Lisbon's Goal: to elect an EU president

pog it

Surely this is one of the main reasons that the Lisbon Treaty has been set up. We are getting a litany of treaties- Mastricht, Nice and now Lisbon and they are all leading to the obvious.

If ratified by all member states a president of the EU will be created and a nice EU Council of ministers which our Taoiseach will be I'm sure, very happy to join. And no wonder FG and Labour want in now. They know there is a high chance that FF will lose the next election and they will gain the extra powers to be gleaned for themselves.

The other issues are all part and parcel yes of this series of treaties which IS leading to a more unified EU government. Clearly these boys (and girls) want more and more power and this is a golden ticket for them. They are probably planning the next treaty.

It is an insult to us to be asked to vote twice- it is 100% undemocratic and if the Irish people vote yes I will be ashamed to be Irish.

Please do not fall for this. We will still be a member of the EU even if we vote No, it does not take that away, so comparisons with Iceland are ridiculous. If you would like Cowen to get this nice seat in the Council and if you would like to see Sarkozy or Barrasso as EU President-- that will be what your Yes vote will achieve. That is their Goal. The rest of us are just pawns.

Daftendirekt

There is no President of the EU, and there won't be after Lisbon.

And there already is a Council of Ministers. I don't know what point you're trying to make here?

Dinner

Eh.. No.

It's not an EU President. Thats a term used by no campaigners to scare people. It's 'President of the European Council' and it already exists. At the moment there is a rotating system in place where the position rotates between the head of each EU country every 6 months.

What Lisbon does is increase the term to 2.5 years (with a 2 term maximum). The European Council will then elect somebody to the position. Currently whoever is President of the Council has to both run the council and their own country. This move will allow an individual to concentrate full time on the runnings of the Council.



I think you still have a bit of reading up to do before Friday.

Tarobot

pog it wrote: »

Surely this is one of the main reasons that the Lisbon Treaty has been set up. We are getting a litany of treaties- Mastricht, Nice and now Lisbon and they are all leading to the obvious.

Oh gosh, yes. The only reason 27 member states have been chasing this reform treaty for 8 years so they can call someone the 'President of the EU'.

pog it wrote: »

If ratified by all member states a president of the EU will be created and a nice EU Council of ministers which our Taoiseach will be I'm sure, very happy to join. And no wonder FG and Labour want in now. They know there is a high chance that FF will lose the next election and they will gain the extra powers to be gleaned for themselves.

What utter, utter nonsense. The position already exists, it will simply be renamed, the length of time in the role extended and the person will not be allowed to hold any executive powers. The person in question is actually a Chairman but French does not have that word, so the word President is used.

pog it wrote: »

It is an insult to us to be asked to vote twice- it is 100% undemocratic and if the Irish people vote yes I will be ashamed to be Irish.

That's funny because I'm Irish, proud to be so and am not insulted to be asked twice. Are you in favour of divorce? If we weren't allowed to vote twice we would still not have divorce in this country.

The rest of your post is paranoid scaremongering, ironically enough.

marco_polo

We already have a President of the European Council and our Taoiseach has a seat on it and has since 1973 so there is nothing new to see here. Another interesting fact is that no further powers have been granted to either the Council or its President in the Lisbon Treaty. If I am mistaken feel free to point out the relevant articles in the treaty that I have missed.

Sarkosy has even held this position once before and looking around there does not seem to have been any devesatating consequences.

pog it

Yes of course they want the President to run Council, that is, EU affairs full time! It's a huge step up and let's face it they have been building up to it.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

Yes of course they want the President to run Council, that is, EU affairs full time! It's a huge step up and let's face it they have been building up to it.

Who are 'they'? What is your point exactly??

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Yes of course they want the President to run Council, that is, EU affairs full time! It's a huge step up and let's face it they have been building up to it.

No, it's not a huge step up. It's a move to make the EU more efficient.

Do you accept that you were wrong about the 'EU President'?

pog it

Wow.

