Casual Sexism

LadyJ

Read this article the other day.

Reading some of those examples of casual sexism really pissed me off. And it's not just women, men get this crap too. I can't think of what the hell ad it was but it was something that made men look really stupid. It was on a while back. Maybe some cleaning product or something that made men look like domestic retards and women, domestic goddesses.

Anyway, do you (as women or as men) challenge casual sexism when you come across it? Does it bother you? Give me some everyday examples if you can think of them.

I went back to college last year and I was sickened by all of the bullshít. The ents officer was obviously just into organising events where women got next to naked all the time (school themed discos, mud wrestling, club nights where women in bikinis go around with snakes hanging around their necks, etc.) and he was always in the class advertising these events and saying stuff like "So girls, wear something skimpy and tight! Wha wha wha!"

It really was vile.

The main problem I found was that the girls would just sit there and giggle and then plan their outfits after they heard about these things. It was seen as uncool to give out about this kind of thing. I am sometimes seen as a bit of a buzz-kill but I just can't stand all of this crap. Feminism (and whatever it's male equivalent is) is something to be proud of and not something to be embarrassed by. For fúck sake, stand up for yourselves! It's not PC gone mad here, it's just plain respect that we should all be fighting for, man, woman or child. Don't let people make you feel ashamed for feeling this way. You don't have to roll over and conform to a way of life that is so cringe-worthy and humiliating.

me_right_one

Was it the add for colour catcher where yerman puts his white Y-fronts in with his red shirt, and they come out pink?

Yea it pisses me off too (I'm a man). Whenever something sexist is said by one of my mates to a girl, the usual response is "You MEN!!!" I do be like hey, wait a minute, get off the irony bus........


Thats another one. The TV license add where the woman says "You man are all the same". Sexist on both sides methinks, 1) where the woman accuses all men of being the same, 2) at RTE for implying that women typically behave like that. Only for the fact its a comedic add:cool:

LadyJ

Think it was colour catcher. Yeah men are sometimes portrayed as awful idiots by the media.

Kold

Meh, it's just demographics for you. I just accept that Marketing will always be full of c*ntishness and ignore it therefore doing the opposite of what they want. You see lads giving out all the time about being expected to be into football or other stuff, I don't give a sh*t in the end, I love football. For every 5 lads that aren't interested, there are 5 that are. The flipside is that generalising people is perfectly natural. I wouldn't even call it wrong unless you are actively discriminating, merely... ignorant.

As for the ents guy, well he was getting the desired result. Even if you were to eat his face off for it, the reward of getting those young chick drunk and scantily clad and having a good time is worth it.

I'm dismissively sexist all the time. Most people accept that I'm kidding (I have a huge amount of female friends and my course is predominately female), the ones that get narky I reckon are just humourless/uptight and didn't get the joke. Just as they'll probably peg me in their mind as an ignorant pig, I'll most likely peg them as an uptight bitch.

Silverfish

I'm the only female in a department of 30 men.

I could fill this thread. Some days I can laugh about it, or joke along, and some days I go home and cry my eyes out. It wears you down when it happens every day, every week, for years.

When it's challenged, it's 'Ah sure it's only a joke!'.
That's 5 or so jokes a day, 5 days a week, month after month.

I'm not permitted to post details or anecdotes, but cooking/cleaning/shopping/makeup/driving/talking/ability to comprehend/etc are all called into question under the guise of 'jokes' on a continuous basis, each guy thinking they're the only one to make the joke.

I'll tell you, when you've heard the same thing for 10+ years, you start to realise, that's how people really think.

Kold wrote: »

I'm dismissively sexist all the time. Most people accept that I'm kidding (I have a huge amount of female friends and my course is predominately female), the ones that get narky I reckon are just humourless/uptight and didn't get the joke. Just as they'll probably peg me in their mind as an ignorant pig, I'll most likely peg them as an uptight bitch.

That's a bit unfair, you're jeering someone for their gender. That's grand. But what if that's the millionth time they've heard it, and it actually upset them?
Are they to avoid being narky in case they annoy you? What about you avoiding annoying them instead?

itsallaboutheL

I'm wary of posting tbh, but from the OP regarding the girls not standing up for themselves, it reads as though the girls didn't stand up for themselves because they didn't feel aggreived, and that you are put out beacause of this just as much as you are by the plonker of an Ents Officer??

I mean it's up to individual person to decide what they should be offended or feel degraded by is it not?

Morlar

Silverfish wrote: »

I'll tell you, when you've heard the same thing for 10+ years, you start to realise, that's how people really think.

Could always be that you work with a bunch of immature assholes.

LadyJ

I'm not saying that jokes can't be funny between friends or in a relationship sometimes but sometimes it goes too far and it can be inappropriate or hurtful, as Silverfish has pointed out.

