taxi protest

Davidth88

Guys,

Looking on the T+C forum there is a lot of unrest on how the taxi protest is being dealt with by the AGS.

I am sure you are bound by rules etc, but a quick post on there may stop a lot of silly things being said

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

KoolKid

I'd love an answer to this also.

meathstevie

And how exactly do you tow away let's say 120 cars who's owners don't want them to be towed ? Have a massive riot and get some army APC's from Rathmines and Cabra to tow the cars while the riot is ongoing. Sometimes it's a lot better having a consultation with the protesters and do a deal on a limited form of non-violent action for a limited amount of time.

KoolKid

meathstevie wrote: »

And how exactly do you tow away let's say 120 cars who's owners don't want them to be towed ? Have a massive riot and get some army APC's from Rathmines and Cabra to tow the cars while the riot is ongoing. Sometimes it's a lot better having a consultation with the protesters and do a deal on a limited form of non-violent action for a limited amount of time.

So because its too hard a job the Taxi drivers should be allowed break the law. But the poor sod who parks 5 minutes over his time, who is not upsetting anyone , should recieve the full force of the law?????
Very fair , well done!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

eightyfish

koolkid wrote: »

So because its too hard a job the Taxi drivers should be allowed break the law. But the poor sod who parks 5 minutes over his time, who is not upsetting anyone , should recieve the full force of the law?????
Very fair , well done!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ah come on, it's not the same thing. If you park illegally, you should be clamped, no sympathy for you. The Taxi drivers are a bunch of self-righteous a**holes who believe that they have the right to bring the whole city to a halt whenever they feel upset about anything, but can you imagine the trouble clamping 100+ cars on O'Connell st while the drivers are grouped and angry beside them, and the repercussions afterwards?

Shield

At a guess, I'd say they didn't tow/impound/arrest because as meathstevie said, it would have escalated the situation to levels where not acting was in the best public interest. From AGS point of view, what's better, having an out-of-the-blue riot with initially 150 angry taxi drivers, with the potential to draw in every scumbag with a pulse? Or inconvenience the general public by closing off the street and containing the situation?

Also, at a guess, decisions like this are not make at Garda level. It's unfair of people to say they were just lazy. If the order had been given to use force, you can be sure they would have followed the order.

This is another situation where, no matter what AGS do, it will annoy and anger people. Whatever they do is wrong, so they have to do what they think will be the least wrong.

Why not pretend you're in the situation where you are in authority to make the call? Do you send in every available member of AGS you have, guns blazing (so to speak)?

Any Garda-bashing posts will be deleted, and the poster infracted. Let's discuss this with a bit of maturity please!

KoolKid

eightyfish wrote: »

can you imagine the trouble clamping 100+ cars on O'Connell st while the drivers are grouped and angry beside them, and the repercussions afterwards?

Thats my whole point , just because its difficult to do does not mean they should get away with breaking the law. Maybe a good fine would hit these muppets where it hurts.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

meathstevie

koolkid wrote: »

So because its too hard a job the Taxi drivers should be allowed break the law. But the poor sod who parks 5 minutes over his time, who is not upsetting anyone , should recieve the full force of the law?????
Very fair , well done!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Where did I say anyone should be allowed to break the law ? What I said is that dealing with that type of protest takes a balanced approach. One of the first things the senior member of the Gardai in charge of the area would have had to do would have been an assesment of the situation and possible actions. The one thing he/she would have had to consider before anything else is public safety and how Garda actions could impact on it. The second thing he/she would have looked at is resources at hand and how to keep disruption to a minimum. And I my opinion neither public safety nor keeping keeping traffic flowing as much as possible would have been helped by forcefully removing that amount of cars in the presence of uncooperartive owners. And as for breaking the law ? Have you ever heard of CCTV footage as evidence ? FYI O'Connell Street is well monitored and as a consequence files can be prepared on the basis of that against people causing an illegal obstruction.