I can see what I am up against here.

So far every one of you who have responded have links to Pro-Lisbon and 'Reasons to vote Yes' in your signatures.

In your signatures.... wow.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Wow.

I can see what I am up against here.

So far every one of you who have responded have links to Pro-Lisbon and 'Reasons to vote Yes' in your signatures.

In your signatures.... wow.

I don't. Another incorrect assertion.

BlitzKrieg

and they will gain the extra powers to be gleaned for themselves.

no executive powers, no legaslation power and no vote on any institution (except the same vote everyone of the EU gets to elect an mep).

wow that president sure has alot of powers.


And the council of ministers is just a rename for the council of european union.

They got sick of people getting the european council, council of europe and the council of european union mixed up.

Was a nightmare for the post office I can tell ya.

pog it

Dinner wrote: »

No, it's not a huge step up. It's a move to make the EU more efficient.

Do you accept that you were wrong about the 'EU President'?

Where was I wrong? Lisbon will achieve a proper, as in full time, devoted President for EU affairs.

That is a FIRST.

'More efficient'. So you bought it :rolleyes:

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Yes of course they want the President to run Council, that is, EU affairs full time! It's a huge step up and let's face it they have been building up to it.

Of course they would want the President to run the Council, after all it has been working very well for the best part of half a century now.


Oh and what are the new powers that have been gleaned by the way?

pog it

Daftendirkt and Tarobot come on very strong in their signatures re. Say Yes to Lisbon. Forgive me for being overwhelmed and getting the impression that you had it on yours Dinner.

Anyway I am 100% happy with my assessment.

Up to others to make theirs.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Where was I wrong? Lisbon will achieve a proper, as in full time, devoted President for EU affairs.

That is a FIRST.

'More efficient'. So you bought it :rolleyes:

You said "A president of the EU will be created" - It's not president of the EU it's President of the European Council and it already exists.

You said "which our Taoiseach will be I'm sure, very happy to join" he's already a member of the European Council along with 26 other Heads.

Tarobot

pog it wrote: »

Anyway I am 100% happy with my assessment.

I don't see how you could be - it's been clearly proven to be incorrect.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Daftendirkt and Tarobot come on very strong in their signatures re. Say Yes to Lisbon. Forgive me for being overwhelmed and getting the impression that you had it on yours Dinner.

Anyway I am 100% happy with my assessment.

Up to others to make theirs.

I am not happy with your explaination as to what the new powers that have been 'gleaned' by the President of the European Council.

BlitzKrieg

Where was I wrong? Lisbon will achieve a proper, as in full time, devoted President for EU affairs.

perhaps you could elaborate what his powers and responsibilities will be then?

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

Daftendirkt and Tarobot come on very strong in their signatures re. Say Yes to Lisbon. Forgive me for being overwhelmed and getting the impression that you had it on yours Dinner.

Anyway I am 100% happy with my assessment.

Up to others to make theirs.

How can you be 100% happy?? You said that Lisbon will bring in an EU President and an EU Council of Ministers.

No such thing as an 'EU President' in Lisbon and the Council of Ministers has been in existence since the very beginning of the EU back in the 50's!!

Are you sure you're still happy??

BTW I don't have any sigs about pro Lisbon!

View

pog it wrote: »

Where was I wrong? Lisbon will achieve a proper, as in full time, devoted President for EU affairs.

That is a FIRST.

'More efficient'. So you bought it :rolleyes:

It is hardly a first. There already are several Presidents responsible for EU affairs. The President of the European Parliament, the President of the European Commission, the President of the European Court of Justice, the President of the European Court of Auditors...

Having another full-time President isn't going to be all that Earth shattering.

pog it

Tarobot wrote: »

I don't see how you could be - it's been clearly proven to be incorrect.

Tarobot. I have many interests and I post on Boards on a wide range of these interests. I don't post on politics and if you care to do so you will see from my 600+ posts that is the case.

