The Rise of the Irish Far Right

Het-Field

The comments of Richard Greene (Coir and potential party status) has got me thinking about the future of the Irish far right. This decade alone we have seen a large increase in those prepared to endorse the far right. This includes the large scale, and public activity of Coir, the large vote commanded by Declan Ganley in 2009, the negligible (but noteworthy) increases of vote for the Immigration Control Platform, and the regular rise in racist attacks which have occured around the country. The groups who proffer the message of the far right also have increasing access to the media by virtue of their frontline defence on issues such as immigration. In the last election the ICP were often quoted as the issue recieved more and more coverage. This is in spite of the fact that they have no real mandate on the issue, and are a small pressure group who have no desire to disclose their membership numbers, which no doubt amount to little more than an A4 page full of names.

Furthermore, scaremongering about traditionally "right wing issues" have contributed to the defeat of two referenda this decade. It failed in 2009, and the revelation about Justin Barrett's Nazi Boy tendancies highlighted how averse most are to the Far right. In spite of this, Barrett's crowd still play an effective role, and still are given widespreadaccess to the media, in spite of the fact that with the exception of Richard Greene, none have been elected, they are often quoted, and will play a large role in the coming years when family values are at issue. Remember, it is likely that the issue of Abortion will be revisited in 2012, as the pro-life members of the government seek to implement the policy which was rejected in 2002. This will give Coir another chance to emerge, and it is clear that they will not do so under the guise of "Youth Defence".

This is of equaly concern, as groups like "Youth Defence", "The Mother and Child Campaign", along with the Christian Solidarity Party, the nuttier wing of Libertas, young and misguided Neo Cons may actually be able to form a well funded and cogent movement, which attracts much support from the world wide network of rabid pro lifers. It could come under the name "Coir". However, it may simply change its names. Dont worry, they will be recognisable as the faces will remain the same.

Furthermore, the rise has also occured outside of Ireland. In 2002 Jean Marie Le Pen shocked the plitical world by beating out Lionel Jospin to enjoy the privilege of being beaten by Jaques Chirac. Furthermore, the European Parliment is now peppered with members of the far right, including the BNP, whose origins can be traced to a split in the John Tyndall led National Front. Of course, Mr Tyndall was open about his Nazi sympathies, and there are countless photographs of him in Nazi regalia.

This decade has seen a rise in this type of polatik. Is there a chance that a cogent movement of the far right could unite, and seek to stand in 2012 (or sooner) as candidates for the dail ? Or at very least, have they managed to get a "foot in the door" of the media. They will continue to be quoted, and as their ideas are dissseminated they will attract people.

Thus, I feel this decade is not a good decade for those who seek to promote progress and tolerance in society.

Victor

I think such groups will remain as a small minority, rarely getting more than about 1% of the electorate at national elections.

Referendums are different. No party can claim that the a referendum is an endorsement of their party. It is merely an endorsement (or not) of the particular referendum coupled with the feelgood/bad factor of the day.

Le Pen / Jospin / Chirac was an election skewed by a fragmented electorate and an over-sized slate - Le Pen only got 16-17% a fair cry from the 50% needed to get elected.

Most of what Ganley got was a protest vote and not a core Libertas vote.

prinz

It is a concern I share. Far right wing movements are on the increase again, particularly in countries such as Hungary in the east, Eastern Germany, Italy. There has been talk of the UKIP merging with the BNP, and they seem to have forged links with the FPO in Austria (those of Jorg Hairder fame) in establishing an ideological bloc in the European Parliament. The emergence of various right wing groups during the run up to the referendum was of interest tbh. It falls to all of us to ensure they never get a foothold in power in this country, and judging by some of the posts over on the EU forum, both before the vote and since I can see far right parties actually doing quite well here unfortunately. The economic conditions are coming together to facilitate it.

mike65

Nah, seen it all before - in Fine Gael! Remember old right wing nutters like Alice Glenn? Youth Defence have been around for thick end of 2 decades and have made bugger all impact beyond defacing Brendan Howlins house (or was it his mothers?). The Immigration Control Platform could hold their AGM in a garage, the idea that this desperate lot could somehow form an effective whole and organise themselves well enough to wins seats is eye-brow raising.

tba

I believe it to be the final strike of a dying animal, doomed to extinction but unwilling to go out gracefully.