I used to have a manager who called all of the girls "honey" and "babes". I mean, some would say that's friendly but it wasn't, it was just creepy. Imagine if a lecturer or a teacher did this. It's just not professional.

LadyJ

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I mean it's up to individual person to decide what they should be offended or feel degraded by is it not?

Of course it is but my point is that they should feel aggrieved by this! Society has just fallen into this habit of not caring because everyone does it and it's the norm. It shouldn't be the norm for anyone to be disrespected, objectified or humiliated.

Also, I study social care and I know that it is important not to impose your beliefs or culture etc. on other people. However, if I was working, for example, with a group of people whose cultural group abused them because that was the norm, I may not be able to drag them out of there and tell them it's a load of bollox and it shouldn't be allowed but I could empower them through knowledge and education etc. My point is that people need to be informed and empowered so that they know they have a choice and that they don't have to roll over and live like this.

Silverfish

Morlar wrote: »

Could always be that you work with a bunch of immature assholes.

It could be, but it's highly unlikely, since this happens outside of work too, I was just pointing out that's where my main supply of it comes from.

They don't behave immature in any other ways either, just in this one.

In previous jobs, if we had a meeting with a manager, if one of the lads was called in, in he'd go, no bother. If one of the girls was called in, she had to bring in coffee. The ladies were expected to make the coffee and keep the office tidy. Despite us doing the exact same job as the blokes, and having the same titles.

Anyway, I challenge it where necessary.
I challenge it when it affects my job, and how I do it, and when I feel bullied or intimidated.

itsallaboutheL

LadyJ wrote: »

Of course it is but my point is that they should feel aggrieved by this! Society has just fallen into this habit of not caring because everyone does it and it's the norm. It shouldn't be the norm for anyone to be disrespected, objectified or humiliated.

i agree with you to a large degree, however it's unnecessary for you to feel humiliated in someone else's place, i mean as far as i'm concerned if people want to objectify themselves then it's there perogative, we all have different personalities and whats white to some is grey to others.

Kold

Silverfish wrote: »

Are they to avoid being narky in case they annoy you? What about you avoiding annoying them instead?

It's only really occured when someone else has sat in whilst I've been mocking an actual friend. I get mocked for my heritage/sex/mannerisms all the time and I'm fine with that. As for having heard it before, well I try to keep my material fresh. Also, yes, I do have problems with people telling me what I can and cannot laugh about.

They can be as narky as they want but they shouldn't assume that I won't judge them for it.

Nevyn

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article6849600.ece

It's time to challenge casual sexism
Many women notice but don’t challenge sexist culture, afraid to seem ‘uptight’. Now it’s time to expose the misogynists

When The Times published my article last month on how feminism’s silence over the past decade has ushered in a grim, sexualised culture, I was astonished by the response. Hundreds of women — and some men — commented on the website, many more e-mailed me directly. The message overwhelmingly was: thank God, someone is saying this — I thought I was alone.

Reading these letters, I too was overjoyed to discover that I wasn’t the only person buying a KitKat in the newsagent who resents a tit-fest of lads mags at eye-level. Or who is incensed that Channel 4, with its public service remit, broadcasts shows such as Ten Years Younger, which encourage women to chop up their bodies with unnecessary and dangerous plastic surgery. Or who is simply weary to the verge of despair that every single women in British public life is relentlessly judged for her hair, figure, clothes and “hotness”.

As if to affirm this, that very week, Rod Liddle, dragged out his knackered old bête noir routine with a Spectator article beginning “So — Harriet Harman, then. Would you? I mean after a few beers obviously, not while you were sober”. It was the sort of hateful wind-up — calibrated to provoke female outrage, while playing to a sniggering, pot-bellied tap-room misogyny — that Liddle could always shrug off with the age-old refrain: the trouble with you birds, is, you can’t take a joke.

But how exactly were women readers supposed to respond to this? Indulgently? Oh, naughty old Rod! What I actually felt was not anger but disgust. The cover story on our leading political weekly magazine was a beery and cretinous assessment of our women politicians’ shaggability. I was reminded of an old remark by Gloria Steinhem that “any woman who chooses to behave as a full human being should be warned that the armies of the status quo will treat her as something of a dirty joke. That’s their natural and first weapon.”


A week later I was still fuming about this when I spotted the Spectator editor at the time, Matthew D’Ancona — who I know a little socially — at a film screening. I sat throughout the movie planning what I would say: how disappointed I was that such a celebratedly clever and cultured man could print such garbage. But in the end I just left. It was easier to say nothing than to risk weary accusations of being a strident old ranty-pants, him laughing behind his hands later. Yet it is such silence that granted him permission to publish.

It was Times readers who inspired a new column, launched today, by sending me examples of what I can only classify in my mind as — sorry! — sexist bollocks. One woman was appalled to overhear a male personal trainer in a park addressing his clients as “bitches”, another reader wrote to me about a chain of coffee shops in the United States that hopes to attract male clientele by putting its baristas in bikinis; another about a “fittest freshers” beauty contest at her university.

