That's not a knife, this is a knife

corblimey

So, while I was in Japan eating hearty miso and wasabi, I put a rather large amount of money down on an authentic Japanese chef's knife. The guy in the shop spoke pretty poor English (better than my Japanese, though) so I want to be sure I start off taking care of it correctly.

I got a sharpening block, but the directions were a little vague. I've looked online, but the instructions are all different to each other and to the instructions as I understood them in the shop. Can anyone point me to a tutorial that works for them, or some step by step instructions?

Also, how often do I need to sharpen? He said for normal every day use, once every 3 weeks would suffice?

CJhaughey

Does it have a single bevelled edge or is it a conventional edge?

corblimey

Oh blimey, I didn't know there was going to be a quiz How can I tell what sort of edge it has?

CJhaughey

It is just that some japanese knives have a blade that is flat on one side and the other is bevelled, Like a chisel.

corblimey

I'll take a look this evening and revert

corblimey

CJhaughey wrote: »

Does it have a single bevelled edge or is it a conventional edge?

Both sides are flat, no bevel, so I guess 'conventional edge'?

Overflow

From my understanding....

This is a bevel edge:



Straight:

corblimey

Apologies for the bump, but I'm really interested in how to care for my Japanese knife

superficies

As far as I know a true Japanese knife made traditionally should not be sharpened. I am sure I read this somewhere--in a New Yorker article about knife making and maintenance a few months ago I think. Maybe search the New Yorker website and it might come up and lead you to some more information?

corblimey

superficies wrote: »

As far as I know a true Japanese knife made traditionally should not be sharpened.

Hmm, well he sold me a sharpening stone and gave me concise but bewildering instructions on how to sharpen it, so I assume it's not in this camp?

enda1

Don't put it into the dishwasher and always keep separate from other implements - i.e. don't let anything rest against the metal.

Regarding sharpening, I find best the cylindrical handled old fashioned ones for carving. Technique is a bit difficult to explain though, just gotta wing it really...

Maglight

I have a Global knife and use a ceramic sharpener to sharpen it. Tried a steel sharpener but it didn't work well. Sharpen it about once a week.

CJhaughey

Sorry for not replying but the lack of search means that I can't follow up on threads that I have replied it.
I take it that your knife is a standard edge not the single bevel.
What kind of stone did he supply you with? a Brick red colour waterstone?
You need to hold the knife at a fine angle to the stone preferably with water running over it slowly and slide the blade diagonally forward.
The number of strokes and pressure has to be even for both sides.
I have found the Japanese angle tools that slide on to the back of the blade good for getting the angle correct.
Try to imagine that you are slicing a very thin layer off the stone and you will have the right technique.
Sharpening knives is not a skill that you will learn overnight but practice makes better , I suggest that you get a cheap knife to practice on before you subject your Japanese chefs knife to early sharpening attempts.

Edit: The posters above are referring to steels these do not create an edge they just maintain it.

bonkey

Single bevel:

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Standard (double) bevel:

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This link has appeared multiple times on this board, and its the absolute-best read about knives and knife-sharpening that I've come across. Its a nice mix between theory and practice and well worth 30 minutes of your time.

One tip...learn how to sharpen with a cheap knife, because sure as ****, you're gonna scratch the thing a lot until you know what you're doing....and you'll kick yourself if you do that to a good knife (too often).

corblimey

That's a great link, bonkey, but I'm more interested in the technique which that doesn't seem to go into. The guy in the shop put 2 fingers on the blade near the tip and pushed the knife along the stone at an angle, then pulled it back and did it again. He told me to do this 13 times! He then moved his 2 fingers along the blade toward the handle and repeated these steps.

All videos and stuff I've seen, the knife is pushed along the stone but in a sweeping motion so that the entire knife edge is sharpened in 1 go, for example

spectre

I sharpen my Chef's knife every time I take it from the drawer. Five or Six swipes on either side is all that's needed to maintain a good edge. It has become somewhat of a ritual for me. I love to do it!