Red Alert

The only person mentioned so far who has any hope of building a credible parliamentary following is Declan Ganley. For the record, I've no problem with him per-se, I want to see his post-Lisbon policies so I can decide whether to vote for him or not. I also thought on yesterday's radio programmes on the outcome of the Lisbon referendum he did quite well.

Pride Fighter

I was glad with the demise of the PD's as Irelands far right party. However if their niche is to be replaced with lunatics like COIR and ICP I'd want them back. PD's were a horrible party, but at least they were socially liberal, to go with their ultra-liberal economic policies. Libertas got about 5% at the Euro's, ICP and the other christian right would add a percent of 1-2 to that. With 6-7% well managed they could gain 20-30 town and county council seats and maybe 4-8 TD seats. Could be worrying times ahead.

Victor

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I was glad with the demise of the PD's as Irelands far right party. However if their niche is to be replaced with lunatics like COIR and ICP I'd want them back. PD's were a horrible party, but at least they were socially liberal, to go with their ultra-liberal economic policies. Libertas got about 5% at the Euro's, ICP and the other christian right would add a percent of 1-2 to that. With 6-7% well managed they could gain 20-30 town and county council seats and maybe 4-8 TD seats. Could be worrying times ahead.

You need to distinguish economic from social policies.

dresden8

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I PD's were a horrible party, but at least they were socially liberal, to go with their ultra-liberal economic policies.

Well they were quite liberal with their expenses claims in FAS, in that you were correct.

Kev_ps3

This is nothing but nonsense from boards.ie usual liberal loudmouths. How can you complain about this non-existent 'far right' when we have people in power in this county who have wreaked it to such an extent that future generations will still be paying off for their criminal policy's.

Kev_ps3

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

This is nothing but nonsense from boards.ie usual liberal loudmouths. How can you complain about this non-existent 'far right' when we have people in power in this county who have wreaked it to such an extent that future generations will still be paying off for their criminal policy's.

Because at least at the moment we can buy condoms.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think its a few years off. When all the African/Asian immigrants have grown up children and we have more black/asian schools I have no doubt there'll be a BNP type movement.

The problem is moderates like Kevin Myers or Leo Varadkar get called Nazis for even mentioning the subject or putting forward suggestions, which makes an extremist group more likely

Amhran Nua

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think its a few years off. When all the African/Asian immigrants have grown up children and we have more black/asian schools I have no doubt there'll be a BNP type movement.

That depends on how integrated into Irish culture and society they become. If we end up in a ghetto type situation it might lead to trouble, although I have to say I take a certain amount of pride in the generally open and accepting attitude of the Irish people so far.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The problem is moderates like Kevin Myers

This is the same Myers that was last heard saying the Irish people were gentically inferior?

Spiritoftheseventies

Het-Field wrote: »

The comments of Richard Greene (Coir and potential party status) has got me thinking about the future of the Irish far right. This decade alone we have seen a large increase in those prepared to endorse the far right. This includes the large scale, and public activity of Coir, the large vote commanded by Declan Ganley in 2009, the negligible (but noteworthy) increases of vote for the Immigration Control Platform, and the regular rise in racist attacks which have occured around the country. The groups who proffer the message of the far right also have increasing access to the media by virtue of their frontline defence on issues such as immigration. In the last election the ICP were often quoted as the issue recieved more and more coverage. This is in spite of the fact that they have no real mandate on the issue, and are a small pressure group who have no desire to disclose their membership numbers, which no doubt amount to little more than an A4 page full of names.

Furthermore, scaremongering about traditionally "right wing issues" have contributed to the defeat of two referenda this decade. It failed in 2009, and the revelation about Justin Barrett's Nazi Boy tendancies highlighted how averse most are to the Far right. In spite of this, Barrett's crowd still play an effective role, and still are given widespreadaccess to the media, in spite of the fact that with the exception of Richard Greene, none have been elected, they are often quoted, and will play a large role in the coming years when family values are at issue. Remember, it is likely that the issue of Abortion will be revisited in 2012, as the pro-life members of the government seek to implement the policy which was rejected in 2002. This will give Coir another chance to emerge, and it is clear that they will not do so under the guise of "Youth Defence".