I find it strange that you have joined only this month, you have racked up 70 odd posts already and they are ALL on Lisbon. And your signature is even all about how good a Yes vote is.

I find that highly interesting.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Tarobot. I have many interests and I post on Boards on a wide range of these interests. I don't post on politics and if you care to do so you will see from my 600+ posts that is the case.

I find it strange that you have joined only this month, you have racked up 70 odd posts already and they are ALL on Lisbon. And your signature is even all about how good a Yes vote is.

I find that highly interesting.

Going to answer the questions posed?

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Tarobot. I have many interests and I post on Boards on a wide range of these interests. I don't post on politics and if you care to do so you will see from my 600+ posts that is the case.

I find it strange that you have joined only this month, you have racked up 70 odd posts already and they are ALL on Lisbon. And your signature is even all about how good a Yes vote is.

I find that highly interesting.

Do you feel like addressing the point or would you rather just go around looking at everybody's join date and post count?

pog it

I have already addressed the comments of the Yes campaigners who are are working their stuff here. Hope you're getting something for it God love ye.

Good luck on Friday

Let's just hope that the majority in this country will have the same sense they had the LAST time we voted No!

Oíche mhaith.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

I have already addressed the comments of the Yes campaigners who are are working their stuff here. Hope you're getting something for it God love ye.

Good luck on Friday

Let's just hope that the majority in this country will have the same sense they had the LAST time we voted No!

Oíche mhaith.

So you don't feel like addressing the points put to you? Thats fine. Just another hit and run poster who leaves when their points have been disproven.

Oíche mhaith.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

I have already addressed the comments of the Yes campaigners who are are working their stuff here. Hope you're getting something for it God love ye.

Good luck on Friday

Let's just hope that the majority in this country will have the same sense they had the LAST time we voted No!

Oíche mhaith.

Typical of the No campaign. All mis-representations and mis-information but when faced with the actual truth of what is in the Treaty they have no answer at all and retreat into the shadows

pog it

Dinner wrote: »

Do you feel like addressing the point or would you rather just go around looking at everybody's join date and post count?

Eh.. join date, post count relative to CONTENT and topic of posts i.e 100% on Lisbon and hacking down on No voters.

That's not going to gain Tarabot any Yes voters, despite what he has claimed in other posts about campaigning for a Yes and successfully persuading at least 20 on his first day out to vote Yes!

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

Eh.. join date, post count relative to CONTENT and topic of posts i.e 100% on Lisbon and hacking down on No voters.

That's not going to gain Tarabot any Yes voters, despite what he has claimed in other posts about campaigning for a Yes and successfully persuading at least 20 on his first day out to vote Yes!

You clearly have no answer for the points put to you as you realise you were incorrect. Oíche mhaith!

pog it

My last word on this is to address your comments about retreating into the shadows. Eh it's 1.15am-- late enough when you are up at 8am wouldn't you say, but I was studying and pop in to Boards for a break and popped in here for the first time- not involved in any campaigning unlike some people who have replied to my posts.

And I have addressed your points. Lisbon is an escalation of power for the EU President who will be wholly focussed on the running of the EU. That to me = creating a new EU President, tweak as you like about it only going from part-time to full-time, but that is a very meaningful change.

And like I said already, it is the newest in the series of treaties which adds in its load and brings on more centralisation of politics in Europe. Give me any spiel you like, but I'm afraid I won't buy it. I am looking at the BIGGER picture and not going to make the mistake of isolating Lisbon like lot of people are going to do.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Eh.. join date, post count relative to CONTENT and topic of posts i.e 100% on Lisbon and hacking down on No voters.

That's not going to gain Tarabot any Yes voters, despite what he has claimed in other posts about campaigning for a Yes and successfully persuading at least 20 on his first day out to vote Yes!

Thank you and goodnight to you too, this has been a most useful thread in demonstrating the fact that no new position has been created for President of the European Council. And further that there has been no change to the scope of the role with the exception of the length of the term and the mode of appointment.

