Single Speed Bikes Why?

07Lapierre

Whats the facination/appeal with single speed bikes? Sorry but I just don't get it. Even when i was a kid i couldn't wait to get rid of my single speed and get a "proper bike!" (thanks Santa! )

I do realise that if your cycling around the city all the time, having a triple chainset is "overkill", but surely a 10 speed would be nice? No?

Lumen

Less cleaning and maintenance, nicer looking driveline, chicks dig it.

Diarmuid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgAi7DYHA94#t=0m57

Jumpy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ywHnU9k-k

potsy11

Performance - Thats the name of the game.......

Chips Lovell

Gears are nice. But the theory is that single speed is cheaper, with less maintenance involved.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

Less cleaning and maintenance, nicer looking driveline, chicks dig it.

Ah come on! less cleaning?? I mean really, how much time would you save cleaning a single speed compared to a road bike? besides, I'm one of those sad b***ards who actually enjoys cleaning my bike.

As for "chicks dig it" ... I'm Married, 40+ and going bald!..It would have to be a damn good bike!

Lumen

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ah come on! less cleaning?? I mean really, how much time would you save cleaning a single speed compared to a road bike? besides, I'm one of those sad b***ards who actually enjoys cleaning my bike.

No, really. Forget about cleaning the frame, wheels etc, because that's just cosmetic and completely unnecessary.

Necessary cleaning is cleaning all the crud out of the drivetrain. Which you don't need to do with a singlespeed.

I am not really a fan of singlespeeds, but accept that the lack of cleaning and maintainance is a huge advantage.

Rob_l

I would like to try a fixed wheel bike to see what all the fuss is about having only gotten into cycling Im in love with my road bike, but all the hype about fixed wheel, single speed bikes does have me interested.

Chips Lovell

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ah come on! less cleaning?? I mean really, how much time would you save cleaning a single speed compared to a road bike?

Well, most of my time cleaning a bike comes on the drivetrain, so significantly less. A single speed will also run better with a filthy drivetrain.

Chips Lovell

Having said all that, I do think that their convenience is over-hyped at times. Less fuss certainly, but sometimes their advocates make too much of a song and dance about how difficult gears are. Yes they take longer to clean, but adjusting them etc is a piece of cake. Secondly, I don't think they're as cheap as they could be and the generally trendiness of them at the moment means that you're probably paying more than you should.

stevie_b

07Lapierre wrote: »

As for "chicks dig it" ... I'm Married, 40+ and going bald!..It would have to be a damn good bike!

with your alzheimers a single speed could be a good idea for you if you keep forgetting to change gears.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

No, really. Forget about cleaning the frame, wheels etc, because that's just cosmetic and completely unnecessary.

Necessary cleaning is cleaning all the crud out of the drivetrain. Which you don't need to do with a singlespeed.

I am not really a fan of singlespeeds, but accept that the lack of cleaning and maintainance is a huge advantage.

Nope have to disagree with you on that one. If you clean your bike regularly, the drivetrain can be cleaned very simply.
1. spray on degreaser
2. wash with sopay water
3. wipe down with cloth
4. relube

All 4 steps 5 minutes max.

As for less maintence, one set of brake blocks instead of two thats it no? I mean gear cables last a long time (Even if they don't, there simple to replace)

07Lapierre

stevie_b wrote: »

with your alzheimers a single speed could be a good idea for you if you keep forgetting to change gears.

Thats assuming I can remember where i parked my bike!

07Lapierre

el tonto wrote: »

Having said all that, I do think that their convenience is over-hyped at times. Less fuss certainly, but sometimes their advocates make too much of a song and dance about how difficult gears are. Yes they take longer to clean, but adjusting them etc is a piece of cake. Secondly, I don't think they're as cheap as they could be and the generally trendiness of them at the moment means that you're probably paying more than you should.

+1 €800 for a single speed? I don't think so!

Redjeep!

I kind off agree that I don't really see the attraction. I cycle regularly with a guy who loves single speeds (and normally in steel) and apparently it's a 'purity thing'.

He also says that it's great training and it must work as he can still beat me up hills when he's on his steel single and I'm on my carbon.

Or maybe I'm just cr@p.

