Leinster rugby

thebaz

One great thing I have noticed about rugby's growing popularity in Leinster , is that is its going beyond its traditional Dublin 4 / South Dublin base. I have witnessed in may inner city estates , kids passing a rugby ball, instead of the traditional football. I myself came to rugby through the schools , and never liked Leinster's elitism , but now feal proud of how the game is growing through the province, and of the province itself.

p.s. this is not a dig at Munster today , but Munster rugby always seams to have been a game for everyone , so happy days all round.

Aidric

Leinster still have a hell of a long way to go before they can be comparing themselves to Munster when it comes to inclusiveness.

Eoin

I think it also a case of the perception catching up with what has been a reality for a few years now.

Aidric wrote: »

Leinster still have a hell of a long way to go before they can be comparing themselves to Munster when it comes to inclusiveness.

What an absolutely unnecessary and petty post.

Chucky the tree

Reality? Disagree with that. The fact that whenever someone asked where to watch the match they were given a list of pubs in Dublin 4 doesn't say much either. The majority of pubs in Dublin yesterday would of had the United match on first and foremost.

Eoin

I'm talking about the game actually being played, not whether or not roundball was on the TVs instead.

Of course D4 is going to be a stronghold of Dublin rugby, but there are a lot of clubs in the outskirts and of course, outside of Dublin that are growing at a great rate and competing against the big clubs.

justsomebloke

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Reality? Disagree with that. The fact that whenever someone asked where to watch the match they were given a list of pubs in Dublin 4 doesn't say much either. The majority of pubs in Dublin yesterday would of had the United match on first and foremost.

Stupid post. Someone asked where the bst place to see the match in thse city centr was and caise of it's closeness that is whyy people said go to ballsbridge

Aidric

eoin wrote: »

I think it also a case of the perception catching up with what has been a reality for a few years now.

What an absolutely unnecessary and petty post.

Do you have some facts to back up that chip on your shoulder?

Eoin

What kind of facts would you like; teams that are doing well in Leinster that are not from the tradional D4 stable of clubs? Or are you just looking to argue?

I'm hardly the one with the chip on my shoulder.

Aidric

I'm not looking to argue. I just dispute the claim that rugby is as inclusive throughout the province as the OP is making out. It's still Dublin predominantly.

Eoin

Dublin being the biggest area in the province for rugby is not the same thing as saying that clubs are not becoming more inclusive.

There are more clubs outside of Dublin, and especially D4 - and some of these are doing particularly well. When you play Junior rugby in Leinster, you get to play against the township teams throughout the province and you can see a real community spirit where anyone is welcome to play.

My club might be in South Dublin, but I can assure you that it's a long way away from the stereotype of D4 rugby clubs. I'm sure the guys from the likes of Stillorgan would say the same about their club.

themont85

Aidric wrote: »

I'm not looking to argue. I just dispute the claim that rugby is as inclusive throughout the province as the OP is making out. It's still Dublin predominantly.

Well Dublin is the capital and has the vast majority of the population so ergo the majority of players and fans. This isn't Limerick and Cork splitting the majority of the fans, this is a population base which most of the province is based around.

tbh I'm sick of this whole 'wow Leinster are really inclusive now' since they won the Heineken Cup and beat Munster in a 'big game'. These things don't just happen overnight, Shane Horgan has been around for yonks. Sean O'Brien didn't just pop up one day. Season ticket holders from Tallaght, North Dublin, Carlow et al didn't just woosh and appear one day.

All the people saying this are only saying this because Leinster are winning, if Leinster had lost on May 26th and today, it would have been the usual 'Leinster are D4 ladyboys blah blah blah'. But the reality is that Sean O'Brien would still be in the system and the Leinster branch would still be trying to spread the game. But in saying that the majority are today as before from the schools. This is nothing to be ashamed about. Of course winning means more of the kids(and adults) from outlining areas can suddenly 'identify' with Leinster cos they're winning but the fundementals of Leinster rugby remain the same in its base and its real growth. Not amongst those who will drop them once Munster or Ulster climb back up the ladder again.