BlitzKrieg

pog it wrote: »

Eh.. join date, post count relative to CONTENT and topic of posts i.e 100% on Lisbon and hacking down on No voters.

what about me?

lisbon barely makes up 5% of the stuff I have talked about on Boards.


Are you gonna answer my question or are you gonna pretend I am some long term yes campaign shill planted before even the nice treaty with intent of devalueing your post.

What new powers does Lisbon give the President of the European Council?

pog it

marco_polo wrote: »

Thank you and goodnight to you too, this has been a most useful thread in demonstrating the fact that no new position has been created for President of the European Council. And further that there has been no change to the scope of the role with the exception of the length of the term and the mode of appointment.

No thank you You have tried to make light of the changes that pertain to the EU President but I and I'm sure others won't buy it that easily as part-time to full-time= Escalation and increase in power for that President.
That to me equates to a new president as hitherto it had been part-time and therefore not as powerful a position.

night night.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

My last word on this is to address your comments about retreating into the shadows. Eh it's 1.15am-- late enough when you are up at 8am wouldn't you say, but I was studying and pop in to Boards for a break and popped in here for the first time- not involved in any campaigning unlike some people who have replied to my posts.

And I have addressed your points. Lisbon is an escalation of power for the EU President who will be wholly focussed on the running of the EU. That to me = creating a new EU President, tweak as you like about it only going from part-time to full-time, but that is a very meaningful change.

And like I said already, it is the newest in the series of treaties which adds in its load and brings on more centralisation of politics in Europe. Give me any spiel you like, but I'm afraid I won't buy it. I am looking at the BIGGER picture and not going to make the mistake of isolating Lisbon like lot of people are going to do.

I am not involved in any campaign but you sir are clearly mis-representing the facts. First of all there is no such thing as the EU President - it is called President of the European Council and the position has been in existence for decades. Bertie Ahern was the President of the European Council a few years ago and a Swedish gentleman called Fredrik Reinfeldt is the current President. What Lisbon does is increase the term to 2.5 years from current 6 months at a time and the person appointed will not be a member state head of Government as is the case at present. It is not feasible gong forward for someone to be the President of the European Council and their country's Prime Minister at the same time.

There is no escalation of power as you put it. Lisbon does no confer any new powers on the President of the European Council - they are in effect the charmain of the Council. But please feel free to point out the article in the Treaty that gives this new mystery 'EU President' loads of power!?

Plus the council of ministers has been in existence for over 50 years and is not something new under Lisbon.

pog it

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

what about me?

lisbon barely makes up 5% of the stuff I have talked about on Boards.


Are you gonna answer my question or are you gonna pretend I am some long term yes campaign shill planted before even the nice treaty with intent of devalueing your post.

What new powers does Lisbon give the President of the European Council?

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

stop it really. Please show us where in the Lisbon Treaty this new mystery 'EU President' (actually called President of the European Council) will get new powers??

The President of the European Council will be appointed by the 27 Heads of Government who are ALL elected by the people in their respective countries. Not undemocratic in my view.

pog it

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

It's all very alarming and very very f***KEd up.

Please people do not fall for it. We will still be a member of the EU if we vote No so don't let them make a fool and pawn of you.

BlitzKrieg

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

thats funny...

Cause I have a list of them right here:

If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission.

A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties. The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The President of the Council and the Commission shall report to the European Parliament on the results of multilateral surveillance. The President of the Council may be invited to appear before the competent committee of the European Parliament if the Council has made its recommendations public.

Where a Member State is in difficulties or is seriously threatened with severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences beyond its control, the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, may grant, under certain conditions, Union financial assistance to the Member State concerned. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decision taken.

As long as a Member State fails to comply with a decision taken in accordance with paragraph 9, the Council may decide to apply or, as the case may be, intensify one or more of the following measures.....The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decisions taken.

The Council shall, on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Central Bank and the Committee referred to in this Article, lay down detailed provisions concerning the composition of the Economic and Financial Committee. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of such a decision.

