Irish times journalist says that Irish fee paying schools not elitist !!!

jonsnow

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/0929/1224255433096.html

Pretty nauseating stuff.Maintains that Clongowes is populated by the "sons and daughters of ordinary hardworking people", and lone parents-although she does admit that it costs 16,000 a year.If it wasn,t some kind of elite school why spend that kind of dosh so!!!.

this is so typical of some of our elite in Ireland.They view themselves as ordinary and hardworking and see themselves as having got ahead purely by their own hard work and talents-never acknowledging all the old boy and old girl networks that have protected and helped them to success their entire lives.


"Am I giving my children an advantage! I,m trying my hardest"




A PARENT'S VIEW: Those of us who opt to send their children to fee-paying schools should not be demonised – we have a right to choose the best option for our children, argues ORLAITH CARMODY
Some people describe the kind of school I’ve chosen for my three sons as “fee-paying”, implying that I pay for their education. In fact I don’t. The State does that, as it is has undertaken to pay the salaries of teachers in second-level schools to a defined ratio, based on the number of students in the school.
I pay for my three sons’ accommodation and supervision at school, their books, sports, music lessons, tours and all the other bits and pieces that every parent of teenagers knows about.
After a lot of thought, I have deliberately chosen this kind of education, in a school with a Jesuit tradition, because I believe it will help to bring out the best in my boys, and hopefully teach them something about giving back to society. This is my right as a parent.
Since September 1st, the Department of Education and Science has increased the ratio of pupils to teachers in State-run second-level schools from 18 pupils per teacher to 19. Times are tough, and bigger class sizes are inevitable. For fee-paying schools, the medicine was even harsher: one teacher for every 20 pupils.
This is the first time since 1967 that a distinction of this nature has been introduced to the system, and it will affect 28,000 students in 55 so-called fee-paying schools around the country.
Things could get worse. The Irish Times recently reported how the Department of Finance has recommended a ratio of one teacher to 38 pupils in fee-paying schools.
I believe this singling out of the fee-paying sector is blatant discrimination.
My children have the same right to the provision of teaching services as every other child in the State, regardless of whether I choose to have them educated at a local school, with an expectation of an informal annual “voluntary contribution” from me; or at a school with a formal annual contribution that I choose to pay, out of my after-tax income, for additional educational supports.
The bottom line here is that pupils educated “privately” or at fee-paying schools currently cost the State much less than those educated at non-fee-paying schools, so it would appear that the Department of Finance is engaged in a spot of economic nonsense.
Close down private schools tomorrow and all these children land into the State system looking for classroom accommodation, bus transport and per-capita grants, all of which will have to be funded by the taxpayer at enormous expense. This will be on top of the estimated €100 million the Department of Education and Science already spends on teachers’ salaries in fee-paying schools.
Memo to the Department: These teachers will have to be paid, irrespective of the kind of school in which they teach.
The sole alternative is to remove State support, leaving a few, very elite schools with prohibitive fee levels.
In my view, our fee-paying school sector is not, in any sense, elitist. Am I giving my children an advantage? Make no mistake about it: I’m trying my hardest.
My grandmother was a teacher sin a rural primary school who had been lectured by Eamon de Valera at college in Carysfort. She often concealed above-age children from the school inspector; children of 13 or 14 who she had persuaded, often with great difficulty, to stay in school for a seventh or even an eighth class, knowing that it was the only education they would ever get.
A determined widow, she coached her daughter, my mother, to win a scholarship to Monaghan’s Louis Convent in the 1940s. My mother then coached me to win a scholarship to Mount Anville in the 1970s, and despite not being able to go there, I have that all-for-education tradition coursing in my veins.
Now I run the risk of a double “elitist” charge, because not only have I chosen a school with a particular ethos for my sons, but one that is boarding as well. But you don’t lightly choose a school that costs €16,000 a year. You know exactly the cost to you, in so many ways.
But it is worth all the hours their Dad and I work because of the independent, grounded, thinking individuals who I believe will emerge at the far end, with the ambition and hopefully the ability to make a difference. At the school, Clongowes Wood College in Co Kildare, they call it becoming “Men for Others”, and I see it demonstrated every single time I’m there.
A friend of mine at the school, a lone parent, gets very irate when people describe these schools as elitist. She works every hour in the day to pay for her son’s keep, but is happy to do so because of how he has grown over the past few years. She says that it is her choice to work hard, pay her taxes and do the best she can for her son, rather than “cream the State’’ (her expression) for a house and various allowances, which she figures would probably leave her better off.
I have never met a spoiled brat at the school, either pupil or parent, only people who, like myself, value children and their education above all else. We also value justice, and would like to see the departments of Education and Science and Finance respect the 1967 Education Act, which promised equal access to teaching services for all children.
We don’t have elite schools in this country, as they do across the water. We have privately-managed schools where education is provided by the State, and where after that parents choose to have a particular ethos, Catholic, Protestant or other, taught to their children at their own expense. They are populated by the sons and daughters of ordinary, hard-working people exercising their democratic right to choose.