And as for the parking argument, you know well enough that the Gardai don't police parking in Dublin as a rule. That's done by a private company on a for profit basis on behalf of DCC. One of the only times Gardai will get involved with parking is when it's dangerous or causing obstructions.

Iago

psni wrote: »

At a guess, I'd say they didn't tow/impound/arrest because as meathstevie said, it would have escalated the situation to levels where not acting was in the best public interest. From AGS point of view, what's better, having an out-of-the-blue riot with initially 150 angry taxi drivers, with the potential to draw in every scumbag with a pulse? Or inconvenience the general public by closing off the street and containing the situation?

You see I genuinely get this, but this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

However if whoever is responsible for making the decision made the call just once to clamp and tow every car that did this we wouldn't have any future protests. yes it would mean having to draft in extra gardai and maybe army in order to contain the initial protest, but it would also mean never having to put up with it again.

Sometimes short term pain has to be taken for the long term good.

KoolKid

meathstevie wrote: »

O'Connell Street is well monitored and as a consequence files can be prepared on the basis of that against people causing an illegal obstruction.

And we all know that wont happen

meathstevie wrote: »

One of the only times Gardai will get involved with parking is when it's dangerous or causing obstructions.

Isn't that exactly what the taxi drivers were doing?????

Kintarō Hattori

Why can't we have a little zero tolerance. Arrest the chaps, tow their cars away. Sure it would have been incredibly difficult to do, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean you don't do it.
Alternatively why not take the roof numbers and send each and everyone of them a fine.

Stand up to them, show the ordinary folk that the law must be respected and that you won't be walked over. I'm no AGS basher, but you've lost alot of respect due to the inability to deal with these folk.

meathstevie

Iago wrote: »

You see I genuinely get this, but this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

However if whoever is responsible for making the decision made the call just once to clamp and tow every car that did this we wouldn't have any future protests. yes it would mean having to draft in extra gardai and maybe army in order to contain the initial protest, but it would also mean never having to put up with it again.

Sometimes short term pain has to be taken for the long term good.

If the army isn't even used to assist with policing the worst violent crime hotspots in the country how can you justify bringing soldiers on the street to be used against people who are merely causing an obstruction in a road ? And also as PSNI mentioned : how would the situation have escalated ?

I bet my last penny that when word got around that for example the army and Gardai were forcefully dragging taxidrivers of O'Connell Street a full blown riot would have started and within five minits the airport and Dublin Port would have been blocked by other taxi drivers causing even more disruption.

You could send Gardai there to prevent for example Departures and Arrivals roads being blocked but they'd always be there late since there's already a couple of hundred taxidrivers there who can respond to one call from a mobile phone in seconds.

In this case I think just about everyone can feel sympathy for the discomfort of people stuck in traffic when the protest was ongoing but the Gardai in my opinion done the right thing by containing the situation and letting it cool of without escalation.

johnp23

Can i ask who would give the orders to the Garda to remove the taxi drivers. I dont see why 150 tax dodgers should be allowed block the main street of our capital because they feel hard done by.Should the Garda not be helping the majority more so than the minorty for the majority of people this "strike" if thats what you want to call its affecting there daily commute. Why should the majority be put out by them

Shield

Iago wrote: »

However if whoever is responsible for making the decision made the call just once to clamp and tow every car

AGS don't clamp. As for towing - did you see the moron sitting down in front of a taxi that tried to take a fare up O'Connell Street before the road was closed?

Now multiply that by 150. We're not just talking about a bit of short term pain. The people who make these decisions have to think about:

1) Where am I going to find the number of rank-and-file Gardai I need if I escalate this?
2) What will happen in the districts if I pull in x% of their resources?
3) Am I putting my members, and members of the public in an unnecessarily dangerous situation without reasonable justification? Can be this be either resolved or dealt with another way?
4) If I need to call members in for overtime, do I have enough money to pay them?

