Wattasaver?

brightspark

Does this make sense to anyone here??


http://www.wattasaver.com/electricityoptimizer.html


"The Watt A Saver Electricity Optimizer stores the electricity inside of it using a system of capacitors which allow the electricity to be released is a smoother way without the spikes. Our system will also automatically remove carbon from the circuit which also encourages a smoother electrical flow. All of this means you will have less power 'spikes' so more of the electricity flowing around your circuit can be used to power your appliances"

"You can expect up to 30% savings on your Electricity Bill"


I find it hard to believe that spikes etc. can account for up to 30% of electrical consumption.

davelerave

seems to be surge protection and PFC .don't know where the saving comes from.
you buyin or sellin:D?

brightspark

Definately not selling.

Unless I get proof both of theory and operation I won't be buying either.

I know that I'm going to be asked for my opinion about it over the next week as it got a lot of coverage in the local paper.

I think you're right Davelerave it's surge protection and PFC.

I suppose the esb might want to start charging domestic users for wattless units when we all have CFLs installed:D but that would mean giving selling us all new meters too.

380 euro installed is a lot for a surge protector (albeit including the cost of putting in a new socket adjacent to the fuseboard)

davelerave

not sure that device would handle large external surges properly.they're normally diverted from busbar straight to MET in the box

Hoagy

Have a look at this

DublinDilbert

I would guess its a big cap, and its creating a leading current (over correction of PF).

By messing with the PF, it is possible that a traditional ESB meter would be fooled into thinking there is less power flowing in, due to its principal of operation. A smart meter would not be fooled by this device.

mossy2

Hello There
Took a look at the Watt A Saver website.

As you're looking into this product might I suggest that you ask them the following:
1. Ask them for a copy of the studies that shows a 30% electricity saving.
2. How many electrical engineers they employ.
3. Where exactly does the carbon build up in your electrical installation and how does this product clear it out. Where does the cleaned out carbon go? Perhaps it all get flushed out at the distribution board from where you can sweep it out and put it in the bin?

I would base my purchasing decision on the answers to these questions.

Could you please update us on how you get on with those queries? I'd be fascinated to hear more about this miraculous product

Fnergg

Their website says: This device is fully LEGAL and is HIGHLY ENCOURAGED by National Electricity Boards as it helps REDUCING ENERGY CONSUMPTION and goes a long way in Helping our Environment.

The ESB does not endorse this product nor, to my knowledge, does any other electricity utilty.

The claim that customers can save 30% of their electricity costs by installing the device is ludicrous.

Regards,

Fnergg

brightspark

Found an almost identical unit for sale in other countries

http://utilcoholdings.co.za/ecovista.php



and in Malaysia

http://www.extramile.com.my/buypowersaver.html

Only about 48 Euro as opposed to about 380 Euro here!


At least those ads are a bit more honest in that they show a reduction in amps not kWhs.

Paulo1

Hi all, There are a couple of things fundementally wrong with this product.
1. The price!
2. The claims being made about it's efficiency.
3. How it protects your home from surges.

1.The price is self explanitory. At least Dick Turpin had a gun!
2.This device will save you nothing! This is purely a capacitor in a box which attempts to improve power factor, but guess what, the ESB don't penalise domestic users for poor power factor! Domestic meters measure KWh not KVar.(Resistive Vs Reactive definately for another day!!) On average all domestic homes have a power factor of around 0.9. THis is because all modern fridges washing machines etc. already correct this. Just look at the tags on them.
3. Typically these chinese devices will protect from surges using a MOV. Guess what, they have a finite life, so you might survive one or two minor hits, think your continuously protected but your not. THese cheap devices have no way of telling you they have died. The same applies to electrical extension blocks.
So don't be fooled. Spend your €380 on LED and CFL bulbs and you will see REAL savings!

badolepuddytat

Agreed, Domestic PF is included in the price.

This is a local company to me, nad they have just dropped a leaflet in the door.

I actually think that they were hoodwinked - they are using a domestic CT with no voltage measurement.

Can this be reported to the consumers association??

Stoner

I liked the bit about automatically removing carbon from systems the most. Sounds like there was an argument made in another language about saving electricity will save trees/carbon due to efficiency improvements, maybe the translator was confused.

rossy47

hey lads
a sales person called to my home selling the wattasaver unit, so i asked him to come in and i showed him one i got installed previously by a company, i think it was power tune, www.fuelsaver.ni check it out, but after two months i had 50 euro reduced on my ESB bill. my mother also had 40 euro savings on hers. Intrigued to know how this works.... can any1 help.