Mr.David

jonsnow wrote: »

If it wasn,t some kind of elite school why spend that kind of dosh so!!!.

So that your kids could learn how to use question marks?

az2wp0sye65487

Doesn't sound too un-reasonable an argument to me

The_Minister

I don't see the problem.

The State pays for the basic education of the students (teachers etc), and parents fees provide the rest on top of that.

Are those children supposed to be denied those facilities just because others are?

I know a fair few people and their friends who went to private schools.

Their parents might think the schools are "elite" and all that, but the kids normally couldn't give a toss. Talking to your average fee-paying school graduate you wouldn't have a clue that they went to one.

Johnny Weasel

Maybe the schools should introduce less elitist sports in to the facility. I'm sure the same arguments wouldn't be made if baseball and ice hockey were played and not rugby.

leeroybrown

The OP should take their blinkers off. Regardless of their personal opinion of private schools the children who attend them are all entitled to the same level of state sponsored education as children in other schools. Treating them differently would be nauseating.

I'm sure that pretty much every parent in this country is putting their hand in their pocket to pay for their child's free education. Books, heating supplements, maintenance supplements, trips all end up coming out of parents pockets. The parents of the kids in these private schools are just taking it a bit further. Some of them just do it to get their kids out of their way for the school terms. Most of the people I know that went to a private school (I didn't) were the children of two hard working parents with decent jobs.

Tefral

Went to a fee paying school myself, Im hardly elitist!
My father was a mechanic, my mam was/is a housewife (or homemaker as they like to say lol), hard working and defo working class family!

Most of the people that went with me were from one parent families etc. No snobs in with us at all in fact. I suggest OP that you may not tar us all with the same brush! My dad wanted to give me the best education that i could get to give me a good headstart in life, nothing wrong with that and in fact isnt that what all parents want for their kids regardless if they have the money to send kids to a fee paying school or not!

I know id break my balls to give my kids the very best i can.

chopperbyrne

I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too.

The_Minister

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too.

Where do you get that figure from?
Most fee-paying schools are around €5,000 a year, none are €48,000.

Pighead

You're a snob OP!. An inverted snob maybe, but a snob all the same. You don't like it when you see Pighead cycle past you on his shiny new BMX. "He's such a show off" you grumble. You hate it when you see Terrry buy the best beer in the off license. "Hope it chokes you" you sneer"

Instead of directing hatred towards the people who are paying that little bit extra for hopefully that little bit more quality why don't you open a bicycle shop or an off license and benefit from the people who are making you so bitter, jealous and angry?

chopperbyrne

The_Minister wrote: »

Where do you get that figure from?
Most fee-paying schools are around €5,000 a year, none are €48,000.

The person in the article mentioned that it cost €16,000 a year for that school and that her three sons were attending.

I may have went to a lowly public school, but I can multiply 16,000 by 3.

Dyr

because I believe it will help to bring out the best in my boys, and hopefully teach them something about giving back to society. This is my right as a parent.

lol and make sure that they're a step above the plebs.

They DO want the best for their kids. Would you prefer if they were rolling around in money and refused to provide for their families as best they could?

As long as it's not used as a status symbol in and of itself and the kids don't grow up thinking just having gone to a fee paying school means they're great, I see no problem.
I liked the article myself.

Cool Mo D

chopperbyrne wrote: »

The person in the article mentioned that it cost €16,000 a year for that school and that her three sons were attending.

I may have went to a lowly public school, but I can multiply 16,000 by 3.

Maybe you should learn how to divide 16,000 by three?

It looks clear from context that she's paying 16,000 a year for the three of them.

leeroybrown

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too.

Based on the article it seems to be one boarder and two day pupils. A day pupil should cost considerably less than a boarder so I'd say that it's more like €32,000. It's still not a small amount though...

