Was the Lisbon treaty rigged?

samson09

Watch the following clip and you'll see a guy walk out of Cork City Hall with a ballot box, he disappears into the distance. Maybe the box was empty, maybe it wasn't. But if one person could walk away with a ballot box, maybe others did too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t764ACqXK3M

Tellox

samson09 wrote: »

Was the Lisbon treaty rigged?

No.

Dinner

I love the fact that this guy just 'happened' to be recording the people carrying in the ballot boxes and when he spotted somebody carrying a box out of the count centre and he stood well back and made his little video while muttering to himself.

He was so outraged at this subversion of democracy that he stood still before going inside to have a look around.

He had 3 options:

1) Follow the guy and see where he was going or get a reg plate if he got into a car.
2) Stop the guy and ask him what was he doing
3) Do nothing, record it, speak in hushed tones and put the video up on youtube asap.

He went for 3. The guy did the least useful thing possible in the situation. He could have sorted the issue out very quickly by using option 1 or 2. But no, that wouldn't have made a good youtube video would it? That wouldn't add fuel to the fire of a conspiracy now would it?

Which begs the question, why did he do nothing?

Bandit12

Don't know about the clip but out of my circle of friends,work mates,family etc... there is no way in hell 60-70% of them voted yes. If anything i'd say 80% voted no. Go figure.

humanji

Bandit12 wrote: »

Don't know about the clip but out of my circle of friends,work mates,family etc... there is no way in hell 60-70% of them voted yes. If anything i'd say 80% voted no. Go figure.

Hell, I don't know anyone who voted no, so it all depends on who you know, I guess.

GerardKeating

humanji wrote: »

Hell, I don't know anyone who voted no, so it all depends on who you know, I guess.

Same here, most people i talked to voted yes, was surprised the yes vote was not higher...

samson09

Dinner wrote: »

I love the fact that this guy just 'happened' to be recording the people carrying in the ballot boxes and when he spotted somebody carrying a box out of the count centre and he stood well back and made his little video while muttering to himself.

He was so outraged at this subversion of democracy that he stood still before going inside to have a look around.

He had 3 options:

1) Follow the guy and see where he was going or get a reg plate if he got into a car.
2) Stop the guy and ask him what was he doing
3) Do nothing, record it, speak in hushed tones and put the video up on youtube asap.

He went for 3. The guy did the least useful thing possible in the situation. He could have sorted the issue out very quickly by using option 1 or 2. But no, that wouldn't have made a good youtube video would it? That wouldn't add fuel to the fire of a conspiracy now would it?

Which begs the question, why did he do nothing?

Well he was singing away to himself quite a bit, so he was probably after a feed of pints and was too pissed to make any real attempt to stop the guy legging it away with the box.

samson09

Bandit12 wrote: »

Don't know about the clip but out of my circle of friends,work mates,family etc... there is no way in hell 60-70% of them voted yes. If anything i'd say 80% voted no. Go figure.

Me too, but I suppose it all boils down to the type of people you associate with i.e. "nutters"

Max Power1

me too

guess it wasnt rigged, the electorate are even more stupid than i anticipated.

Dinner

samson09 wrote: »

Well he was singing away to himself quite a bit, so he was probably after a feed of pints and was too pissed to make any real attempt to stop the guy legging it away with the box.

Don't think that was him singing. It was the sound from a video that he uploaded a month earlier called "Irish No to Lisbon song". He was also well able to go and have a wander into the count centre without seeming to drunk too follow and approach the man.


Looking at the guy leaving with the box again he's carrying the parcel that contains the left over ballot papers, the stubs from papers used, the marked register of electors plus a form that is filled in by the Presiding Officer that states how many ballot papers were used. Each of these things are in a seperate envelope and each envelope is usually either sealed with tape or a wax seal so anybody could tell if it has been tampered with. Usually that parcel is tied to the top of the ballot box for extra security but by the looks of other people it isn't always done.

