Breaking the stale old political system

paddyland

Here's a hypothetical idea. It is way out there, somewhere on the borders of unreality and lunacy. But THIS GOVERNMENT, this is unreality and lunacy. I cannot imagine that the level of anger and frustration evidenced here on Boards does not somehow mirror the percentage of frustrated and angry people throughout our society.

The fact is, if there were a general election tomorrow, most likely either FG or a combination of FG and Labour would be returned to power. Enda Kenny would be taoiseach. Now I'm sure Enda is decent enough, and just a little wary of the anger demonstrated out there. But would it not simply be a case of replacing tweedledum with tweedledee? FG, a slightly more palatable version of FF, under a different name? If not quite as corrupted to the core, certainly as indecisive and incompetent. And we would have the sickening spectacle off FF retiring safely to the opposition benches to shout and roar self righteously across the house.

No, not good enough. In the present circumstances, there is NO OTHER OPTION, except a complete overhaul of the political system, PR, the number of deputies, the constituencies, everything that has been allowed to grow into a self consuming monster over decades of vested interests. That overhaul of the system will NEVER come from the political parties who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

So we are stumped. Or are we? The only thing we have left, is people power, a force of change that seems to be unharnessable in selfish old Ireland. What you need is leadership.

If, at the next general election, some massive percentage of votes were to be spoiled, say 60% or more, could an incoming government stand with such a result? Would they not face such international embarrassment as to flounder immediately? What percentage of spoiled votes would be necessary to pull down the entire political system?

If, hypothetically speaking, such an impasse were to occur, WHAT would happen next? If FG got 20%, Labour 10%, FF 10%, Others 10%, and 50% spoiled votes, WHAT would be the procedure in such an instance? FG could not form a credible government. FF would be ruined. But apart from party rivalries and upset, where would the political system turn next?

Is this a way for people power to instigate the change that political parties cannot and will not?

How do you harness such people power? By a new movement, a one off movement, peopled by household names, political commentators, like Dunphy, O'Toole, Brown, Waters, sports stars, television personalities, business people, anyone who can stand up and be listened to, and who can bring a large swathe of the general public with them, and who have the balls to stand up and be counted for a new type of Ireland, not just a watered down version of the stale old one.

This movement would form and exist for one purpose and one purpose only, the nobbling of the next general election, and the clear message of people for reform of the entire system, rather than the same old vote for tweedledum, vote for tweedledee. Let the current compromised system then fall, and let's have six months of emergency government as a new system is put to the people for acceptance, and then another general election, this time under whole new strictures and constituency lines.

Their platform would not be to garner votes, but to campaign for the spoiling of votes, a large diagonal line across the voting paper. That diagonal line would be the movement's signature. The message would be loud and clear. Spoil your vote, and send a message for tooth and nail reform of the entire political system, cutting of seats, revamp of the PR system, ending of expenses scams and loopholes, abolishment of the senate, division between local lobbying and state government, qualifications for government ministers, a host of reforms that would have this one opportunity to be visited seriously. This moment would never happen again, one chance to get it all right.

I told you it was lunatic and fanciful, but wake up folks, we are living in cloud cuckoo land as it is if we think voting FG, or any party, under the present political system, will make any difference at all to the state this country is in.

maxwell smart

Unfortunatly, even with the figures you've outlined, I firmly believe that the political parties in this country would still go ahead and form a government.
The only way to change this country is through some new movement, which has a party constitution which is acceptable to its members, has none of the old cronies involved, has the backbone to stand up to the social partners, unions and vested interests.
I'm not holding my breath!

murphaph

I firmly believe these guys are our best hope of achieving reform of "the system" Paddyland. I too believe the system is the problem. We need to abolish PRSTV as it leads to a system that is far too heavily biased towards local issues and the Dail becomes almost unimportant (see how many debates are attended by almost nobody). PR List (like in many European countries, including Germany) tends to remove the local aspect greatly (only 1 TD per constituency, no need to show "I'm better than the other guy at getting you a hip replacement/your pothole fixed etc.) and allows the national parliament to focus on national and international issues and leave pothole fixing to the local county council (where it belongs!).

Dannyboy83

Well, at the very least, if Labour or FG came in instead of Fianna Fail, you would be eliminating a lot of corruption and moving the bar back up. That in itself alone would remove some major obstacles.
I'm not saying this would fix all the problems, but it would at least alleviate some of them.

Fianna Fail have simply been in power too long.
They corrupt, out of touch with reality, spineless & unable to make the necessary decisions, and the longer they remain in power, the more damage it will do to this country.

The Greens are worse than FF imo, because they know what is happening is wrong and unacceptable, yet they're just standing idly by and watching it.


I'm not sure how you could change the whole political system, other than a violent revolution.

Overheal

You'd want to look for a regime change before a complete overhaul of your government infrastructure. Talk about instability..