There are many more things they have on their mind when stuff like this flares up.

meathstevie

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Why can't we have a little zero tolerance. Arrest the chaps, tow their cars away. Sure it would have been incredibly difficult to do, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean you don't do it.
Alternatively why not take the roof numbers and send each and everyone of them a fine.
Stand up to them, show the ordinary folk that the law must be respected and that you won't be walke over. I'm no AGS basher, but you've lost alot of respect due to the inability to deal with these folk.

That's why I mentioned the presence of CCTV monitoring on O'Connell Street. And in this case I think it would be a prosecution more so than a fixed penalty.

faceman

Despite my utter dispair yesterday at the taxi drivers and my deep hatred for those who caused the havoc yesterday, I can understand the dilemna faced by the Gardai in terms of what to do and who makes that decision.

Im curious though, could a list of the taxis involved have been taken and a rejection lodged to the driver's license renewal?

KoolKid

This is the bit that amazes me.
If one person creates an obstruction it must be dealth with instantly.
If 100 + do it its too hard a job so just let them away with it.
Not attacking the Guard on the street, he/she is only doing what they are told but someone should have the balls to sort out these whingers once & for all.

Iago

psni wrote: »

AGS don't clamp. As for towing - did you see the moron sitting down in front of a taxi that tried to take a fare up O'Connell Street before the road was closed?

Now multiply that by 150. We're not just talking about a bit of short term pain. The people who make these decisions have to think about:

1) Where am I going to find the number of rank-and-file Gardai I need if I escalate this?
2) What will happen in the districts if I pull in x% of their resources?
3) Am I putting my members, and members of the public in an unnecessarily dangerous situation without reasonable justification? Can be this be either resolved or dealt with another way?
4) If I need to call members in for overtime, do I have enough money to pay them?

There are many more things they have on their mind when stuff like this flares up.

meathstevie wrote: »

If the army isn't even used to assist with policing the worst violent crime hotspots in the country how can you justify bringing soldiers on the street to be used against people who are merely causing an obstruction in a road ? And also as PSNI mentioned : how would the situation have escalated ?

I bet my last penny that when word got around that for example the army and Gardai were forcefully dragging taxidrivers of O'Connell Street a full blown riot would have started and within five minits the airport and Dublin Port would have been blocked by other taxi drivers causing even more disruption.

You could send Gardai there to prevent for example Departures and Arrivals roads being blocked but they'd always be there late since there's already a couple of hundred taxidrivers there who can respond to one call from a mobile phone in seconds.

In this case I think just about everyone can feel sympathy for the discomfort of people stuck in traffic when the protest was ongoing but the Gardai in my opinion done the right thing by containing the situation and letting it cool of without escalation.

and again, these are very valid points.

To be honest the more I think about it, it's probably not really a call for the gardai to make so much as a call for the Mayor of Dublin or somesuch personage. Currently these drivers can cause obstructions and chaos with impunity in Dublin and surrounding areas, there are little if any consequences for them doing so and they increase the chances of accidents (imo) because of the effect that they have on the mentality and focus of people who are forced to divert around these obstructions and sit in traffic for extended periods.

It's just my opinion but I really believe that dealing with this once, through whatever mechanism that takes, is the way to go rather than allowing them to continue with their campaign of obstruction whenever the mood takes them.

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

If 100 + do it its too hard a job so just let them away with it.

Do you read any of my posts? They don't just let them away with it. Quit trolling.

Shield

faceman wrote: »

Despite my utter dispair yesterday at the taxi drivers and my deep hatred for those who caused the havoc yesterday, I can understand the dilemna faced by the Gardai in terms of what to do and who makes that decision.

Im curious though, could a list of the taxis involved have been taken and a rejection lodged to the driver's license renewal?

I've a better idea - why doesn't someone go down, get a list of the taxi plate numbers, publish them, and refuse to get into a taxi that holds us all to ransom like this in future?

If I knew who participated in this, they would not get my business.

KoolKid

psni wrote: »

1) Where am I going to find the number of rank-and-file Gardai I need if I escalate this?