The above technique is all that's required for the vast majority of knives. Youtube has some pretty good demonstrations.

Some of the really expensive modern Japanese knives don't require the same frequent sharpening of the blade. I believe they need to be shapened by a specialist too as the metal is so hard.

corblimey

spectre wrote: »

The above technique is all that's required for the vast majority of knives. Youtube has some pretty good demonstrations

Do mean the 'above technique' as in the one I linked to on YT, spectre? From tip to handle in smooth motion? How many times do you do that on each side?

CJhaughey

corblimey wrote: »

That's a great link, bonkey, but I'm more interested in the technique which that doesn't seem to go into. The guy in the shop put 2 fingers on the blade near the tip and pushed the knife along the stone at an angle, then pulled it back and did it again. He told me to do this 13 times! He then moved his 2 fingers along the blade toward the handle and repeated these steps.

All videos and stuff I've seen, the knife is pushed along the stone but in a sweeping motion so that the entire knife edge is sharpened in 1 go, for example

Thats because he is sharpening the edge at a 90º angle not the 45º angle that you get if you use the sweep method, the two fingers are to ensure that the pressure is the same.

Practice on a €5 euro pound shop jobbie, thats the only way you will get proficient using the water stone.

corblimey

CJhaughey wrote: »

Thats because he is sharpening the edge at a 90º angle not the 45º angle that you get if you use the sweep method, the two fingers are to ensure that the pressure is the same.

Not to call you a liar, but he actually had the knife at a very shallow angle, he put 2 1-yen coins behind the blade, so it looked to be about 20 degrees?

CJhaughey wrote: »

Practice on a €5 euro pound shop jobbie, thats the only way you will get proficient using the water stone.

Yeah, I've got an Argos knife that I'll try it on this weekend, just trying to get some tips before I start

spectre

corblimey wrote: »

Do mean the 'above technique' as in the one I linked to on YT, spectre? From tip to handle in smooth motion? How many times do you do that on each side?

This is what you need to do, to keep a keen blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqZLbBx5kTE&NR=1

CJhaughey

corblimey wrote: »

Not to call you a liar, but he actually had the knife at a very shallow angle, he put 2 1-yen coins behind the blade, so it looked to be about 20 degrees?


Yeah, I've got an Argos knife that I'll try it on this weekend, just trying to get some tips before I start

I didn't mean the angle from the surface of the stone rather the movement of the blade across the surface. No-one sharpens a blade with a 45 deg edge!
He was moving the section of the blade along the stone at a 90deg angle, then moving along further and repeating.
Most people sweep the blade from heel to point along the stone.

corblimey

Oops, sorry, misunderstood. Yes, he didn't "sweep" the blade at all when doing it this way, simply put the 2 fingers on it and pushed it away from him in a straight line (that's what you meant right?)

I'm going to try the sweeping motion method with a cheapass Argos knife this weekend, see how far I get. I think the idea with the Japanese knife is to only sharpen it when it needs sharpening, I use my knives mostly twice a week (at the weekends when I'm doing cooking) so I guess I'll know when it starts to get dull and that's when I break out my sharpening stone. I don't think I'm going to bother with the sharpening tool thing, though.

denat

corblimey wrote: »

I put a rather large amount of money down on an authentic Japanese chef's knife. The guy in the shop spoke pretty poor English (better than my Japanese, though)

I suspect he saw you coming and had a fair idea you didn't know anything about knives / had more money than sense.

There's a clue in the fact that he spoke better english than your japanese.

Best idea is dump the yoke he sold you, practice on the argos stuff and sharpen up on your japanese language for the next time!

corblimey

denat wrote: »

I suspect he saw you coming and had a fair idea you didn't know anything about knives / had more money than sense.

There's a clue in the fact that he spoke better english than your japanese.

Best idea is dump the yoke he sold you, practice on the argos stuff and sharpen up on your japanese language for the next time!

Wow, I hope I'm not as cynical as you when I grow up

Overflow

denat wrote: »

I suspect he saw you coming and had a fair idea you didn't know anything about knives / had more money than sense.