This is of equaly concern, as groups like "Youth Defence", "The Mother and Child Campaign", along with the Christian Solidarity Party, the nuttier wing of Libertas, young and misguided Neo Cons may actually be able to form a well funded and cogent movement, which attracts much support from the world wide network of rabid pro lifers. It could come under the name "Coir". However, it may simply change its names. Dont worry, they will be recognisable as the faces will remain the same.

Furthermore, the rise has also occured outside of Ireland. In 2002 Jean Marie Le Pen shocked the plitical world by beating out Lionel Jospin to enjoy the privilege of being beaten by Jaques Chirac. Furthermore, the European Parliment is now peppered with members of the far right, including the BNP, whose origins can be traced to a split in the John Tyndall led National Front. Of course, Mr Tyndall was open about his Nazi sympathies, and there are countless photographs of him in Nazi regalia.

This decade has seen a rise in this type of polatik. Is there a chance that a cogent movement of the far right could unite, and seek to stand in 2012 (or sooner) as candidates for the dail ? Or at very least, have they managed to get a "foot in the door" of the media. They will continue to be quoted, and as their ideas are dissseminated they will attract people.

Thus, I feel this decade is not a good decade for those who seek to promote progress and tolerance in society.

A lot of very strong claims you are making there. Yes Vote won through and still some looking for pound of flesh. If anything I would have said the campaign has shown how little tolerance there is for people on the left. Higgins almost derided in some quarters for daring to defend workers rights while others are castigated for questioning the workings of Europe. End of the day, Yes vote won through. Leave it at that.

turgon

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

This is nothing but nonsense from boards.ie usual liberal loudmouths. How can you complain about this non-existent 'far right' when we have people in power in this county who have wreaked it to such an extent that future generations will still be paying off for their criminal policy's.

A completely misguided comment. If those in power were really liberal and right wing, economically, they would not have raised the social welfare and public service bills to such high levels so that are children will have to pay. Are you even aware of what far right economically means?

bayviewclose wrote: »

Higgins almost derided in some quarters for daring to defend workers rights

Are you being serious? The reason he was derided was because he was lying and thus not defending workers rights.

r0nanf

Unfortunately right wing ideology always grows in popularity during times of economic depression.

The_Minister

As per my previous thread, I blame Boards:pac:

On a serious note, I think it is a serious concern, and I think that if certain issues are not addressed then we will see a right-wing movement rise in Ireland.

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The problem is moderates like Kevin Myers or Leo Varadkar get called Nazis for even mentioning the subject or putting forward suggestions...

What suggestions has Mr. Myers put forward and what are these suggestions pertaining to? It’s a long time since I’ve read anything he’s written, but I seem to recall that he spent a tremendous amount of column inches making unsubstantiated claims and plucking “statistics” from thin air. He’s a sensationalist whose sole purpose is to generate controversy and sell newspapers.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That depends on how integrated into Irish culture and society they become. If we end up in a ghetto type situation it might lead to trouble...

That depends on what people mean when they say “ghetto”; like “integration” and “multi-culturalism”, it’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot without having any specific meaning attached to it. While it’s unlikely that a particular area in say, Dublin, will come to be dominated by one non-Irish ethnic group (the historical meaning of the term ghetto, as far as I’m aware), there will always be areas in which a large percentage of the population are foreign, such as the northern inner-city. Areas such as these tend to attract immigrants for the obvious reason that (a) Irish people generally don’t want to live in these neighbourhoods and, consequently, (b) rents are lower than elsewhere.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That depends on how integrated into Irish culture and society they become. If we end up in a ghetto type situation it might lead to trouble, although I have to say I take a certain amount of pride in the generally open and accepting attitude of the Irish people so far.

Yes, it does depend on that. I'm just not convinced the governent is doing anything to prevent ghettoisation or mass immigration from countries with vastly different cultures to ours. Pride comes before a fall and I think you have rose tinted glasses on. There's a lot of disgruntlement with non-nationals if you talk to people on the ground.

the same Myers that was last heard saying the Irish people were gentically inferior?

Possibly, he writes for the independent.

djpbarry wrote:

What suggestions has Mr. Myers put forward and what are these suggestions pertaining to? It’s a long time since I’ve read anything he’s written, but I seem to recall that he spent a tremendous amount of column inches making unsubstantiated claims and plucking “statistics” from thin air. He’s a sensationalist whose sole purpose is to generate controversy and sell newspapers

He complains that no one is willing to discuss the implications of immigration to Ireland. For that alone he gets attacked by various groups.

OldJay

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The problem is moderates like Kevin Myers . . .

Contrarians can never be so-called moderates. This means they would have to adhere to a 'side' thus losing half their shock-value profile.
A disaster for a hedonistic, contrarian journalist.
The sooner people stop looking to pigeon-hole others, the better.

As far as right-wing extremism goes, its not too hard to see through the lies. If someone doesn't want to though there's not too much you can do about it except say to yourself "may all your children and grandchildren mix well be Khans, Goldbergs, Singhs, Changs or Mwenges ".
Its easy to prove a racist wrong. Its hard to convince them they're wrong.

PaulieD

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

He complains that no one is willing to discuss the implications of immigration to Ireland. For that alone he gets attacked by various groups.

The problem with Myers is, sometimes he writes excellent articles on immigration but ruins it by producing trash like this; http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/africa-is-giving-nothing-to-anyone--apart-from-aids-1430428.html

He is a sensationalist, he wants a reaction, it sells papers. It is a pity, as he has written a dozen or so decent articles on the impacts of immigration, without ever really expanding on his points in future articles.

dsmythy

r0nanf wrote: »

Unfortunately right wing ideology always grows in popularity during times of economic depression.

Same goes for the ever violent far-left. The extremes always make their inroads.

Spiritoftheseventies

turgon wrote: »

A completely misguided comment. If those in power were really liberal and right wing, economically, they would not have raised the social welfare and public service bills to such high levels so that are children will have to pay. Are you even aware of what far right economically means?



Are you being serious? The reason he was derided was because he was lying and thus not defending workers rights.

think you will find Higgins has an excellent record when it comes to defending workers right. Took on the case of the Gama workers a few years ago.

turgon

bayviewclose wrote: »

think you will find Higgins has an excellent record when it comes to defending workers right. Took on the case of the Gama workers a few years ago.

I think you will find that if you read the Treaty, particularly the CoFR, you will find its good for workers rights. Thus being against the Treaty, he was against workers rights. Read the CoFR yourself if you dont believe me.

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I was glad with the demise of the PD's as Irelands far right party. However if their niche is to be replaced with lunatics like COIR and ICP I'd want them back. PD's were a horrible party, but at least they were socially liberal, to go with their ultra-liberal economic policies. Libertas got about 5% at the Euro's, ICP and the other christian right would add a percent of 1-2 to that. With 6-7% well managed they could gain 20-30 town and county council seats and maybe 4-8 TD seats. Could be worrying times ahead.

Seriously, ex-PD voters and Cóir voters are two extremely different breeds. I don't think anyone with any knowledge of both groups would worry about Cóir filling the PD's niche.

eamo127

Look at yourself first before you accuse all that disagree with you of racism. Remember, the NAZIs were committed and loyal socialsts - much closer to your own idealogy I suspect.

Spiritoftheseventies

turgon wrote: »

I think you will find that if you read the Treaty, particularly the CoFR, you will find its good for workers rights. Thus being against the Treaty, he was against workers rights. Read the CoFR yourself if you dont believe me.

sorry treaty is done and dusted. why you still arguing over old stuff?

turgon

bayviewclose wrote:

sorry treaty is done and dusted. why you still arguing over old stuff?

Perhaps you should follow the thread. Someone stated he supported workers rights, I said that his latest campaign was against workers rights.

Spiritoftheseventies

turgon wrote: »

Perhaps you should follow the thread. Someone stated he supported workers rights, I said that his latest campaign was against workers rights.

Yes saw that. And Ill say it again he isn't against Workers rights. End of.

Het-Field

nesf wrote: »

Seriously, ex-PD voters and Cóir voters are two extremely different breeds. I don't think anyone with any knowledge of both groups would worry about Cóir filling the PD's niche.

Throughout my three year involvement with the PDs, I never met one individual who would have been able to settle with Coir. The issues of the latter would find far greater creedance amongst the more right wing elements of FG/FF

mike65

As the PDs suggested taking "God" out of the constitution I reckon youse are right.

Victor

eamo127 wrote: »

Remember, the NAZIs were committed and loyal socialsts

Eh, no they weren't. The Nazis were only anyway socialist if you were an Aryan German and a party member. Which is quite the opposite of the accepted definition of socialism. The Nazis merely adopted hijacked the word "socialism" in the early days to gain a foothold amongst a disgruntled working class.

Overheal

come to think of it, as Catholic as the country is, its surprising how Left Irish policy is on the spectrum.

irish_bob

Overheal wrote: »

come to think of it, as Catholic as the country is, its surprising how Left Irish policy is on the spectrum.

not at all , classic catholicism is economically left wing , it is of course socialy conservative

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm just not convinced the governent is doing anything to prevent ghettoisation...

Well, is there a real problem that needs to be addressed and, if so, what would you like to see the government do about it? Tell people where they should live?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

...or mass immigration from countries with vastly different cultures to ours.

‘Mass immigration’ is another term that has been bandied about ad nauseam in recent years, but what exactly does it mean? How do we quantify it? And considering that the only countries we are likely to receive large numbers of immigrants from are the other 26 EU member states, is it not overstating things a little to describe any of them as being “vastly different” to Ireland?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

He complains that no one is willing to discuss the implications of immigration to Ireland.

Last I heard, he took issue with the discussion of immigration being ‘suppressed’, while expressing his views via the medium of a national newspaper. I also seem to recall an appearance on The Late, Late Show. Go figure, Kev.

imokyrok

Does anyone else find their eyes glaze over every time they read the words "mass immigration" or "elites" in a post?

OldJay

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

mass immigration from countries with vastly different cultures to ours

This 'culture' chestnut needs explaining.
What 'culture' do people keep referring to? Language? Okay. There must be efforts to encourage non-English speakers to learn English if they wish to reside here. It must also be govt funded. I learnt Norwegian thanks to a healthy start from a state-run course. This was after I had been granted residency there.
What else though?

How integrated does someone have to be to earn the trust of someone else already living in a country? What other factors do the anti-immigration platform and campaigners decree as constituents of a decent migrant?

turgon

Victor wrote: »

Eh, no they weren't. The Nazis were only anyway socialist if you were an Aryan German and a party member. Which is quite the opposite of the accepted definition of socialism.

Well they weren't idealistically socialist for sure, but they had many common traits with the practical implementations of socialism. Given that hard socialism/communism inevitably leads to totalitarianism, in practice socialism and fascism arent hugely different.

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

That depends on what people mean when they say “ghetto”; like “integration” and “multi-culturalism”, it’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot without having any specific meaning attached to it.

Specifically the meaning in this case is of a social or ethnic group who are marginalised within a society, do not mix with the rest of the population to any meaningful degree, and as such remain on the back foot economically.

djpbarry wrote: »

While it’s unlikely that a particular area in say, Dublin, will come to be dominated by one non-Irish ethnic group (the historical meaning of the term ghetto, as far as I’m aware), there will always be areas in which a large percentage of the population are foreign, such as the northern inner-city.

Those two ideas are the same thing, surely?

djpbarry wrote: »

Areas such as these tend to attract immigrants for the obvious reason that (a) Irish people generally don’t want to live in these neighbourhoods and, consequently, (b) rents are lower than elsewhere.