Doctor Bob

Lumen wrote: »

Less cleaning and maintenance, nicer looking driveline, chicks dig it.

Two of these three advantages also exist with hub gears.

As for the third, I'm sure she's out there.

Chips Lovell

07Lapierre wrote: »

Nope have to disagree with you on that one. If you clean your bike regularly, the drivetrain can be cleaned very simply.
1. spray on degreaser
2. wash with sopay water
3. wipe down with cloth
4. relube

All 4 steps 5 minutes max.

As for less maintence, one set of brake blocks instead of two thats it no? I mean gear cables last a long time (Even if they don't, there simple to replace)

It takes a bit more than five minutes in fairness if you do it right. Also consider perhaps needing two chains, one cassette and one set of cables every year and it adds up a bit.

Chips Lovell

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Two of these three advantages also exist with hub gears.

As for the third, I'm sure she's out there.

Bob, your bike weighs a tonne though.

Capt'n Midnight

the chain doesn't need to bend sideways, so you save a little bit of power there

in theory you can get up to 99% efficient transfer of power - gear boxes in cars and trucks are so inefficient that when you get to the size of locomotives or huge dumper trucks they connect the diesel motor to a generator and then use electricity to drive motors at the wheels instead of using gearboxes ! Crazy really when motorbikes with roller bearing chains are near the power of small cars.

also because the chain has less slack it's a teeny bit more responsive, if you live in a flat area with lots of traffic lights then you aren't going to need very high or low gears anyway


and in theory it's less likely to get nicked

Gavin

Singlespeeds, why not ?

07Lapierre

el tonto wrote: »

It takes a bit more than five minutes in fairness if you do it right. Also consider perhaps needing two chains, one cassette and one set of cables every year and it adds up a bit.

Ok 5 mins is a slight exaggeration..but if you clean your bike regularly it doesn't take that long. AS for chains/cassettes..again only take s few minutes to change these. Obviously there is an added expense, but it still doesn't convince me.

I think most people who ride single speeds around town do so as a "fashion statement" or they are trying to discourage the little g**s**ts from robbing them.

beans

also because the chain has less slack it's a teeny bit more responsive

This sounds like pedantry, but this very point was commented on by my friend who was trying my SS bike for the first time last night. He also commented on it's weight, and overall he enjoyed the experience

Bikes without gears have their advantages and disadvantages, I'd say it's down to the intended application. For commuting in a city like Dublin, I'd say gears are far from essential.

niceonetom

I don't really see the point of single speed either (minor maintenance advantages aside). If you're going to coast you might as well have gears.

Fixed, on the other hand, I'm a big fan of. Because it's fun and it feels good. I also think it makes me a stronger cyclist (or at least it would if I did some training on it).

@07Lapierre - I don't think you're cleaning your drive-train properly. "3. wipe down with cloth" should probably read as "3. scrub persistently and vigorously with several types of brush". :P

Chips Lovell

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ok 5 mins is a slight exaggeration..but if you clean your bike regularly it doesn't take that long. AS for chains/cassettes..again only take s few minutes to change these. Obviously there is an added expense, but it still doesn't convince me.

Put it this way, I'd have a good bike for road riding and use a single speed for commuting. Rather than have to wash two road bikes (a good bike and a hack), I just have to wash one. The single speed just needs a one minute wipe with a wet cloth.

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think most people who ride single speeds around town do so as a "fashion statement" or they are trying to discourage the little g**s**ts from robbing them.

There's no denying the fashion element alright. But I doubt that single speeds deter thieves any more, given the amount of young kids I've seen riding fixies that are way too big for them recently.

07Lapierre

niceonetom wrote: »

I don't really see the point of single speed either (minor maintenance advantages aside). If you're going to coast you might as well have gears.

Fixed, on the other hand, I'm a big fan of. Because it's fun and it feels good. I also think it makes me a stronger cyclist (or at least it would if I did some training on it).

@07Lapierre - I don't think you're cleaning your drive-train properly. "3. wipe down with cloth" should probably read as "3. scrub persistently and vigorously with several types of brush". :P

You only have to scrub vigorously if your not cleaning you bike frequently. I clean mine after every ride..so its never really that dirty (sad i know :rolleyes:)

Doctor Bob

el tonto wrote: »

Bob, your bike weighs a tonne though.