The OP is only proud of the province cos we are winning, this thread wouldn't have been started if we had lost.

andrewdcs

Most decent players in the province end up being sent to "D4" schools to get the best coaching for something they/their families love. Same with rockwell/munchins/pres etc. in fairness.

Heaslip, Cullen, the Kearneys, and many many more are non "Dublin". How many Kerrymen/Waterfordmen play/have played for Munster?
Munster base is Limerick and Cork schools. Leinster base is Dublin schools. Twas ever thus/

The myth that rugby in Munster is an everyman game is just that.

CatFromHue

hmm im going to have to add my 2cents to this too
im 28 now
i palyed for an old section A weaker school, prob the actually only school in D4 too!! (if you know your schools you should be able to figure that out!), in the senior and junior cup we played away to teams quite a distance away from dublin. st mels and st pats and also a team from new ross.
so to say now that rugby is branching out of dublin is false, 10 years ago we were traveling way outside dublin to play teams that wereny just there to maje up the numbers

anonymous_joe

CatFromHue wrote: »

hmm im going to have to add my 2cents to this too
im 28 now
i palyed for an old section A weaker school, prob the actually only school in D4 too!! (if you know your schools you should be able to figure that out!), in the senior and junior cup we played away to teams quite a distance away from dublin. st mels and st pats and also a team from new ross.
so to say now that rugby is branching out of dublin is false, 10 years ago we were traveling way outside dublin to play teams that wereny just there to maje up the numbers

There's a few schools in D4.

Michaels, Conleths, Marian all play rugby afaik.

CatFromHue

yep and only 1 of em is in the strong section

Podge_irl

The extreme disdain that people throw on the "D4 crowd" has always annoyed me. Its Leinster's base and there is no shame in that. They are making great efforts to expand their supporter base - witness the great strides they have made in Tallaght as an example. However, I have no problem with Leinster Rugby acknowledging their roots and concentrating on their supporter base.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people from supporting Leinster from outside the "traditional" areas. And inroads are constantly being made with regards grassroots rugby. These things do not happen overnight. GAA is completely ingrained in my area and there would be a lot of resistance to the Leinster Branch if they tried to expand there. Its not as if its a situation entirely of their own making.

We should all celebrate the progress rugby is making all over Ireland instead of belitting the efforts some areas are making.

raven136

Its getting really annoying that people will not accept that Leinster have and continue to broaden their base.Kildare for example has 3 clubs that are well run that all have a leinster season ticket holders and passionate fans and the same can be said for surrounding counties.Take a trip to a leinster game and notice the varying accents in the crowd.

toomevara

Goose81 banned.

thebaz

themont85 wrote: »

The OP is only proud of the province cos we are winning, this thread wouldn't have been started if we had lost.

Really ?

- i said I was proud of the province that rugby had become more inclusive , thers no doubt that 10 years ago Leinster was elite, bar the odd Trevor Brennan

winning and a bit more spirit does help, but thats true of most sports

Tefral

eoin wrote: »

My club might be in South Dublin, but I can assure you that it's a long way away from the stereotype of D4 rugby clubs. I'm sure the guys from the likes of Stillorgan would say the same about their club.

Its the reason why i Picked Stillorgan to play rugby with, a couple of my mates moved up from down the country playing at j1 and j2 level and went to places like bective just to be met with a suspicious eye. Needless to say they left and went to other clubs to play who would actually have them. Dublin rugby is still elitist in places, if you look at our Stillorgan team, there is over 70 players in training and matches, we have the whole makings of a team as surplus and we play in 3 divisions the ONLY reason for this: all the lads are sound and welcome new guys in!

Rugby in Leinster will have to get better at including people or else their clubs will find they are looking for players come match day!(something we see the whole time)

irishbucsfan

I personally believe that the myth that rugby has mainly been followed in South Dublin in Leinster is a myth based on, and supported by, the people there.