Generally speaking we have two types of entrants to Ireland - we have the economic migrants who are largely short term revolving door types, they don't really care about integration because they aren't sticking around, with a few exceptions. Then we have the longer term immigrants who might be in the majority the refugees and so on, although I stand to be corrected on this.

From my own admittedly anecdotal observations, these people are being housed in social housing purchased during the boom by local authorities, which run the gamut from poor areas to decidedly middle class areas. There isn't usually a single concentration of them to form ghettos as such.

I believe its been shown that people identify more with accent than with skin colour or other cues, thus I would say that since there aren't cultural centres forming its quite likely that given a generation or two there will be a good degree of integration between communities, and nobody will care one way or the other.

I find it very hard to believe that there could be a rise on the right in such an environment, other than the usual headbangers. Cóir have shown their level of influence in the Lisbon treaty campaign, so their potential as a right wing group is likewise limited.

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Those two ideas are the same thing, surely?

I don’t think so, no. Suppose you take 10,000 people from a city somewhere in the world and plant them in the centre of Dublin – this area is likely to develop into a mini-<insert country of origin here> where it is likely that many of the residents will not mix with the natives or even learn English. All understandable, but still not desirable.

Now, suppose you take 500 people from each of twenty different cities around the world and mix them up in the same area – the same sort of enclave cannot develop as each individual group will have to mix with others during the course of their everyday routine, which will require a common language (most likely English). Furthermore, if they are forced to mix with other ethnic groups to ‘get by’, they are likely to be far more open to mixing with the natives too.

All of this is sounding like a weird social experiment, but I’m obviously speaking very generally to illustrate the point that I think there’s a big difference between a single ethnic group dominating an area and a combination of multiple foreign ethnicities outnumbering the natives in a particular area. I don’t think it’s the same thing at all and I say that as someone who lives in Dublin’s north inner city.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Then we have the longer term immigrants who might be in the majority the refugees and so on, although I stand to be corrected on this.

Well, you’re muddying the waters between refugees and immigrants – they’re not the same thing at all from a legal perspective. Besides, the number of refugees in this country is tiny relative to the number of immigrants received over the last number of years.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

From my own admittedly anecdotal observations, these people are being housed in social housing purchased during the boom by local authorities...

Who are we talking about here; immigrants or refugees?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I believe its been shown that people identify more with accent than with skin colour or other cues...

I’m not sure if it has been shown, but in my own personal opinion I’d be inclined to agree.

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

All of this is sounding like a weird social experiment, but I’m obviously speaking very generally to illustrate the point that I think there’s a big difference between a single ethnic group dominating an area and a combination of multiple foreign ethnicities outnumbering the natives in a particular area. I don’t think it’s the same thing at all and I say that as someone who lives in Dublin’s north inner city.

So basically we're in agreement?

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, you’re muddying the waters between refugees and immigrants – they’re not the same thing at all from a legal perspective. Besides, the number of refugees in this country is tiny relative to the number of immigrants received over the last number of years.

Last time I checked it was in the region of 1:5 as a ratio, although its hard to pin down numbers on that. In any case we're not talking about the legal perspective, we're talking about the potential rise of a far right party as a reaction to foreigners arriving into the country.

djpbarry wrote: »

Who are we talking about here; immigrants or refugees?

In the context of the thread, both, and there is also an important distinction between immigrants and economic migrants, who are here for the short term, and who would constitute the majority of entrants to the country.

mike65

I'm one of a wave of immigrants who came here in the early-mid 70s when the economy was in a brief upswing. we forgot to leave. Many of those who arrived in the last 10-15 years will not be leaving.

Nodin

Het-Field wrote: »

Throughout my three year involvement with the PDs, I never met one individual who would have been able to settle with Coir. The issues of the latter would find far greater creedance amongst the more right wing elements of FG/FF

Though I despised the PD's with a passion, I have to agree.

About the only use for Coir is that might help other parties lose a few nuts, in a secure and friendly enviroment.

Amhran Nua

mike65 wrote: »

I'm one of a wave of immigrants who came here in the early-mid 70s when the economy was in a brief upswing. we forgot to leave. Many of those who arrived in the last 10-15 years will not be leaving.