Are you saying that's why the ladies stay away?

With 88 kilos of me and a pannier or two, not to mention two locks, a back carrier and mudguards, the marginal extra weight of a hub gear really doesn't amount to much. The bike itself is certainly at the lighter end of the commuter spectrum.

Lumen

07Lapierre wrote: »

Nope have to disagree with you on that one. If you clean your bike regularly, the drivetrain can be cleaned very simply.
1. spray on degreaser
2. wash with sopay water
3. wipe down with cloth
4. relube

All 4 steps 5 minutes max.

You're missing the point. With singlespeed you never have to clean your bike.

This is undeniably an advantage. Whether it matters to you is a different issue.

petethedrummer

On a fixie you can track stand on a downward slope.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

You're missing the point. With singlespeed you never have to clean your bike.

This is undeniably an advantage. Whether it matters to you is a different issue.

Yes that would bother me! So my assumption that they are a "fashion statement" is also wrong then? A fithy dirty single speed bike would not be a very desirable "steal" i imagine.

blorg

@07Lapierre- in fairness you aren't really qualified to pronounce on the benefits if you have never used a singlespeed.

A singlespeed (or fixed) bike has a drivetrain that is easier to clean. More significantly though it also continues to run far better than a geared bike even with a filthy drivetrain. If it gets filthy on a bad day, you can leave it for another week or three, you don't have to clean it. This makes a lot of sense for a commuter.

You might flip it around and ask "why gears?" - as they are _completely_ unnecessary for commuting in Dublin.

There are also decided training benefits with longer non-commuting cycles, particularly with a fixed gear, that transfer to the geared bike. This is largely about building up a wide cadence range. Fixed is also "fun" - you would have to ride one to grasp this.

I have two fixed bikes and six geared ones, both fixed and gears have advantages in different circumstances. You get almost all the simplicity/cleaning benefits with SS vs fixed but lose some of the fun.

Lumen

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yes that would bother me! So my assumption that they are a "fashion statement" is also wrong then? A fithy dirty single speed bike would not be a very desirable "steal" i imagine.

Different things to different people. I didn't consider my Tricross Single a "looker", it was just a nice comfy tank for commuting and taking the kids out on.

I might get another fixie (maybe a bling one) when my legs and back are a bit stronger. As it is I have to run a weedy gear which limits top speed.

copacetic

blorg wrote: »

You might flip it around and ask "why gears?" - as they are _completely_ unnecessary for commuting in Dublin.

Wouldn't agree with this at all, I think I have roughly the opposite commute to you (based on seeing you going the other way on the link road) with the extra hilly bits further out added on. Gnearally it's downhill with the wind every morning and uphill against the wind every evening. I'm probably 5-10 gears different on average.

Dublin is quite a hilly city if you live 5-6 miles from the city centre.

Lumen

Remember kids: Blorg is not normal.

Ghost Rider

I commute on a singlespeed. Apart from the sentimental value of the bike (it's based on an old steel frame that has been in the family since the late 1970s/early 1980s), I really love cycling it. Blorg pretty much listed all the advantages, and put it very well when he reversed the usual question and rephrased it as "Why do you need gears?"

I would add that in Dublin city particularly, gears are largely unnecessary, especially when you've developed a certain amount of strength in your legs. Sure, if your main goal is an easy life, then gears are a help, especially if you live on a hill. But I like to think most people on this forum don't just think of their bikes in such purely utilitarian terms. I certainly don't, even though this bike is mainly for commuting.

One other advantage to a singlespeed that Blorg didn't mention is this: acceleration. If you run a high enough gear - and it doesn't have to be really high; 42/16 is plenty - then you can really take off when the traffic lights turn green.

07Lapierre

blorg wrote: »

@07Lapierre- in fairness you aren't really qualified to pronounce on the benefits if you have never used a singlespeed.

A singlespeed (or fixed) bike has a drivetrain that is easier to clean. More significantly though it also continues to run far better than a geared bike even with a filthy drivetrain. If it gets filthy on a bad day, you can leave it for another week or three, you don't have to clean it. This makes a lot of sense for a commuter.

You might flip it around and ask "why gears?" - as they are _completely_ unnecessary for commuting in Dublin.