The Council may, acting by a qualified majority either on a recommendation from the European Central Bank or on a recommendation from the Commission, and after consulting the European Central Bank, in an endeavour to reach a consensus consistent with the objective of price stability, adopt, adjust or abandon the central rates of the euro within the exchange-rate system. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the adoption, adjustment or abandonment of the euro central rates.

Where the European Council decides by vote, its President and the President of the Commission shall not take part in the vote.

The Council shall meet when convened by its President on his own initiative or at the request of one of its Members or of the Commission.

A vacancy caused by resignation, compulsory retirement or death shall be filled for the remainder of the member’s term of office by a new member of the same nationality appointed by the Council, by common accord with the President of the Commission, after consulting the European Parliament and in accordance with the criteria set out in the second subparagraph of Article 9d(3) of the Treaty on European Union

The Council may, acting unanimously on a proposal from the President of the Commission, decide that such a vacancy need not be filled, in particular when the remainder of the member’s term of office is short.

The President of the Council and a member of the Commission may participate, without having the right to vote, in meetings of the Governing Council of the European Central Bank. The President of the Council may submit a motion for deliberation to the Governing Council of the European Central Bank.

If, within three months of receiving the European Parliament’s amendments, the Council, acting by a qualified majority: (a) approves all those amendments, the act in question shall be deemed to have been adopted; (b) does not approve all the amendments, the President of the Council, in agreement with the President of the European Parliament, shall within six weeks convene a meeting of the Conciliation Committee.

Legislative acts adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure shall be signed by the President of the European Parliament and by the President of the Council.

If, within forty-two days of such communication, the European Parliament: (a) approves the position of the Council, the budget shall be adopted; (b) has not taken a decision, the budget shall be deemed to have been adopted; (c) adopts amendments by a majority of its component members, the amended draft shall be forwarded to the Council and to the Commission. The President of the European Parliament, in agreement with the President of the Council, shall immediately convene a meeting of the Conciliation Committee. However, if within ten days of the draft being forwarded the Council informs the European Parliament that it has approved all its amendments, the Conciliation Committee shall not meet.

Regular meetings between the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission shall be convened, on the initiative of the Commission, under the budgetary procedures referred to in this Chapter. The Presidents shall take all the necessary steps to promote consultation and the reconciliation of the positions of the institutions over which they preside in order to facilitate the implementation of this Title.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

the powers were outlined in the prior treaties, you can see them if you use the consolidated version of lisbon. You can find them at the bottom of article 15 of the treaty of the european union though.

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Considering again he has no executive power, no legaslative power and no vote on the council why waste taxpayers money to run mulitiple elections across the EU?

Again seriously undemocratic.


What more info do you want from me on this?

Not much, just a bit of effort to research your points.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

We know exactly what his role willl be because it is right there in plain black and white in the TEU.

Where are you getting yor information that his powers have not yet been decided?

The European Council shall elect its President, by a qualified majority, for a term of two and a half years, renewable once. In the event of an impediment or serious misconduct, the European Council can end the President’s term of office in accordance with the same procedure.

6. The President of the European Council:

(a) shall chair it and drive forward its work;

(b) shall ensure the preparation and continuity of the work of the European Council in cooperation with the President of the Commission, and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council;

(c) shall endeavour to facilitate cohesion and consensus within the European Council;

(d) shall present a report to the European Parliament after each of the meetings of the European Council.

The President of the European Council shall, at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy, without prejudice to the powers of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

As already stated President of the European Councill has been in existence for decades. This Treaty changes how they are appointed and how long they are in office.

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

As stated President of the European Council will be elected by the 27 Heads of Government of EU member states - all of whom have been directly elected by the people in their respective countries - not undemocratic

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

No new powers are being given under Lisbon so I don't know where you get this from - please provide us with some sources

Please show us where the new powers are coming from???

pog it

That text does not outline in full detail the full range of powers this EU president will have. Read the text- it is all general and superficial for now. The detail only happens after ratification.