People from the other provinces like to point out the stereotypical D4 Leinster fan and say that this is, for the most part, the type of person that follows rugby in Leinster but that's just not the case and it hasn't ever been the case. There are strong rugby communities across the province. Naas RFC have 250 Minis out playing on their pitches every Sunday morning, and this isn't a new thing, and it isn't a thing confined to Naas either. School's rugby may have been dominated by South Dublin teams perhaps, but there are still teams like Clongowes, Belvedere, Newbridge College, etc. from outside the South Dublin area that are producing excellent rugby players constantly.

The fact that the team is based in Donnybrook and play their games in Ballsbridge means that most of the fans going to watch matches are from that area, but surely that has to be expected. If Barcelona played their games in Seville then I'm sure you'd see the majority of their season ticket holders being Sevillians.

The elitism in Leinster rugby does exist. There isn't much denying that. There are a group of certain people in the upper echelons of certain rugby clubs in certain areas of Leinster (not just South Dublin) who have always looked down upon rugby players from non-traditional backgrounds, however that is dying out fast and the fact that there are very few true "D4s" left in the Leinster squad is an example of that.

Bandwaggonery was always expected when Leinster beat Munster and won the H-Cup (I remember going to the match in May and being one of the few people on my street with my blue flag hanging out my window, and coming back to a street full of blue BOI flags!) but I'm happy for Leinster to sit back and take the money they spend on merchandise before they inevitably leave the next time we hit a dry spell.

damnyanks

cronin_j wrote: »

Its the reason why i Picked Stillorgan to play rugby with, a couple of my mates moved up from down the country playing at j1 and j2 level and went to places like bective just to be met with a suspicious eye. Needless to say they left and went to other clubs to play who would actually have them. Dublin rugby is still elitist in places, if you look at our Stillorgan team, there is over 70 players in training and matches, we have the whole makings of a team as surplus and we play in 3 divisions the ONLY reason for this: all the lads are sound and welcome new guys in!

Rugby in Leinster will have to get better at including people or else their clubs will find they are looking for players come match day!(something we see the whole time)

This is more so an Irish thing then anything. I've noticed Irish people are all friendly etc. but don't really like new comers inside their 'circle of friends'.

Most of these Dublni clubs have players who went to school together etc. So they generally arent welcoming to newcomers, its not intentional though.

ch2008

Podge_irl wrote: »

The extreme disdain that people throw on the "D4 crowd" has always annoyed me. Its Leinster's base and there is no shame in that. They are making great efforts to expand their supporter base - witness the great strides they have made in Tallaght as an example. However, I have no problem with Leinster Rugby acknowledging their roots and concentrating on their supporter base.

Thats a really good point. I think there's a real double standard at play here. So what if its been based in D4? Does it make you a bad person if your from a certain social background?

Two things I've never heard of in rugby;
i) Someone not being allowed join a rugby club in dublin because of their background.

ii) People complaining about Munster Rugby being controlled by the working classes

I think a lot of people should consider what they really mean by "elitist". The people that are the backbone of the game in Leinster are decent, honest people who work damn hard at it. And yes, some of them are relatively wealthy. I just don't see why it matters.

toomevara

Back to the rugby please folks.

ch2008

toomevara wrote: »

Back to the rugby please folks.

I would have thought this thread is pretty much on-topic?

themont85

thebaz wrote: »

Really ?

- i said I was proud of the province that rugby had become more inclusive , thers no doubt that 10 years ago Leinster was elite, bar the odd Trevor Brennan

winning and a bit more spirit does help, but thats true of most sports

I somewhat doubt you would have started this thread if Leinster hadn't been winning recently,but the reality is that Leinster rugby and the branch would be in the exact same situation in their efforts to expand.

ch2008

themont85 wrote: »

I somewhat doubt you would have started this thread if Leinster hadn't been winning recently,but the reality is that Leinster rugby and the branch would be in the exact same situation in their efforts to expand.

You have to ask yourself if its Leinster Rugby being elitist or Leinster people being reluctant to buy into the team.