There would simply be far too many things to change to feasible alter the result of a referendum. More likely that he was at the wrong count centre or something.

But still, the biggest question for me is why this brave defender of democracy didn't stop the guy and ask him where he was going.

samson09

Max Power1 wrote: »

me too

guess it wasnt rigged, the electorate are even more stupid than i anticipated.

I'd prefer if it had been rigged, for aforementioned reasons. I cant believe so many people fell for the B.S.

"Hook, line and f*ckin wink wink"
(Skip to 2:44)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlso1ASZTyE

The_Kew_Tour

ya never know;)

Tipsy Mac

Even if someone stole half of all boxes the result would still have been more or less the same as there's a mixed bunch of Yes/NO votes in every ballot box, would be impossible to know which would have more Yes/No votes.

squod

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Even if someone stole half of all boxes the result would still have been more or less the same as there's a mixed bunch of Yes/NO votes in every ballot box, would be impossible to know which would have more Yes/No votes.

Amazing comment, truly amazing.

meglome

humanji wrote: »

Hell, I don't know anyone who voted no, so it all depends on who you know, I guess.

I only know one person who voted No.

meglome

Max Power1 wrote: »

me too

guess it wasnt rigged, the electorate are even more stupid than i anticipated.

samson09 wrote: »

I'd prefer if it had been rigged, for aforementioned reasons. I cant believe so many people fell for the B.S.

You know guys you really have very little respect for the people of this country. In the first vote the largest number of people voted No as they had no idea what was in the treaty. So maybe when people did find out what was in the treaty they didn't have a problem with it and they just disagree with you. Sure maybe you're just wrong.

major bill

meglome wrote: »

I only know one person who voted No.

i only know 3 people that voted yes your point been?.

personally it should be investigated. i had emails sent to me by many people expressing their concern by the council in their dealing with the election and the need to keep an eye on these people.

wouldnt suprise me in the slightest!!. the polls in the run up were very close so the final verdict result from a dublin point of view regarding the amount of people i know that voted no just doesnt add up.

Yep. The 20-30 people in the average social circle is a perfect sample size to accurately do an opinion poll.

Don't know why all those proper polls bother to have sample sizes in the thousands.

major bill

King Mob wrote: »

Yep. The 20-30 people in the average social circle is a perfect sample size to accurately do an opinion poll.

Don't know why all those proper polls bother to have sample sizes in the thousands.

sarcasm love it:)

uprising

Very possibly could have been rigged, nothing new there, and they REALLY needed a yes, bastaards. Come what may!

uprising

uprising wrote: »

Very possibly could have been rigged, nothing new there, and they REALLY needed a yes, bastaards. Come what may!

So why didn't they rig the first one?

meglome

King Mob wrote: »

So why didn't they rig the first one?

Maybe they did rig the first one. (See below)

major bill wrote: »

i only know 3 people that voted yes your point been?.

personally it should be investigated. i had emails sent to me by many people expressing their concern by the council in their dealing with the election and the need to keep an eye on these people.

wouldnt suprise me in the slightest!!. the polls in the run up were very close so the final verdict result from a dublin point of view regarding the amount of people i know that voted no just doesnt add up.

Most of the polls around the first vote showed a Yes vote but it was a No. Does that mean it was fixed?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

So why didn't they rig the first one?

They didn't have to.

Dave147

I find it funny how we vote No first, then all of a sudden there's thousands of Yes voters trying to convince everyone to vote yes.. How were all these people's opinions changed? Tbh, I don't care about the Lisbon Treaty, it more than likely won't have any affect on us.

humanji

Dave147 wrote: »

I find it funny how we vote No first, then all of a sudden there's thousands of Yes voters trying to convince everyone to vote yes.. How were all these people's opinions changed?

Well, thanks to the likes of Coir and Libertas, many people would have changed to a Yes. They did more damage to the No campaign than anyone could of thought.