Fnergg

rossy47 wrote: »

hey lads
a sales person called to my home selling the wattasaver unit, so i asked him to come in and i showed him one i got installed previously by a company, i think it was power tune, www.fuelsaver.ni check it out, but after two months i had 50 euro reduced on my ESB bill. my mother also had 40 euro savings on hers. Intrigued to know how this works.... can any1 help.

I simply don't believe it could possibly have contributed to the savings because you are not charged for wattless units, the only type of usage that these devices reduce.

There could be many other reasons for the reduction you experienced: you used less electricity, your previous bills were over-estimated, there were fewer days in the billing period.

If these devices worked Governments world-wide would be subsidising people to buy them.

Regards,

Fnergg

Dotsie~tmp

Most ordinary people have no idea what power factor is so explaining it is hard. I'll try in a few words.

Power (P) = Voltage x Ampage
KVAh = (P / 1000) x hours

You are billed for you power consumption in KVAh (kilowatts per hour). However because most is electrical circuits are inductive to some degree there are two types of power reading. KVAh & KVArh. The second one you can think of as you "real" consumption. The difference can be considered the PF (power factor).

A domestic house has few inductive loads (like fluorescent lights) so traditionally an electromechanical meter was used which only measure KVAh not your "real" KVArh usage which is more but not much. Businesses which often have a much higher inductive load get a CT meter (big and expensive) which measures the second "real" KVArh measurement + multi tariffs functionality maybe.

KVArh matters because this is the real demand that the ESB has to supply. Businesses can receive stiff penalties if they let their PF become to high (low ?). Sometime PF corrction is even applied in factories and is very expensive.

By fooling your domestic meter with one of these PF correction devices it can potentially fool the meter into measuring less current.

DublinDilbert

Can someone correct me if i'm wrong here, but the only way this device can register less power, is if it over corrects the power factor, ie brings it from lagging -> Leading.

If the device just brings the PF back to unity, your traditional ESB meter will actually read a higher value, as both the voltage and current will be exactly in phase.

Dotsie~tmp

Actually what am I saying?! Surely the whole point to fool the meter would be to add to the lagging power factor not correct it?

PLAIN WRONG

DublinDilbert

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Actually what am I saying?! Surely the whole point to fool the meter would be to add to the lagging power factor not correct it?

Thats my point really.....

You could add extra inductance in series with the incoming supply, which would worsen the PF, or you could add capacitors in parallel and over correct the PF, both would have the same net effect.

Dotsie~tmp

So yes i suppose these could work on the traditional meter. Depends how aggressive the added inductance is. Id image it would have to be quite bulky to be useful?

Here's a pic for those wondering what effect increasing the reactiveness of the load has. Its important to keep in mind that these thngs save NO energy. They would just fool your meter into measuring less usage.

IM AN IDIOT

cornet

This is a scam.

Single phase:
P = V*I*cos(phi)

By using the PFC device you bring cos(phi) towards unity and your current reduces since your voltage remains at 230V.
However your active power (P) remains the same ! So your bill stays the same.

PFC is common in major industrial plants where there are penalties for poor power factor but are a waste of time for domestic/small business users.

Dotsie~tmp

They obviously dont correct the PF with leading capacitors. The make it worse with a coil. See diagram.

Its anti-PFC. Im still very sceptical for the 30% claim.

bleh

cornet

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

They obviously dont correct the PF with leading capacitors. The make it worse with a coil. See diagram.

Its anti-PFC. Im still very sceptical for the 30% claim.

The diagram states kVA paid to ESB. You don't pay for kVA - you pay for kW (or more precisely kWhr).

Inductive loads such as motors & fluorescent lights consume reactive power (VArs) and hence reduce the power factor. Capacitors generate reactive power so therefore improve the power factor [cos(phi)]. I suggest you read up about power factor correction - ABB, Siemens etc all have good online material.

The real current will be reduced but the real power consumed will remain the same.

rossy47

Is that ilegal, how is it possible to fool

Dotsie~tmp

cornet wrote: »

The diagram states kVA paid to ESB. You don't pay for kVA - you pay for kW (or more precisely kWhr).

Inductive loads such as motors & fluorescent lights consume reactive power (VArs) and hence reduce the power factor. Capacitors generate reactive power so therefore improve the power factor [cos(phi)]. I suggest you read up about power factor correction - ABB, Siemens etc all have good online material.

The real current will be reduced but the real power consumed will remain the same.

Lol kVA and kW are the same thing. I did short hand on the paid notation. Top in phase line is kVAh (domestic measured) and the phasor is the properly labled kVArh (kWh reactive). The diagram remains valid.

This Device is NOT power factor correction but making it worse. Something the ESB wouldnt like.

DublinDilbert

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

They obviously dont correct the PF with leading capacitors. The make it worse with a coil. See diagram.

Its anti-PFC. Im still very sceptical for the 30% claim.

Ummmm the coil you would need would need to be connected in series with the entire supply for the house, and be rated for the full load current of the house, eg say 75A! That's one serious inductor. You don't think they really do that? :eek:

If you over-correct the PF with caps, you'll get exactly the same effects! These need to be connected in parallel across the supply. :rolleyes:

Dotsie~tmp

rossy47 wrote: »

Is that ilegal, how is it possible to fool

Hard to say. I can see why they included that surge bull****.

Dotsie~tmp

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Ummmm the coil you would need would need to be connected in series with the entire supply for the house, and be rated for the full load current of the house, eg say 75A! That's one serious inductor. You don't think they really do that? :eek:

If you over-correct the PF with caps, you'll get exactly the same effects! These need to be connected in parallel across the supply. :rolleyes:

Exactly. In theory you might say why not use this to create an inductive load that take the no reactive power towards nothing. But in relity it would be practically impossible. Given the size of it im unsure it would do anything.

WRONG

cornet

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Lol kVA and kW are the same thing. I did short hand on the paid notation.

Your diagram is wrong and you clearly don't understand power factor correction and phasor diagrams.

VA is apparent power (S)
W is real power (P)
VAr is reactive power (Q)

S=P+jQ
where for single phase applications
P=VIcos(phi)
Q=VIsin(phi)

Domestic usage is measured and billed for Watts only - check the ESB website.

Dotsie~tmp

How many time has it to be said this is NOT a PFC device. Its supposed to reduce the apparent power by moving the PF away from unity. The opposite of PFC. I still think it wont work though.

WRONG

brightspark

According to the company

"The unit does increase power factor and there fore can reduce your reactive power."

Also as the unit plugs in we can be sure that it is not a large inductor in series with the supply to the whole house.

Dotsie your diagrams are wrong.

The hypothenuse of the triangle is the kVA(hours) (apparent power).
The next longest side is the kW(hours) which the meter reads as units of electricity.
And the shortest side is the kVar(hours) (the reactive power)


For a beginners guide to power factor the first few pages of this pdf seem to be both accurate and easy to follow. (esp pages 2 and 3)

http://www.powerstudies.com/articles/PowerFactorBasics.pdf


Alhough ESB meters are supposed to measure kWhrs does anyone know of anything that might suggest that at extreme power factors they might become inaccurate?

(But "Paddock and Galvin" show diagrams for determining power factor by using a wattmeter, a voltmeter and an ampmeter, when no power factor meter is available)

Dotsie~tmp

Yes you are right its been a while. I've got my labels mixed up but the thing is straight in my head.

Back to basics. I'm right in saying a domestic ESB electro-mechanical meter measures kWh (working power)?

For business/commercial I believe you must enter the kWh + the kVAr readings off two meters so they can determine the apparent power kVA (which is what they are really interested in). This could imply that for domestic customer, if you can increase your kVAr for a given load, then your "working power" would decrease?

Or as I'm thinking now can the "working power" never actually be decreased and that a unity PF is the best u can get? In other words my diagram is wrong!

Dotsie~tmp

In which case this device would be of little use to domestic premises with old-style meter which takes no account of reactive load OR one which has little inductive load?

rossy47

in all frairness i know how to read a esb bill and also checked units from last year and compared.so i pluged out power saver yesterday for 4 hours run some appliances and took note of time. meter read 36270.3 after 4 hours meter read 36273.9 so done same test with saver started at 36274.0 and after 4 hours it read 36276.9 so 3.6 from 2.9 is .7kwhr saved or .7 of a unit saved how is this be. is there something im missing is it possible meters do pick up on wattless i know certain things need a certain amount of wattless power to start like motors flourescent lights so if you need that wattless power is that free from supplier does anyone really know for certain how electricity meters really operate i know about reading up on them that they say dont read wattless anyone ever split one. i know iduction meters creep and they say that it is a phonemon.

cornet

rossy47 wrote: »

is it possible meters do pick up on wattless

Not for domestic installations.

rossy47 wrote: »

is that free from supplier

Yes

rossy47 wrote: »

does anyone really know for certain how electricity meters really operate

Yes.