I received a link to a story on the British Army’s website about how Corporal Katrina Hodge has become the face of La Senza lingerie, complete with an FHM High Street Honeys-style picture. Aren’t you reassured that our servicewomen are treated with respect and seriousness, when you read that Cpl Hodge, who received a medal for bravery for disarming an insurgent in Iraq, is known as “Combat Barbie”?

Sometimes a quote from some idiot leaves you fuming all day; an advert on the Tube makes you itch for a marker pen. Because now even the word sexist is seen as yawny and outmoded, it is hard to know what to do with these outrages except rant to your friends. When the Lawn Tennis Association decided to award Wimbledon Centre Court not to the best women players but the “sexiest”, I was bending the ear of anyone who’d listen. But now you can send your bugbears to us and we’ll publish the most offensive.

Does casual sexism matter any more? Aren’t we all too cool and liberated to care? It is always crass and reductive to draw up cause and effect. But there are certain things that make you wonder. When Britain, with just 19.7 per cent women MPs, is 51st among democratic nations for female representation — not just below the groovy progressive Scandinavians but Bulgaria, Latvia, Eritrea and, for goodness’ sake, Pakistan — you have to ask if the stench of misogyny deters good women from standing, or insinuates to those who might select them that really they have no place being there.

Harriet Harman seems to think so. On Saturday, she told The Times of her plans to try to force companies to include a quota of women on their boards. She believes that we need to to be more like Norway, where all private sector boards are at least 40 per cent female (and where, incidentally, sexist advertising has been banned since 2003).

Does a deluge of pornified images in magazines and ads, plus the flood of internet pornography, have any connection with Britain having the lowest rape conviction rate in Europe?

The New Yorker critic David Denby has coined the term “culture of snark” to describe the relentless, nihilistic meanness that characterises contemporary discourse, which is aimed disproportionately at women. All those spiteful digs at a woman’s breasts, bums, wrinkles, cellulite ringed in Heat, dissected in chatrooms.

The other day I read a report about Ulrika Jonsson going to the supermarket in which an onlooker was quoted as saying: “It seemed to be just one of those days. Her age and her mood were printed all over her face.” How dare she grow old. How dare any woman over 40 think she has any place on TV.

So much hate begetting further self-hate — food disorders, self-harming, the constant, low-level buzz of a woman’s unhappiness with her body. Hate that leads only to a “kerching!” in the tills of plastic surgeons. Indeed, the clinics that profit from women’s insecurities deserve a whole category of shame. Scanning the back of women’s magazines, you learn about parts of your body you hadn’t even thought about hating. “Areola reduction”, “genital reshaping”, “eyelid correction”... Meanwhile “Hannah, 28” says that cosmetic surgery is “the best thing I have ever done”.

But there is no point making an official protest about a sexist advertisement: a friend who complained to ASA that a huge, soft-porn hoarding advertising a lap dancing club opposite a sixth form college degraded women was outraged by the judgment that “in the context of an ad for a table-dancing club, the image was unlikely to be seen as unduly explicit or overly provocative.” So that’s OK, then!

Somewhere in the free-market driven moral relativism of the past decade, we have lost the ability to say, without fear of being called uptight or fun-sucking, that selling sex on the high street, raunchy outfits for toddlers or scabrous attacks on female public figures based upon their looks just ain’t right. And our best weapon for changing things is exposure and ridicule. So send your clippings, quotes, anecdotes or ads to us. Feminism — or whatever you want to call it — is back, and we’re not going to take it any more.

As some people might have trouble accessing the site you linked to

Morlar

Silverfish wrote: »

If one of the girls was called in, she had to bring in coffee. The ladies were expected to make the coffee and keep the office tidy.

That is crazy, I have worked in different companies and can't remember seeing anything like that.

Even in enviornments where there was one female in an otherwise all male floor and nothing remotely like that would be tolerated.

The closest thing was in la defense in france where at one building there were 2 female staff operating near the turnstiles at the main entrance to the building. They were both basically super models, who used a remote control thingie and clicked visitors who didn't have permie badges through the security doors.

The role they had was entirely based on their looks, I suppose it was more of a PR job than an actual role so it's arguable whether or not it was sexism on the part of their employers. As far as office staff the above behaviour in your post is not the norm in my view.

Kooli

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

i agree with you to a large degree, however it's unnecessary for you to feel humiliated in someone else's place, i mean as far as i'm concerned if people want to objectify themselves then it's there perogative, we all have different personalities and whats white to some is grey to others.

I know that this is the logical way to see it, but I can't help but feel aggrieved or humiliated on others' behalf.

That article was brilliant and got me so riled up! She put words to how I've been feeling for YEARS!