And you may personally feel it over the top and unnecessary for all member states to hold a referendum to vote on who the President of the European Council (EU AFFAIRS) will be but I do. I'm proud of this country and I'm not handing one bit of its governance over to a centralised EU government, sceidín go fóidín, fóidin go fód.

Anyway this is but ONE of the reasons I am voting No in two days time.

I welcome the news of the Czech move.

Have you heard?

pog it

RE. Who votes in this President, I am not happy that Brian Cowen has the power on behalf of Ireland to make his vote as to who gets awarded the Presidency!

He is NOT even an elected Taoiseach. It's a joke that he has responsibility to vote for me and act on my behalf. It's embarrassing we have him as Taoiseach.

I'd prefer the collective will and intelligence of all of Europe to have a say on WHO this president is.

BlitzKrieg

once again.

he has no executive powers, no legaslative powers and not voting power.

These are not elements that can be *added in* after the treaty is ratified, that is impossible as any elements that extends or withdraws powers from the institution requires constitutional ratification (meaning a referendum in ireland's case).

So those "general and superficial" powers are the limits of his powers under Lisbon. They cant be extended into new areas that requires ratification.

There is no maybe or buts about this, its how it works. If we could give the President of the european council new powers without ratification then there is no point to the Lisbon referendum because all the changes could be made without ratification.

heyjude

Tarobot wrote: »

That's funny because I'm Irish, proud to be so and am not insulted to be asked twice. Are you in favour of divorce? If we weren't allowed to vote twice we would still not have divorce in this country.

At the time of the first referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government said they would respect the decision of the people. Yet surely nobody would deny that the decision to hold another referendum was taken shortly afterwards, even if it took months for the government to actually admit it. Comparing the decision to hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty to the decision to hold a second referendum on divorce, is like comparing apples and oranges. The first Lisbon Treaty referendum was held on 12th June 2008, the second will be held on 2nd October 2009, just 15 months later and the intention to hold a second vote was clear, shortly after the first vote was rejected. The first divorce referendum was held on 26th June 1986, the second divorce vote was held on 24th November 1995, nearly 113 months(9+ years) later and given the long delay, there clearly was no immediate intention following the initial rejection of divorce to plan for another vote. Immediately setting plans in motion for another vote is not respecting the decision of the people, its doing whatever it takes to get what you want.

Scofflaw

heyjude wrote: »

At the time of the first referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government said they would respect the decision of the people. Yet surely nobody would deny that the decision to hold another referendum was taken shortly afterwards, even if it took months for the government to actually admit it. Comparing the decision to hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty to the decision to hold a second referendum on divorce, is like comparing apples and oranges. The first Lisbon Treaty referendum was held on 12th June 2008, the second will be held on 2nd October 2009, just 15 months later and the intention to hold a second vote was clear, shortly after the first vote was rejected. The first divorce referendum was held on 26th June 1986, the second divorce vote was held on 24th November 1995, nearly 113 months(9+ years) later and given the long delay, there clearly was no immediate intention following the initial rejection of divorce to plan for another vote. Immediately setting plans in motion for another vote is not respecting the decision of the people, its doing whatever it takes to get what you want.

The only requirement from a referendum vote is either (a) an amendment of the Constitution, or (b), no amendment of the Constitution. The idea that a referendum vote should set the result in stone for all time is obviously undemocratic - so it's only a question of how long you feel should elapse between referendums on the same issue, which is fundamentally a matter of personal opinion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

8-10

This issue is a bit ridiculous, but there's been lots of excellent posts since then so maybe the thread has been useful in informing people exactly what the position does and how it has certainly no negative consequences unless you think mysterious powers will emerge as the first stage to some sort of One World Government. I'm very curious to hear speculation on what these mystery powers will be? The role of President of the European Council is to act as chair and to drive forward the work of the European Council, facilitating cohesion and consensus; to ensure the preparation and continuity of the European Council’s work, but in co-operation with the President of the Commission and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council; and, at his or her level, to ensure the external representation of the Union’s Common Foreign and Security Policy. Where there is a vote, only Heads of State can participate.