Heroditas

Aidric wrote: »

Do you have some facts to back up that chip on your shoulder?

Clondalkin, Unidare, Tallaght, Stillorgan, Guinness. Yup, definitely "elitist" clubs.

toomevara

ch2008 wrote: »

I would have thought this thread is pretty much on-topic?

I don't want generalised, broad stroke comments about Leinster/Munster people degenerating into the usual idiotic, quasi-moronic nonsense. Hence my request that people leave out the pop cultural/sociological analysis and return to the topic of this forum which, unsurprisingly, is the game of rugby union, and, more specifically the topic of the thread at hand; Leinster rugby. There are plenty of other forums available for the discussion of the idiosyncracies of irish society.

ch2008

toomevara wrote: »

I don't want generalised, broad stroke comments about Leinster/Munster people degenerating into the usual idiotic, quasi-moronic nonsense. Hence my request that people leave out the pop cultural/sociological analysis and return to the topic of this forum which, unsurprisingly, is the game of rugby union, and, more specifically the topic of the thread at hand; Leinster rugby. There are plenty of other forums available for the discussion of the idiosyncracies of irish society.

OP- "never liked Leinster's elitism"

Eoin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are strong rugby communities across the province. Naas RFC have 250 Minis out playing on their pitches every Sunday morning, and this isn't a new thing, and it isn't a thing confined to Naas either.

Naas is a good example and also Seapoint Rugby Club in Ballybrack has huge numbers of minis as well, and is where Felix Jones (Munster and Ireland A) came from. Cill Dara have a very professional set up as well.

Stev_o

eoin wrote: »

Naas is a good example and also Seapoint Rugby Club in Ballybrack has huge numbers of minis as well, and is where Felix Jones (Munster and Ireland A) came from. Cill Dara have a very professional set up as well.

Sea Point still rely heavily on CBC Monkstown though for players in there Under age brackets, in fact for the pass 2/3 years they'v only been able to field their underage team with players from CBC. Same goes for the likes of Wanderers crap team until Senior Cup finishes and players are allowed to play in the Metro Cup.

ch2008

One thing thats always struck me is that as Munster became successful their support grew and people from Munster bought into the team without "Munster Rugby" having to sell it to them because it was their province.

There was no campaign or effort to get people to come, they just acknowledged Munster was their team and they came along.

I'm a Leinster fan and I'm often shocked by how reluctant Leinster people are to support their province. Leinster Rugby have to launch a campaign and try and make people welcome. Why though?

Maybe winning the H-Cup will change this for Leinster but for me if your from Leinster, you should support Leinster and if you don't then maybe thats down to you and not the "elitist" Leinster Rugby.

As far as I can see they've done everything in their power to be as open as possible, possibly even more than any other province?

OldJay

Aidric wrote: »

I'm not looking to argue. I just dispute the claim that rugby is as inclusive throughout the province as the OP is making out. It's still Dublin predominantly.

You should take a trip to some Towns Cup games or AIB League/Cup games. You would see a game that is most definitely growing outside the confines of the traditional hotspot of Belvo, Wanderers, Lansdowne, Monkstown.
See Connolly Station, Heuston Station or park and ride locations such as the Red Cow or Maynooth on a Leinster match day as crowds pour in from around the province to support their side.

Of course Dublin is "predominant". Its the largest city on the island by a country mile and boasts the largest amount of clubs within its environs. 'Inclusiveness' has nothing to do with it.
Anyone can join a rugby union club as member or player.

Eoin

Stev_o wrote: »

Sea Point still rely heavily on CBC Monkstown though for players in there Under age brackets, in fact for the pass 2/3 years they'v only been able to field their underage team with players from CBC. Same goes for the likes of Wanderers crap team until Senior Cup finishes and players are allowed to play in the Metro Cup.

I can't speak for the youth section (I was talking about the minis), but you could be right - I imagine it's hard for clubs to compete with the school teams.

What do you mean about Wanderers? They have school boys playing in the metro J1 cup?

We might be getting a little off topic though!