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Maybe you should learn how to divide 16,000 by three?

It looks clear from context that she's paying 16,000 a year for the three of them.

No. I'd say that €16,000 per year is about right for a single boarder.

The_Minister

By the way, you all know that Clongowes takes seven boys a year for free?

artyeva

i too went to a fee paying secondary school that definately wasn't elitist... although saying that it's probably one of the cheapest boarding schools in the country and i went as a day pupil. they provided scholarships for pupils whose parents mightn't have otherwise been able to afford the fees and i was lucky enough to avail of that.

it's not that my folks had ideas above their station, or had any elitist ideals or anything - it was the only school in the town that was the same religious ethos of my parents. having said that, all through my 6 years there was always only a 51% intake of that religion - it was the ethos of the school but not restrictive to that. iykwim..

would i send my kids there? probably. the pupil-teacher ratios are still excellent, they have great sports facilities and pupils have the opportunity to study subject liks art, HE, all the sciences, and languages. something that's not provided in the secondary schools where i live now. i don't think there's anything elitist about wanting yer kids to get the best education you can afford, whatever that may be.

Dyr

Problem is that this country has an education system where the quality of a childs education is decided by mammy and daddys ability to stuff cash into a schools bank account. Given that kids are meant to be our greatest resource it's a travesty that this is still perpetuated.

Cherish all the children of the nation equally me arse

IvyTheTerrible

The_Minister wrote: »

By the way, you all know that Clongowes takes seven boys a year for free?

Seven?! Wow give that school a medal.

Bottle_of_Smoke

don't know about elitist but 16K a year for school is f*cking insane

leeroybrown

I know someone who decided to send their kids as day pupils to a private school (about €5,000 per child) on the basis that all the other schools that were close enough to be considered had abjectly poor reputations and she had heard nothing but bad things from the other parents with children at them. She slaved away doing an extra job part-time to make sure she could afford it. I really think the state needs to realise why people are paying to choose schools.

Dyr

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Seven?! Wow give that school a medal.

Well someone has to clean little Edward and Sneachtas' dorm :pac:

IvyTheTerrible

leeroybrown wrote: »

I know someone who decided to send their kids as day pupils to a private school (about €5,000 per child) on the basis that all the other schools that were close enough to be considered had abjectly poor reputations and she had heard nothing but bad things from the other parents with children at them. She slaved away doing an extra job part-time to make sure she could afford it. I really think the state needs to realise why people are paying to choose schools.

A lot of these schools have poor reputations because unfulfilled mammies trying to live through their kids can't accept that their little snowflake actually isn't mentally capable of getting 600 points in the Leaving, so of course it must be the school's fault.

(And before someone says that a lot of private schools have better results, a lot of them have entrance exams so of course the average is higher).

The_Minister

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Seven?! Wow give that school a medal.

Yes seven. Assuming fees of 6,000 a year that is €42,000 a year that they have no obligation to give but are anyway.

genericguy

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

A lot of these schools have poor reputations because unfulfilled mammies trying to live through their kids can't accept that their little snowflake actually isn't mentally capable of getting 600 points in the Leaving, so of course it must be the school's fault.

(And before someone says that a lot of private schools have better results, a lot of them have entrance exams so of course the average is higher).

agreed.

i wouldn't be interested in sending any children i may have to one of these schools, irrespective of my income. i went to an absolute shithole school, and although i probably wouldn't choose one of those for my children either, public schools are far better for character development than private schools full of fintans and andreas, and that in my view is far more important than a 600 point leaving certificate.

K-Ren

I love private schooling. It meant that when I went to secondary school, any pretentious dickwads that might have ruined 5 years of my life were all holed up together in some place far, far away!

leeroybrown

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

A lot of these schools have poor reputations because unfulfilled mammies trying to live through their kids can't accept that their little snowflake actually isn't mentally capable of getting 600 points in the Leaving, so of course it must be the school's fault.

It wasn't the academic results that scared her off. It was the poor reputations that the schools had developed across other areas (the way the school was run, discipline, bullying, etc) combined with the concerns of the other parents who had to deal with the kids who spent time there.

The_Minister

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

A lot of these schools have poor reputations because unfulfilled mammies trying to live through their kids can't accept that their little snowflake actually isn't mentally capable of getting 600 points in the Leaving, so of course it must be the school's fault.

