Near Miss

Had an interesting near miss on the way home which would have been completely my fault. Felt like sharing since, well, it'd ensure I learn from it.

I was waiting for the green light at St. Stephen's Green (looking to go straight towards Earnsfort Terrace - heading south) and I was as far right in the bus lane as I was comfortable with, to allow buses to turn left to continue on the N11 since the filter light was on. The light changed to straight + left and I kicked off intending to flick back to the lefter part of the lane, when I noticed out of the corner of my eye the corner of a white single decker bus edging up. Swung a bit to the right, sped up, indicated and overtook as normal to get back in position.

Stupid of me not to look I admit, and potentially something which could have been very costly *touch wood*. What I find interesting, thinking about it, is that I was being respectful to other road users by not blocking the way for buses yet this almost helped cause an incident.

Not sure what else to add just needed to get that off my chest.

Turbulent Bill

I admire your respect of other road users, but for junctions like that I'd just pretend to be a bus (with 'brum, brum' sounds if you like ) and take the whole lane. If there's a risk of you being taken out from the left then just block that option.

The other alternative might be to break the stop line and move half-way through the junction (with you in the centre of the lane), leaving enough space behind for busses to turn left. I wouldn't be keen on it though!

penexpers

I don't believe that bikes are allowed on that road in any case.

penexpers

penexpers wrote: »

I don't believe that bikes are allowed on that road in any case.

Interesting, i've never noticed any signs up stating that. I just assumed that it's bus and taxi and cyclist as normal.

Victor

Dónal wrote: »

The light changed to straight + left

The light to go left changes a good 15-30 seconds before the light to go straight.

penexpers wrote: »

I don't believe that bikes are allowed on that road in any case.

I'm working on that. :cool:

Dónal wrote: »

Interesting, i've never noticed any signs up stating that. I just assumed that it's bus and taxi and cyclist as normal.

Its a contraflow bus lane, which taxis aren't allow use. It isn't a bus + cycle lane.

DirkVoodoo

There is definitely a cycle lane on the leeson street part though, isn't there?

quenching

I use that junction every day and have to agree its a tricky one, oddly enough I take the same approach to it as Dónal, sticking to the right of the bus lane to allow buses to to turn left. I'm never completely happy doing it as some traffic turning right from Leeson St onto the Green is moving fairly fast often comes quite close. Most buses turning left do so slowly and with caution but some tend to just sweep by with inches to spare. I think I might start to take a more aggressive approach and just block the bus lane and put up with the beeping horns.

Oh, and by the way, its a bus lane just like any other, so cyclists are perfectly entitled to use it.

penexpers

quenching wrote: »

Oh, and by the way, its a bus lane just like any other, so cyclists are perfectly entitled to use it.

No they are not. The sign at the start quite clearly states "BUS ONLY" and the blue bus lane sign does not have a bicycle on it.

Chips Lovell

I went on that stretch once only to realise it was bus only. Would kind of explain why you'd have a problem with left turning buses.

blorg

Penexpers is correct, legally cyclists are not allowed use contra-flow bus lanes. There is an explicit bike track along the Leeson Street one but not that one running up the green. I must confess the prohibition on use of contra-flow bus lanes is not one I observe myself.

happy_73

anyone have problems with people opening doors without looking? Yesterday on the way home I was on the left of cars stuck in traffic and a passenger opened their door without looking. Right shoulder and knee are fairly wrecked. Massive bruising on the shoulder, GP said I was lucky as another inch over and I could have broken the collar bone. On pain killers and anti inflammatories now.

According to the GPS I was doing 14-15mph (24/25kph), just about 20 yards before that I was doing about 20mph but slowed down as I came upon the traffic. Wouldn't like to know what shape I'd be in if I it happened at that speed.

On the bike front, the shifter and brake seem to be damaged, also the crank is making a fairly bad noise when rotated.

Victor

happy_73 wrote: »

anyone have problems with people opening doors without looking? Yesterday on the way home I was on the left of cars stuck in traffic and a passenger opened their door without looking. Right shoulder and knee are fairly wrecked. Massive bruising on the shoulder, GP said I was lucky as another inch over and I could have broken the collar bone. On pain killers and anti inflammatories now.

According to the GPS I was doing 14-15mph (24/25kph), just about 20 yards before that I was doing about 20mph but slowed down as I came upon the traffic. Wouldn't like to know what shape I'd be in if I it happened at that speed.

On the bike front, the shifter and brake seem to be damaged, also the crank is making a fairly bad noise when rotated.

Drivers are responsible for the actions of their passengers. I hope you got their details.

