Ask and ye shall recieve

CheGuedara

Looks like someone somewhere in DCC has finally started to get a clue - a 30kph speed limit is coming to Dublin City Center.

Now Just to see it enforced.

LINK

NeilMcEoigheann

I feel some of us might get done for speeding...

trad

Been on O'Connell Street for quite a while

CheGuedara

NeilMcEoigheann wrote:

I feel some of us might get done for speeding...

Hmmm true. So this is how they (yes 'they', you know them, those lads) make the Bike to work money back... devious backsterds

Can a cyclist actually get speed gunned?

And if so, would you get pursued by the cycle cops then to get issued the ticket?* Would probably do the Garda cycling team a world of good, on the job race training if you will

*lets face it you'd probably get muscled off the bike/billy club in the spokes as you passed the squad car ...

blorg

I believe the speed limit only applies to mechanically propelled vehicles and NOT to bikes.

You could still of course be done for cycling dangerously.

ten speed racer

CheGuedara wrote: »

Looks like someone somewhere in DCC has finally started to get a clue - a 30kph speed limit is coming to Dublin City Center.

Now Just to see it enforced.

LINK

Cllr Andrew Montague, who is chair of the transport strategic policy committee, is a cyclist and wants to improve cycling facilities in Dublin.

flickerx

Good to see it - but seeing as how the quays have been the source of several deaths in recent years, it would be good (especially the south quays) to have the speed limit along there too, towards Heuston Station.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to get in touch with Andrew Montague.

Chips Lovell

NeilMcEoigheann wrote: »

I feel some of us might get done for speeding...

Speed limits don't apply to bikes.

Lumen

Down with this sort of thing.

Nietzschean

Lumen wrote: »

Down with this sort of thing.

which sort?

Lumen

Slowness

trad

blorg wrote: »

I believe the speed limit only applies to mechanically propelled vehicles and NOT to bikes.

You could still of course be done for cycling dangerously.

Unless you have discovered some new law of physics a pedal cycle is mechanically propelled. The propellant is human. Bikes have gears, chains, cranks etc.

Jawgap

Lumen wrote: »

Down with this sort of thing.

......careful now

flickerx

trad wrote: »

Unless you have discovered some new law of physics a pedal cycle is mechanically propelled. The propellant is human. Bikes have gears, chains, cranks etc.

Maybe humans should start paying road tax. I mean motor tax.

CheGuedara

ten speed racer wrote: »

Cllr Andrew Montague, who is chair of the transport strategic policy committee, is a cyclist and wants to improve cycling facilities in Dublin.

Right so, hope he keeps on going!

Agree about extending it further down the South Quays - running it as far as Heuston would have been good - can be a bit wild west-ish down there

CheGuedara

flickerx wrote: »

Maybe humans should start paying road tax. I mean motor tax.

....careful now

ednwireland

30kph, how are they going to get the traffic upto that speed in central dublin ???????????

isnt it something like 12mph at the moment ?

blorg

trad wrote: »

Unless you have discovered some new law of physics a pedal cycle is mechanically propelled. The propellant is human. Bikes have gears, chains, cranks etc.

Not according to the relevant definition in the statutes it's not- which is all that matters in legal terms. Mechanically propelled means "propelled by mechanical power" (e.g. an engine.)

Road Traffic Act, 1961 wrote:

"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;

Fun fact: the tomato, botanically a fruit, is classified as a vegetable in US law.

Jip

ten speed racer wrote: »

Cllr Andrew Montague, who is chair of the transport strategic policy committee, is a cyclist and wants to improve cycling facilities in Dublin.

And he's a poster on the commuting and transport forum, don't think I've seen him around here though.

tomasrojo

Councillor Montague posted on this form recently. Can't remember about what.

He was the chief proponent on the council for the Dublin Bike scheme, and he lead the opposition in the council to the mandatory helmet proposal of recent times.

He seems to be committed and well informed. He is a rare breed.

Doctor Bob

I think this was Cllr Montague's last post (bottom of the page): http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055698483

(Anyone else notice that the Search function has been disabled / isn't working?)

Re the OP- glad to see the area being extended but, like many others, sad it's not more extensive- quays from Heuston to Docklands, Pearse Street, etc. Many areas within the canals are already de facto low speed environments, but there are others that really need this. Perhaps another extension will happen in future (assuming the Dublin City Business Association doesn't get up on its ill-informed high horse about this one too :rolleyes: - Stop Press: there's a recession on, lads, and stuff is cheaper on the internet. It's not the fault of the bus gate!). Perhaps it should be default 30 km/h inside the canals, with specific exemptions only?

Looking at the map on the RTE website, it seems that the area has been defined (restricted?) by the Inner Orbital route in the city: http://www.dublincity.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/inner_orbital_route.pdf

Why can't the Inner Orbital be 30km/h too?