There are also decided training benefits with longer non-commuting cycles, particularly with a fixed gear, that transfer to the geared bike. This is largely about building up a wide cadence range. Fixed is also "fun" - you would have to ride one to grasp this.

I have two fixed bikes and six geared ones, both fixed and gears have advantages in different circumstances. You get almost all the simplicity/cleaning benefits with SS vs fixed but lose some of the fun.

I think you missing my point Blog. Of couse I'm not qualified..thats why i set up this thread in the first place. I don't cycle a single speed which is why I wanted to here from you guys. I've always cycled road bikes and I love them. I'm sure there are plenty of other cyclists out there who have never had a SS bike, so I think they too will benefit from hearing from you guys who do have them.

At the end of the day I think its a personal choice. I like road bikes. I like the technology. SS Bikes are easy to maintain, agreed, but I like maintaining my own bike. I like cleaning it and I don't see it as a "chore", so a SS bike doesn't appeal to me.

Now if you don't mind I'm going to show this thread to my wife as proof that i NEED another 4 bikes in the garage!

TheJones

After reading through this thread I'm astonished as to how no-one has listed the obvious benefits of single speed,

1 SS both fixed and freewheel are currently very fasionable and the star of weekend center spreads the world over
2 Owning one allows you a back door entrance into the cool mac book, elevator jazz, coffee culture of metropolitan cities
3 You can buy your needed accessories in chic Temple Bar instead of an industrial estate in Tallaght
4 It gives grown men an excuse to wear a hand made leather satchel and ipod when cycling
5 It will result in a loyalty card from amongst others, Urban Outfitters as you desperatley try to allign your wardrobe with your more fashionable bike

Lumen

Ghost Rider wrote: »

One other advantage to a singlespeed that Blorg didn't mention is this: acceleration. If you run a high enough gear - and it doesn't have to be really high; 42/16 is plenty - then you can really take off when the traffic lights turn green.

That's complete nonsense, in fairness.

42/16 is 69.2 inches.

A compact with 11-23 (for instance) has 69.0 inches in 34/13, and 69.4 in 50/19.

Is there something particularly magical about the .2?

Wez

Most of the differences have been mentioned already, but it's all down to personal taste. I really like not having to click up and down through gears that will eventually need a hefty service (a close friends bike has been off the road for months because of a re-occuring gearing problem, and that was his sole bike, commuter etc).

There's also the fact that I haven't cleaned my bike since it went together. There's a load of gunk built up on my chain, but causes me no concern (although that's my next mission). Also, having no derailler means any bit of pressure I put on the pedals goes right to the wheel, without the wasted energy of a crooked chainline or anything else to worry about.

The overall reason I do it is the cheaper running costs, being able to have a really great ride without spending much (because I converted, didn't buy a new build) although I've gone overboard now (got Campag wheels, new frame possibley). They can also take a good beating, which I wouldn't want to do with my roadie (which has been sitting in the corner of the shed for a couple years now, since I started riding fixed first).

Gotta be tried really.. Even try leaving your bike in one gear on the way home, or as I sometime do, keep pedalling (while braking) until near a complete stop. Find this nearly simulates it, even though it's just my habit from riding only fixed.

I was single speed for a while before getting my new hub, but whoever owned it before me (it came from a skip) threw the cassette back on, without anything to hold it in place, so when I stopped pedalling, it'd unscrew and grind apart. Hence it was a cross between SS and FG (one gear, but couldn't stop pedalling).

Ghost Rider

It's not nonsense, in fairness. This isn't just about gear ratio. On a singlespeed, the chain is much shorter and doesn't have to travel around two jockey wheels. I'm no physicist but it's obvious that that's far more mechanically efficient.

(My point about that particular gear was that if you were running a much lower one, you wouldn't notice as much acceleration at the lights. This is still the case: shifting up on a geared bike takes time. Either this is the explanation or I'm an incredibly fast cyclist. And I don't think I am.)

Lumen wrote: »

That's complete nonsense, in fairness.

42/16 is 69.2 inches.

A compact with 11-23 (for instance) has 69.0 inches in 34/13, and 69.4 in 50/19.

Is there something particularly magical about the .2?