It's so hard to see teenage girls and young women who really believe that all that matters is how sexy they are and how they look, and even dumb themselves down. There is absolutely NO way to avoid that message as it is absolutely every direction you look.

And older women who panic at the idea of getting older, who are jealous of their daughters, and who start cutting themselves up because they see themselves as worthless.

I just don't think the ads that portray men as idiots are as damaging. Firstly, they are ONLY idiots in the realm of domestic chores, and secondly this ads are not pervasive enough to create a culture that sees all men as idiots. It just doesn't work that way.

As the article says, EVERY woman in the public eye is judged on her looks, be it in a positive or negative light.

Latchy

=Thaedydal;62331649
As some people might have trouble accessing the site you linked to

Actually I was one who couldn't .

Staying on Topic I dont think people like Katie Price do feminism any favours in that she is not only a marketing product but has just become a parody of herself, although I acccept her image is not one of your average ' normal ' womon .

Silverfish

Morlar wrote: »

That is crazy, I have worked in different companies and can't remember seeing anything like that.

Even in enviornments where there was one female in an otherwise all male floor and nothing remotely like that would be tolerated.

The closest thing was in la defense in france where at one building there were 2 female staff operating near the turnstiles at the main entrance to the building. They were both basically super models, who used a remote control thingie and clicked visitors who didn't have permie badges through the security doors.

The role they had was entirely based on their looks, I suppose it was more of a PR job than an actual role so it's arguable whether or not it was sexism on the part of their employers. As far as office staff the above behaviour in your post is not the norm in my view.

I can guarantee I didn't get my job based on my looks

We did challenge it with the boss at the time, we just said 'Look Bob, it's a bit unfair that the girls have to bring you in a coffee, and the guys don't. And that you call in the girls and tell them 'maybe they should wear some makeup or something'. It's just not on Bob'.

He was completely shocked. He ran off and spoke to some other manager ( we watched their face, it was :eek: like that) and he came back in, went to his office and closed the door. He then buzzed one of the lads and said 'John, bring in the reports ... and bring me a coffee!'

It was equality most of the way after that. He also had to make his own coffee.

Boston

Do I challenge casual sexism? I do mixed gender martial arts training. I get on very well with the women I think because I don't treat them like delicate flowers and show them the same respect I would anyone. I generally don't take into account someone's gender some women like that some women really dont.

Morlar

Silverfish wrote: »

It was equality most of the way after that. He also had to make his own coffee.

Well that is proper order that it was corrected.

At the same time maybe your boss should just make their own coffee full stop ? If it's a reciprocal thing then fine, if he also makes coffee for staff no problem but if its a one way thing emploee->boss then no way!

me_right_one

Homer Simpson does nothing good for men

Oryx

I work in a male environment too, but I have to say, I dont get the sexist remarks or behaviour mentioned here, simply because I wouldnt stand for it. Want coffee? >>> theres the machine. Call me babe, and I'll tell you to use my proper name, thanks. It doesnt make me a b1tch, it earns me respect. But at the same time I dont get to play the little girl card when it suits me either, which is where I think women are losing the sexist battle. I hate when women say to a man on one hand, 'you cant treat me that way, its sexist' and then complain bitterly when he doesnt hold the bloody door open or something.

The more dangerous sexism is the insidious type that we really dont notice, because we are so used to it. And it works for both sexes. Lazy cliches that men are stupid and lazy and drink beer, and women are neurotic sex toys (who never want sex - go figure). How do we stop it? We change ourselves. You dont want to be seen as a sex toy? Then stop buying into the culture that trains you to dress and behave like one. If men want to be seen as more than macho oafs, then stop doing things like referring to minding your own kids as 'babysitting'. We allow the stereotypes to continue both by not challenging other peoples bad behaviour, but also by continiuing with our own.

Silverfish

Oryx wrote: »

I work in a male environment too, but I have to say, I dont get the sexist remarks or behaviour mentioned here, simply because I wouldnt stand for it. Want coffee? >>> theres the machine. Call me babe, and I'll tell you to use my proper name, thanks. It doesnt make me a b1tch, it earns me respect. But at the same time I dont get to play the little girl card when it suits me either, which is where I think women are losing the sexist battle. I hate when women say to a man on one hand, 'you cant treat me that way, its sexist' and then complain bitterly when he doesnt hold the bloody door open or something.

Well, I only complain if they let it slam in my face or something. It's good manners to hold a door for anyone coming behind you, male, female or gender unassigned......

And I've never played the little girl card. I played the 'can I have a hand carrying these boxes' card when I had a broken toe, and it was flat out refused. If I want to work in a 'man's environment' I have to do my own work. That's when it came down to me not being a 'person with a broken toe' but 'some woman who can't do the job...because she's a woman'.

Nevyn

pikachucheeks

The Student's Union in my college were very like the guy you described from your college, LadyJ.

Every social they organised involved girls having to wear as little as possible. They'd do bizarre things like have beach parties and foam parties in November, when it was FREEZING and encourage girls to come out in bikinis.
They were also all over the media for having female strippers and mud wrestlers at RAG week last year - who actually got entirely naked and writhed all over each other.
Dragged the college's name through the dirt.

My class actually boycotted them. We were sick of their stupid socials, which most of us found very degrading and objectifying.
We just refused to go to events they organised and did our own thing.

This year, there's been a very definite change, due to the backlash from students which I'm very pleased about.

pickarooney

As some people might have trouble accessing the site you linked to

Actually I was one who couldn't.

Is everyone afraid to tell LadyJ that she ****ed up the link in her OP? I mean, she did, but not because she's a girl and girls are crap at computers

There's quite a lot of casual sexism where I work (both the company and the country in general) and it's usually directed towards women. I wouldn't say it's nasty or meant in a hurtful way, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't let it slide the way most of my female colleagues do. One girl used to get really riled up about it and would go out of her way to hide the fact that she was a girl when dealing with customers as she was convinced that nobody would take her seriously as a woman. She eventually quit over the stress it caused her.

Also, the bar staff in the two Irish pubs in town are all stunningly attractive girls and there's not one of them who knows how to pour a pint (to be fair, the owner has obviously not bothered his arse teaching them). I'm not sure who's the biggest loser there - men, women, customers, the poor, abused porter...

Silverfish

pickarooney wrote: »

Is everyone afraid to tell LadyJ that she ****ed up the link in her OP?

I was sortof afraid to. I fixed it, but now I'm going to run away.

Boston

pikachucheeks wrote: »

The Student's Union in my college were very like the guy you described from your college, LadyJ.

...

This year, there's been a very definite change, due to the backlash from students which I'm very pleased about.

Have you ever sexualised your body in an attempt to gain favour? Have you ever dressed prettier or worn a better brand of make up in an attempt to be more popular with people*? Have you ever modified any part of yourself in order to better fit in?

When you seriously look at the reasons why these woman "degrade" and "objectify" themselves in the way you described, you'll probably find its not a million miles the logic you apply to your own daily life.

Oryx wrote: »

I work in a male environment too, but I have to say, I dont get the sexist remarks or behaviour mentioned here, simply because I wouldnt stand for it. Want coffee? >>> theres the machine. Call me babe, and I'll tell you to use my proper name, thanks. It doesnt make me a b1tch, it earns me respect. But at the same time I dont get to play the little girl card when it suits me either, which is where I think women are losing the sexist battle. I hate when women say to a man on one hand, 'you cant treat me that way, its sexist' and then complain bitterly when he doesnt hold the bloody door open or something.

Agreed.

I knew two female engineers ( actually I know far more then that). One brilliant one useless. The brilliant one worked her ass off though college and proved herself every step of the way. The useless one giggles, twiddled her hair and battered her eyes in order to get through. Every single achievement the brilliant one made was undermined by the allowances and extra credit given to the useless one. I don't think I need to explain the point of this little story.

*I say people because frankly half the stuff I see women do with regards to "degrading" themselves is done to impress other women and nothing to do with men.

pikachucheeks

Boston wrote: »

Have you ever sexualised your body in an attempt to gain favour? Have you ever dressed prettier or worn a better brand of make up in an attempt to be more popular with people*? Have you ever modified any part of yourself in order to better fit in?

When you seriously look at the reasons why these woman "degrade" and "objectify" themselves in the way you described, you'll probably find its not a million miles the logic you apply to your own daily life.

I think every person is guilty of sexualising their body at some stage, or putting in extra effort with their appearance to be more popular, or more liked.

However, I personally wouldn't go to the extreme of wearing a bikini into a nightclub to do so.

The guys in my college running the students' union put up posters for things like the beach party and actually outlined the dress code as "girls = bikinis"

It's a bit crazy for them to be encouraging, or seemingly forcing people to wear clothing like that to a college party. Some people aren't comfortable with wearing such items, for a variety of reasons - and they shouldn't be made to feel like a prude, or an outcast, for not wanting to conform to the dress-code.

I just thought it was mad they got away with gearing all their parties around having women in sexy or tiny clothing ; school-girl socials, beach parties, foam parties.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini to a nightclub, fair enough - but she shouldn't be made to feel like she has to.

Boston

Isn't it great that we live in a country were people are free to decide what they want to wear and where they want to socialise? If I was to organise a party tomorrow with a certain dress code, you're free not to attend and I'd be free not to premise you entrance unless you met the code.

Of course you've a right to be pissed off at the student union because they're meant to be representative of the entire student body, not just a small section. But in general I'd see little wrong with another promoter doing what they did.

LadyJ

Silverfish wrote: »

I was sortof afraid to. I fixed it, but now I'm going to run away.

Lol, sorry. Got so into my rant I must have fúcked it up.

Dudess

LadyJ wrote: »

I am sometimes seen as a bit of a buzz-kill

That I find hard to believe. You're one of the best laughs on Boards.ie...

Kold

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I think every person is guilty of sexualising their body at some stage, or putting in extra effort with their appearance to be more popular, or more liked.

However, I personally wouldn't go to the extreme of wearing a bikini into a nightclub to do so.

The guys in my college running the students' union put up posters for things like the beach party and actually outlined the dress code as "girls = bikinis"

It's a bit crazy for them to be encouraging, or seemingly forcing people to wear clothing like that to a college party. Some people aren't comfortable with wearing such items, for a variety of reasons - and they shouldn't be made to feel like a prude, or an outcast, for not wanting to conform to the dress-code.

I just thought it was mad they got away with gearing all their parties around having women in sexy or tiny clothing ; school-girl socials, beach parties, foam parties.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini to a nightclub, fair enough - but she shouldn't be made to feel like she has to.

Really? You saw a poster for a college party and felt you had to go clubbing in a bikini...?

Boston

Kold wrote: »

Really? You saw a poster for a college party and felt you had to go clubbing in a bikini...?

If every poster you saw for events organised through the SU where specifically not applicable to you, wouldn't you feel left out? That your union wasn't adequately taking into account your desires?

Latchy

From my expierence if a womon of a certain age ,say 30 to early 40s hasn't got the hr glass figure then she has to work that extra bit hard to fit into and feel comfortable on the night in the dress she bought .( while asking herself , is this dress me / not me ? ) Then as a male , you will be asked 5 ,10, 20 times in a hr , do I look ok ? does it suit me ? etc which is as much about wanting a male point of view ( and dressing for him ) as it is to fit in and be one of the girls on the night .The real important issue as to who looks the best ( bitchyness ) is reserved for the ladies room later .I think some women can and will underplay or overplay their ' attractiveness ' depending on the situation and mood they are in .

If the cap fits on the night wear it :pac:

Kold

Boston wrote: »

If every poster you saw for events organised through the SU where specifically not applicable to you, wouldn't you feel left out? That your union wasn't adequately taking into account your desires?

None of them are.

pikachucheeks

Kold wrote: »

Really? You saw a poster for a college party and felt you had to go clubbing in a bikini...?

Given that a) there was a model on the poster wearing a bikini and b) the poster said "girls = bikinis" in the dresscode section, the message was there that the organisers wanted girls to show up in bikinis.

There was certainly a pressure there for women to adhere to a certain dresscode - which I find ridiculous -firstly because there was no dresscode advice for men, nor a picture of a man in skimpy swimwear on the poster.
Why were only women being 'told' what to wear?

weird

LadyJ wrote: »

Read this article the other day.

Reading some of those examples of casual sexism really pissed me off. And it's not just women, men get this crap too. I can't think of what the hell ad it was but it was something that made men look really stupid. It was on a while back. Maybe some cleaning product or something that made men look like domestic retards and women, domestic goddesses.

Anyway, do you (as women or as men) challenge casual sexism when you come across it? Does it bother you? Give me some everyday examples if you can think of them.

I went back to college last year and I was sickened by all of the bullshít. The ents officer was obviously just into organising events where women got next to naked all the time (school themed discos, mud wrestling, club nights where women in bikinis go around with snakes hanging around their necks, etc.) and he was always in the class advertising these events and saying stuff like "So girls, wear something skimpy and tight! Wha wha wha!"

It really was vile.

The main problem I found was that the girls would just sit there and giggle and then plan their outfits after they heard about these things. It was seen as uncool to give out about this kind of thing. I am sometimes seen as a bit of a buzz-kill but I just can't stand all of this crap. Feminism (and whatever it's male equivalent is) is something to be proud of and not something to be embarrassed by. For fúck sake, stand up for yourselves! It's not PC gone mad here, it's just plain respect that we should all be fighting for, man, woman or child. Don't let people make you feel ashamed for feeling this way. You don't have to roll over and conform to a way of life that is so cringe-worthy and humiliating.

Straight men like naked ladies, it's not sexism it's nature.

Silverfish

Just a reminder, this is a thread to discuss sexism and if we challenge sexism when we see it, not the 'dismiss sexism' thread.

Latchy

weird wrote: »

Straight men like naked ladies, it's not sexism it's nature.

Straight men also like ladies with a bit of cover ,semi naked . It adds to the mystery or imagination

weird

Latchy wrote: »

Straight men also like ladies with a bit of cover ,semi naked . It adds to the mystery or imagination

feck the "mystery" put it on front street.

Silverfish

Guys, if you want to take that to the Gentlemen's club or AH, please do so, but don't do it here, thanks.