Dave147 wrote: »

Tbh, I don't care about the Lisbon Treaty, it more than likely won't have any affect on us.

That's exactly how I feel about it. It's a bit of housecleaning and nothing else.

Penn

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't have to.

Evidently they did, seeing as how most people expected a No vote the first time. Why go through all the trouble of having to hold a second referendum when they could have rigged the first one in order to be sure that there was a Yes vote? If this was all a big plot by the Masons/NWO/EU, why leave things like this to chance?

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't have to.

So what then?

People just changed their minds and the results where different?

Those bastards!

robtri

major bill wrote: »

i had emails sent to me by many people expressing their concern by the council in their dealing with the election and the need to keep an eye on these people.

care to expalin this???

major bill wrote: »

wouldnt suprise me in the slightest!!. the polls in the run up were very close so the final verdict result from a dublin point of view regarding the amount of people i know that voted no just doesnt add up.

Don't know where you got that from, in the run up to the election the indicators where for a Big yes vote

macshadow

http://www.gopetition.com/online/31224.html a petition has been set up, if you suspect lisbon was rigged please sign it.

So they used pencils instead of pens and an out of context video?
Proof positive alright.

Paddyo

Maybe he was trying to rig it for the no vote - but the extent of the yes vote was too great

K-9

Paddyo wrote: »

Maybe he was trying to rig it for the no vote - but the extent of the yes vote was too great

Not really, the Yes side side was about 15-20% ahead in all the opinion polls.

The only one that showed a No lead was one done by a group close to Coir. Interestingly it was within certain groups and areas. Groups that would tend towards a No anyway. If you did a poll on this board it would have probably showed a No too.

The opinion polls got it right last time too. The Yes side was ahead until the last week. They seemed to have got it right this time too.

Paddyo

K-9 wrote: »

Not really, the Yes side side was about 15-20% ahead in all the opinion polls.

The only one that showed a No lead was one done by a group close to Coir. Interestingly it was within certain groups and areas. Groups that would tend towards a No anyway. If you did a poll on this board it would have probably showed a No too.

The opinion polls got it right last time too. The Yes side was ahead until the last week. They seemed to have got it right this time too.

bg07

If some one took a box then they would have to have replaced that box with a similar box with the right box number and paper work attached and the right number of votes in side it. Otherwise the returning officers figures wouldn’t add up correctly. The amount of people who knew the number of votes inside that box at that stage wouldn’t be much more than 5.

Perhaps another theory is that a no campaign supporter staged removing a ballot box from the building with a random cardboard box painted black and with a bit of paper stuck to the side. He also had his accomplice on standby to video the event with a very bad camera so the box number or his face couldn’t be seen.

samson09

Why the Lisbon Treaty must NOT be ratified.

Sign the petition @ http://www.gopetition.com/online/31224/sign.html

Under Irish law, ballot boxes are required to be delivered by members of the Gardai to the polling stations at 7:00 am on the date the election takes place.

This legal requirement applies to ALL polling in Ireland, whether elections or referendums.

On this occasion, however, the ballot boxes were delivered to the private residences of the polling/Returning Officers, 48 hours prior to the Referendum.

A number of honest Returning Officers formally objected to this BREACH OF PROCEDURE, and to the concomitant prospective breach of security, let alone of the electoral legislation.

We understand that such objections were officially dismissed out of hand on the spurious and diversionary grounds that the ballot boxes possessed no commercial value, so it would be in nobody’s commercial interest to steal them.

The central issue – that since the Irish ballot boxes were delivered 48 hours early they could be ‘stuffed’ with YES votes by returning officers, as routinely happens in places like the former Soviet Republic of Georgia – was of course not addressed.

The Irish voters were given pencils to make their mark on the ballot, even though all Irish electoral ballots are supposed to be filled with black pen.

Almost nobody was asked for any form of ID or information at the polling stations.

The ballot boxes were left unattended and moved about by many people without question.