So if riots broke out on O Connell street where would the numbers come from? Are you saying then AGS are not prepared for any major incident that would require a large number of Guards at short notice?

psni wrote: »

2) What will happen in the districts if I pull in x% of their resources?

Probobly very little

psni wrote: »

3) Am I putting my members, and members of the public in an unnecessarily dangerous situation without reasonable justification? Can be this be either resolved or dealt with another way?

Yes it can be resolved by ignoring it & letting these gurriers break the law... Thats the easiest solution , lets do that :rolleyes:

psni wrote: »

4) If I need to call members in for overtime, do I have enough money to pay them?

From all the money collected from the fines handed out for all the illegally parked taxis.

KoolKid

psni wrote: »

They don't just let them away with it..

Sorry. But I think I missed something. What punishment has been handed out to these protesters?

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

Are you saying then AGS are not prepared for any major incident that would require a large number of Guards at short notice?

How would I know? I posted those questions to help people understand the type of things senior Gardai have to think about.

koolkid wrote: »

From all the money collected from the fines handed out for all the illegally parked taxis.

Wait... you think the fine goes to AGS? Seriously?

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

Sorry. But I think I missed something. What punishment has been handed out to these protesters?

You think Gardai are there to punish?

bugler

The right to protest is an important part of a democracy, and as such anything that could be construed as going against it is potentially inflammatory. Of course the Taxi men are exceeding their rights by blocking the streets instead of protesting peacefully with minimal impact on bystanders, but an effort to break them up or tow them would escalate things unnecessarily. Sadly, one man with a genuine grievance does not command the same respect as a 100 with questionable grievances (I'm not referring to Taxi drivers specifically here, I'm making a genuine point). Numbers give you legitimacy, whereas the lone protestor would be moved in minutes.

Not that it really would be their decision, but AGS are right to take the softly softly approach here. However, a message should be sent that these sort of protests that inconvenience regular citizens massively are not welcome. It is up to the public as much as anyone else to make this message clear. I myself will refrain from using taxis for the next few months on account of the disruption (and I got off fairly lightly).

If discouragement has to be given to avoid this sort of thing becoming regular I'd go with the issue of fines (if possible). If these drivers start racking up fines in the €100s it will soften their attitude. Only as a last resort should force be used to remove them and their cars. Dialogue should be opened, polite discourse should win out. People will need to accept they can't always get their own way, and that blanket inconveniencing of the general public is not desirable.

I had already predicted the economic circumstances the country is in as well as the detached corrupt attitude of the government would lead to politically/economically motivated violence. With the petrol bombing of the DoF office it started, the next likely flashpoint is a protest turned bad. AGS will need to show sensitivity in dealing with protests, and act with restraint and be willing to defuse situations peacefully even when provoked. There are plenty of elements who would relish confrontation with the Gardaí, seeing them as a tool of the state. The public should show support for the difficult task AGS face in this and understand why stepping on the taxi drivers hard as a first resort is not the best course of action.

Public opprobrium and the boycotting of taxi services are the most potent weapons there are to keep this from happening or continuing, and it's not up to AGS to use these.

WIZE

so what will happen to theses taxi drivers who blocked the street ?

Shield

BVB wrote: »

so what will happen to theses taxi drivers who blocked the street ?

That depends - what are you prepared to do about it? Are you, along with everyone else who was affected yesterday, prepared to go down to the rank next time, write down their plate numbers, and refuse to give them your business?

As bugler said - you all have a part to play. Instead of directing your anger at AGS, why not do something?

KoolKid

BVB wrote: »

so what will happen to theses taxi drivers who blocked the street ?

Probobly Nothing

psni wrote: »

You think Gardai are there to punish?

