Brian Lenihan - We never said we'd have a strong economy and loads of jobs [YES vote]

Tir

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??

Brian Lenihan on Vincent Browne show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCxoL0gjtFY


Also, you might want to watch this one if you haven't seen it already.. the crooks win again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

Long Onion

Here we go again methinks ...

thebman

:P
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1005/breaking47.htm

http://www.generationyes.ie/2009/09/21/lisbon-greening-the-irish-jobs-market/

And Lisbon isn't actually in force yet.

hatrickpatrick

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

free-man

Disgraceful.

The man has no shame, even lying about lying :eek:

free-man

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

meditraitor

Tir wrote: »

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

The recovery wil happen,

You heard it here first folks, just lets hope we get shot of FF and the Yellows first

opinion guy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

Are you kidding me ? as usual by the time the next election roles around all will be forgotten.....better the devil you know....and all that and we'll be doubly screwed.

on the plus side - havne't u heard - house prices are up 4% - yes thats unsustainable but its great for nama. the great gamble will pay off and nama will make them a fortune and we'll be stuck with these clowns for even longer

Long Onion

Tir wrote: »

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??

Brian Lenihan on Vincent Browne show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCxoL0gjtFY


Also, you might want to watch this one if you haven't seen it already.. the crooks win again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

Change the record please. The fact is that many of our largest employers believed that a No vote would be harmful to employment in the future as we are viewed as a stepping stone to the EU market.

Was this misrepresented and spun by a number of Yes side supporters - undoubtedly so. Did the informed believe it - I doubt it.

The only people who fell for this were those who failed to exercise any idependant thought and chose not to research issues for themselves but instead to base their choice on a poster campaign.

The No side did the same with ill-informed posters on a number of issues. I was under no impression that a yes vote would create jobs, but I do think that it will benefit our economy and citizens in the long run.

It is only a conspiracy if you are lazy or poorly informed.

free-man

Interesting quotes from that IT article:

However, it added that while the Yes vote was "rating supportive," the negative outlook remains with Moody's expecting a further deterioration of Ireland's debt affordability.

Although the Yes vote is supportive for Ireland’s creditworthiness, the outlook on Ireland's Aa1 long-term government bond ratings remains negative, reflecting the risk of a further, gradual deterioration in its debt affordability,"

"Ireland’s ability to reverse negative debt dynamics in a low growth environment will be tested.”

Sounds like a great environment for FDI, and job creation.

hobochris

free-man wrote: »

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

The Irish people endorsed the Lisbon treaty not the ff/yellows(:D) government.

It would be very silly of the government to mistake a yes on Lisbon to approval of the government.Only a fool would think otherwise.

time will tell what happens as a result of a yes vote, but approval of Lisbon != approval of government.

Sam Vimes

free-man wrote: »

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

It's truly mind boggling that you're so absolutely sure that a yes vote will keep the government in power until 2012 while being equally sure that it won't bring a single cent into the country that wouldn't otherwise have come. can you point to the article that says a yes vote saves Fianna Fail please?

free-man wrote: »

Interesting quotes from that IT article:

However, it added that while the Yes vote was "rating supportive," the negative outlook remains with Moody's expecting a further deterioration of Ireland's debt affordability.

Although the Yes vote is supportive for Ireland’s creditworthiness, the outlook on Ireland's Aa1 long-term government bond ratings remains negative, reflecting the risk of a further, gradual deterioration in its debt affordability,"

"Ireland’s ability to reverse negative debt dynamics in a low growth environment will be tested.”

Sounds like a great environment for FDI, and job creation.

Yes the article says that, while the yes vote helped, it's not the solution to all of our problems. It's only people on the no side who ever suggested that Lisbon must mean either total economic recovery or nothing

Tir

thebman wrote: »

:P
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1005/breaking47.htm

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

hobochris

Tir wrote: »

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

Viva la firesale!

Rb

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

hobochris

Rb wrote: »

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

Em.. WTF?

bugler

The thing that made me so sick of Lisbon was how hysterical it had become. Once either side was going to stray from the truth both were. And of course, truth is a subjective concept in politics.

The electorate is sadly not sophisticated enough to weigh up these matters on their actual details. How many people voted based on what the treaty actually meant? Few. Most votes were based on loose, general concepts or fears. People weren't stirred by the promise of the Citizens Initiative, or the increased transparency of the Council of Ministers meetings. You'd do well to find many who would have a clue of what you were talking about if you asked them about these topics. The electorate were motivated by a fear of being left behind, or a fear of being taken over. The nuances were lost on them.