Mrmoe

From my own experience I have never experienced true sexism where ever I have worked but I would challenge it if I did see it but thankfully it is rare enough. I think some things may be construed as sexism from an external point of view when in reality they are a reflection of the strengths/weaknesses of a gender. For example most of the girls I work with would be seen to be better at cleaning than most of the guys and they generally take it upon themselves/are expected to do it, where as the fellas would be expected to do other menial tasks that require heavy lifting/dirty messy work.

Eviledna

Casual Sexism is the perfect word for it. Casual.

In my line of work I see a range of different people, in different offices on a regular basis. The dynamic of a particular office is obvious and quickly determined, and I've seen "the girls" being designated the most sexist promotional work just because they are "the girls". I've lost count how often I've seen the females having make-the-coffee duties lumped in with every other duty they have. It doesn't seem to matter the pecking order, or the gender of the boss.
It would seem that the females are automatically designated this task, casually. It's not overtly questioned, because the task is not overtly assigned. It's subtle and subconcious.
I'm my own boss and I have a business partner who is male, and we work closely together. He would never dream of commanding me to make coffee, nor I him. We take it in turns. If I ever had employees, there would be a no-making-coffee for anyone else rule.

However I have been in the situation where a particular client requested that I "make the coffee for the lads seeing as I'm probably used to it", denoting that my partner would naturally have it made for him, despite the fact we are on the same level. I revelled in a curt reply, and added that I only make beverages when I want them, never when others do.

It was like I had just screamed PEERRRRIIIOOODDDDS! The reaction to confronting the sexism issue by the opposite sex is generally one of belittling, and intimidation. Now I'm no supermodel, but I have found that because I'm blonde and tall that people assume that I'm the vacant tea maker, the trophy partner (:rolleyes:), and treat me as such. It annoys me no end that no matter how hard I work, my male counterpart will almost always be given the credit for my work over me. In fairness to him, he was very well raised and the furthest from sexist you can get, but often when he corrects the assumption, the "ah look, he's defending her, shucks" look makes my blood boil.

SO how do we defend this without:
a) Looking like we have a chip on our shoulder
b) Sacrificing our femininity in order to be respected
c) or becoming paradoxically sexist by tarring all with the same brush?

Imo, obscuring sexism as a joke is a very strategic tactic on the part of the sexist, and should never be underestimated.

LadyJ

Was watching X-Factor recently and everytime a young guy who is even remotely good-looking and "well built" comes on, the female judges tell him to take off his shirt and act like drooling lunatics. I know the male judges make some comments/eyes at the "hot" women but if they were to take it as far as the girls there'd be outrage.

I find the behaviour of the female judges embarrassing and unacceptable and I'm surprised it's allowed tbh. Obviously this goes past casual but it was just a point I wanted to make. I can't tolerate double standards with sexism. It just makes me.....

shellyboo

Was at an exhibition yesterday, lots of samples of things. One man is handing out maps. I walk past, man hands me the map but doesn't let go.

Man: Is there any point in me givng this to you at all? Ha ha!
Me: Er, sorry?
Man: Will this just be a waste, giving this to you? Ha ha ha!
Me: Um... I'm not sure what you mean?
Man: Sure everybody knows it's a waste of time giving a woman a map! Ha ha ha ha!
Me: *jaw drops*

speedboatchase

LadyJ wrote: »

Was watching X-Factor recently and everytime a young guy who is even remotely good-looking and "well built" comes on, the female judges tell him to take off his shirt and act like drooling lunatics. I know the male judges make some comments/eyes at the "hot" women but if they were to take it as far as the girls there'd be outrage.

I find the behaviour of the female judges embarrassing and unacceptable and I'm surprised it's allowed tbh. Obviously this goes past casual but it was just a point I wanted to make. I can't tolerate double standards with sexism. It just makes me.....

Can you imagine the s***storm if Simon Cowell complimented a good looking female contestant and asked her to take off her top, and then she obliged?

Very good point. What's perhaps even a bit more embarrassing is that the female judges are "hot" and nowhere near as experienced, influential or respected as the male judges, who aren't particularly good looking but whose views are taken a lot more seriously. So basically they're really revelling in the stereotype as good looking but shallow female judges. Alesha Dixon is continuing the trend by actually replacing an older experienced female judge that actually knows what she's talking about on Strictly Come Dancing

Malari

shellyboo wrote: »

Was at an exhibition yesterday, lots of samples of things. One man is handing out maps. I walk past, man hands me the map but doesn't let go.

Man: Is there any point in me givng this to you at all? Ha ha!
Me: Er, sorry?
Man: Will this just be a waste, giving this to you? Ha ha ha!
Me: Um... I'm not sure what you mean?
Man: Sure everybody knows it's a waste of time giving a woman a map! Ha ha ha ha!
Me: *jaw drops*

Something tells me there's a reason he just got the "stand here and hand these out" job.