As noted by others, traffic often moves far slower than 30 km/h during the day. Where I see this making a difference is at night-time, when it's a taxi free-for-all in much of the city, especially on the quays. I was cycling home from a party a few weeks ago around 3 am and it was one of the most frightening cycling experiences I've ever had- way too many taxis, their eyes glued only to the footpath for any half-sign of a potential fare, horrendous lane changing and u-turning, not to mention drag racing across three lanes along the north quays.

As mentioned, enforcement will be key. Any guesses at the likelihood of enforcement at 3 am on a rainy November saturday night?

Anyway, gripes aside, a broad thumbs up from me.

Bunnyhopper

Doctor Bob wrote: »

(assuming the Dublin City Business Association doesn't get up on its ill-informed high horse about this one too :rolleyes: - Stop Press: there's a recession on, lads, and stuff is cheaper on the internet. It's not the fault of the bus gate!).

On that point I thought this was interesting:

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2007/11/cyclists-are-better-shoppers-than.html

blorg

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

On that point I thought this was interesting:

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2007/11/cyclists-are-better-shoppers-than.html

Interesting article and I'm not at all surprised that pedestrianising increases shopping, the last stat is very misleading though and would only make sense for comparison if car parking space was a retailer's most significant cost which I imagine it is far from. The final stat makes clear to me that in that case car drivers spent more than cyclists.

tomasrojo

I see what you mean, blorg: since a car takes up far more parking space than a bike, it does look as if the individual motorist is buying more than the cyclist.

I find that site is a bit prone to yah-boo and rather pat argumentation, especially in the comments from the proprietor. But some really good stuff there at times, such as the recent five-parter on cycling and the Culture of Fear.

joshor123

heard of a man before getting done for its my friends friend....not sure how much

monument

'Cycling in the Netherlands' [PDF] is a document created by the Dutch government.

Turn to page 20 for cycling a shopping, including a case study and stats.

The 'Background' text notes that:

"Even in the Netherlands, [my highlighting] there are some misconceptions: cyclists don’t contribute much to the till, so accessibility by car is very important for shopkeepers. However, this is not the case. Cyclists spend less per visit, but they do come more often. Naturally this varies per city centre, but both older research in Utrecht and newer studies in Breda (where on average a cyclist spends one and a half times as much as a motorist) and Groningen have demonstrated this. Groningen’s
statistics speak for themselves. (Table 5)"

"Table 5 shows the profit that the Groningen city centre receives per individual mode of transport. In total, considering all visitors and the complete turnover, the bicycle is of major economic interest as well: 31% of visitors and 34% of the turnover. This obviously concerns mainly Groningen citizens: 46% of Groningen citizens cycle to the city centre, realising 56% of sales to citizens. Visitors from the region and further afield in the Netherlands have a slight preference for public transport instead of their cars, but visitors who come by car spend far larger amounts."

And could this apply to Dublin?...

"In addition there is an interesting paradox which appears to address commerce in particular: The more local shoppers who switch from the car to the bicycle, the less parking space is available for (the cars of) shoppers from further afield. It is precisely for this reason that the Hoofdbedrijfschap
Detailhandel’ (trades council) suggested in 2004 that retailers might do well to take their own supplementary initiatives: ‘Consider creating bicycle sheds in private premises in a shopping centre or town centre.’ Because, this organisation of retailers also reasoned: more cyclists from the
city itself means that more scarce parking spaces are freed up for the cars of regional visitors."

chakattack

NeilMcEoigheann wrote: »

I feel some of us might get done for speeding...

My thoughts exactly....

BostonB

Yet more rules not to enforce.

AMontague

BostonB wrote: »

Yet more rules not to enforce.

The rules will largely be enforced by the sequencing of the traffic lights. Motorists that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will get a flow of green traffic lights. Those motorists that race from one traffic light to the next will by penalised by having to stop at every light.

The purpose of this initiative is to create a safer, friendlier environment for pedestrians and cyclists. There has been a 60% increase in the numbers cycling in the last four years and we want to build on that. But there are many potential cyclists put off because they feel it is too dangerous to cycle in the city centre. This will encourage more people to cycle - perhaps by starting off with the Dublin Bikes before going on to buy their own bike.

Lumen

AMontague wrote: »

The rules will largely be enforced by the sequencing of the traffic lights. Motorists that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will get a flow of green traffic lights. Those motorists that race from one traffic light to the next will by penalised by having to stop at every light

That sounds like a challenge to me.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

That sounds like a challenge to me.

I was just thinking that. Should be able to get up to 30km/h and stay there on a bike, at least for the length of the restricted zone. Everyone's a winner.

Lumen

AMontague wrote: »

The rules will largely be enforced by the sequencing of the traffic lights. Motorists that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will get a flow of green traffic lights. Those motorists that race from one traffic light to the next will by penalised by having to stop at every light.

