Too rich to get a grant, too poor to be able to pay back a loan. €30,000 for a degree course, and that does not include rent, food, college materials, etc.

The smart ecomony that the politicans hoped would bring us out of the recession would take longer to be built, as many wouldn't be able to get the loans to gain access to college.

I'm aware of all that. However a deferred payment scheme, whereby you only begin to make repayments once you have reached a certain income level is much fairer than the current system, means a person's ability to attend third level is not determined by their parents income and also provides an extra motivation to work hard at your degree because *you* will be paying for it.

Of course there are other costs involved such as books, accomodation, living expenses etc. However, these exist anyway. And a decent grants system would ensure that people from low income families can attend college far from home.

In a perfect world I would love all education to be completely free and that all our universities were awash with funding and state of the art facilities.

However, we live in the real world, in difficult financial circumstances (That will, over time, improve). And our third level institutions are crying out for funding and resources. As such, we have to pay for them somehow. And the fairest and best way (in terms of maintaining access to third level education) is for a deferred payment scheme.

In the short run we may all be happy that the Greens have kept our free fees. But there's an opportunity cost to this. Whether in reduced availability of resources to our colleges due to less funding. Or perhaps less money available for the primary and secondary education sectors.