As such, there was no point in either side being nuanced in their campaigns. The Yes side couldn't hope to respond to fears over the minimum wage being cut with rational dialogue, so they stuck the words "Jobs", "Investments", and "Recovery" up on their posters instead. In the same way "Independence" and "Race To The Bottom" tended to feature on the No side. There really isn't enough room on a poster for an intelligent riposte to the fears of either side, so instead we have catchphrase campaigning. I thought Labour's literature was generally more moderate (or vague, depending on your viewpoint) on the issue of 'Yes' meaning jobs or recovery. I could be wrong on that though.

The type of political culture we have doesn't lend itself to reasoned debate or even proper information. People don't want to take your leaflets in the street, so they certainly don't want to listen to you harping on about what they see as political small print.

As ever, it is a chicken and egg scenario. Have the Irish people got the political system they deserve, or are we simply the victims of it?

Anyway, politicans make unreasonable claims, promises and lie outright in every campaign...why should this be any different? And are you going to revisit the No campaigners with similar vigour when abortion, euthanasia and a €1.84 minimum wage fail to materialise?

Tir

Rb wrote: »

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

.. Please take the time to read your post again before coming out with such nonsense!

Remember the good old days when we had the confidence, fair judgement and intelligence to rule ourselves in an Irish Ireland - what an outrageous concept!?

I don't have the Irish inferiority complex that afflicts your kind, sorry.

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

A government is only as bad as the people it administers; the referendum belied the substance from which modern Irish people are now made. They are not of the same stuff as their fathers, and what Ireland is known for.

Handsome Bob

hobochris wrote: »

Em.. WTF?

Self-styled intellectual snobbery I believe.

hobochris

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Self-styled intellectual snobbery I believe.

I was wondering..

thebman

Tir wrote: »

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

Its a sign that convidence is increasing that less companies will go under. If a company doesn't go under, they will still be employing people and are getting business.

Consumer convidence is also increasing and as they start spending more or investing more, jobs will follow as companies start to have more demand than they have had recently and are making more profits.

Rb

Tir wrote: »

.. Please take the time to read your post again before coming out with such nonsense!

Oh dear, it seems to have gone straight over your head. Particularly when you go on to follow it up with:

Tir wrote:

Remember the good old days when we had the confidence, fair judgement and intelligence to rule ourselves in an Irish Ireland - what an outrageous concept!?

I don't have the Irish inferiority complex that afflicts your kind, sorry.

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

What?

Tir wrote:

A government is only as bad as the people it administers; the referendum belied the substance from which modern Irish people are now made. They are not of the same stuff as their fathers, and what Ireland is known for.

So let's go back in time, am I right?

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Irelands history isn't as glamorous as you might like to think.

turgon

Tir wrote: »

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

And what exactly is that?

hobochris

Consumer confidence is a great thing but given our current situation(where many consumers have previously relied on credit and have very little in un-borrowed cash), It appears that credit may be needed to unfreeze business trading, which Im guessing is the purpose of Nama(something im not a fan of), the problem with this though is while the government can lead the banks to water(free up their books), they cant make them drink(start lending again).

seamus

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?

If anyone had half a brain, it's clear that the posters were saying, "A Yes vote will improve our chances of economic recovery, thereby holding onto the jobs we already have and bringing job growth back to normal levels".

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

Tir, Ireland was an economic basket case back in 1973, a complete shambles. Proof that the DeValera view of a traditional Ireland which was enforced by the post-independence governments couldn't supply a quality of life comparable with the rest of Europe.

Sam Vimes

hobochris wrote: »

Consumer confidence is a great thing but given our current situation, It appears that credit may be needed to unfreeze business trading, which Im guessing is the purpose of Nama(something im not a fan of), the problem with this though is while the government can lead the banks to water(free up their books), they cant make them drink(start lending again).

That's exactly the purpose of NAMA. It's not very pleasant but its necessary or businesses will continue to collapse because of lack of credit. The banks are supposed to lend it all out instead of hoarding it for themselves but I don't know how good the government will be at ensuring that because they're not much good at anything

hobochris

seamus wrote: »

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?

If anyone had half a brain, it's clear that the posters were saying, "A Yes vote will improve our chances of economic recovery, thereby holding onto the jobs we already have and bringing job growth back to normal levels".

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

Tir, Ireland was an economic basket case back in 1973, a complete shambles. Proof that the DeValera view of a traditional Ireland which was enforced by the post-independence governments couldn't supply a quality of life comparable with the rest of Europe.

unfortunately we have no shortage of idiots in Ireland. To many on both sides voting for the wrong reasons.

We are now in the aftermath of Said DeValera view, which in turn hinders any progress,reform or recovery.

as for the likes of the coir posters,with the 1.84 minimum wage, they made it out as if its a bad thing, Id love to live in an Irish society where 1.84 was an acceptable hourly minimum wage that could be easily lived of. It would make us more competitive in the international market.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's exactly the purpose of NAMA. It's not very pleasant but its necessary or businesses will continue to collapse because of lack of credit. The banks are supposed to lend it all out instead of hoarding it for themselves but I don't know how good the government will be at ensuring that because they're not much good at anything

My concerns exactly.

Rb

seamus wrote: »

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?
...
If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.
.

It's unfortunate that so many people thought that this is what the main parties were trying to imply by the slogans and consequently tried to push a No vote, for months, based on this misunderstanding.

Tir

seamus wrote: »

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

You have just upset half of the country.

seamus

Tir wrote: »

You have just upset half of the country.

And you've just insulted half. Odd that someone so patriotic would think so little of his countrymen.

Rb

Sorry Tir, you missed Turgon's question.

turgon wrote:

Tir wrote:

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

And what exactly is that?

Duiske

bugler wrote: »

Anyway, politicans make unreasonable claims, promises and lie outright in every campaign...why should this be any different? And are you going to revisit the No campaigners with similar vigour when abortion, euthanasia and a €1.84 minimum wage fail to materialise?

The No campaigners who made the outrageous claims on the issues you mention above are now of no consequence, they don't matter. What does matter is that we have a Minister for Finance who thinks it is perfectly acceptable to lie to the electorate.
Ireland is in massive financial trouble. I'd like to think that the person tasked with getting us out of this mess was trustworthy. Is that to much to ask ?

Tir

seamus wrote: »

And you've just insulted half. Odd that someone so patriotic would think so little of his countrymen.

The "other half" must learn to formulate a course of action based on both reason and spirit, the visible and invisible; and by doing this they will realise that talking in whatever capacity is not the equivalent of action; but that words are preliminary to it.

I respect my equals and my betters, this is enough.

Sam Vimes

Duiske wrote: »

The No campaigners who made the outrageous claims on the issues you mention above are now of no consequence, they don't matter. What does matter is that we have a Minister for Finance who thinks it is perfectly acceptable to lie to the electorate.
Ireland is in massive financial trouble. I'd like to think that the person tasked with getting us out of this mess was trustworthy. Is that to much to ask ?

Look, "yes to jobs" never meant "100,000 jobs for Monday", that is and always was an extremely over simplified interpretation meant to make a reasonable economic prediction based on experience and sound advice sound like a lie. I know what he meant because if he meant what the people on the no side claim he would be retarded. Not only would he be retarded but anyone who believed him would also be retarded. Using my knowledge that Brian Lenihan is unlikely to be retarded or at the very least, someone in either FF or FG would realise that the people are not retarded, I took a more reasonable interpretation of the slogans: that a yes vote, while not being the answer to all of our problems, would help our situation a lot more than a no vote.

View

Tir wrote: »

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO.

If by "sovereign" you mean it in the "virginity" sense (where you either are or you aren't), then a No vote would have made d*^n all difference. We made the decision to pool/give up (depending on your political view) some of our sovereignity in 1972, so you are complaining about the wrong referendum.

vinylbomb

Tir wrote: »

Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

All this crap is a mix between Free-Stater rubbish, except this time the "yoke of oppression" is the EU, and not the Queen - and the anarchist manifesto that is camouflaged as anti-capitalism that comes from the G8 protesters.

Neither are meritorious, and this thread is following the same pre-Lisbon treaty pattern of other threads.

Ridiculous claims, countered by sourced facts, and answered with more ridiculous claims.

Tir, judging by your zealotry, I would say that you don't see too many of your fellow Irish as deserving the title of "your equal", and therefore your respect, which is saddening to say the least.

Duiske

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Look, "yes to jobs" never meant "100,000 jobs for Monday", .

And I fully understand that. I don't think anyone in their right mind believed otherwise. I voted Yes because I believe that we are better off in the game than watching from the sidelines.

Anyway, my comment was aimed at bugler, who said "politicans make unreasonable claims, promises and lie outright in every campaign...why should this be any different?" And I stand by what I said. I'd rather not have untrustworthy liars in control of this countrys future.

Wheely

Tir wrote: »

You have just upset half of the country.

I voted yes and didn't think that that would happen.