Ghost Rider

Some comments here from a man more authorised than I am to speak on the subject of singlespeed drivetrain efficiency:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/singlespeed.html

Lumen wrote: »

That's complete nonsense, in fairness.

42/16 is 69.2 inches.

A compact with 11-23 (for instance) has 69.0 inches in 34/13, and 69.4 in 50/19.

Is there something particularly magical about the .2?

blorg

copacetic wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with this at all, I think I have roughly the opposite commute to you (based on seeing you going the other way on the link road) with the extra hilly bits further out added on. Gnearally it's downhill with the wind every morning and uphill against the wind every evening. I'm probably 5-10 gears different on average.

Dublin is quite a hilly city if you live 5-6 miles from the city centre.

Sure, but I DO do basically the same commute on a fixed gear! There is a trade-off, I am slightly faster on the downhill bit on a geared bike but honestly we are talking 1 or 2 minutes max here over my commute. My max speed downhill on the commuter (42-15) is in the region of 35-40km/h rather than 45-50km/h- which would only be achieved for short bits between lights in any case. For a commute over short distances I don't think that really matters. And a lot of people would have flatter commutes. Obviously my cadence is higher going downhill than going up, as I said one of the benefits is that you get comfortable with a wide cadence range.

@07Lapierre- you seemed to completely discount the cleaning/maintenance benefits having never experienced them... They honestly require much less cleaning. I am sure to use mine on a wet commute as much to protect my geared bike as anything else. My commuter fixie also has full guards and a rack.

You say you clean your bike after every ride - I can only presume from that you don't commute by bike? Commuting is one of the most suitable and common applications for a fixed/SS bike. Besides that they are fun to ride over longer distances and I have a racier one (currently 46-14) for flattish sportives, training, etc. On a flattish course I think they even have an advantage. On the racier one I have done better over a 25 mile TT than on my geared road bike (sample size of two.)

Commuter/racer:

blorg

The drivetrain is a bit more efficient, how much is debated but in my experience it certainly "feels" more so. Most important it stays more efficient even when filthy, so while the efficiency may be only 1% over an absolutely immaculate derailleur system with a new chain and in a gear with perfect chainline, it increases as both bikes get dirty or you are cross-chaining to a greater extent.

Basically a fixed gear feels like your road bike does immediately after you have fitted a new chain... and it stays feeling like that, all the time, with virtually no maintenance.

To be honest though I don't think that massively affects acceleration at lights- on a geared bike I would make sure to get into the right gear to start before I stop. When you apply pressure on the cranks on a geared bike in terms of speed of engagement this pulls directly on the cogs at the back, the jockey wheels etc. are on the return path of the chain. The efficiency losses you get through friction and chain angle and wouldn't have a particular effect on how quickly you can accelerate (as opposed to just keep the thing moving in general.)

I do think the efficiency is great enough to be of a benefit in over for example a 40km time trial... But not so much in my commute. It does feel better though.

Lumen

Ghost Rider wrote: »

It's not nonsense, in fairness. This isn't just about gear ratio. On a singlespeed, the chain is much shorter and doesn't have to travel around two jockey wheels. I'm no physicist but it's obvious that that's far more mechanically efficient.

From what I've read, bicycle drivetrain power losses are so small as to be within the margin of error for power measurement.

So even if it was twice as efficient (or half as lossy) as a derailleur system it wouldn't make you measurably faster.

Ghost Rider wrote: »

(My point about that particular gear was that if you were running a much lower one, you wouldn't notice as much acceleration at the lights.

Upshifting delays are more than compensated for by the benefits of varied gearing.

Bottom line: there are lots of advantages of single speed bikes, but speed isn't one of them.

Greyspoke

+1 on the why gears anyway?
Now I'm definitely not anti-gears as I have several mtbs with 27 of them plus a part built road bike that I haven't got around to finishing, mostly because I'm perfectly happy on a single gear (fixed since the beginning of the year).
Okay, so I do nearly all my cycling on the flatlands of Kildare but when I do venture into the hills I enjoy the challenge of getting up them in the one gear. I find there's a greater sense of achievement making it to the top of a hill when you've no choice about the gear you're using (and possibly not making it at all) than twiddling a low gear, knowing that you'll get there eventually.
Using gears enables you to optimize performance and efficiency while minimizing energy expenditure and that makes a lot of sense but if you're not bothered about utilising those efficiencies then single geared bikes make an attractive alternative.
There is a lot to be said for keeping things as simple as possible.