The only saving you can possibly make is the reduction in Joule Losses (I2R)in the conductor supplying the load. This is minuscule (a tiny fraction of a Watt).

davelerave

There may be a 'placebo' effect with these things.You would want it to work after paying 350 or whatever so you start cutting back a bit on usage.:D

Dotsie~tmp

Has anyone seen the new solid-state domestic meters? Do the measure any of the reactive element?

rossy47

Is there anyone able to come up with how i got savings we are in an estate and 8 of my neighbours have power tune installed and we all have savings on units im honestly baffled i got a instrument technician to check it out for me and he could not explain it?????

rossy47

Does anyone know for sure that electricity meters are that accurate??

cornet

rossy47 wrote: »

Is there anyone able to come up with how i got savings we are in an estate and 8 of my neighbours have power tune installed and we all have savings on units im honestly baffled i got a instrument technician to check it out for me and he could not explain it?????

From your posts it is clear that you belong to one of the companies associated with the marketing and sale of these bogus devices.
First it was you and your parents which installed them, now 8 of your neighbours have it too !

Are you honestly telling us that you monitored a constant load over an 8 hour period yesterday ???

Sounds like you have a warehouse full of junk.

Dotsie~tmp

The so called test you did is junk. How can you be sure you even drew the same load twice over exactly? You cant.

This so called demonstration is a joke. The LCD is showing an animation not any measurement software. These are bought in for 30 quid and flogged on for near 400 on false promises. I mean how inductive can a washing machine be!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs8IBlJRdMs

Hoagy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2f0B-_vxNA

rossy47

Who do you think you are accusing me of such things what proof do you have of what you are sayin do you want the names and addresses of where they are installed

badolepuddytat

ESB meters measure within 2% accuracy Instantaneously, which is deemed as a class 1 meter. aggregated over months, i think it is significantly less than 2%.

The meter measures KWh by measuring current and voltage simultaneously. the effergy/owl meter has a preprogrammed voltage (220V) and only measures current. hence it assumes a PF of unity and hence when they measure the system it shows KVA rather than KWh.


Take CFL bulbs with PF of 0.55(say 10 no. 20W CFL):

P= V.I.PF
P= 240V x 1.5Amps x 0.55= 200W (ESB meter)

So while measuring without the device on while ignoring the PF:
P= V.I
P= 240 x 1.5 = 360W

Now lets correct the PF and hence reduce the current to only the real current instead of real + reactive

P= 240V x .83 Amps x 1= 200W
Hence the magician says the power has gone from 360 W to 200 W.

I'll put a proper power meter and measure it with a resistive and inductive load. give me a few days to get my hand on one.

Caveat Emptor.

cornet

badolepuddytat wrote: »

Take CFL bulbs with PF of 0.55(say 10 no. 20W CFL):

P= V.I.PF
P= 240V x 1.5Amps x 0.55= 200W (ESB meter)

So while measuring without the device on while ignoring the PF:
P= V.I
P= 240 x 1.5 = 360W
Now lets correct the PF and hence reduce the current to only the real current instead of real + reactive

P= 240V x .83 Amps x 1= 200W
Hence the magician says the power has gone from 360 W to 200 W.

You almost have it except
S= V.I
S= 240 x 1.5 = 360VA

the Apparent power has gone from 360 VA to 200 VA.
The real power (W) is still the same at 200W (= 10*20W)!

Youtube have a similar demo to what you propose at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIThybewb_o

Stoner

rossy47 wrote: »

Who do you think you are accusing me of such things what proof do you have of what you are sayin do you want the names and addresses of where they are installed

No such details to be posted on boards please.

Looks like a big cap to me that will alter the PF.

It is true that PFC units save a lot of money for buildings with large consistent inductive loads, chillers, motors etc.

But not a house.

I'm closing this thread now hopefully people will read between the lines.