There's a clue in the fact that he spoke better english than your japanese.

Best idea is dump the yoke he sold you, practice on the argos stuff and sharpen up on your japanese language for the next time!

That was the worst advice ever!

the beer revolu

does anyone know if there's anywhere in Ireland where I can get my knives professionally sharpened?
(and not the local cobbler who'll grind the bejaysus out of them!)

brianthebard

Ask your butcher?

Musashi

I'm not a professional sharpener, I do it cause I love knives and steels!

If you can drop your knife in to me, personally or by post? I will put a proper edge on it an send it home to you!

I use various methods to sharpen various steels and styles of knives. I like ceramics, diamonds, steels, water stones, oil stones and strops, leather and other!

Let me drop you a line when I am ready and I will have an Edge Pro PRO model at my fingertips and diamond stones to use on it.

I can and will put a hair popping sharp edge on anything I receive!

Currently I use Japanese water stones and effort, soon DMT and Eze-Lap will be my mates!

All that aside, if you have a good knife, or one you like, send it to me and I will polish it to as sharp as it can get!

No if's and's or but's, top performance or I will know why not? No obligation other than to have a good edge on for once.

Most have heard about Japanese style polishing but have never seen it?

I can and will do a similar job for no money first time out, pay me if ye want to go again with this standard of polish on your knives?

Musashi

Ok, looking at it again my post didn't address the OPs questions.

So here goes!

Japanese steels are generally hardened to a higher level than French/German kitchen knives. This means they will hold an edge rather than roll it, so less need for a steel to realign the edges.

They are also usually carbon steel laminated with softer cladding (Hitachi White paper or blue Paper steel).

Sometimes like my Hattori some of the Japanese "Super" steels are used that are not allowed to be used outside Japan unless under licence (Cowry X, VG10, S30V, S90V, BG42)

What this means is you can go for a thinner angle and the steel will take an hold that edge, the downside is too thin and the brittle core can chip on you instead of folding like a Sabatier/Henckels/Wusthoff et al.

Traditional Japanese knives are usually specific to various cutting tasks. A Deba is for cutting up heavy fish like a big tuna so is thicker and generally chisel ground (beveled only on one side, also makes some knives left or right handed).

A Nakiri is a light cleaver like knife and used for vegetables mainly. Any heavier work it can chip like a mother (or like my Shinichi Watanabe mukimono!).

There are some Japanese blades that are more multi-purpose and similar to Western knives, I would Imagine you were sold one of these three?

A Santoku, "three virtues" close to a medium chef knife in use, has a pointy enough point, enough belly for rocking chopping cuts and enough length for slicing and mincing.

A Petty which is basically a paring knife, can be long or short but is a great prep knife and peeler but the lack of length can mean slicing is more awkward.

A Gyuto or "Cow Sword" is like a big chef knife more than a dedicated carver (Sahimi) and does what it says on the tin. It's a long knife with a decent belly for long gliding slices and also good for winter squash and Pumpkin carving!

OK, now you know what knife you have and its intended target audience, you need to decide on what angle you want to sharpen at. This depends on what grind you have.

There are about six knife grinds, and real quick here's the highlights.




Hollow ground, done on large round grinding wheels gives a thin edge with less metal behind the edge. Good for slicing but bad for chopping.

Full flat, tapers from the very spine to the edge in one Vee shape, may have a tiny micro bevel right at the edge.

Sabre ground, the knife sides remain even until halfwayish down the blade, then taper to meet at an edge. Tapered lower down the blade it's Scandi ground, mainly used in scandinavia, the knife is flat until maybe five mil. from the edge then a bevel is made to bring to the edge, may also include a micro bevel.

Chisel ground, common on Japanese cutlery to leave a shiny surface on the face of the cut.

Double bevel, often used on a fine thin blade to leave a bit more beef at the cutting edge, handy if your knife is chipping out but you want to keep the fine slicing geometry behind the edge.