I am lucky to be in an exclusively female office, so don't encounter any sexism directly on a day-to-day basis.

But some customers still consider me "the girl" who just answers the phone, who insist on speaking to the manager. So I put them through to HER.

The only other stuff that really gets on my wick is the constant referral to guys being "allowed" go on holidays/out for a drink/etc by their girlfriends. As if every woman is a possesive, demonic control freak who gives day release passes, which in fact all it reflects is the weakness of the male, who either DOES feel like he needs permission for these things, or else doesn't have the kahunas to actually say to his friends that he doesn't want to go for a drink and blames the girlfriend for not "letting" him go! :mad:

shellyboo

Malari wrote: »

Something tells me there's a reason he just got the "stand here and hand these out" job.

He was the director of marketing. I had to speak to him later about editorial for the mag.

Boston

Eviledna wrote: »

SO how do we defend this without:
a) Looking like we have a chip on our shoulder
b) Sacrificing our femininity in order to be respected
c) or becoming paradoxically sexist by tarring all with the same brush?

Imo, obscuring sexism as a joke is a very strategic tactic on the part of the sexist, and should never be underestimated.

a)
Frankly some women like getting coffee for the men folk. This has perpetuate to such a degree that some people think making coffee is no big deal and all coffee and all women like to do it. If you have a problem with it then point it out to them in a claim polite manner. Exploding at someone over something they didn't realise was a big deal does make you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.

b)
What a load of cock. You don't have to sacrifice femininity to be respect by men, you just have to never hide behind it. About a month ago I had to carry a filling cabinate with drawers up three flights of stairs while the 3 women stood by and watched. They actually came looking for me to lift the thing as I was the only guy in the office. The notion of helping lift the heavy thing not being a male job never entered their heads. If I'd turned around and said, "theres 3 of yous lift it yourselfs", I'd be the arsehole?

c)
Some men in an attempt to be an alpha male in a group will put down women. The simplest and most effect counter measure is to undermine their alpha male status. Building up resentment against all men because some are fools is the the wrong approach.

shellyboo wrote: »

Was at an exhibition yesterday, lots of samples of things. One man is handing out maps. I walk past, man hands me the map but doesn't let go.

Man: Is there any point in me givng this to you at all? Ha ha!
Me: Er, sorry?
Man: Will this just be a waste, giving this to you? Ha ha ha!
Me: Um... I'm not sure what you mean?
Man: Sure everybody knows it's a waste of time giving a woman a map! Ha ha ha ha!
Me: *jaw drops*

And what did you say to him, did you say **** you, you arsehole? Or did you shrug it off and walk away leaving him to feel his behaviour was acceptable? Basic premiss of learning is negative feedback/reinforcement. When someone does something wrong if you dont tell them how will they know its wrong? If you're expecting them to read body language and mood, you don't know men too well.

Silverfish wrote: »

Just a reminder, this is a thread to discuss sexism and if we challenge sexism when we see it, not the 'dismiss sexism' thread.

Ok, another story (Cause I like stories). About two years ago it fell to me to nominate 3 students for a award. I selected the three students I felt had performed the best throughout the course and whose course work had been exceptional. The course co-ordinator signed off on my suggestions and the 3 were given monetary prizes plus kudos. At no point did it occur to me that two of the students were women nor that they were very pretty. When you're dealing with 160 students, 40 at a time, people become names on pieces of paper and the ones who stand out are the ones who do good work. The ironic thing was that I later found out the class attributed their success to the fact that they were women and felt I'd only put them forward on that basis. When ever challenged by someone in their re year about my apparent bias sexism I point out that the to girl where in the top 99% percentile of their class. I challenge sexism by not caring about your gender. On the flip side when I failed a girl for cheating and got a sobbing email from her, I made no special allowances.

I like the above story, because it shows that some people think I'm a radical feminist of sorts, oppressing man folk for the sisterhood.

shellyboo

Boston wrote: »

And what did you say to him, did you say **** you, you arsehole? Or did you shrug it off and walk away leaving him to feel his behaviour was acceptable? Basic premiss of learning is negative feedback/reinforcement. When someone does something wrong if you dont tell them how will they know its wrong? If you're expecting them to read body language and mood, you don't know men too well.

I never said I expected him to read anything... I was just relaying a story. No need to attack me for what you imagine I did/did not do.

What I did was raise my eyebrows, hand him back the map and walk away. Since he's a client, there's not much more I could have done without getting in trouble.

Boston

shellyboo wrote: »

I never said I expected him to read anything... I was just relaying a story. No need to attack me for what you imagine I did/did not do.

What I did was raise my eyebrows, hand him back the map and walk away. Since he's a client, there's not much more I could have done without getting in trouble.

0_o.

So you in no way challenged him or his sexist attitude? Do you think anyone ever has?