Will an enlisted man ever reach Lt.Col.

time lord

I guess not but would love to be wrong.

Local-womanizer

time lord wrote: »

I guess not but would love to be wrong. (I.D.F.)

I dont really have much interest in the Israeli Defence Forces tbh;)

pmg58

Unlikely, since AFAIK officers that are commissioned from the ranks are limited to certain duties, generally more "staff" than "command". Although I have to way to back that up because I haven't a clue how I know it.

Pleo

In a typical cadet class, how many are previous NCOs and ptes from the pdf? Also is a potential officers course different to cadets training or incorporated? Does anyone know of an RDF officer who joined the cadets?

pmg58

Potential officers course is very different to cadets, there was an article about it in an cosantoir a while back. I don't think there is a typical number of former PDF enlisted in a cadet class, but I'd say on average one or two at most, although thats a guess. I think 15 serving personnel applied for the Army cadetship this year...how many of those are still in the competition, I have no idea.

goldie fish

If direct entrants can do it why not enlisted? Seems to me the only stumbling block is their age(in the past) and they reaced retirement age round the same time they reach commandant.

Some years ago my units CO was comissioned from the ranks. He had many overseas postings as a commandant, but because he was commissioned when he was a thirtysomething sergeant, didn't have the time to go further.

dahamster

Pleo wrote: »

Does anyone know of an RDF officer who joined the cadets?

There was one in my recruit platoon if thats any good for ya.

Pleo

time lord wrote: »

Will an enlisted man ever reach Lt.Col.

look at your question, you are so sexist :eek::eek::eek:

concussion

In the Irish DF, wherever 'man' is used it is understood to mean 'woman' aswell.

Poccington

Pleo wrote: »

look at your question, you are so sexist :eek::eek::eek:

Don't be ridiculous.

Pleo

Sigmund Freud would beg to the differ

Poccington

Pleo wrote: »

Sigmund Freud would beg to the differ

Well I've yet to see Sigmund Freud do a barrack guard so he can ask my bollocks.

pmg58

goldie fish wrote: »

If direct entrants can do it why not enlisted? Seems to me the only stumbling block is their age(in the past) and they reaced retirement age round the same time they reach commandant.

Some years ago my units CO was comissioned from the ranks. He had many overseas postings as a commandant, but because he was commissioned when he was a thirtysomething sergeant, didn't have the time to go further.

Good point, now that i think of it the restrictions might only apply to senior NCOs who get commissioned as a Captain (more or less).

I get the feeling that there might be an element of Cadet School officers looking out for each other in it. Mores the pity, I know a CFR officer who puts most of the Cadet School graduates to shame.

mega man

how far would someone expect to rise if they joined the cadets at 27 with a degree?

superref

time lord wrote: »

I guess not but would love to be wrong.

No because enlisted personnell who get comissioned through the ranks and become lt's can only reach the rank of Commandant !

pmg58

superref wrote: »

No because enlisted personnell who get comissioned through the ranks and become lt's can only reach the rank of Commandant !

Can you back that up?

Poccington

mega man wrote: »

how far would someone expect to rise if they joined the cadets at 27 with a degree?

In theory, you could make Chief of Staff. It's all down to how you let your career work out.

Poccington

pmg58 wrote: »

Can you back that up?

Although I can't quote it from any DFR's etc. I too have always been told Enlisted Personnel can only reach Commandant when comissioned.

mega man

Poccington wrote: »

In theory, you could make Chief of Staff. It's all down to how you let your career work out.

How does a guy make Chief of Staff? Is it all about who you know? Who appoints him/her?

pmg58

mega man wrote: »

How does a guy make Chief of Staff? Is it all about who you know? Who appoints him/her?

Political appointment I think. Which probably answers your first two questions as well.

mega man

pmg58 wrote: »

Political appointment I think. Which probably answers your first two questions as well.

Politics ehhh?

Milk & Honey

There was an enlisted man promoted to Lt. Col in recent years. His name was Pat Coughlan from the CIS corps. It was reported in the papers that he was the first.
In the past the rigid seniority system made it impossible for enlisted men to reach Lt./ Col. Even some ex cadets did not reach Lt. Col. Promotions were done cadet class by cadet class in order of commissioning. Within cadet classes seniority was decided by the marks in the exams completed during cadet training. In order to be promoted Lt. Col an officer had to become the most senior commandant in the army before reaching the age of 56. This was a process which since the end of the emergency in 1945 took at least 30 years. An enlisted man aged over 26 on commissioning would thus never acquire the seniority.
Since the introduction of the interview system there is now scope for the leapfrogging of those commissioned earlier.

testicle

Pleo wrote: »

Sigmund Freud would beg to the differ

The Defence Act begs to differ. I think that over-rides a corpse.

superref

pmg58 wrote: »

Can you back that up?

not in writing but a commandant i know and (yes i am a serving member)who was commissioned through the ranks said to me he can go no further than commandant !!

concussion

Like Poccington, I can't find anything in writing but I believe those commissioned from the ranks via a Potential Officers Course have a 'ceiling' as they do not complete the same modules as those going through a cadetship. This year, 15 serving members applied for cadetships and I suspect that while they will not have a rank restriction, the older ones may be on the wrong side of the age curve when it comes to attaining the higher ranks.

