Christians and Israel (Christian answers only please)

PDN

I think it would be worthwhile to hear the views of some of the Christian posters from various denominations on the subject of Israel. I have labelled this thread as 'Christian Only' to deter trolls and to save me the bother of having to hand out infractions to those who would use the thread as an excuse to attack Christianity. However responsible non-Christians are free to participate in the thread if they wish to ask questions to understand better (rather than to attack) various Christian attitudes.

As I see it there are several different attitudes that individual Christians take when it comes to the nation of Israel:
1) Israel has been replaced by the Gentiles so we should not view Israel any differently than we should any other nation-state. (Replacement Theology)
2) We should pray for the people of Israel, believing that God still has a special purpose for the Jewish people as revealed in prophecy, but that does not require us to support Israel's physical claim to their Promised Land.
3) We should support Israel's right to possess the land they were promised in the Old Testament, but that does not require us to support every action that the Israeli State takes.
4) We should Support Israel in all circumstances no matter what, but should also pray for them to receive Christ in order to be saved.
5) We should support Israel in all circumstances and there is no need for Jews to receive Christ since they are already saved by virtue of being part of God's Chosen People. (Christian Zionism as espoused by the likes of John Hagee)

I would see these 5 positions as forming a line running from left to right. If you take position 1 then you are on the far left of the scale (Replacement Theology) - if you take position 5 then you are on the far right of the scale (Christian Zionism).
(Note: I am using the terms 'left' and 'right' as value-free, non-pejorative terms. So being 'left' is not necessarily any better than being 'right'. Our use of these terms is entirely abitrary anyway, originally referring to where deputies sat in relation to the President's chair during the Estates General leading up to the French Revolution.)

Don't feel boxed in by these options. Feel free to tell us if you fall somewhere in between them, or if you feel a different category altogether applies to you.

Turtwig

Right speaking as a non Christian here, but I think (1) is the most appropriate because, methinks, the Israel described in the bible was no where near as multicultural and diverse as it is today. Reckon that (2) also applies too for the Jews.

(3) I'm a little shaky over, in that, from what I know of the Bible, it does not specify beyond doubt what 'land' they are entitled to. (When I first read it I thought they were entitled to the world:o) Maybe, it is stated somewhere clearly, but as far as I know it only makes references to 'land' and 'nations'
Feel free to correct me..

(4) Sounds a little hypocritical...

(5) Makes sense, but I think it can only apply if Israel was Jewish. I don't think it is anymore..

antiskeptic

1. Replacement theology

Replaced in the sense that the body Christianity (and not Gentiles of any hue as your OP implies) has been revealed as the chosen people of God in the ultimate, spiritual sense. In the only sense that matters eternally. We are how people of 'the book' - being able to understand what it means, we are now the representitives of God to a lost world, we are now the ones who receive God's favour, we are now Gods' delight .. and so forth.

Soul Winner

Paul describes us Gentiles as a branch from a wild olive tree that has been grafted onto the trunk of a cultivate olive tree (the trunk of Abraham) and the Jews as a cultivated branch that has been cut off from the trunk of Abraham. He warns us not to boast over the cultivated branch that was cut off from its own trunk because if God can cut off the original branches which were part of the cultivate tree then he can cut off any wild branches brought in later on. With that in mind I believe that God has some work to do in re-grafting on the original branch and this will be done during the seven year tribulation period i.e. Jacob's trouble or Daniel's 70th week. And as such I think the western nations should support Israel when it comes to defending herself and to rebuke her for uncalled for cruel actions against her neighbors, but never side with her enemies no matter what. Not sure what camp that puts me in but there you go.

uprising

I would go with 1.
The so called jews of Israel are not the true Jews (from the tribe of Judah), they are Khazars and have no right whatsoever to have stolen the land, they are not semites.
Actually I believe there are more decendants of the tribe of Judah in Ireland than there are in Israel.

BrianCalgary

3 and part of 4. he Jews were promised the land and received it down to the day as prophesied, if you go by certain commenatators.

Quote PDN:
4) We should Support Israel in all circumstances no matter what, but should also pray for them to receive Christ in order to be saved.

I dont agree with supporting them is all circumstances but we need to pray for them.

They have a role to play in the battle to be played out in the future.

Iwasfrozen

There are two seperate issues here the Jewish religion and the state of Israel.

1. As regards to the Jewish religion they are dammned in the eyes of God for not accepting their "Messiha".

2. The state of Israel deserves no sympathy for their continuous opression of the native people.

Fanny Cradock

Good question.

I'd fall under option one.