The purpose of this initiative is to create a safer, friendlier environment for pedestrians and cyclists. There has been a 60% increase in the numbers cycling in the last four years and we want to build on that. But there are many potential cyclists put off because they feel it is too dangerous to cycle in the city centre. This will encourage more people to cycle - perhaps by starting off with the Dublin Bikes before going on to buy their own bike.

Andrew,

For what it's worth, I think these limits are a stupid idea.

On a personal level, not only will I have to contend with crawling through town on empty steets on the occasions when I choose to use a car for late night transport, but when on my bike I'll have to choose between restricting my speed to 30kph or filtering at high speed between lanes of irate drivers.

Speed is not unsafe, inappropriate speed is unsafe, and only a skilled driver can decide which speed is appropriate for his vehicle in the prevailing conditions.

Imposing such a ridiculously low limit (19mph!) will reduce driving attention, and I'd guess that drivers are more likely to switch off and start phoning, texting etc to alleviate the boredom, thus increasing risks to other road users.

Good luck dragging Dublin back to the early twentieth century. What's next, men with red flags?

Cyclists who can't deal with a bit of free-flowing traffic (e.g. along the south quays) should either learn to cycle properly or take a quieter route. Pandering to the inept is not a progressive transport strategy.

Down with this sort of thing.

tomasrojo

With all respect to Lumen, I think it's, potentially at least, a great idea.

It's quite a small zone, and it's a zone with a lot of pedestrians, shoppers, cyclists. Given how much contention there is for space there, it seems like a sensible limit, and gives people more time to react to unpredictable conditions.

30km/h is a decent enough pace; you'd be in and out of the restricted zone in a few minutes anyway, if you match the light sequence that Andrew is talking about. (Also, 30km/h doesn't get smaller when you express it in mph!)

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

With all respect to Lumen

Respect not required.

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's quite a small zone, and it's a zone with a lot of pedestrians, shoppers, cyclists. Given how much contention there is for space there, it seems like a sensible limit, and gives people more time to react to unpredictable conditions.

Speed limits are not targets. In a contended space drivers should be going slower, not because of an arbitrary limit, but in order to avoid killing people.

tomasrojo wrote: »

30km/h is a decent enough pace

No it isn't. It's a pitifully slow pace, slower than some people can run.

As has been shown in the UK, once the precedent is set these zones tend to profilerate like chlamydia at a swingers convention.

DBCyc

tomasrojo wrote: »

With all respect to Lumen, I think it's, potentially at least, a great idea.

+1

If cars are travelling slower around the city it will become more attractive to cycle there and more people should then take up cycling. I don't know why you would need to drive a car any faster than 30kph in the proposed zone at any time.

Well done Andrew, keep up the good work!

Lumen

DBCyc wrote: »

I don't know why you would need to drive a car any faster than 30kph in the proposed zone at any time.

Because I am not immortal, I generally prefer to get to my destination as fast as safely possible, regardless of the mode of transport.

DBCyc

Lumen wrote: »

Speed limits are not targets. In a contended space drivers should be going slower, not because of an arbitrary limit, but in order to avoid killing people.

I agree but I don't think that the average motorist in Ireland thinks like this. Some seem to think that it is acceptable and safe to drive over 60kph down the south quays. I presume that is why limits and enforcement are introduced. Maybe improved driver training & education would be more effective but I cant see that happening here any time soon

Lumen

DBCyc wrote: »

I agree but I don't think that the average motorist in Ireland thinks like this. Some seem to think that it is acceptable and safe to drive over 60kph down the south quays. I presume that is why limits and enforcement are introduced.

50kph is a perfectly adequate limit for built up areas, if properly enforced. In many circumstances (e.g. around College Green) 30kph is too fast. How about a 10kph limit?

DBCyc wrote: »

Maybe improved driver training & education would be more effective but I cant see that happening here any time soon

If you can't be bothered to implement a good idea, pick a bad one instead?

Chips Lovell

AMontague wrote: »

The rules will largely be enforced by the sequencing of the traffic lights. Motorists that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will get a flow of green traffic lights. Those motorists that race from one traffic light to the next will by penalised by having to stop at every light.

Hi Andrew,
Is there any research to back this up? Because my experience (and I realise that anecdotal evidence can be unreliable) is that a lot of motorists are actually quite irrational when it comes to traffic flow. I've witnessed countless instances of people who will pull off dangerous overtaking manouveres to reach a red light 20 metres down the street, for example.

BostonB

AMontague wrote: »

The rules will largely be enforced by the sequencing of the traffic lights. Motorists that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will get a flow of green traffic lights. Those motorists that race from one traffic light to the next will by penalised by having to stop at every light....

If that worked, why doesn't it work with the current speed limits.

DBCyc

Lumen wrote: »

50kph is a perfectly adequate limit for built up areas, if properly enforced.