Convex grind, what I usually use on softer western kitchen knives. Has an apple seed profile so has a nice sharp edge but with a bit more support behind the edge so less flopping of your edge and less aligning needed in use, also good for outdoorsy knives, machetes and axes!


OK, but how would I sharpen the damn thing!

I'm going to have to make some assumptions here about what you've got.

We'll talk about a double bevel Santoku style, sabre or full flat ground, thin and slicey. I'll also take it you've got a water stone (Japanese like them) and that it's a moderate grit like a 1000? Any writing on the stone, makers name (King, Ice Bear?) or a grit rating (Japanese grits are not = western ratings).

Soak your stone in water, ten minutes submerged is fine. Put it somewhere flat it won't slip, on a teatowel on the draining board is good. Keep the stone wet as you work, Jap. stones are made to break down and it's the gritty "Slurry" that does the work.

DO Not press down, let the abrasive do the work. The weight of the knife will do.

Place the stone running lengthways away from you.

Some people like to sharpen side to side but if your not already in that habit don't start. Something about how the shoulder articulates messes up your angle control so just do slices away from you.

Set your angle, Japanese are generally fine edged so try putting two euro coins on the back of your stone. Put the spine of the knife on the coins, heel of the edge on the stone. Slice away from you as if trying to skim atoms off the stones surface. You can work section by section heel to tip or do slices using the whole length of the blade. I like to use all the blade if my stone is long enough, section by section counting strokes if I can't manage that.

Some guys stay going on one side until they have raised a burr then flip the knife and do the other side. I prefer to do ten strokes one side then ten the other, couple of reasons. I like to keep the wear even on my edges, and I don't want to raise a big ass burr that I will have to deal with down the road on finer grit stones. Some times that wire edge will flop side to side on you and needs to be ripped off on a hard felt pad or brass rod!

So, do your ten strokes and either swap hands to do the other side of the knife or (like me) do ten strokes coming back the other way. Keep your angles consistent and don't gut yourself. Keep going until your getting a decent edge.

Test for edge by feel (carefully) or by cutting some printer paper. Cut some now while your knife is sharp, remember that feel. Cut with it blunt and as you sharpen. Paper from the one ream should be consistent enough to give a decent idea how your edge is coming along.

To finish I like to decrease my strokes per side, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8 ,8 like that until I'm down to alternating strokes. Then I'll either go to a finer grit stone or as you've just the one stone switch to leading with the spine and trailing the edge.

Like trying to spread butter down the stone, light as you can while still making contact. Go heel to tip or tip to heel, whichever feels right to you.
I saw Murray Carter doing that on his DVD, and if it's good enough for him!

That should be good enough and a big improvement on what edge you had. If you want to polish and refine your edge more get some autosol from a local motor factors and spread a little bit on some smooth cardboard (back of a notepad) or a strip of leather ( Back of a belt). Using the same angle and a light touch again trail the edge up and down the strop to polish and refine your edge.

Probably not worth doing on most Western style knives as they are too soft for the effort put in to be a gain. Harder steels can benefit though, and when blunted a bit are still only down to the level of a sharpened western style knife.

Any other questions or comments feel free to ask me. If I've got anything wrong about the kit you have, or if you could post a pic. that'd help. If your stone is any coarser than 1000 grit I'd not use it for sharpening,more for bevel repair, any finer and it will take all day!

Finally some links to good vids. should make what I've posted above easier to visualise.


http://japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html is a very good explanation of what I tried to explain above.

Murray is the Daddy!

This guy is a chef and uses 3M sharpening film on a granite base (Scary Sharp method, uses fine sandpaper as waterstones) for great results, watch the end credits!

This is the guy who owns japaneseknifesharpening giving a detailed masterclass on sharpening on waterstones!


Enjoy!

the beer revolu

Well, I finally got a stone to sharpen my knives.
Now, the purists may cringe here, but I got an India stone in the hardware shop - fine side 320.
Started off with my cheapest knives and worked up.
As was recommended in a link above, I, first, used no lubricant but found it a bit 'scratchy' so I used the oil that came with the stone (the oil seems to give the effect of a finer grit too).