Hydrosylator

thebman wrote: »

:P
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1005/breaking47.htm

http://www.generationyes.ie/2009/09/21/lisbon-greening-the-irish-jobs-market/

And Lisbon isn't actually in force yet.

That's lovely but it doesn't actually mean anything. If you think it does mean something, have a look at this graph and you can see that things have been slowly improving on the market, which I must stress is not an indicator of employment or quality of life, since march.

Then change it to a 5 year view, and that should put things in context.

Hydrosylator

Rb wrote: »

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Irelands history isn't as glamorous as you might like to think.

Right, so Spain, Italy and Germany have glamorous histories now do they?

Edit***
I'm not saying this an argument against them now, rather that bringing history into the argument doesn't improve anything.

turgon

Sorry Tir, you missed one of my posts. Here it is, so it will be really easy for you to answer:

Tir wrote: »

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

And what exactly is that?

vinylbomb

turgon wrote: »

And what exactly is that?

Good luck getting an answer, he's probably on another thread making the same noise by now.

roosh

Erra, at least we can look forward to a Gold at the next Olympics in the 100m Backpeddling Freestyle

granite man

One thing I don't quite get, business' are apparently complaining about the 'lack of credit', ie they need a lend of money to keep going, well, the industry I work in (and I own my own company) is suffering, not due to lack of credit, but the fact that people are NOT spending money. Therefore, jobs are being lost, not created. What is the point in borrowing just to stay afloat and increasing debt when there is no business to be had. Has no one learnt anything from the credit bubble bursting? It's just not viable to survive on borrowed cash no matter what way you choose to dress it up.

truthisfree

2430 jobs lost in the 5 days since the referendum, the biggest single lie of the whole debate, vote yes for jobs, vote yes for recovery.

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

2430 jobs lost in the 5 days since the referendum, the biggest single lie of the whole debate, vote yes for jobs, vote yes for recovery.

So, a Yes to Lisbon would have saved the jobs in Aer Lingus how exactly?

RandomName2

K-9 wrote: »

So, a Yes to Lisbon would have saved the jobs in Aer Lingus how exactly?

Because multinationals like AerLingus are rolling in money and just interested in how pro-European Ireland is. Moreover, the EU will bail out any company like AerLingus in the unlikely event of it getting into fiscal distress.

As IBEC said 'our future begins with a yes to Lisbon'

What a great future lads!

Legalise gay marriage.

Why?

The jobs, of course!

Repeal the divorce law.

Why?

Economic recovery!

Grant legal competencies to the EU.

Why?

This is an obvious route to Irish employment that only loolahs would deny!

Oh, of course, we might have been thrown out of the EU for voting no. But -thank god- that 'possibility' was avoided.

.!.

truthisfree wrote: »

2430 jobs lost in the 5 days since the referendum, the biggest single lie of the whole debate, vote yes for jobs, vote yes for recovery.

Don't confuse propaganda with reality.

What did people expect the Yes camp to say? Anymore than the No camp?

More interesting will be the EU paying for all those ad's in the Sunday papers

roosh

K-9 wrote: »

So, a Yes to Lisbon would have saved the jobs in Aer Lingus how exactly?

perhaps they may have fallen under the category of "Jobs" that a yes was in favour of?

just a possible suggestion

.!.

mangaroosh wrote: »

perhaps they may have fallen under the category of "Jobs" that a yes was in favour of?

just a possible suggestion

As a fellow No voter do you really expect all expectations to come to fruition in the following days?

Seriously.

RandomName2

Rb wrote: »

It's unfortunate that so many people thought that this is what the main parties were trying to imply by the slogans and consequently tried to push a No vote, for months, based on this misunderstanding.

From people that I spoke to who voted yes there were about four main feelings:

One: We can't afford the possibility of being forced out of the EU, that this risk was implied by our politicians, and that though probably a small risk, was certainly not worth taking for ambiguous reasons.

Two: EU membership = money. Slightly different from One insofar that there was the general consensus that the EU actually hasn't done anything bad to us, yet.

Three: We are a weak, isolated backwater, and cannot afford to distance powerful political forces in Europe. A nice return to 19th century realpolitik.

Four: The EU is too powerful to fight and we now have the opportunity at a compromise in the form of the guarantees.

Generally all of the above excluded the 'Treaty of Lisbon' as the actual driving motive behind their rationale to vote yes; but then again, they seemed to take the perspective that there were larger issues at play that the legal document that we were voting on (as our political parties repeatedly stated -ad nauseum). I still think that these 'bigger issues' were chimeras.