Maybe it is but in the very centre of a town/city the prioirty should be for pedestrians & cyclists and restricting the speed and routing of vehilces improves the environment for people (that are not in cars!)

Lumen wrote: »

If you can't be bothered to implement a good idea, pick a bad one instead?

No way, they should definitely focus on improved driver training & education but 30kph limits will come first

ROK ON

My tuppence worth.

The main dangers in the city centre as a cyclists are (as I see it)
(1) Being squashed by lorries/buses,
(2) Being hit by jaywalkers,
(3) Being in any type of tip/contact with a vehicle.

I am no sure that the speed issue comes up a whole lot in the city centre.
As a user of the South quays most weekdays, I fail to see where the of vehicles becomes objectionable. The fasted people on the south quays tend to be (IMHO) cyclists weaving like crazy thru the traffic.

The issue I have is conjestion. I would be in favour of a conjestion charge and a removal of all truck traffic (no exceptions between 7 an and pm).
I think this would IMO make cycling a more pleasant experience.

blorg

@Lumen- accidents happen and in the event of a collision your chances of being killed are far lower at 30km/h. 30km/h limits for central urban areas make a lot of sense. Bottom line it reduces accident casualties and there is no good reason not to do it.

For example:

The evidence of increased pedestrian safety at 20 mph is strong. The chance of a pedestrian being seriously injured or killed if struck by a car is 45% if the car is travelling at 30 mph but only 5% at 20 mph. Government research showed that 20 mph zones reduced the incidence of traffic accidents by 60% and cut child pedestrian and child cyclist accidents by 67%, while overall vehicle speeds fell by an average 9.3 mph (14.9 kph). There was no evidence that accidents increased on surrounding roads. Research by local councils produces similar results. For example, Havant Borough Council has imposed a 20 mph limit on 20 miles of road and has seen traffic accident casualties drop by a significant 40%.

- Reducing the speed limit to 20 mph in urban areas, Paul Pilkington, BMJ. 2000 April 29

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

No it isn't. It's a pitifully slow pace, slower than some people can run.

Well, sprinters manage about 40km/h, but that's over 100m.

DirkVoodoo

It will be a nice idea as long as it is enforced.

The road outside where I am now is one of the worst parts of my commute. It's a 50 km/hr zone on pretty crap roads. It's rarely enforced, we get an annual "token" speed camera day and have those "your speed is...." LED signs which always seem to be flashing red.

A lot of it seems to be old guys driving Bentleys and soccer mom's driving Cayennes and other high powered SUVs, along with traffic using it as a shortcut to the M50.

Speed limits mean nothing unless the Gardai can get out and enforce them.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

accidents happen and in the event of a collision your chances of being killed are far lower at 30km/h. Bottom line it reduces accident casualties

Accidents don't happen - they are caused, usually by inattention. I have seen no credible evidence that speed limits reduce casualties, and this runs contrary to my experience of hundreds of thousands of miles of driving and a few crashes of my own.

blorg wrote: »

there is no good reason not to do it.

You would say that, you don't own a car.

Gavin

On a realistic level, how much time is it going to add to the average journey through the city center? A small percentage I would imagine given the short distances and already slow traffic speeds.

Having said that, I don't think it's going to make any difference to safety, real or perceived.

tomasrojo

The traffic speeds are only slow when traffic is heavy. In the late evening and at night, speeds can be quite high, and on the quays very high occasionally. The area of the quays from the Custom House to Church Street will be in the new restricted zone, both north and south quays.

If top speeds can be kept down to 30km/h, these sections would become less intimidating. They certainly are black spots for cyclists as things currently stand, particulary the south quays, in that a disproportionate number of cyclists have been killed there.

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

If top speeds can be kept down to 30km/h, these sections would become less intimidating. They certainly are black spots for cyclists as things currently stand, particulary the south quays, in that a disproportionate number of cyclists have been killed there.

Lots of cyclists (myself included) regularly use rural roads where the speed limit is 80 or 100kph, there are various combinations of bad road surfaces, narrow lanes, poor lighting and heavy traffic.

Last time I checked I wasn't dead.

People who find city centre cycling intimidating are just inept.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

People who find city centre cycling intimidating are just inept.

Probably a bit harsh. Ireland has a very lively Culture of Fear, and a lot of it is directed at cycling (has anyone heard Acquired Brain Injury Ireland do a press interview that isn't to do with cycling, for example?). Juggernauts travelling at speed near to you are intimidating to novices and the timid. And, as I said before, 30km/h isn't that slow, especially over such a small distance.

Also, (I'm genuinely interested) what runners had you in mind that exceed 30km/h over a few km?

Poncherello

Lumen wrote: »

Last time I checked I wasn't dead.

People who find city centre cycling intimidating are just inept.

Excuse me ?

:mad: