Music production degree?

DoireNod

Any of these courses in Galway at all?

tonyhiggins

Not sure.. not to Degree level anyway, I'd be certain. UL offer Degree and Masters course..

www.ccmcm.ie

biko

GC -> Music Production forum.
Bounce back if it's not suited.

DoireNod

I think it's a bit mad that, for a city of its size and especially for its cultural stature, there are no real higher level music or music production courses in Galway. Strange.

studiorat

Limerick is your best bet over West. NUI Galway has a pretty serious record for research in Human Rights etc, I doubt they are too bothered with "Music Production", though I'm also told they have a pretty good Film school. Personally, I don't see a music production course as any reflection of cultural status.

I reckon Limerick is the only one that actually does Music Production as a major, Maynooth lumps it in with philosophy and the like. That said Cork IT's new building looks really flash, and I do know there's another college with building going on right now and a Degree in Music Production in the pipeline. Guess they all got the grants in before the squeeze! What are we going to do with all these sound engineers?

Why don't you check out Belfast? Queens is well trick gear-wise.

DoireNod

studiorat wrote: »

Limerick is your best bet over West. NUI Galway has a pretty serious record for research in Human Rights etc, I doubt they are too bothered with "Music Production", though I'm also told they have a pretty good Film school. Personally, I don't see a music production course as any reflection of cultural status.

I reckon Limerick is the only one that actually does Music Production as a major, Maynooth lumps it in with philosophy and the like. That said Cork IT's new building looks really flash, and I do know there's another college with building going on right now and a Degree in Music Production in the pipeline. Guess they all got the grants in before the squeeze! What are we going to do with all these sound engineers?

Why don't you check out Belfast? Queens is well trick gear-wise.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that a cultural haven requires a music-production course, but NUI Galway doesn't even have a music course, nevermind a music-production one and I just think that's strange, given the size of the city and stature of the university.

Yeah, I'm aware Queen's has a great course - I'm just enquiring about other courses and Galway is a place I'd love to live and study.

Thanks though!

PaulBrewer

Aren't Pulse doing a Degree Course now ?

dafunk

NUI do loads of music production courses in their Carraroe campus.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Aren't Pulse doing a Degree Course now ?

yes but its very much performance based and the requirements are quite high. i think you need grade 5 or higher on an instrument (or relevent experience)

madtheory

Limerick IT has a great degree course. Very popular. You'll have to wait til next year to apply, CAO etc or mature student interview.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yes but its very much performance based and the requirements are quite high. i think you need grade 5 or higher on an instrument (or relevent experience)

Really ? For production ? That's a bit odd isn't it ?

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Limerick IT has a great degree course. Very popular. You'll have to wait til next year to apply, CAO etc or mature student interview.

Why would you say that Mad

Mars Bar

madtheory wrote: »

Limerick IT has a great degree course. Very popular. You'll have to wait til next year to apply, CAO etc or mature student interview.

Yes...but it'd be better in Galway! No hint of bias.


Our timetable sucks.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Really ? For production ? That's a bit odd isn't it ?

why is that odd? as far as im concerned a good producer should be fairly proficient musically, no?

the degree course doesnt focus on the engineering end much. thats what the diploma course is for.

from the site

Entry on to our Degree Programme is based on a combination of the equivalent of a minimum of 216 CAO points and audition.
Additionally we will normally expect applicants to evidence a number of the following:

• The ability to devise original work across a variety of media
• FETAC Level 6 / HETAC Level 7 in Music/Media or similar
• 3 GCE A Level, NVQ Level 3 in Music/Media or similar
• Extra-curricular activity, such as band performance, DJ-ing, community arts, visual or performing arts

Applications from individuals with non-standard qualifications, relevant work or life experience will be equally considered.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

why is that odd? as far as im concerned a good producer should be fairly proficient musically, no?

the degree course doesnt focus on the engineering end much. thats what the diploma course is for.

from the site

Depends I guess - a lot of producers I know will have basic chops ok, but rarely anything formal.

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Why would you say that Mad

Only stating fact P

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Really ? For production ? That's a bit odd isn't it ?

I think it's good to have courses with an engineering bent, and also courses with a musical bent. Course choice depends on the potential student's skill set, and where they see their career going. And which town has the best social life

Most courses teach more than just "sound engineering" or "Pro Tools" thankfully!

dav nagle

The best thing about these courses is how I get 5 calls a week from people looking for jobs, 5 for work experience and 10 for internships! It sucks though in all honesty.

madtheory

As I said, "Most courses teach more than..."

dav nagle

madtheory wrote: »

As I said, "Most courses teach more than..."

Do they study how to knock on closed doors? I am trying to get my head around this 'college' business. In the RDS on Saturday the majority of studios there were also colleges. Basically if you have a big studio these days you have a warrant to 'run a degree course'... Business wise, if you are teaching 75 students a year at say 5 grand a year thats what? €375,000 per year. So the 'big' studios are saying ''we can make more money using our studio as an education tool then as a normal recording studio''. Now it does make perfect sense doesn't it? The small studios like mine get hit with the backlash of 'dreamers' hoping to get a job.

old gregg

dav nagle wrote: »

Do they study how to knock on closed doors? I am trying to get my head around this 'college' business. In the RDS on Saturday the majority of studios there were also colleges. Basically if you have a big studio these days you have a warrant to 'run a degree course'... Business wise, if you are teaching 75 students a year at say 5 grand a year thats what? €375,000 per year. So the 'big' studios are saying ''we can make more money using our studio as an education tool then as a normal recording studio''. Now it does make perfect sense doesn't it? The small studios like mine get hit with the backlash of 'dreamers' hoping to get a job.

I noticed that on Sat as well. I was also surprised that the majority of people at the show on Sat afternoon anyway were under 20 years of age. I had the impression that if you were selling courses you'd targeted the right market but if you were hoping to sell pro equipment, studio space, etc then the audience was a few years too young.

dav nagle

The job scale:
Say RTE had 100 audio based jobs, TV3 had 50 and the smaller TV stations had another 50, that’s 200 well paid professional positions. Say all the major radio stations had a total of 150 sound engineers. Say the Irish film, stage and drama had another 200 jobs in sound. Say the pubs, clubs and venues throughout the country had 1000 low paid sound jobs...The total is around 1,500 jobs as sound engineers and 1,000 of those jobs pay bad wages...

The excessive amount of courses per job ratio:
There are at least 8 colleges specialising in sound training and what do they tell their students on a daily basis. '''You must knock on doors and write e-mails and yada yada yada'' does this process work? Well it didn't for me when I started out, eventually after 6 years, yes 6 years I was offered a job in a studio and by that stage I had built up enough drive and resolve to go it alone so I turned it down.

Passing the buck to the small guy:
This type of plan is very convenient for colleges because it essentially 'passes the buck' to the small to medium size studios that are in it just to make living. I am in no way saying that education is a bad thing of course it's a great thing but it's how they put a 'spin' on things in the class/sales room that worries me.

What are your chances?
So what is the point in sending out your CV to small studios? What is the point in looking for an internship? What is the point of it all? Answer:
There doesn't have to be a point it's all about making money, no one cares about you and your ambitions and your desires, you’re just another monkey.

How not to go about it:
Even if I was a millionaire and I was looking for staff I would go to the colleges and get them, cold calling and lashing out CV's is in fact an excuse to sell the possibility of getting a job in the business, I am not a trash collector so why do colleges persist on telling their students to dump their trash in my inbox? Because it's much easier than explaining the fact they are taking you for every penny your worth. They can put whatever angle they want on it I appreciate they have some great things to offer but come on, you are not fooling me old dogs, and you are just business people making money, shrouded by nice tech and wise words.

It is tuff out there especially if you owe the bank big money:
If you want to learn about sound that’s great do that and by all means I admire you for that, if you want to take that knowledge and start your own studio then do that too, but if you expect a job then have a proper think about the reality. Not only are we in a recession (which means job and wage cuts) but many of us are just trying to pay our bills. Studios of late are closing down and many of them have gone into serious arrears with money lending from financial institutions. The banks of Ireland have told me this in a meeting recently.

madtheory

Lots of sweeping statements in this thread. I will address a few...

The RTE guesstimates are wildly off the mark. A studio can't run a degree without acreditation. There's a wide range of courses, very few charge the money being mentioned here.