Chips Lovell

If you're passing parked cars on the right, leave sufficient space between you and them to avoid getting doored. If passing up the inside of a line of traffic, moderate your speed to allow for emergency stops. I'd definitely be going a lot slower than 20kph in these circumstances.

happy_73

Victor wrote: »

Drivers are responsible for the actions of their passengers. I hope you got their details.

Yeah I did, she pulled in up the road and I had a chat with her. She offered me cash for GP but I said no and I would get back to her if I ended up going. Got home and my OH saw me and dragged me out the door to the GP! Think it was all the blood running down my leg that did it! I'll have to get the bike checked out by my LBS.

happy_73

el tonto wrote: »

If you're passing parked cars on the right, leave sufficient space between you and them to avoid getting doored. If passing up the inside of a line of traffic, moderate your speed to allow for emergency stops. I'd definitely be going a lot slower than 20kph in these circumstances.

Yeah I know - usually would be going slower in that situation but just wanted to get home.

DirkVoodoo

Saw a particularly close one recently. Guy dropping his daughter at the bus stop on the N11 just past Nutley ave, pulled up alongside the cycle lane (not in it) and the passenger door swung open. Cyclist using the lane managed to swerve and avoid the door. Really stupid.

Dr_Colossus

What's the actual law on someone opening a passenger door when in traffic and there's no cycle lane on the inside? For example there's a double yellow line with say 1/2 meter space in which you're cycling and someone stuck in traffic opens a door on you.
Saw this happen going up Dame St a few months ago where the cyclist in front of me went into the door and over the handlebars, after picking himself up of the ground he totally lost the head and started on the driver threatening to pull him out of the car for a beating. Technically I guess you're not supposed to overtake on the inside and also you're to be prepared to stop for unexpected eventualities in front of you, ie when you rear end someone you're at fault.
Different where there's an actual cycle lane as the person in the outer lane is encroaching on your designated lane.

DirkVoodoo

I would probably always go around the outside of the car. Even in the case I mentioned, the driver had his hazards on and so the cyclist should have used the ample room available to move around. It was more just the shock of seeing the door swing open with no regard that I was pointing out.

mmclo

blorg wrote: »

There is an explicit bike track along the Leeson Street one but not that one running up the green.

So there is no official way if getting on to it?

DirkVoodoo

mmclo wrote: »

So there is no official way if getting on to it?

dismount and walk, apparently. Another fine example of thoughtful design.

tomasrojo

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

.
Different where there's an actual cycle lane as the person in the outer lane is encroaching on your designated lane.

I'm not sure legally that a cycle lane makes any difference. The one case I know of that went to trial, they decided not to prosecute the driver because the cyclist overtook illegally on the inside (using a cycle lane). Cycle lanes don't give you the legal right to pass on the inside. Bizarre, I know. In the Netherlands, cyclists are allowed to pass on the inside, and drivers expect them to do so; same in Denmark. I don't like exceptionalism for cyclists, but if you're going to insist on having facilities that encourage people to pass on the inside, I suppose it's more logical to pass legislation that makes it a legal manoeuvre.

Best is to overtake on the outside whenever possible, regardless of cycle lanes. You know that whoever designed it is probably an ignoramus anyway. Where you can't overtake on the outside,best to proceed with caution on the inside.

tomasrojo

-- misread; deleting post --

blorg

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

What's the actual law on someone opening a passenger door when in traffic and there's no cycle lane on the inside? For example there's a double yellow line with say 1/2 meter space in which you're cycling and someone stuck in traffic opens a door on you.
...
Technically I guess you're not supposed to overtake on the inside and also you're to be prepared to stop for unexpected eventualities in front of you, ie when you rear end someone you're at fault.

Most jurisdictions have an explicit legal obligation on a motorist to check before opening their vehicle's door. Certainly in the UK people have been convicted of a criminal offence for dooring cyclists as well as losing civil cases.

I'm not sure what the exact legal situation is here. Filtering by cyclists is legal and there are countless warnings in the ROTR to look for cyclists on your inside.

Regarding the door ROTR says:

ROTR wrote:

Never put a cyclist or motorcyclist at risk and know your duty to be aware of them. They are especially vulnerable if there is a crash.

In particular, watch for cyclists and motorcyclists:
...
when opening your door to get out of a vehicle,

My feeling on it is that a motorist would be held liable in almost any circumstance in a civil case. It may also be a criminal offence although these things don't seem to be prosecuted here unless you kill someone and rarely even then.

Doctor Bob

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

dismount and walk, apparently. Another fine example of thoughtful design.

Strange. but true.

When the lane on Leeson Street was put in the traffic direction on Stephen's Green was different- the east side was fully southbound (now, it's only the bus lane that goes south), so cyclists could legally get to it. Whether they could legally use it is another matter- I'm pretty sure the 'no cycling in contraflow bus lanes' rule applies, even though there's a lane marked.

I'm getting dizzy. I need to lie down.

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not sure legally that a cycle lane makes any difference. The one case I know of that went to trial, they decided not to prosecute the driver because the cyclist overtook illegally on the inside (using a cycle lane). Cycle lanes don't give you the legal right to pass on the inside.

You can pass on the inside if traffic stopped or "moving in queues." This goes for all road users, cars included. If you think about it for a second if you were NEVER allowed undertake this would mean all traffic would have to halt behind a car waiting to make a right turn, even if there were two distinct lanes and it was in the right hand one. You could never have two lanes with a filter left at a junction as all traffic would have to stop behind a car going straight on. This is obviously ridiculous and is not legally mandated.

blorg

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Whether they could legally use it is another matter- I'm pretty sure the 'no cycling in contraflow bus lanes' rule applies, even though there's a lane marked.

It is fine in that case, the situation then is that there is BOTH a contra-flow bus lane AND a contra-flow cycle track on the road. There are a (very) few other locations that have examples of just a contra-flow cycle track on its own such as Andrew St.

p15574

I got doored, coincidentally enough, at the exact location the OP started the thread on, except going in the other direction - I was taking a right from Leeson St onto Stephen's Green. Just where the 'cone' thingies end, about 3 metres after the turn, some prat lets his daughter open her door (there's a school right there), instead of pulling in to the side of the road. Thankfully I didn't hit her, but did go over the door. I didn't feel too bad - the usual embarassment of suddenly seeing people looking down at me - but nothing really physically wrong. I had a bit of a stiff neck though, so went to a GP later. Four years on, and I have chronic pain - my shoulder is killing me as I type this. Someone did suggest that if it went to court they may have found against me for undertaking, but luckily the motorist held his hand up and even reported it to the guards himself when he got home. It went to the Injuries Board and got settled, but I'd much rather have my neck and shoulder working again. I can predict damp weather in advance now too! Lesson: you may feel ok right afterwards, but these things can develop later, and persist for life! I now have a certain sympathy for people I would've previously thought were just after the 'compo' if they appeared ok immediately after an incident, but developed injuries later. Not all of them, mind!

I think we should be proactive in attemting to predict this sort of thing, but the liability should definitely lie with the motorist. Being doored perpendicular to the door is bad enough, but I dread getting the edge of the door, especially if it's a truck where the door is high enough to get you in the head.

Rob_l

Like the OP I had assummed I was allowed to use this bus lane on Stephens green and like the OP I pull wide to the right to allow buses take the left up leeson street.

Yet again I learn something new on this forum, still not sure if I wont use the this small section of bus lane to get home.

Also on another note if it is only buses that are allowed, I have seen countless taxi's use it and in many instances i have seen a police car follow them not with the intention of stopping them just that they were also heading that way.

happy_73

p15574 wrote: »

Being doored perpendicular to the door is bad enough, but I dread getting the edge of the door, especially if it's a truck where the door is high enough to get you in the head.

The edge got me in the right shoulder, bruising is only now coming up. The whole shoulder and bicep is very bad and you can see about a 6-10 inch red gash mark along the shoulder when the edge of the door made contact. Herself can't even look at it as she gets the shivers. Jasus it's unthinkable what would have happened if it was a truck door around head height alright.

Jumpy

happy_73 wrote: »

The edge got me in the right shoulder, bruising is only now coming up. The whole shoulder and bicep is very bad and you can see about a 6-10 inch red gash mark along the shoulder when the edge of the door made contact. Herself can't even look at it as she gets the shivers. Jasus it's unthinkable what would have happened if it was a truck door around head height alright.

Surely your helmet would save you no?

happy_73

Jumpy wrote: »

Surely your helmet would save you no?

It probably would have but part of the door could make contact with the face depending on the way you would fall on impact.

tomasrojo

happy_73 wrote: »

The edge got me in the right shoulder, bruising is only now coming up. The whole shoulder and bicep is very bad and you can see about a 6-10 inch red gash mark along the shoulder when the edge of the door made contact. Herself can't even look at it as she gets the shivers. Jasus it's unthinkable what would have happened if it was a truck door around head height alright.

I saw this happen in Phibsborough. The girl was wearing a helmet, but she got struck in the face, near the eye. Not sure how bad her injuries were, but she was very distressed. Her boyfriend or husband who was with her began remonstrating with the driver who'd opened the door in her path.

The odd thing was, she had plenty of time to avoid the door. There was about three seconds between the door opening in her path and her hitting it. She just wasn't paying attention, and neither was the driver. I was cycling about 100m behind her before it happened, and I did think, just before the door opened, that she was cycling way too close to the parked truck.

cdaly_

blorg wrote: »

You can pass on the inside if traffic stopped or "moving in queues." This goes for all road users, cars included. If you think about it for a second if you were NEVER allowed undertake this would mean all traffic would have to halt behind a car waiting to make a right turn, even if there were two distinct lanes and it was in the right hand one.

You'll note in the rules that it specifies "... if traffic in your lane ...". In the instance where there is a cycle lane marked on the road, you may be clear to pass on the left but, if there is no cycle lane marked, you are in the same lane as the stopped vehicle and so probably are not allowed pass on the left...

tomasrojo

blorg wrote: »

You can pass on the inside if traffic stopped or "moving in queues." This goes for all road users, cars included. If you think about it for a second if you were NEVER allowed undertake this would mean all traffic would have to halt behind a car waiting to make a right turn, even if there were two distinct lanes and it was in the right hand one. You could never have two lanes with a filter left at a junction as all traffic would have to stop behind a car going straight on. This is obviously ridiculous and is not legally mandated.

I see what you mean, but the point I was trying to make is that the Law doesn't seem to regard cycle lanes as separate lanes. They are part of the traffic lane they are painted in.

There's nothing in writing about this, but it's the only explanation for the way the courts have ruled.

blorg

cdaly_ wrote: »

You'll note in the rules that it specifies "... if traffic in your lane ...". In the instance where there is a cycle lane marked on the road, you may be clear to pass on the left but, if there is no cycle lane marked, you are in the same lane as the stopped vehicle and so probably are not allowed pass on the left...

In the absence of a lane it is called "filtering" and is generally considered to be legal (it explicitly is in the UK.) The topic of filtering generally comes up in relation to motorcyclists and "they were undertaking" never seems to swing as a defence in terms of liability.

In any case there is still an obligation on the motorist to check before opening a door/changing their course etc. There are countless references to checking for cyclists on your inside in the ROTR and indeed that is where motorists reasonably expect cyclists to be (I have been hit myself OVERtaking as the motorist "expected" me to undertake and didn't check before swinging right.)

Note even if a cyclist were doing something illegal there is still an obligation on the motorist to check. Simply doing something illegal does not affect liability, the illegal act has to directly contribute to the accident. Someone on biker.ie reported being hit by a car swinging across a cycle lane while he was (illegally) riding his motorbike in the cycle lane. Motorist was found 100% at fault as they did not check.

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

I see what you mean, but the point I was trying to make is that the Law doesn't seem to regard cycle lanes as separate lanes. They are part of the traffic lane they are painted in.

There's nothing in writing about this, but it's the only explanation for the way the courts have ruled.

What are the details of this/these cases?

tomasrojo

It's this case in particular I'm thinking of:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0125/ireland/cwsnojauojcw/

Judge White expressed his sympathy to the victim's family for their "tragic loss" but ruled that there was not enough evidence to suggest that Mr Dunne had been driving without due care and attention

The truck swung across a cycle lane in doing the turn.

tomasrojo

Hmm, actually, that's a different case. I'll have to check my files. That doesn't seem to be a cycle-lane incident.

Thanks for challenging me on this.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

The light to go left changes a good 15-30 seconds before the light to go straight.

Got a bus back this way last night and I was sitting up the front. The light does indeed go green for left filter, and then left + straight.

penexpers wrote: »

No they are not. The sign at the start quite clearly states "BUS ONLY" and the blue bus lane sign does not have a bicycle on it.

Interestingly there's also a sign just before the junction in question which says ‘left turn for buses only’. I did notice the ‘bus only signs’ though earlier on on the journey.

tomasrojo

Mea culpa. That was the case I was thinking of, and looking at it on Google Maps, it doesn't look as if there was a cycle lane.

It is a case of passing on the inside, but doesn't support what I said. So it only shows that if you get injured passing on the inside in the same lane you will probably not find favour at trial.

There have been people injured/killed by left hooks on cycle lanes though. Anyone know of a successful prosecution for dangerous driving, given that the motorised vehicle would have to be swinging across an adjacent lane to complete the procedure, if the cycle lane is officially a separate lane in law.

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's this case in particular I'm thinking of:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0125/ireland/cwsnojauojcw/

The truck swung across a cycle lane in doing the turn.

That is pretty bad; the driver would almost certainly be found liable in a civil case for damages though.

I agree dangerous driving is almost never prosecuted here.