The importance of the Scrum in the modern game

stephen_n

Was reading Frano's piece in the tribune yesterday about Leinsters hopes or lack of them in this years HC in which he questioned Mike Ross's abilities as a front row in the tight and was making the argument of how important srummaging is and how much of a liability it is to have a poor prop in the tight. Following on from that reading various threads on here including the one about a replacement for Hayes I had a look for match statistics for Saturdays game and couldn't find them but got the stats for the HC semi last year in which there were a total of 12 scrums during the game and a total of 36 lineouts with 185 rucks. Purely on statistics scrums form a very very small part of the game these days and I accept that they still have a roll and you want your props to be good in the tight but I fail to se it as being the be all and end all of a props game these days.

So what do you think?

RuggieBear

lions first test.

England-Australia RWC final 2005

Both matches scrums and more importantly the penalties conceded at them were absolutely critical.

stephen_n

RuggieBear wrote: »

lions first test.

England-Australia RWC final 2005

Both matches scrums and more importantly the penalties conceded at them were absolutely critical.

Admittedly there are games when yes it does have an impact, but how often do they occur like that and taking into account that the Lions front row would not have been preceived as a weak unit it can some times be hard to legislate for. How many caps has Hayes had now as a supposedly bad scrummaging prop, I would be of the opinion that the rest of his game far makes up for anything in the tight!

OldJay

stephen_n wrote: »

So what do you think?

About Franno's stating of the obvious?
I'd only get banned lol

ScrubsfanChris

RuggieBear wrote: »

England-Australia RWC final 2005

Must have missed that game

RuggieBear

quiet you!

2003

musky

Props who can scrummage are worth their weight in diamonds.

They tend to be the most valuable players on a team, its that specialised a position, and those who can play both sides are.....well pretty damn rare.

Their jobs are to anchor the scrum, lift in the line out and guard/ clear out at the rucks, if they contribute in the loose its a bonus, the back row is there for the scoring backs support.

Did u ever see the farce that is rugby league, their scums make me want to puke. (not anti super league but its so damn repeditive)

The day of the prop who can only scummage and not get around the park is well and truly in its last days. Unfortunately there seems to be more of a focus on loose play rather than the basics.

Its refreshing to see though that in ireland we have a few young props who can perform exceptionally well in both loose and tight, from what I have seen they are:

Cian Healy
Paddy McAllister
Jack McGrath

They're are probably others but I only have seen these ones personally as being outstanding.

I dont have a clue why Ross is playing more but from what I have heard he is a bit of a sullen individual, perhaps he's just a deep thinker and misses quins?

DonkeyPokerTour

stephen_n wrote: »

I had a look for match statistics for Saturdays game and couldn't find them but got the stats for the HC semi last year in which there were a total of 12 scrums during the game and a total of 36 lineouts with 185 rucks. Purely on statistics scrums form a very very small part of the game these days and I accept that they still have a roll and you want your props to be good in the tight but I fail to se it as being the be all and end all of a props game these days.

Although this is true, if you were to look at all the line outs and all the scrums in most matches the percentage of time a penelty is given for a Line out would be very low, and usually its for tackling that man in the air, rather than any other infringement. On the other hands I'd say that in some matches its close to 50% of the time a free kick or penelty is given from a scrum.

Its easy to see how important good scrumagers are, look at the Osprey's Edinbrough game, I'm struggling to remenber a scrum that there was not a free kick or penelty given. Also it showed badly that the Osprey's missed Adam Jones, there scrum was solid enough last season, was very poor without A Jones in the front row. Another example was Cian Healy and Stan Wright's demolition Job of the Osprey's front row in the Leinster Osprey's match.

Also you say there were only 12 scrums in the leinster munster semi final, but if Leinster or Munster perceived the other as a week scrumaging team would they not call for a scrum if they got a 5 meter penelty, like Leinster did repeatedly vs the Osprey's?

Regards
Ian

Depp

musky wrote: »

Props who can scrummage are worth their weight in diamonds.

Which is usually alot:):):):)

Tim Robbins

1. You are more likely to get (or concede) penalties from a scrum than from Rucks or Lineouts. (I have never seen a penalty try for a lineout or a ruck :-))

2. If you have a good scrum you can really intimidate the opposition.
It is very demoralising to get shoved back in a scrum. Immediately it has knock on effects for example forcing your opposition hooker to throw in straight at a lineout.

3. If you have a good scrum you can use it for a pre set move, you can't do that for a ruck.

That said the importance of cheating in a scrum can't be underestimated. I thought Stan Wright was consistently dropping the arm on Saturday.

Healy has this trick where he touches the floor before the engage and then can drive in at a lower angle.

I thought McDowell overall had a good game given his level and the fact it's one of trickest games in Europe to ref but he missed Wright's illegal scrummaging in my view plus a few other things.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Tim Robbins wrote: »

(I have never seen a penalty try for a lineout or a ruck :-))

Really?

stephen_n

Must say I hadn't considered penalties and obviously that is a big consideration. I was thinking more in terms of an attacking scrum which is pretty much a non event for good possession in the modern game, usually only leading to second phase ball and more rucks where as the lineout will provide fast attacking ball to attack outside the 13 channel.

Obviously ability to scrummage is still important and props will always be specialists for that reason but I still think that there ability in the loose and more so lifting in the lineout is more important!

Stealdo

Personally I would like to see something done with scrums to remove the hit. A good scrummaging prop these days is one who can force his opponent to concede a penalty rather than one who can get a nudge to set up his back row. The only problem with that is that unless I am much mistaken almost all of the penalties offences in the front row are/were intended to protect the players, i.e. deliberately collapsing, failing to bind properly, not driving in a straight line etc.

These days forcing your opponent to concede one of these penalties by doing something 'dangerous' seems to be the aim of front row scrummaging.

I'd much prefer to do away with the 'hit' that we have now, see scrums form up as they used to, make the scrum half put the ball in straight and contest the ball based on hooking and pushing rather than squeezing a prop out of his bind.
Just a personal preference.