While I'm open to correction on theological grounds, I'm of the belief that the time when the Israelites enjoyed unique favour with God has now passed. (Though I would be interested in hearing what prophecy you are referring to in choice number 2, PDN.) Even if I am wrong in this belief, I don't see that the nation of Israel is necessarily a continuation of this unique line.

Israel, it seems to me, is a nation built upon, and held together by, cultural Jewishness, not religious observance. After all, it is populated by so many transplanted nationals from all over the globe that I wonder how it could be considered theologically special. I've seen stats that range from the low teens to 70% for Jews who consider themselves "secular" Jews. If there is any unique divine link between God and man surely it would be associated with unique groups existing within Israel (but not exclusive to it) and not the nation of Israel itself.

Just a thought!

JimiTime

I'll take my political hat off for this. I don't think the modern State of Israel has any signifigance from a religious perspective. Though it truly is a remarkable story, its rise to power etc. I have looked at biblical prophecy at times and tried to read the modern state of Israel into it. I couldn't though. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some signifigance to it, but I presently don't see it. So I would currently fall under option 1. Gods Israel is now a spiritual State, the modern day Israel is irrelevant in that, like everywhere else, it has both the saved and the unsaved in it. Thats my current understanding.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm a little shaky over, in that, from what I know of the Bible, it does not specify beyond doubt what 'land' they are entitled to. (When I first read it I thought they were entitled to the world:o) Maybe, it is stated somewhere clearly, but as far as I know it only makes references to 'land' and 'nations'
Feel free to correct me..

According to Genesis 15:18-21 the Promised Land was to extend from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates.

Now, this only gives the east-west dimensions of the land (and conceivably could refer to a tributary of the Nile rather than to the main body of the river itself). However, even at its most modest interpretation this would still include bits of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. It would certainly include Gaza and the West Bank.

philologos

Israel hasn't been replaced by the Gentiles, a remnant of Jews will believe in Jesus Christ and join the faith, until eventually the full number of Israel (which isn't all Jews) join the faith according to Paul in Romans ch 11.

As for the diagram that PDN provided, the borders of Eretz Y'Israel actually differ throughout different points of the Bible:

Genesis 15: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Israel_map.jpg
Numbers and Ezekiel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Land_of_Israel.jpg

King Davids Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Davids-kingdom_with_captions_specifiying_vassal_kingdoms-derivative-work.jpg

Biblical Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea-Corrected.png

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote: »

Israel hasn't been replaced by the Gentiles, a remnant of Jews will believe in Jesus Christ and join the faith, until eventually the full number of Israel (which isn't all Jews) join the faith according to Paul in Romans ch 11.

I agree with this. Its more that Israel is now a spiritual state. I am more of the thinking that to be a Jew is no more special than being a gentile. Is that what the first point meant PDN? That Jews wont be saved as they've been replaced? I thought by 'replaced', you meant that the gift that they had, has been bestowed upon the gentiles also by virtue of Christ. In other words, they are no longer 'Gods people' by virtue of their blood, but rather Gods people are now those who are in the blood of the Lamb. This can be Jew or Gentile alike. Thats my current understanding. Again though, I see no theological signifigance to the modern state of Israel.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

I think it would be worthwhile to hear the views of some of the Christian posters from various denominations on the subject of Israel. I have labelled this thread as 'Christian Only' to deter trolls and to save me the bother of having to hand out infractions to those who would use the thread as an excuse to attack Christianity. However responsible non-Christians are free to participate in the thread if they wish to ask questions to understand better (rather than to attack) various Christian attitudes.

As I see it there are several different attitudes that individual Christians take when it comes to the nation of Israel:
1) Israel has been replaced by the Gentiles so we should not view Israel any differently than we should any other nation-state. (Replacement Theology)
2) We should pray for the people of Israel, believing that God still has a special purpose for the Jewish people as revealed in prophecy, but that does not require us to support Israel's physical claim to their Promised Land.
3) We should support Israel's right to possess the land they were promised in the Old Testament, but that does not require us to support every action that the Israeli State takes.
4) We should Support Israel in all circumstances no matter what, but should also pray for them to receive Christ in order to be saved.
5) We should support Israel in all circumstances and there is no need for Jews to receive Christ since they are already saved by virtue of being part of God's Chosen People. (Christian Zionism as espoused by the likes of John Hagee)

I would see these 5 positions as forming a line running from left to right. If you take position 1 then you are on the far left of the scale (Replacement Theology) - if you take position 5 then you are on the far right of the scale (Christian Zionism).
(Note: I am using the terms 'left' and 'right' as value-free, non-pejorative terms. So being 'left' is not necessarily any better than being 'right'. Our use of these terms is entirely abitrary anyway, originally referring to where deputies sat in relation to the President's chair during the Estates General leading up to the French Revolution.)