Now while I haven't blown myself away with the sharpness of my knives, they certainly are sharper then they were before and aren't all scratched. Can only go up from here.

One question; should I wash/clean the stone after use to stop it getting 'clogged' ?

CJhaughey

the beer revolu wrote: »

Well, I finally got a stone to sharpen my knives.
Now, the purists may cringe here, but I got an India stone in the hardware shop - fine side 320.
Started off with my cheapest knives and worked up.
As was recommended in a link above, I, first, used no lubricant but found it a bit 'scratchy' so I used the oil that came with the stone (the oil seems to give the effect of a finer grit too).

Now while I haven't blown myself away with the sharpness of my knives, they certainly are sharper then they were before and aren't all scratched. Can only go up from here.

One question; should I wash/clean the stone after use to stop it getting 'clogged' ?

You can rinse it in kerosene to get rid of the old oil but I don't really bother. I find a lighter oil helps keep the swarf off the stone.
Do you have a steel?

the beer revolu

CJhaughey wrote: »

Do you have a steel?

Yes - I use that daily

Mike Litoris

Tips from an ex butcher.

Invest in a good steel. Cheap rough/course steels are useless on a good blade. A good steel will also mean less time using the stone.

About using the sharpening stone. Circular motions up and down the length of the knife:p holding the knife with your right hand using your three middle fingers of the left hand to apply slight pressure on the back of the blade. A 10 to 15 degree angle..maybe more depending on the design of the knife. You'll scrape the side of the knife if its too flat.

Stay away from the rough side of the stone unless the knife is completely knackered.

Use oil to clean the stone. WD40 is good.

Dont leave your knife in boiling water for too long when washing it.

Always use a wooden chopping board. Plastic will take the edge off a knife twice as quick and forget about glass.

Only use your knife for food. Cutting plastic or even cardboard can easily take the fine edge off it.

Musashi

One question; should I wash/clean the stone after use to stop it getting 'clogged' ?

If you are making a lot of swarf then you can wash it withkerosene, diesel light mineral oil etc. Only for oilstones...Never use oil on a waterstone!

If and when the stone starts to dish (develop a hollow bit) then some sand on a kerb or lintel can be used to flatten and dress your stone, exposing new grit and keeping the flatness.

This happens faster with waterstones as they are designed to wear in use exposing fresh grit all the time. Draw a grid of pencil lines on your stone and see where the low spots are. A little when first noticed saves a lot of work if it's left go too long.

Now, the purists may cringe here, but I got an India stone in the hardware shop - fine side 320.
Started off with my cheapest knives and worked up.

That is fine, I often use sandpaper designed for car body refinishing as disposable "stones". Halfords or where ever usually have packs in various grits up to about 1200. Get a pack, a can of spray adhesive and a flat tile or granite/marble block. Stick down the sandpaper and wet it, then use as a stone to refine and polish your edges.

Maybe use a stropping or edge trailing move if your worried about cutting in to the paper. Cheap and gives excellent results!

The Sweeper

Another tip - knife storage.

If you have a block with horizontal slits, ensure you sheath the knives with the pressure towards the back of the knife. If you have a block with vertical slits, store your knives with the blade towards the sky, so the blade doesn't rub the edge of the storage slit every time you take it out of the block.

Don't store your knives in the drawer with other utensils if you can help it. For starters, it makes fishing for a soup ladle into an extreme sport. Seconds, it just rough-houses the knives when you're rumaging around for other stuff.

Fabric knife rolls - my personal opinion is not to bother unless you intend on going places with your knives, but these may well be the finest way of storing your knives to preserve their edge.

Favourite for me are heavy duty wall-mounted magnetic knife strips. The magnet on the good strips is extremely strong so you really don't need to worry about the knives falling off the strip. Having a knife strip also encourages me to take better care of my knives, because the blades are on display on the wall! Not sure how knife purists may feel about what the magnetised storage strip may do to the steel in the knife?