At least one box in Cork was removed from the count centre by an unknown individual as shown in the attached video.

Many foreign nationals and others who were not legally entitled to vote voted in this Referendum. Irish Times article “Gardai to investigate suspected vote fraud”, shows seven voters registered to an empty house.

It follows that, given that the local electoral law was flouted, THE OUTCOME OF THE IRISH REFERENDUM IS FRAUDULENT AND MUST IMMEDIATELY BE DECLARED NULL AND VOID.

II.

1) The intervention of the European Commission, entailing massive expenditure of money to influence Irish opinion towards a Yes, the running of a web-site and the issuing of statements that sought to counter No-side arguments, and the advocacy of a Yes vote by Commission President Barroso and other Commissioners and their staffs during visits to Ireland. This is unlawful under European law, as the Commission has no function in relation to the ratification of new Treaties, something that is exclusively a matter for the Member States under their own constitutional procedures;

2) The part funding of the posters and press advertising of most of Ireland’s Yes-side political parties by their sister parties in the European Parliament, even though it is illegal under Irish law to receive donations from sources outside the country in a referendum and even though, under European law, money provided by the European Parliament to cross-national political parties is supposed to be confined to informational-type material and to avoid partisan advocacy;

3) The Irish Government’s unlawful use of public funds in circulating to voters a postcard with details of the so-called “assurances” of the European Council, followed by a brochure some time later containing a tendentious summary of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, as well as other material - steps that were in breach of the 1995 Irish Supreme Court judgment in McKenna that it is unconstitutional of the Government to use public funds to seek to obtain a particular result in a referendum;

4) The failure of the country’s statutory Referendum Commission to carry out its function under the Referendum Act that established it of explaining to citizens how the proposed constitutional amendment and its text would affect the Irish Constitution. Instead the Commission’s Chairman, Judge Frank Clarke, turned the Commission into an arm of Government propaganda, while the judge indulged himself in various “solo-runs” on radio and in the newspapers, giving several erroneous explanations of provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, even though this was quite beyond his powers under the Act;

5) Huge expenditure of money by private companies such as Intel and Ryanair to advocate a Yes vote, without any statutory limit, in possible breach of Irish company and tax law, and undoubtedly constituting a major democratic abuse.

6) Breaches by the Irish broadcast media of their obligation under the Broadcasting Acts to be fair to all interests concerned in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate. Newstalk 106, owned by Mr Denis O’Brien, a committed supporter of the Yes side, was quite shameless in its partisanship on its current affairs programmes.

---

humanji

Hmmm, you missed out the link to infowars with that cut and paste. Out of interest, if it had been a No vote, would you be calling for the result void?

major bill

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Evidently they did, seeing as how most people expected a No vote the first time. Why go through all the trouble of having to hold a second referendum when they could have rigged the first one in order to be sure that there was a Yes vote? If this was all a big plot by the Masons/NWO/EU, why leave things like this to chance?

cockyness first time round maybe dont think they would have thought the irish would have voted no!!!

parsi

In my twenty-odd years of voting using a pencil I've never been asked for ID. Possibly because there isn't any national ID card.

Does this make every vote invalid ? Or does it only make selected votes invalid ?

parsi

samson09 wrote: »

Under Irish law, ballot boxes are required to be delivered by members of the Gardai to the polling stations at 7:00 am on the date the election takes place.

Do you have a link to this ? I couldn't find it in the 1992 Electoral Act

schween

We should get Declan Ganley to follow this up. Maybe there could be a recount and the Yes vote will turn out higher with his luck:D

CR 7

There's a simple explanation for most of this, usually I.D. is not required because the polling station's are relatively local, and knowing someone is probably proof enough of their identity. Tipp Ex is as widely used as erasers, so maybe we should only vote by pencil. Also, 67% of the country's votes were in that box stolen in Cork.

Arion24

Doesn't matter if it was. Nothing the public can do about it and not enough want to actually do anything.