OldJay

ch2008 wrote: »

One thing thats always struck me is that as Munster became successful their support grew and people from Munster bought into the team without "Munster Rugby" having to sell it to them because it was their province.

There was no campaign or effort to get people to come, they just acknowledged Munster was their team and they came along

The support they enjoy now augmented considerably on the back of their ERC performances and in particular, the play-off encounters and tournament wins. Don't forget that in 2000, the largest crowds for inter-pro games were actually at Ravenhill.

There is plenty of promotion to the supporter-base. Nothing is taken for granted by any of the provinces. Munster branch have never sat back and expected this popularity to just occur naturally. It has been carefully and deftly marketed. The same as any other professional sports side should do.

Stev_o

eoin wrote: »

I can't speak for the youth section (I was talking about the minis), but you could be right - I imagine it's hard for clubs to compete with the school teams.

What do you mean about Wanderers? They have school boys playing in the metro J1 cup?

We might be getting a little off topic though!

No same applies for Wanderers youth section very few players up until Schools rugby is finished and they can play the Metro Cup and League which allows schools player to play clubs. These sides struggle to find a squad made up of players that are not tied to surrounding schools.

ch2008

Justind wrote: »

The support they enjoy now augmented considerably on the back of their ERC performances and in particular, the play-off encounters and tournament wins. Don't forget that in 2000, the largest crowds for inter-pro games were actually at Ravenhill.

There is plenty of promotion to the supporter-base. Nothing is taken for granted by any of the provinces. Munster branch have never sat back and expected this popularity to just occur naturally. It has been carefully and deftly marketed. The same as any other professional sports side should do.

I agree entirely and I think the IRFU and the provinces should be commended for growing the sport from what was a wreck in the early nineties.

My point was that Leinster Rugby seems to have to earn the trust of Leinster people whereas Munster people were more inclined to support Munster Rugby because its where they're from.

OldJay

ch2008 wrote: »

My point was that Leinster Rugby seems to have to earn the trust of Leinster people whereas Munster people were more inclined to support Munster Rugby because its where they're from.

That would be guesswork at best then.
Where was the support before the success of the provincial side in the ERC? It had to start increasing sometime and that time was around the campaign where Munster reached the final vs Northants.
My point is that almost identical marketing strategies were used for Munster branch that are used for the Leinster branch now and all run on the back of success (I'm not just talking wins either, as I said earlier).

ch2008

Justind wrote: »

That would be guesswork at best then.
Where was the support before the success of the provincial side in the ERC? It had to start increasing sometime and that time was around the campaign where Munster reached the final vs Northants.
My point is that almost identical marketing strategies were used for Munster branch that are used for the Leinster branch now and all run on the back of success (I'm not just talking wins either, as I said earlier).

But how often do you come accross Munster people who hate Munster Rugby?

anonymous_joe

ch2008 wrote: »

But how often do you come accross Munster people who hate Munster Rugby?

I've met plenty of people who wouldn't ever use those words but are far from happy with what Munster Rugby has become.

Largely there's a lot of unhappiness with the so-called 'footballish' element to the fans, who aren't as sporting, mannerly, etc, as is traditional amongst rugby fans. Because keep in mind that while there was always the old complaint about the IRFU overlooking Munster players, there was little resentment between the fans, something that's definitely increased in recent seasons, but lately seems to have retreated a bit.

ch2008

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I've met plenty of people who wouldn't ever use those words but are far from happy with what Munster Rugby has become.

Largely there's a lot of unhappiness with the so-called 'footballish' element to the fans, who aren't as sporting, mannerly, etc, as is traditional amongst rugby fans. Because keep in mind that while there was always the old complaint about the IRFU overlooking Munster players, there was little resentment between the fans, something that's definitely increased in recent seasons, but lately seems to have retreated a bit.