Look, this "debate" about music tech courses has been done to death on Sound On Sound forum. All courses tend to get tarred with the same brush, looks like this thread is going the same way. I'm not inclined to trot out a counter argument based on facts, any prospective student can judge for themselves with a little web searching.

AFAIK most courses actively discourage cold calling etc. and try to instill a sense of reality, but of course there will always be the minority of students who are simply deluded. I think it's a good idea in life in general to not make assumptions based on anecdotal evidence.

dav nagle

madtheory wrote: »

That's a sweeping statement. A studio can't run a degree without acreditation. There's a wide range of courses, very few charge the money being mentioned here.

Look, this "debate" about music tech courses has been done to death on Sound On Sound forum. All courses tend to get tarred with the same brush, looks like this thread is going the same way. I'm not inclined to trot out a counter argument based on facts, any prospective student can judge for themselves with a little web searching.

Fine man thats my opinion I am entitled to say it, but please allow me to say my bit, I wouldn't deny you the same. We live in a material world and thats the truth, money talks and all the rest. Even if you tripled my media and sound jobs guesstimates it's still slim pickings for the rest of the hungry job seekers out there.

madtheory

?? It's actually impossible for me to prevent you making your point. Nor would I dare to. I just wanted to add what is, from my point of view, clarity, before things get out of hand.

dav nagle

madtheory wrote: »

?? It's actually impossible for me to prevent you making your point. Nor would I dare to. I just wanted to add what is, from my point of view, clarity, before things get out of hand.

Point taken, I am a fire starter, but I never intended to start the fire in this thread, I was just backing up my statement to old gregg k.

madtheory

OK.

old gregg

dav nagle wrote: »

Point taken, I am a fire starter, but I never intended to start the fire in this thread, I was just backing up my statement to old gregg k.

what the .... .... as far as this forum goes, I'll agree with everyone and disagree with no one .... no sir-eee

<somewhat off topic>
I reckon some folks like approaching their careers/music from an academic base and others prefer to get down and dirty from day one. It's all cool with me anyway and whatever gets you to where you want to be is fine as long as no animals are hurt in the process. Hell, I'd love to take a few years out and do a degree in music production just for the sheer break from life in outer space.
</somewhat off topic>

madtheory

LOL

Also OT, I returned to academia as a mature student a good while ago now, having worked in a fairly wide range of music related disciplines for a good while. I enjoyed the experience very much! Much more than the first time 'round.

DamagedTrax

madtheory wrote: »

LOL

Also OT, I returned to academia as a mature student a good while ago now, having worked in a fairly wide range of music related disciplines for a good while. I enjoyed the experience very much! Much more than the first time 'round.

same here. im enjoying college much more at my ripe old age after having lived the music industry for well over a decade.

i possibly wouldnt have been as interested in it when i was 17.. i think i just wanted to be a rock star back then.

@ dav
as far as cold calling goes, its the same in EVERY industry. pople will send out CVs with the hope of getting lucky 1 time in 100. i dont think its the colleges encouraging people to do it. i know ive never once heard it advised in pulse. infact we were clearly told the realities right from the start but when you want a career and theres very little advertising of jobs then cold calling takes over im afraid.

jtsuited

I have a serious problem with the 'degree' word being used by some of these production courses. Who are they being accredited with? Let me guess it'll be all Fetac, Betac, C&G and all that yeah?

I have no problem with say Nui Maynooth's degree as it's a B.A (and hence is run just like any classically academic area of study in a University).
The problem as I see it now is that there are two very significant things going on here.

1. Irish Universities have expanded their computer science/music departments to actually run proper undergraduate degrees under the nomenclature of 'Music Technology'. Which is absolutely fine. I've done an MA in Computer Music in Maynooth and know the departments quite well, and as an academic endeavour it is a perfectly valid and legitimate one.
It fits the ethos of University education and is perfectly in line with the tradition of a University being a place of furthering human knowledge and understanding in a serious way. Universities are NOT training colleges. They are not Regional Technical Institutes (or Institutes of Technology as they're called today).

The contents of a course are stringently scrutinised by the universities to ensure that it fulfills the criteria of higher learning and thought.

Now while a few pro-audio dealers (who shall remain nameless) round here (who to the best of my knowledge have not been educated in a university of any kind) might think this is all a bit silly what with the fact that they teach them feck all about making hit records, the fact remains that a University Education is, in both theory and practice, a highly useful thing to have in life.
Well roundedness and the ability to undertake intellectually stimulating endeavours are two of the defining characteristics of a University education, and so Music Technology can easily be part of a University.

Now, while that's all well and good there is a second thing that has gone on in Ireland in the past few years .

2. Because students can go to actual University as opposed to some dodgy colleges (often fee-paying) and indulge an interest in music technology, the dodgy colleges have pulled out all the stops to keep the bums on seats (especially with the downturn in studio business in the last 10-15 years).

With slogans like 'actual training for the real world' and 'wonderful graduate employment rates' (someone should tell them that doing a city and guilds in sound 'engineering' and then working in spar is not exactly what people aspire to), they have tried clawing back the numbers fairly well.

So now, they're offering 'degree' courses to make it look like they can actually compete with the Universities. So now when Jonny our 17 year son with oh so much potential old fails maths in the leaving cert because he smoked too much weed when he should have been studying (and he's not that bright anyway), he has somewhere to go while his mates are in university, and can tell all of them well he's actually doing a degree too.

And so jonny actually gets a 'degree' because the course lacks any sort of intellectual or scholarly merit and the exams were so easy a drunk retarded monkey could pass them (although a good few halfwits in the class actually did fail, making our jonny feel like a right intellectual).

Jonny soon realises that his degree is worth nothing - certainly not in the academic world and even less so in the studio world. But he's told not to give up and keep hounding those actually employed in he industry. And that is how jonny no brains ends up banging on Dav's door.

DamagedTrax

I have a serious problem with the 'degree' word being used by some of these production courses

of the privates there is only 1 running a "degree" course and its accredited by euclan.

i really couldnt see anyone trying to pass of a non degree as a degree.

most of the courses offered are city & guillds higher diplomas and are advertised as such.

100% agree with you about education. it is invaluable for teaching people MANY more things than the course names would suggest.

old gregg

A PhD in Music Technology based on life experience. No class attendance ! No Exams!

Been buying records for years? Attending concerts? Maybe playing a little guitar at the weekend?

Answer yes to two or more of the above questions and you may be entitled to a degree, that's recognised, from Old Gregg's College.

But wait, there's more. Sign up now and you'll receive, without cost, our free 'careers in music exercise bike'.

Operators are waiting to take your call.

DamagedTrax

old gregg wrote: »

A PhD in Music Technology based on life experience. No class attendance ! No Exams!

Been buying records for years? Attending concerts? Maybe playing a little guitar at the weekend?

Answer yes to two or more of the above questions and you may be entitled to a degree, that's recognised, from Old Gregg's College.

But wait, there's more. Sign up now and you'll receive, without cost, our free 'careers in music exercise bike'.

Operators are waiting to take your call.

dude, im soooo there :cool:

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

I have a serious problem with the 'degree' word being used by some of these production courses. Who are they being accredited with? Let me guess it'll be all Fetac, Betac, C&G and all that yeah?

I have no problem with say Nui Maynooth's degree as it's a B.A (and hence is run just like any classically academic area of study in a University).
The problem as I see it now is that there are two very significant things going on here.

1. Irish Universities have expanded their computer science/music departments to actually run proper undergraduate degrees under the nomenclature of 'Music Technology'. Which is absolutely fine. I've done an MA in Computer Music in Maynooth and know the departments quite well, and as an academic endeavour it is a perfectly valid and legitimate one.
It fits the ethos of University education and is perfectly in line with the tradition of a University being a place of furthering human knowledge and understanding in a serious way. Universities are NOT training colleges. They are not Regional Technical Institutes (or Institutes of Technology as they're called today).

The contents of a course are stringently scrutinised by the universities to ensure that it fulfills the criteria of higher learning and thought.

Now while a few pro-audio dealers (who shall remain nameless) round here (who to the best of my knowledge have not been educated in a university of any kind) might think this is all a bit silly what with the fact that they teach them feck all about making hit records, the fact remains that a University Education is, in both theory and practice, a highly useful thing to have in life.
Well roundedness and the ability to undertake intellectually stimulating endeavours are two of the defining characteristics of a University education, and so Music Technology can easily be part of a University.

Now, while that's all well and good there is a second thing that has gone on in Ireland in the past few years .

2. Because students can go to actual University as opposed to some dodgy colleges (often fee-paying) and indulge an interest in music technology, the dodgy colleges have pulled out all the stops to keep the bums on seats (especially with the downturn in studio business in the last 10-15 years).

With slogans like 'actual training for the real world' and 'wonderful graduate employment rates' (someone should tell them that doing a city and guilds in sound 'engineering' and then working in spar is not exactly what people aspire to), they have tried clawing back the numbers fairly well.

So now, they're offering 'degree' courses to make it look like they can actually compete with the Universities. So now when Jonny our 17 year son with oh so much potential old fails maths in the leaving cert because he smoked too much weed when he should have been studying (and he's not that bright anyway), he has somewhere to go while his mates are in university, and can tell all of them well he's actually doing a degree too.

And so jonny actually gets a 'degree' because the course lacks any sort of intellectual or scholarly merit and the exams were so easy a drunk retarded monkey could pass them (although a good few halfwits in the class actually did fail, making our jonny feel like a right intellectual).

Jonny soon realises that his degree is worth nothing - certainly not in the academic world and even less so in the studio world. But he's told not to give up and keep hounding those actually employed in he industry. And that is how jonny no brains ends up banging on Dav's door.

What a post 10 out of 10! Hilarious!

dav nagle

poor jonny

DamagedTrax

dav nagle wrote: »

So the we all love education but at what cost and price and what jobs does it leave Jonny the weed smoking monkey with?

but the thing is that "johnny the weed smoking monkey" isnt usually the one who ends up with the job.. its usually "billy the guy who throws himself into things 100% and studies his balls off and learns acceptable studio behaviour" etc etc.



as an aside.. FREE THE WEED

Mars Bar

I have NEVER been told to drop in CV's to studios and that craic in LIT...well if they did, then I wasn't listening.

madtheory

None of the jobs I ever had were a result of cold calling...

RealEstateKing

of sound engineering courses are a convenient way to make money for the colleges themselves.

There is always more young guys (and occassionally girls) interested in studying sound engineering than a school needs to fill it's roster. Plus, because its got the word 'engineering' in it's job description, it sounds a little more realistic than wanting to be a 'rock star' - even though in terms of real, paying work, it is almost as much of a pipe-dream.

I think if I were to give advice to a young, bright kid on this subject it's this: Once upon a time, Sound Engineering was a dark art, practiced only by a few lucky/talented souls who had managed to get into a small, tightly knit industry that gave them access to expensive record-mkaing technology. Ordinary people could go their whole lives without ever seeing a compressor, never mind learning how to use one. As a result, many of us grew up wanting to be Sound Engineers, in much the same way as kids in the 1920's wanted to Train Drivers.

Now the technology has been utterly democratised: You can have a laptop running 128 tracks, a couple of decent condenser microphones and more compressors, EQs and whatnot than you can shake a Liquid Mix at, for less than the price of a Summer's saving working in Burger King.

This is bad in that some of the glamour and a lot of the bread-and-butter employment has gone out of the craft. Its good in the sense that an ordinary joe can get his hands on an (virtual) LA2A and a 1176 and all the rest and find out how they work in his bedroom. Having a good idea how EQs , Compressors, Reverbs and all the rest work is easy now, anybody could teach themselves the basics in a week or two. Of course developing those skills and training your ears takes years - but the part that can be taught shouldnt take more than a month.

For the aspiring Sound Engineer/Producer this means you should do whatever you can to learn skills that are still rare in this modern world: Electrical Engineering (Yip Soldering circuit boards and fixing stuff) , Music Theory and Arrangement (Know how to score a string section) , Knowing how to Acoustically Treat a room, or knowing which substances will revive a rockstar who's just overdosed in your control room (joke).