(And before someone says that a lot of private schools have better results, a lot of them have entrance exams so of course the average is higher).

The enterance exams are normally to determine what stream the child is put in, not to determine if the child gets into school.
There are however interviews done prior to the child being accepted, to make sure that he/she can fit in, is interested in education etc.

The thing is that the type of parents that send their children to private school tend to care deeply that their child gets educated. You tend to get less disruptive children, and if they are disruptive, a quick call home usually sorts things.
All it takes is one or two children to wreck the education of all the others, only one or two parents who don't care. If a parent doesn't care about their child's education, they aren't going to spend thousands on it.

You are also more likely to have social problems in certain public schools.
The achievement difference between public and private schools is mostly attitude IMO.

The_Minister

genericguy wrote: »

agreed.

i wouldn't be interested in sending any children i may have to one of these schools, irrespective of my income. i went to an absolute shithole school, and although i probably wouldn't choose one of those for my children either, public schools are far better for character development than private schools full of fintans and andreas, and that in my view is far more important than a 600 point leaving certificate.

:rolleyes: Nice stereotpyes.

Pighead

K-Ren wrote: »

I love private schooling. It meant that when I went to secondary school, any pretentious dickwads that might have ruined 5 years of my life were all holed up together in some place far, far away!

How on earth can you call somebody a pretentious dickwad for attending a private school!

In that case the lads who don't bother going with education at all should call you a pretentious dickwad for attending school. The boys with no footwear should call you a pretentious dickwad for buying your Nike runners etc etc etc etc!

genericguy

K-Ren wrote: »

I love private schooling. It meant that when I went to secondary school, any pretentious dickwads that might have ruined 5 years of my life were all holed up together in some place far, far away!

yea, riiiight....

Sleipnir

Her name is Orlaith and she went to Mount Anville, for God's sake. Of course she's elitist.

I have never met a spoiled brat at the school, either pupil or parent

Seriously, there's not one spoiled brat in Clongowes? BULL****!

NaiveMelodies

jonsnow wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/0929/1224255433096.html


this is so typical of our elite in Ireland.They view themselves as ordinary and hardworking and see themselves as having got ahead purely by their own hard work and talents-never acknowledging all the old boy and old girl networks that have protected and helped them to success their entire lives.

I find this absolutley hilarious, who the fcuk are you to say my parents were part of an old boy/old girl network? Who the hell are u to say that they didnt get "ahead" by their own talents and hard work?

I think your struggling with being oridnary and will find any excuse to look down on those who have had more success and given their children a better education.

K-Ren

Pighead wrote: »

How on earth can you call somebody a pretentious dickwad for attending a private school!

In that case the lads who don't bother going with education at all should call you a pretentious dickwad for attending school. The boys with no footwear should call you a pretentious dickwad for buying your Nike runners etc etc etc etc!

I see where you're going with this- so what you mean is they'd kind of have the same attitude as me towards other people, except that they ''don't bother'' with education and don't have shoes? Your strong rebuke, particularly your mention of '' etc etc etc, etc etc etc exclaimation mark '' has swayed me, my hat is off to you sir.

Oh The Humanity

Its only fair that D4 kids should be quarantined from normal kids ehm, allowed have their own school so they don't infect normal kids with their fcuked up accents can learn important D4 skills such as Lacrosse, Hockey, what season pieces are important to be seen wearing, how to cultivate an eating disorder etc

If they were allowed to contaminate ordinary kids schools subjected to attending schools with plebians they may never learn these essential life skills and then where would we all be Petronella? Hm?

NaiveMelodies

K-Ren wrote: »

I love private schooling. It meant that when I went to secondary school, any pretentious dickwads that might have ruined 5 years of my life were all holed up together in some place far, far away!

I love public schooling. It meant that when i went to secondary school, any jealous idiots that might have ruined 6 years of my life were all holed up toghether in some place far, far away.

Should have got your "ma" to work that extra part-time job to get Transition year in.


I AM BEING SARCASTIC

genericguy

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

Its only fair that D4 kids should be quarantined from normal kids ehm, allowed have their own school so they don't infect normal kids with their fcuked up accents can learn important D4 skills such as Lacrosse, Hockey, what season pieces are important to be seen wearing, how to cultivate an eating disorder etc

If they were allowed to contaminate ordinary kids schools subjected to attending schools with plebians they may never learn these essential life skills and then where would we all be Petronella? Hm?

and let's not forget the favoured team-sport of blackrock college "kick the proletarien about the cranium"...

Pighead

K-Ren wrote: »

I see where you're going with this- so what you mean is they'd kind of have the same attitude as me towards other people, except that they ''don't bother'' with education and don't have shoes? Your strong rebuke, particularly your mention of '' etc etc etc, etc etc etc exclaimation mark '' has swayed me, my hat is off to you sir.

Oooooh look at this pretentious dickwad with his fancy hat.

tallaght01

leeroybrown wrote: »

I know someone who decided to send their kids as day pupils to a private school (about €5,000 per child) on the basis that all the other schools that were close enough to be considered had abjectly poor reputations and she had heard nothing but bad things from the other parents with children at them. She slaved away doing an extra job part-time to make sure she could afford it. I really think the state needs to realise why people are paying to choose schools.

This is important. If you live in tallaght, for example, which is probably the biggest town in the country. You don't have a good school anywhere near you. If your kid shows some promise, your only option is to send them to one of the local kips and hope for the best, or go private.

There's a real shortage of good public secondary schools for working class kids in Dublin.

genericguy

only1stevo wrote: »

I love public schooling. It meant that when i went to secondary school, any jealous idiots that might have ruined 6 years of my life were all holed up toghether in some place far, far away.

Should have got your "ma" to work that extra part-time job to get Transition year in.

chill out there finian, you'll give yourself skin failure.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Pighead wrote: »

Oooooh look at this pretentious dickwad with his fancy hat.

Banned.

4zn76tysfajdxp

genericguy wrote: »

chill out there finian, you'll give yourself skin failure.

Cop on.

NaiveMelodies

genericguy wrote: »

chill out there finian, you'll give yourself skin failure.

Wasnt serious, surely that was obvious.

Dudess

Nothing like private school threads in After Hours to bring out staggering levels of snobbery (and I don't mean the "reverse" kind).

That said, not all private school educated peeps were born with silver spoons in their mouths.

NaiveMelodies

Dudess wrote: »

Nothing like private school threads in After Hours to bring out staggering levels of snobbery (and I don't mean the "reverse" kind).

Give a few examples? Note mine was merely an example of how stupid KREN was sounding had It been in reverse.

Dudess

only1stevo wrote: »

I find this absolutley hilarious, who the fcuk are you to say my parents were part of an old boy/old girl network? Who the hell are u to say that they didnt get "ahead" by their own talents and hard work?

I agree with you there - it's ludicrous to say every single person who goes/went to a private school is part of Ireland's elite and only got a place at the school because of the old boys'/girls' network. My brothers went to a fee-paying school and my dad was a civil servant (not a senior one), my mother wasn't working. They went there because it offered the best facilities of the schools that were convenient to get to, but it happened to be private. Their first choice was a state school but they couldn't get in there due to being just outside the catchment area.
I went to a state school because it offered the best facilities of the schools that were convenient to get to. I think the notion "paying for it means it will be better" is naive.

However, I think the following comes across as awfully snobbish:

I think your struggling with being oridnary

only1stevo wrote: »

Should have got your "ma" to work that extra part-time job to get Transition year in.

Davidius

If you really strive to do your best then you'd be best going to a public school.

Why?

I went to a public school.

I'm the best.

Me.

Nobody else.

It only makes sense.

Eoin

Dudess wrote:

Nothing like private school threads in After Hours to bring out staggering levels of snobbery (and I don't mean the "reverse" kind).

I agree, but I definitely do mean the reverse kind of snobbery.

Dudess wrote:

However, I think the following comes across as awfully snobbish

I think those quotes are somewhat outnumbered by the chip-on-the-shoulder crowd though.

NaiveMelodies

Dudess wrote: »

However, I think the following comes across as awfully snobbish:

Ok im going to edit that post and put a big massive SARCASM badge on it.


And Eoin is right, The Reverse kind is far more prevalent.

laugh

Dudess wrote: »

Nothing like private school threads in After Hours to bring out staggering levels of snobbery (and I don't mean the "reverse" kind).

That said, not all private school educated peeps were born with silver spoons in their mouths.

Furthest off the mark you have ever been, nothing like a private school thread to highlight the giant chips on shoulders.

The parents are just adding to what the state are obliged to pay for everyone.

I would rather have the private schools than be without them, if only a few people with talent are given the environment to suceed where some scumbag isn't taking up all the teachers time with their behavior problems.