My point is that I regularly come accross people from Leinster who wouldn't dream of supporting their home province, but rarely for Rugby reasons

OldJay

ch2008 wrote: »

My point is that I regularly come accross people from Leinster who wouldn't dream of supporting their home province, but rarely for Rugby reasons

Well, I don't.
You said the Munster branch didn't have to promote the game to a potential supporterbase when in fact they did and still do, as with the other provincial branches.

anonymous_joe

ch2008 wrote: »

My point is that I regularly come accross people from Leinster who wouldn't dream of supporting their home province, but rarely for Rugby reasons

Well tbh that's their problem.

I'm from D4, and I support Leinster. If they've a problem with that, fcuk 'em. I'm not going to stop supporting my team to pander to people with a chip in their shoulder.

Leinster fans come from all over the province, and that includes Dublin's prosperous suburbs.

ch2008

Justind wrote: »

Well, I don't.
You said the Munster branch didn't have to promote the game to a potential supporterbase when in fact they did and still do, as with the other provincial branches.

I think you've missed my point entirely tbh

OldJay

ch2008 wrote: »

I think you've missed my point entirely tbh

I'm sticking to your original point. Not missing your subsequent point at all. You're alluding to some sort of country v city tribalism that some conveniently adhere to when it comes to Leinster v Munster. A kind of attempt at gauging provincial loyalties based on some people you've encountered.

You seem to ignore my own point however, that Leinster's support at whatever level is NOT limited or even predominantly topped by D4. The reason for this is the same as that for Munster's own support: success at provincial level in tandem with healthy promotion.

thebaz

themont85 wrote: »

I somewhat doubt you would have started this thread if Leinster hadn't been winning recently,but the reality is that Leinster rugby and the branch would be in the exact same situation in their efforts to expand.

I fail to see your point , in the past I have fealt less part of Leinster rugby (my birth place) , now i feel it is more representative of everybody , and I myself feal more apart of it , the spirit of course helps ....

ch2008

Justind wrote: »

I'm sticking to your original point. Not missing your subsequent point at all. You're alluding to some sort of country v city tribalism that some conveniently adhere to when it comes to Leinster v Munster. A kind of attempt at gauging provincial loyalties based on some people you've encountered.

There is a resistance there. I'm not sure whether its anti-dublin, anti-D4, anti-city or some other form of nonsense but in my experience there are a lot of people inside and outside of Dublin who don't want to support Leinster.

Justind wrote: »

I'm sticking to your original point. Not missing your subsequent point at all. You're alluding to some sort of country v city tribalism that some conveniently adhere to when it comes to Leinster v Munster. A kind of attempt at gauging provincial loyalties based on some people you've encountered.

Its based on a lot of people I've encountered tbh and has become infamous recently in the whole "lunster" debate. I really can't understand how you've never encountered this?

I know that the Leinster Marketing dept. have had a similar experience (they do great work for the record)

Justind wrote: »

You seem to ignore my own point however, that Leinster's support at whatever level is NOT limited or even predominantly topped by D4

I actually agree with this point and never said otherwise. I don't see what your getting at here?

Justind wrote: »

The reason for this is the same as that for Munster's own support: success at provincial level in tandem with healthy promotion.

I also agree with this. Successful teams will always gain supporters easily. However, some find it harder than others.

I really think overall you should go back through the thread and perhaps be a little less aggressive in your replies. You might find that in fact we are in some cases arguing the same point

SpAcEd OuT

Does anyone know how many Leinster players are from D4 in the starting line up?

None.

Cian Healy - Northside
Fogarty - Cork
Stan Wright - Fiji
Cullen - Wicklow
Hines - Australia (NOT scotland despite CH2008's objections)
McLaughlin - Dublin 6
Jennings - Dublin 6
Heaslip - Kildare (stand to be corrected but outside Dublin anyway)
Reddan - Munster
Sexton - Dublin 6
D'arcy - Wexford
O'Driscoll - Northside
Fitzgerald - County Dublin
Horgan - Meath
Nacewa - New Zealand

Orizio

D'arcy's Wexford (I think).

RuggieBear

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Cullen - County Dublin

erm...he's from Wickla...like me!:)
Stan is from the Cook Islands.
Hines is from NSW