Sound Engineering, technologically, is not really that difficult: The basic concepts could be explained to anybody in a month or two: Its the years of doing it that follow that matter. Its just that in the past, even getting your hands on the tools to do so was difficult. Thats not the case anymore, and Sound Engineering is going through the same democratising processes as other previously expensive and difficult media, like Photography. "Shutter speed, aperture, depth of field, now **** off and go take photos!"

The nice thing is however, that as the tides recede, there are still just about the same amount of talented people left standing.

PaulBrewer

RealEstateKing wrote: »

The nice thing is however, that as the tides recede, there are still just about the same amount of talented people left standing.

Very good points Real,

When I started I knew no musicians (except an Uncle in Longford who played the guitar) definitely no producers or engineers and had only vaguely heard of Windmill Lane studio as it was on the back on U2's Boy album.

Heck there wasn't even a Music shop in Tullamore at the time.

It's easier now to get basic info than ever it was - it's no easier to be good

tweeky

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Sound Engineering, technologically, is not really that difficult: The basic concepts could be explained to anybody in a month or two: Its the years of doing it that follow that matter.

So true, it may take you a short time to work the faders but it takes years to learn how to listen!

studiorat

Whatever about delivering the City and Guilds courses. A lot of the music technology courses do a sight more than plain old music production. There's some serious work going on in the colleges. Limerick seem to be tooled up to the gills with an anechoic room and a 32 channel surround rig, there's some serious people working down there in Ambisonics etc. The head dude in Maynooth is a developer for Csound and Sound objects. Not to mention the craic going on in SARC in Belfast.

I'm not sure what background UCLAN have in music technology or who the external verifiers are for the college are but the course doesn't seem any different from the one in Lancaster where it's half the price.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

The head dude in Maynooth is a developer for Csound and Sound objects. Not to mention the craic going on in SARC in Belfast.

Is that Victor Lazirini ? He's a Turbo-Boffin ok !

PaulBrewer

DoireNod wrote: »

I think it's a bit mad that, for a city of its size and especially for its cultural stature, there are no real higher level music or music production courses in Galway. Strange.

Nor any major studios either - are the two facts connected ?

jtsuited

Haha Victor will be delighted to be mentioned on the internets. A true genius in the csound world (and programming in general - great sax player too!).

Funny studiorat mentions ambisonics. My thesis was a 20 minute ambisonic composition. Amazing area of work.

What is meant by the term 'music technology' in the University world is vastly different than what is meant by the C&G places.

SARC in belfast is something else. Probably going to become the next IRCAM.

Apparently there's a great deal of exciting research going on down in Limerick too.

studiorat

jtsuited wrote: »

Haha Victor will be delighted to be mentioned on the internets. A true genius in the csound world (and programming in general - great sax player too!).

I've been coming acsoss his name and his work quite a lot of late, he's all over my particular corner of the webber net right now.

Queens goes way back I think they developed one of the Music #N programs back in the day. Their set-up is pretty spectacular.

jtsuited

studiorat wrote: »

I've been coming acsoss his name and his work quite a lot of late, he's all over my particular corner of the webber net right now.

Queens goes way back I think they developed one of the Music #N programs back in the day. Their set-up is pretty spectacular.

wow didn't know that, thought max mathews did up til around 5 and then it was just a hodge podge of universities after that (which is I presume where queens comes in).

Seziertisch

I think what a 3rd level education in any field offers is a way of working and approaching problems and situations that is an invaluable life skill. Project work/dissertations/essays etc. require a strong logic and an ability to research, and largely require people to be able to teach themselves what they need to know to progress.

I think a lot of the music production schools don't have that kind of rigour, largely as they make up their own regulations and decide their own standard, which is fair enough seeing as they are commercial enterprises with the only entry criteria being the price of the fees. If they did take a hardline regarding passing exams/meeting requirements they would probably end up failing a lot of their students (something which these people wouldn't be too happy about after paying so much money). The downside to this is that even the really good students come out with a qualification which is largely worthless. A friend of mine attending the SAE in Germany talked about how the generally fairly low standard of graduates meant that a lot of employers had had not so positive experiences meaning that the qualification was as such kind of meaningless.

studiorat

Actually make that small "n", but I spotted that in a family tree diagram in the Dodge and Jerse book last week.