Tyrant^

Arion24 wrote: »

Doesn't matter if it was. Nothing the public can do about it and not enough want to actually do anything.

True... this is sad
It is the case with allot of things and not just in Ireland.
People just seem to be happy to work 40 hours a week and sit in the living room watching tv and going out the odd weekend to get sloshed ! While we let all the important events that will shape our lives... just fly way way over our heads.

This makes me rage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPzJGltnCxU

....

rigged

Tyrant^

.... wrote: »

rigged

This.

Even the fact that we were made vote on it again is just ridiculous.
You dont see people in the states voting twice on presidential elections.

Why vote at all ? If you can be made vote again... or heck maybe even a third or fourth time. Even though I think thats "illegal" but sure they will just rename the treaty and give it to someone else.

Fook sakes. Why did I have to look into the lisbon treaty my mind was at peace for awhile ...

....

Tyrant^ wrote: »

This.

Even the fact that we were made vote on it again is just ridiculous.
You dont see people in the states voting twice on presidential elections.

Why vote at all ? If you can be made vote again... or heck maybe even a third or fourth time. Even though I think thats "illegal" but sure they will just rename the treaty and give it to someone else.

Fook sakes. Why did I have to look into the lisbon treaty my mind was at peace for awhile ...

exactly, absolutely ridiculous

force eleven

Nah, one ballot box disappearing into the night, does not a rigging make....

Actually, I only know 2 people who voted yes, but there you go. People believed the magic beans formula, and thats that.

meglome

Arion24 wrote: »

Doesn't matter if it was. Nothing the public can do about it and not enough want to actually do anything.

Tyrant^ wrote: »

True... this is sad
It is the case with allot of things and not just in Ireland.
People just seem to be happy to work 40 hours a week and sit in the living room watching tv and going out the odd weekend to get sloshed ! While we let all the important events that will shape our lives... just fly way way over our heads.

This makes me rage

Imagine in a representative democracy the people deciding what they want, how dare they. Just so we're clear people who disagree with you are not idiots or fools. I read the Lisbon treaty and was very happy to vote Yes.

Tyrant^ wrote: »

Even the fact that we were made vote on it again is just ridiculous.

I don't seem to recall anyone being forced to do anything. Did someone call round to your house? Was someone stopping you from voting No again?

Tyrant^ wrote: »

You dont see people in the states voting twice on presidential elections.

I don't believe we've ever voted twice on a general election either.

Tyrant^ wrote: »

Why vote at all ? If you can be made vote again... or heck maybe even a third or fourth time. Even though I think thats "illegal" but sure they will just rename the treaty and give it to someone else.

Again I don't seem to remember anyone being made do anything. How is having more democratic votes a problem? The people decide, if they want to vote No again they will, if they have changed their minds with the guarantees and the extra time then they will vote Yes, just like they did - by a large majority.

Tyrant^ wrote: »

Fook sakes. Why did I have to look into the lisbon treaty my mind was at peace for awhile ...

So did you read it or listen to the bull the No campaign were peddling?


Now for the real conspiracy.

Scofflaw wrote: »

A minor point to add to the debate here - is the level of the No vote in the second referendum credible? I would say yes - here's the proportion of the electorate that votes No, for each EU referendum:

Treaty|Year|Electorate|No vote|No as % of electorate
Accession|1973|1,783,604|211,891| 11.88%
SEA|1987|2,461,790|324,977| 13.2%
Maastricht|1992|2,542,840|448,655| 17.64%
Amsterdam|1998|2,747,088|578,070| 21.04%
Nice 1|2001|2,867,960|529,478| 18.46%
Nice 2|2002|2,923,918|534,887| 18.29%
Lisbon 1|2008|3,051,278|862,415| 28.26%
Lisbon 2|2009|3,078,132|594,606| 19.32%

What's historically unusual is not the second vote, but the first - the No side picked up a soft No half the size of the usual No brigade. The second referendum, on the other hand, represents simply the usual position - with a No vote of c. 20% of the electorate, and the result dependent almost entirely on how motivated the Yes vote is.