Shorter term limits maybe. Your problem seems to be many of the same cronies in power for years and years and Ohsh*tscandal maybe I should resign goldenhandshakeyay. We've got the same problem in the US with Senators being able to effectively treat their position as a career... after long they get the sense of entitlement and all this crap. I think we got the President right with 2 terms. Why should it be any different for a senate or house seat? Might break down the cronyism quite a bit.

murphaph

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well, at the very least, if Labour or FG came in instead of Fianna Fail, you would be eliminating a lot of corruption and moving the bar back up. That in itself alone would remove some major obstacles.
I'm not saying this would fix all the problems, but it would at least alleviate some of them.

I'm not so sure Danny. Remember the next man down in the expenses trough after John O'Donoghue is Brendan Howlin (and he had no job that required flying abroad anywhere). No wonder Labour are keeping schtum! I still haven't had a response from the email I sent to my local Labour TD, asking here what her opinion on O'Donoghue's expenses was! FG not making any noise either (Varadkar is barely in the Dail and already taking a packet home in expenses despite living in Castleknock FFS).

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Fianna Fail have simply been in power too long.
They corrupt, out of touch with reality, spineless & unable to make the necessary decisions, and the longer they remain in power, the more damage it will do to this country.

Amen. This describes them to a tee.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The Greens are worse than FF imo, because they know what is happening is wrong and unacceptable, yet they're just standing idly by and watching it.

Yeah, at least other minority coalition partners seemed to know when enough was enough (during the 70s/80s/90's).

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm not sure how you could change the whole political system, other than a violent revolution.

Let's get behing Amhran Nua. They don't have all the answers but who does? They DO have the intention of changing the system from the core, which I feel is what's needed at this stage..

Boskowski

I'm not sure there is a way of peacefully removing the political system.

The establishment is clever enough to let things become just not quite bad enough for the people to actually get their arses off the couch.

Overheal

Well, theres always that. And you're right its hard to think of a good example of a case where there was a swift and peaceful redrafting of a State's constitution. I don't see it happening.

Totally off topic thats what lost Huckabee a nomination: he went on hinting that he was willing and prepared to rewrite the whole damned thing if need be. Nutter.

Amhran Nua

realcam wrote: »

I'm not sure there is a way of peacefully removing the political system.

Sure there is, you just need a small group of concerned citizens willing to try to gather support behind a few sane policies. Then everyone else to vote for them.

Long Onion

The constitution would need to be re-written and presented to the people for acceptance. This would mean that the alternative government would have to be in power first.

No chance i'm afraid.

Amhran Nua

Long Onion wrote: »

This would mean that the alternative government would have to be in power first.

No chance i'm afraid.

Why would there be no chance?

Long Onion

Because of peoples fear of change. If such a party were to be true to their political ideals, they would have to be upfront about their desire to re-write the constitution, they would be expected to have a proposed document for the electorate to examine, in an open democracy, there would be too much opposition for this to ever get off the ground.

You would be re-writing the law on personal rights, political structures, family rights, our relationship with the EU etc etc.

For what it's worth, I think that the Constitution could do with a re-draft, but such things could probably only be accomplished in the aftermath of some kind of social revolution - in modern day Ireland, this is a non-starter.

Amhran Nua

Long Onion wrote: »

Because of peoples fear of change.

Its hard to see how things could get much worse to be honest. Fear of change isn't a legitimate objection in the middle of a recession.

Long Onion

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Fear of change isn't a legitimate objection in the middle of a recession.

It's a question of degree, should one use a steam hammer to squash a fly?

Re-writing the entire constitution as a result of an economic recession would be a bridge to far for many. Anyway, absent a Dev-style semi-autocracy, it's a moot point methinks.

Amhran Nua

Long Onion wrote: »

Re-writing the entire constitution as a result of an economic recession would be a bridge to far for many.

I'd agree with that but you wouldn't need to rewrite the whole thing top to bottom in order to effect some very useful changes. Besides the constitution is being changed regularly, we're voting on such a change on Friday.

murphaph

Yes, the constitution isn't in need of a total rewrite tbh. A lot of it is sound. The main hurdle as I see it (to ireland really advancing as a nation) is the PRSTV system. It has to go and only when it's gone and replaced with a list system or even First Past the Post that we will have a system based far too much on local issues and leaving the Dail as an innefective national parliament. It seems to be in a permanent state of paralysis!

Why does Ireland need 3 or 4 times the number of Dail Deputies per capita as MPs per capita in Westminster or Bundestagsmitglieder per capita in the Bundestag. We don't!

Amhran Nua

I don't know if FPTP would be much better, as it has lead to the US style two party system Stateside, but as far as a list or partial list system, we're actually one of the very few countries using PR that still use the STV. Its like imperial versus metric at this stage. Lots of other ways to move on from the parish pump as well, but its a vital step.