Yes!!!
What would you call fines & penalty points?

irisheddie85

i understand that once the protest was under way it was very hard for the Gardai to break it up without escalating the situation. But surely they knew when and where the protest was going to take place. If gardai were in place before the taxis got their and handed out fines as the first taxi pulled up or got them to move along it could have been avoided. Once all the taxis were in place it was hard to do anything but one at a time something could have been done

WIZE

Im not angry with the Garda. I like the Garda and I know where im from in Celbridge the Garda do a great job but I thought if you obstuct traffic you are breaking the Law

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

Yes!!!
What would you call fines & penalty points?

So let me get this straight - you commit an offence, and you get caught. You're saying the Gardai punish you? If I'm not mistaken, it's the President who signs things into law. Gardai just enforce it. So is it not the President who punishes you?

KoolKid

You are. But if you want to break the law find 100+ mates to do it with you. That way the Gurads won't bother you. Its not in the publics best interests appearantly.

KoolKid

psni wrote: »

So let me get this straight - you commit an offence, and you get caught. You're saying the Gardai punish you? If I'm not mistaken, it's the President who signs things into law. Gardai just enforce it. So is it not the President who punishes you?

Hand up I stand corrected:o. Didn't realise we were getting so literal.
So ill rephrase my question. How is the president going to punish those taxi drivers?

Kintarō Hattori

psni wrote: »

As bugler said - you all have a part to play. Instead of directing your anger at AGS, why not do something?

Alright. I rarely take taxi's as I'm lucky enough to live within walking distance of work. So as an ordinary member of the public....... WHAT can I do?

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

How is the president going to punish those taxi drivers?

Time will tell I guess.

Has the thought ever crossed your mind that YOU have power too? Why don't YOU punish them? Why don't YOU do something. Taxis wouldn't be in business without your dime, so vote with your feet and let them know how you feel about their behaviour yesterday. Start a campaign or something. Going back and forth with me on a forum achieves nothing at all.

Drummerboy08

I'll admit that i'd love to see something being done about the protesters yesterday.

BUT.

I do understand and appreciate why AGS did what they did instead of clamping/towing the cars, and arresting the drivers. I can only imagine the chaos that would have been caused by this - both from the taxi drivers themselves and from certain members of the public who seem to reside around O Connell street. It more than likely would have ended up with alot of injuries on everyones side, and possibly even ended up like the Love Ulster parade a few years ago. Obviously there was too much risk involved on the AGS's behalf to do this.

On saying that, what could/will be done to these taxi drivers now, in a form of punishment? IT will be very easy to get reg numbers/roof bar numbers with the amount of camera's around the O'Connell street area.

Now, I'm not a member of AGS, so this is my opinion, but i'd imagine the taxi protesters could be prosecuted under the following -

- Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal (2 points & €80)
- Driving without reasonable consideration (2 points & €80)
- Parking a vehicle in a dangerous position (Mand. Court apperance)

Is there any chance that even one of the drivers will be chased for any of the above offences?

As a previous poster said, I feel that AGS will lose alot of respect following yesterday's incident.


Info taken from www.penaltypoints.ie

Shield

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Alright. WHAT can I do?

See my post above. Let them know how you feel. Go down there NOW (assuming it's starting again today) and tell them they don't have your support. Look at the thousands that were affected by the selfish acts of 150. Where are they? Why aren't they counter-protesting?

KoolKid

I will be voting with where I spend my money. I think the taking a list of licence numbers is a good idea in principal but probobly a little difficult to impliment.
Are we going to look up a list every time we hail a Taxi?
If you ring to book a taxi or use them for business you could ask for the drivers licence number beforehand all right.
But that still does not change my view that laws have been broken, there is sufficiant evidence yet no action is been taken against those responsible.
I take your point its more difficult. But where is the threshold.
Would 20 be arrested or 30...40..50..?
At what point does this carry on become acceptable?

Kintarō Hattori

psni wrote: »

See my post above. Let them know how you feel. Go down there NOW (assuming it's starting again today) and tell them they don't have your support. Look at the thousands that were affected by the selfish acts of 150. Where are they? Why aren't they counter-protesting?