I think you mean to post this in the Conspiratory Theories forum as that is exactly what it is. You believe that this position is to be given power as an overall 'EU President'? What can he/she set legislation and force member states to do his/her bidding? It's really not some sort of new governance out of nowhere, the Council will operate the same way as it does now! It's just chaired differently, and more efficently.

I'm torn between thinking you don't understand the treaty in respect to this or thinking you've got this conspiracy agenda that you're trying to fit this into as an argument.

It's as plain and simple as many of the (much better) posts before mine, particularly BlitzKrieg @ 2:07.

(and I have slightly less posts than you and this is maybe my 2nd on Lisbon? I don't know? And I don't have a sig or avatar or relationship with any Yes organisations)

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

RE. Who votes in this President, I am not happy that Brian Cowen has the power on behalf of Ireland to make his vote as to who gets awarded the Presidency!

He is NOT even an elected Taoiseach. It's a joke that he has responsibility to vote for me and act on my behalf. It's embarrassing we have him as Taoiseach.

I'd prefer the collective will and intelligence of all of Europe to have a say on WHO this president is.

:eek: Maybe you should inform yourself a bit better before making anymore blatantly incorrect assertions. You may not realise it but Brian Cowen actually WAS elected Taoiseach by our Oireachtas just like every other Taoiseach before him. Please inform yourself before posting such mis-information.

Also we are still waiting for you to point us to a source which shows that the new mystery 'EU President' will have huge new 'powers'! Any source will do.

Tarobot

pog it wrote: »

And your signature is even all about how good a Yes vote is. I find that highly interesting.

My signature and link are a declaration of my opinion on the treaty and the organisation I work for!! If I didn't have it there, I'm sure you would be just as quick to accuse me of being misleading and devious. Hilarious.

pog it wrote: »

That's not going to gain Tarabot any Yes voters, despite what he has claimed in other posts about campaigning for a Yes and successfully persuading at least 20 on his first day out to vote Yes!

I'm female, but thanks for the assumption. Also, I do in real life what I do here and that is informing people of the facts on the Lisbon Treaty and fighting the lies of the No side (which unfortunately takes up far too much time). What you call 'hacking down' I call 'exposing spurious baseless claims'.

pog it wrote: »

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

It's all very alarming and very very f***KEd up.

Please people do not fall for it. We will still be a member of the EU if we vote No so don't let them make a fool and pawn of you.

1. What does 'exclusive' mean here? (We're not voting on the 'next Treaty')
2. The current President-in-Office of the European Coucil is not necessarily elected by any ordinary citizen.
3. False.

It's all very alarmist and very very incorrect.

worldclass

Hi all,

I'm not a huge participant in online forums but I love to read them

One point, I'm kinda sick of hearing people saying Lisbon 2 is "100% undemocratic" - Asking a question is NOT undemocratic and listening to concerns and addressing them is NOT undemocratic.

Proceeding with Lisbon in the face of a No Result WOULD BE undemocratic, which fortunately for us isn't the case. It's black and white people, enough with the mass paranoia and faceless misinformed opinions.

Our collective intellect is proving to be seriously diminished thanks to the many campaigners who just don't have a clue.

Regardless of what you believe, Friday will be a day of reckoning for us, Whether it's a Yes or a No, there's inevitable consequences.

Personally, A Yes makes complete sense to me for my own reasons.

THINK !!!

K-9

Would electing the EU President be better for Ireland.

2 Million voters would make us insignificant surely?

marco_polo

K-9 wrote: »

Would delecting the EU President be better for Ireland.

2 Million voters would make us insignificant surely?

Sure why not? It worked out great for us in Eurovision. Saved us milllions on hosting the damn thing every other year.

phantom_lord

pog it wrote: »

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

our taoiseach is not elected directly by the people either. do you consider that undemocratic?