Don't feel boxed in by these options. Feel free to tell us if you fall somewhere in between them, or if you feel a different category altogether applies to you.

The closest to my position is 2.

It is a mistake to say the Gentiles have replaced the nation of Israel. The mixed nation of believers and unbelievers that was OT Israel has been replaced by the Church, the believers of Israel and of the Gentiles. They are the true Israel. The believing Gentiles have been brought into believing Israel and the unbelieving Jews thrown out. The Israel of God continues.

One day God will convert the unbelieving nation and add them back into the Church.

As to what support we ought to give the State of Israel now - only that which is due any nation in its right to exist in peace. They cannot claim the land which God gave them, for He threw them out for their unbelief. It must be Him who puts them back in if we are to support their right to all the land.

postcynical

PDN wrote: »

5) We should support Israel in all circumstances and there is no need for Jews to receive Christ since they are already saved by virtue of being part of God's Chosen People. (Christian Zionism as espoused by the likes of John Hagee)

I'd never heard this position articulated before but it's closest to my own. I don't know many Jews but I'm glad they haven't all become Christians (or ignorant of their heritage) and I'm sure they still have a major role to play in the story of salvation. We are blessed that we have a continuous link with the past in this remarkable tribe of people.

I don't know how to square it with John 14:6, but it's not really one for me to worry about.

John 14:6 wrote:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Don't feel boxed in by these options. Feel free to tell us if you fall somewhere in between them, or if you feel a different category altogether applies to you.

Funnily enough my political views on Israel are completely uncoloured by religion. Sometimes at Mass there are visiting priests from the Holy Land who ask us to pray for the Christian churches there, as they are struggling severely under the Israeli government's heavy handed rulership. I guess that's because most Christians in the Holy Land are Arabs (except for pilgrims of course). There's no box could really sum up anybody's position on this issue but your broad strokes are quite good.

uprising

Revelation 2:9-10 (King James Version)



9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:9 (King James Version)


9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

studiorat

The irony if you can call it that, is that the Christian communities in Palestine are being irreversably destroyed by the conflict. Places like Bethlehem and Nasareth which once had huge Christian communities and are being decimated by the expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.(Bernard Sabella, Bethlehem University, Palestine)

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

Kind of like FC stated. Peace in the area can only happen if the national aspirations of each group are taken into account as well as their religious aspirations.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

2) We should pray for the people of Israel, believing that God still has a special purpose for the Jewish people as revealed in prophecy, but that does not require us to support Israel's physical claim to their Promised Land.

Definitely no. 2 for me.
I think we should pray for the people of Israel due to ongoing conflict but I don't understand Christians who are obsessed with converting Jews. God will return when he's ready and no Christian on earth can hurry this up by evangelising. Also no amount of fighting for this land will speed God's return so I can't, on these grounds, support physical conflict.

wolfsbane

Splendour wrote: »

Definitely no. 2 for me.
I think we should pray for the people of Israel due to ongoing conflict but I don't understand Christians who are obsessed with converting Jews. God will return when he's ready and no Christian on earth can hurry this up by evangelising.

Sounds awfully like the rebuke to William Carey,
"Sit down, young man, sit down and be still. When God wants to convert the heathen, He will do it without consulting either you or me."

But God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means of converting the elect - and commissioned the Church with the task. All the world means Jew and Gentile.

Maybe you meant something different?

TravelJunkie

Somewhere between 2 and 3.

God did promise them the land. Now, as to how they are going to 'possess the land' within God's will, I have no idea.

alfranken

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Somewhere between 2 and 3.

God did promise them the land. Now, as to how they are going to 'possess the land' within God's will, I have no idea.

Tough one alright, God will know when enough people have died.

philologos

studiorat: While this view is welcome, the person you have quoted doesn't seem to be taking into account that not only do Christians in the Palestinian territories face issue from settlements, but they also face issues from Islamic extremism.

PDN

Jakkass wrote: »

studiorat: While this view is welcome, the person you have quoted doesn't seem to be taking into account that not only do Christians in the Palestinian territories face issue from settlements, but they also face issues from Islamic extremism.

Indeed. The Christians in Palestine are caught between a rock and a hard place.

studiorat

PDN wrote: »

Indeed. The Christians in Palestine are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Modern history would show that there was a good relationship between Christians and Muslims in Palestine, they lived in the same areas day to day. The Christians on the most part choose to emigrate, they are in a socio-economic position to do so, more so than the a majority of Muslims.

philologos

Churches have been firebombed across the Palestinian territories, and people who have converted to Christianity in that region such as Masab Youcef have been threatened with death. Hostility is also a reason why people would leave.