Delancey

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There was an enlisted man promoted to Lt. Col in recent years. His name was Pat Coughlan from the CIS corps. It was reported in the papers that he was the first.
In the past the rigid seniority system made it impossible for enlisted men to reach Lt./ Col. Even some ex cadets did not reach Lt. Col. Promotions were done cadet class by cadet class in order of commissioning. Within cadet classes seniority was decided by the marks in the exams completed during cadet training. In order to be promoted Lt. Col an officer had to become the most senior commandant in the army before reaching the age of 56. This was a process which since the end of the emergency in 1945 took at least 30 years. An enlisted man aged over 26 on commissioning would thus never acquire the seniority.
Since the introduction of the interview system there is now scope for the leapfrogging of those commissioned earlier.

Surely the above process was guaranteed to ensure ' mediocrity in seniority ' if you get my meaning , also surely guaranteed to ensure low morale ?

DublinDes

Would anyone have a rough idea what proportion of privates make it to officer ? Would it be 1 in 300/400 or whatever ?

concussion

It's not really a question of 'making it' to officer. A better question would be how many make it to Battalion Sergeant Major which is the highest an enlisted man can be promoted. If enlisted men wish to become commissioned officers they either enter on of the annual Cadet Competitions complete a Potential Officers course which draws applicants solely from the PDF. The last Potential Officers course was completed in 2008 with 25 students passing. However, it was only the 9th course run with the previous one being in 1999.

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Speech+ID/C69511D73A136A88802574640051F075?OpenDocument

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Speech+ID/828684976436F91F80256C610036879A?OpenDocument

bigdogbarking

are commissions still being offered for sale? i know they were at one time, you could buy a commission but don't know any of the ins and outs of it,

pmg58

The british army stopped doing that almost a century and a half ago.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_commissions for the ins and outs of it.

kowloon

Most western military establishments engage to some degree in the gentleman officer system, prefering to draw officers as cadets over promotion from the ranks.
I had to do a bit of reading on it last year, can't say I found the subject very interesting, but the general concensus was that the current system was bad for efficiency and morale and tended to produce junior officers serving in positions that were seen merely as on the job training, i.e. the stereotypical clueless lieutenant.

I don't know how relevant all of it is to the PDF though, as I'm studying in the UK, and the only non-British material I get is usually American.

There was a lot of talk about how the officer - enlisted dynamic was the product of a class system that doesn't really exist anymore, although I imagine that view is more accurate in Britain. I like to think that Ireland has always been a bit more egalitarian.

OS119

i'm fairly sure i've recently read something official which said that some 10% of British Army regular officers have previous enlisted service - that would tally with my own observations...

not absolutely sure about the nature of the 'previous enlisted service' - i assume it would include TA service before regular commissioning as well as regular, non-commissioned service.

kowloon

I think a fair percentage of the students in my course are in the UOTC, quite a few of the mature students were in the TA before coming to college.

bleedinrapidbud

mega man wrote: »

how far would someone expect to rise if they joined the cadets at 27 with a degree?

If your 27 now you should hurry up and get yourself in there cause 28 is the cut off point for cadetships.

If you have a degree you can get direct entry depending on what the degree is in!!

time lord

It looks like age and the frequency of P.O. courses is a real problem. In a small modern army maybe the Israeli, or Garda way is best. All start at the bottom rank.

pmg58

time lord wrote: »

It looks like age and the frequency of P.O. courses is a real problem. In a small modern army maybe the Israeli, or Garda way is best. All start at the bottom rank.

Thats how it is in the RDF, it does mean that most of are officers are nearly thirty when commissioned, which leads to problems in itself.

time lord

pmg58 wrote: »

Thats how it is in the RDF, it does mean that most of are officers are nearly thirty when commissioned, which leads to problems in itself.

In My opinion I dont think the Israelis share a common problem with the RDF when it comes to their officers ages at any level.

I will conceed on the Garda model though. I have never seen a young Garda Officer but their role is differant and after they attain a certain rank they do not have to spend a minimum time in that rank and rapid promotion can and has happened through several ranks in a very small space of time.

pmg58

Sorry I should have said it wasn't a problem for the Israelis but it could be a problem for the PDF.