Different situation now with wage disparities between Ireland and Eastern Europe.

Victor

turgon wrote: »

Well they weren't idealistically socialist for sure, but they had many common traits with the practical implementations of socialism. Given that hard socialism/communism inevitably leads to totalitarianism in practice socialism and fascism arent hugely different.

While we are possibly going off topic, I disagree.

Communism is about shared ownership of capital. In a communist system there is a presumption of equitable distribution, example Cuba. Of course, some animals more equal that other animals, etc.

Socialism is about the more equitable redistribution of the wealth created from the capital and is relatively neutral as to how the wealth is created and who owns the capital, example Sweden.

Totalitarianism can be any hue it wants and while communism is totalitarian out of practicality (you can't have partial communism*) fascism is inherently totalitarian. That is communism will only constrain those that don't want to share, facism constrains all.


* You can however a mixed economy with communism controlling only some sectors.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Lame Lantern

The progressive democrats saw their best results in elections prior to 1997 when the party (largely guided by O'Malley, Cox and Harney) was formed and sent to the Dáil on a ticket of comparative social liberalism on economic moderation. Prior to that, Fianna Fáil (our right wing party) kept taxes (particularly corporate tax) at an alarmingly high rate and funneled money into the public sector and small farming communities. This is not the behaviour of the Reagan/Thatcher right wing continuum.

It wasn't until McDowell's profile became high that the PDs came to resemble neocons or neoliberals. While Harney typically continued to advocate compromise and moderation, McDowell pursued immigration, law and order and "let the free market pave your roads" policies. And in 2007 the electorate resoundingly rejected this new identity.

Furthermore, Bertie Ahern would not have dared take some of the recent actions made by Brian Cowen in relation to the government's interaction with the markets. He was cut from an old timey Fianna Fáil perspective of appeasing the parochial vote. Cowen has signalled a distancing from this strategy, firmly announced by FF's move to Liberal International. And the public are in the midst of rejecting this new, middle-class, business, social-welfare-is-dispensible Fianna Fáil mainstream as well.

My point is that there are few areas of Irish politics that aren't eccentric when compared to the discourses of other nations. We have a far more reasonable electoral system that encourages politicians to skirt around the centre and attack each other on issues rather than amorphous ideology (even if our debate can get as silly as anywhere else at times). The importing of the international formula for neoconservatism has been met only with disdain by the public and we continue to see that reaction to this day.

On social issues, we're sucking because few mainstream politicians want to get into abortion or gay rights or disability/mental health issues at the moment. While frustrating, you can count your blessings that no (legitimate) party has taken up these issues in order to scaremonger and bully people into voting on the right. Weird as it is, such an obvious political opportunity missed suggests some hope for a further thaw in social policy much like we saw in the early to mid ninetees.

dsmythy

imokyrok wrote: »

Does anyone else find their eyes glaze over every time they read the words "mass immigration" or "elites" in a post?

Even the most PC hating person has to use the term "mass" immigration to avoid being labelled someone who hates immigrants full stop.

Tenderloins1

All the individuals involved to date in Coir have had little or no electoral success when campaigning on their own policies. Richard Greenes Muintir na hEireann was a failure, Niamh Nic Mhathúna was a failure, Justin Barrett was a failure.
Others such as the Christian Solidarity Party , Christian Principles Party and The National Party have been failures.

The Immigration Control Platform have been a failure electorally too.

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Last time I checked it was in the region of 1:5 as a ratio...

I’d be very surprised if that were the case. From 2002 – 2008, Ireland received about 80,000 immigrants per annum, whereas newly recognised refuges numbered in the hundreds each year (about 500 on average).

Amhran Nua wrote: »

In any case we're not talking about the legal perspective, we're talking about the potential rise of a far right party as a reaction to foreigners arriving into the country.

Indeed, which is why it is especially important to challenge certain perceptions.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

...there is also an important distinction between immigrants and economic migrants, who are here for the short term, and who would constitute the majority of entrants to the country.

I don’t know whether that’s true at all. I’m sure there are a large number of short-term entrants, but how can you be sure they are in the majority?