Another interesting point from that, by the way, is that the core No vote doesn't appear to have changed that much over the last 20 years - the initial rise in opposition took place around the end of the Eighties.

In case of confusion, note that the % given is the No vote as a percentage of the total electorate - that is, of everyone who was entitled to vote in the referendum, whether they voted or not.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Why was the No vote for the Lisbon 1 so much higher than normal. It must have been fixed, only explanation.

Arion24

meglome wrote: »

Why was the No vote for the Lisbon 1 so much higher than normal. It must have been fixed, only explanation.

Given how the goverment wanted the Yes vote more than they'd want to save a pensioner from an oncoming bus, I highly doubt that the first election, the legal one, was rigged.
Cowan wishes it was rigged in his favour.

Imagine in a representative democracy the people deciding what they want, how dare they. Just so we're clear people who disagree with you are not idiots or fools. I read the Lisbon treaty and was very happy to vote Yes.

Remember when we went a second time to Nice Treaty and said Yes instead? The recession here happened.

No one is stupid for having their own opinions, just in the case of recent european related electiosn, a lot are weak willed for not daring to question what Ireland really is in the grand scheme of things.

Black Uhlan

meglome wrote: »

Imagine in a representative democracy the people deciding what they want, how dare they.

That is essentially the attitude that gave us the second vote.

meglome wrote: »

Just so we're clear people who disagree with you are not idiots or fools. I read the Lisbon treaty and was very happy to vote Yes.

Fair play to you.

meglome wrote: »

I don't seem to recall anyone being forced to do anything. Did someone call round to your house? Was someone stopping you from voting No again?

Eh to be represented we were forced to vote again.

meglome wrote: »

I don't believe we've ever voted twice on a general election either.

Try as recent as 82'.

meglome wrote: »

Again I don't seem to remember anyone being made do anything. How is having more democratic votes a problem? The people decide, if they want to vote No again they will, if they have changed their minds with the guarantees and the extra time then they will vote Yes, just like they did - by a large majority.

Whatever about anything else I find it hard to believe you can defend the almost immediate re-run so flippantly. Tunnel vision?

meglome wrote: »

So did you read it or listen to the bull the No campaign were peddling?

"Yes for Jobs"?


Now for the real conspiracy.

meglome wrote: »

Why was the No vote for the Lisbon 1 so much higher than normal. It must have been fixed, only explanation.

Double standards. You preach how it is democratic to have the same vote a year later to obtain the will of the people while assuming that the will of the people has already been established so as to to follow a defined pattern.

meglome

Black Uhlan wrote: »

That is essentially the attitude that gave us the second vote.

No the government chose to have another referendum as is their legal right, the same government we elected. So had the public's view changed from the first vote to the second?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Eh to be represented we were forced to vote again.

But how were you forced? You can vote any way you want or not at all, where's the problem?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Try as recent as 82'.

Indeed. This was a completely separate election which happened to be the same year as the previous one.

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Whatever about anything else I find it hard to believe you can defend the almost immediate re-run so flippantly. Tunnel vision?

I'm not defending anything. I'm simply saying if things had changed then people would vote differently, which they did - by a large majority. Simple fact.

Black Uhlan wrote: »

"Yes for Jobs"?

And did you assume this was a promise of immediate jobs or the immediate end of the recession?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Double standards. You preach how it is democratic to have the same vote a year later to obtain the will of the people while assuming that the will of the people has already been established so as to to follow a defined pattern.

Not at all. This thread is about the possibility the Lisbon 2 vote was rigged. But by showing the no votes over all the treaties it shows that the no vote in Lisbon 1 is outside the established norms. So if I use simple logic it's then way more likely that Lisbon 1 was rigged.