Jo King

The problem with the Irish Army is that not enough is done to encourage or force vacancies in the senior NCO and Officer ranks. Early retirement is costly and so is not encouraged. What should ideally happen is that Civil Service and other Public Service posts are made available top Defence forces personnel on an annual basis and older personnel encourage to move out of the Defence forces.
Having Battalion Commanders and C/S s and Sergeant Majors in their 50's is ridiculous.
In favour of the old seniority system it has to be said are
1. It minimised political interference.
2. It minimised nepotism and cronyism
3. It minimised the "clone effect" where each person promoted is the image of the one who has departed.
4. It led to less jockeying for appointments.

There are regular stories from the guards that the sons of Superintendants tend to make sergeant at a much earlier stage than average!

testicle

pmg58 wrote: »

Thats how it is in the RDF, it does mean that most of are officers are nearly thirty when commissioned, which leads to problems in itself.

Not any more. I was 26. The youngest was 21, the eldest was 32. Most were my age or younger.

pmg58

An RDF officer commissioned at 21?!

concussion

It's possible - they could have started training at 16, been attested at 17 and immediately done their Recruit Course. Over the next year they complete 2-3* and attend their second camp as 3* for continuation training at the age of 18. PNCO the next summer to make Cpl at 19 and the P.O. course over the next two years.

pmg58

I know its technically possible, but it does require a fair bit of bending of rules, and I have to wonder how someone who has only been in for 2 years can impress his (or her) company commander enough to get on the PO course.

Donny5

pmg58 wrote: »

I know its technically possible, but it does require a fair bit of bending of rules, and I have to wonder how someone who has only been in for 2 years can impress his (or her) company commander enough to get on the PO course.

By being their son? It's technically not possible, as technically, to get on the PNCO Cse requires 2 years satisfactory service, which would mean 3 years minimum to Cpl. Technically, anyway. Lots of dodgy stuff goes on in the reserve.

concussion

You're right there on the 2 year rule but there are always exception. One of our lads did an early recruit camp and came on our own full time training in his first year and the next summer he was not only 3* but had comleted his gunnery course as well. He did a PNCO cse the next year and Std NCOs two years later (this year) and would be officially Sgt now if it wasn't for the embargo. To say he is excellent at his job would be an understatement.

Jo King

From today's Sunday Tribune:-

"Corruption is 'rife' among gardaí, claims young officer
Ali Bracken
Fachtna Murphy: commissionerA Dublin-based garda has complained about "internal corruption" within the force and the Garda Representative Association (GRA) has backed up the officer's assertion that gardaí can be promoted through nepotism rather than ability.
Similar to political dynasties, there is a history within An Garda Síochána of members of the same families joining the force. Because of this, it has been claimed young officers with family connections can gain promotions and transfers unfairly.
A young garda said there is "low morale" within the force because of officers using family connections to gain promotions and transfers.
"Those with connections have gained detective spots before those with more experience and expertise. Those with connections have gained indoor or office jobs. Those with connections have ridden roughshod over disciplinary regulations due to their 'pull'," he said.
Michael O'Boyce, president of the GRA, said young officers using their family connections to get ahead was an "ongoing issue".
"It's something we have to always be aware of and keep an eye on it. It is covered under the Garda code of ethics. I'm aware of one case where a young garda got promoted to a position because of another garda.
"The young garda wasn't making an issue of who his relation was. This other officer saw to it that he got promoted to try and ingratiate himself with this young garda's relation, who was senior to him.
The young garda in question was just used in this case," he said.
"There's always been suspicion over the years about people getting promoted because of their family connections. What we're more concerned about is that there's always been a strong suggestion that people can get transferred because of friendships more so than family connections.
"I would have a view that would be more prevalent than nepotism," O'Boyce added.
The rules state that when gardaí are sworn into the force, they cannot transfer from the first station where they are assigned for two years save for exceptional circumstances. In practice, this rule has been flaunted by young officers with "connections", said the garda source.
"When training at the garda college, we're told that all transfers depend on work return – the amount of summons, tickets, arrests, pieces of criminal intelligence and charge sheets accrued over time and your sick record.
"In practice, this is a nonsense to the extent that when a garda hears of a colleague submitting a transfer request, their first question is not as regards the desired division but 'do you have any pull?'"
O'Boyce said he was not aware of the practice of gardaí being authorised for transfers before their two-year probationary period was complete without just cause.
The garda source added: "What vexes me more than anything else is the extent to which such corrupt practices lead to a denigration of morale. How can gardaí be expected to remain self-motivated and productive if the level of internal corruption is of such pandemic proportions?"
O'Boyce said he has raised the issue of people being promoted ahead of more capable gardaí with the commissioner Fachtna Murphy."



Could the Defence Forces go down the same road?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jo King wrote: »

Could the Defence Forces go down the same road?

WTF?.

.