Go and tell them they don't have my business, I can see that going down well. Cue much hysterical laughing I'd imagine. Regardless I very rarely use one and will continue to do so.

I'm all in favour of getting our hands on a list of those involved but I can't see DCC or the Gardai publishing that.

Shield

koolkid wrote: »

At what point does this carry on become acceptable?

This really is your last warning for trolling. Yesterday's taxi driver protest was acceptable to nobody. Just because AGS didn't do what you wanted them to do doesn't give you the right to claim it was acceptable behaviour to them.

Rowley Birkin QC

psni wrote: »

This really is your last warning for trolling. Yesterday's taxi driver protest was acceptable to nobody. Just because AGS didn't do what you wanted them to do doesn't give you the right to claim it was acceptable behaviour to them.

To be fair PSNI it's a valid question. The logic so far seems to have been that the numbers at the protest made it impossible for the area commander(?) to shut it down.

If one guy was at it he would have been carted off in double-time, at what point does it become too difficult to handle? Not asking about this situation specifically but I am interested in the logic behind this type of decision.

Dublin_Gunner

I know how to fix the taxi drivers' issues.

Revoke the licenses of every one of the fúckers blocking O'Connell street.

There you go, a few less of the deregulated to 'steal your jobs'.

WIZE

PSNI . I have another Question .


If 100 people stood at a taxi rank i( on the Road to block taxis from entering should they get arrested . Personal opinion please

Shield

bigkev49 wrote: »

To be fair PSNI it's a valid question.

It was not a valid question. It was unfair to suggest that when a protest reaches a certain number, it somehow becomes "acceptable" to AGS. That's an insult to AGS and it won't be tolerated on this forum.

If you're asking me for a specific number: 37. I don't know. You'd need to ask AGS.

Shield

BVB wrote: »

PSNI . I have another Question .

If 100 people stood at a taxi rank i( on the Road to block taxis from entering should they get arrested . Personal opinion please

In law, yes, there is a power of arrest there. Should they? Only as a very last resort. Do you have any idea how many Gardai it would take to restrain 99 people when they go in to arrest number 1? Operationally, it would be a nightmare if you're talking somewhere like O'Connell Street.

Dublin_Gunner

psni wrote: »

In law, yes, there is a power of arrest there. Should they? Only as a very last resort. Do you have any idea how many Gardai it would take to restrain 99 people when they go in to arrest number 1? Operationally, it would be a nightmare if you're talking somewhere like O'Connell Street.

Because O'Connell street can possibly get any worse...

Arrest 1, I'm sure others will then do enough to warrant arrest for differing charges also, then arrest more until a sufficient level of arrests have been made in order to disperse the 'protesters'.

Either way, all the registration and taxi plate numbers should be noted, and at least, a temp ban on their licenses be enforced.
**Edit

Or maybe a warning given that they have 15 minutes to vacate the area, or then the above will happen. Simple.

Shield

Yeah. Simple.

It wouldn't attract any scumbags. They wouldn't get involved. Everything would be peaceful. There'd be no injuries. Property wouldn't be damaged. Everyone would comply.

Simple.

WIZE

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1002/breaking11.html?via=mr
This is from the Irish times
You can see the taxi plate numbers from the first two taxis which block up the rest of the traffic . Surely The owners of these two taxis can be prosacuted now for Obstruction


Maybe it is me being pissed off but I hope the Law comes down hard on these Taxi Drivers

Dublin_Gunner

psni wrote: »

Yeah. Simple.

It wouldn't attract any scumbags. They wouldn't get involved. Everything would be peaceful. There'd be no injuries. Property wouldn't be damaged. Everyone would comply.

Simple.

You don't possibly mean the Gardaí shouldn't do their job for fear of creating any animosity in the crowd do you?

How dare anyone suggest to do something the taxi drivers might not agree with:rolleyes:

The Gardaí need to make a point that this sort of thing CANNOT happen without repercussion. Otherwise there will be a precedent set (as if there already hasn't been).