07Lapierre

I commute 3 days a week on a road bike(Does this mean I'm not a "real" commuter?). When i arrive home i run the chain thru a cloth to remove any grime and wipe down any heavy dirt. I've never had any real mechanical problems because the gears are tuned correctly and i don't let grime build up on the chain. On weekends the bike gets a good clean in preparation for the next week.

To someone who commutes on a SS bike, maybe this sounds like a lot of hard work, but to me its not a chore and it keeps the bike in good working order.

blorg

07Lapierre wrote: »

I commute 3 days a week on a road bike(Does this mean I'm not a "real" commuter?). When i arrive home i run the chain thru a cloth to remove any grime and wipe down any heavy dirt. I've never had any real mechanical problems because the gears are tuned correctly and i don't let grime build up on the chain. On weekends the bike gets a good clean in preparation for the next week.

To someone who commutes on a SS bike, maybe this sounds like a lot of hard work, but to me its not a chore and it keeps the bike in good working order.

Well to be honest for me a lot of the reason for commuting on a fixed gear, particularly on a day like today, is to save my geared bike from exposure to really bad weather conditions (it gets enough of that at the weekend.)

Rusty Cogs 08

This argument sounds a bit like, 'why do you avoid something that I don't mind doing'. Obviously, an appealing element of SS ownership (lack of cleaning) holds no attraction for you, although you admit that your attention to cleaning is "sad". You're therefore asking 'I'm sad, why isn't everyone else' ?

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Well to be honest for me a lot of the reason for commuting on a fixed gear, particularly on a day like today, is to give me an excuse to own more bikes

Talking of which, BikeSnob....



It would appear from this photo that Zabriskie is a part of the growing "monstercross" movement. If you're unfamiliar with the "monstercross" bike, it's ostensibly a "go-anywhere" cyclocross bike but is essentially a 29er with drop bars, and it's the next bike people with too many bikes realize they absolutely need and then ride exactly four times just after they finish building up their indispensable S&S coupled porteur-style grocery-getters. Even Fat Cyclist has a "monstercross" bike, and his is a "dinglespeed," which is the drivetrain configuration people with too many bikes realize they absolutely need when they already own multiple geared bikes, fixed gears, and singlespeeds.

Inevitably though, once you have a bike for everything yet still want more bikes you simply start convincing yourself you need hybrids of things you already have.

montac

I've been riding a singlespeed since June of last year. That was fine for a quick commute from Fairview to Portobello, but when I moved to Tallaght, I thought my days on the ss were done for. But, no, I've enjoyed the commute from Tallaght to town (apart from the daily panic while dodging the trucks in Ballymount).
I agree with a lot of what has been said about the non-cleaning benefits of the ss. It's such a simple, silent bike, albeit that it hasn't stopped me pimping it up with better tyres, better hubs, brake blocks etc etc (this cycling lark is some money pit, isn't it!).
But the real benefit for me is the training element. I have found that when I'm tired and I'm going up those hills on my racer, that I'll slip down through the gears and just coast home. With the lack of gears on the ss, it has kinda forced me to keep moving at some sort of pace - otherwise I'll just grind to a complete halt! And that has really helped me when out on the road on my 'real' bike!

copacetic

Wez wrote: »

I really like not having to click up and down through gears that will eventually need a hefty service (a close friends bike has been off the road for months because of a re-occuring gearing problem, and that was his sole bike, commuter etc).

Anyone whose bike is off the road for months due to a gearing issue needs a slap in the head, not a single speed. I've been cycling for 25 years or so and never had a geared bike unusable for more than a few minutes in all that time. Its pretty easy to convert a geared bike into a one speed for pretty much any problem.

blorg wrote: »

Sure, but I DO do basically the same commute on a fixed gear!

you do though, doncha though! but you're fit!

Personally I like how single speeds and fixies look. All the other reasons are just excuses to follow the fashion. If they were really solid reasons then people would never have used gears.

Besides nearly all the 'technical reasons' will be resolved with a hub geared bike anyway. In 5 years most commuters will be hub geared belt driven imo.