Are you honest to yourself or just a slave to the world you live in ?

Drumpot

I have had this debate with several friends and only one friend truly understands the concept behind my belief. . .

I believe we are slaves to the world we are born into . .

Why do we vote a certain way ?

We are programmed to accept the media that shows us what we should believe in ( and the majority of us accept education from unbalanced sources!).

What is Democracy ?

Its really a myth, an idea that only exists to a select few.

Working 9-5 for a majority of your life is simply a sadistic way of living . To me , its just another feudalistic system that's just a different name for working your fingers to the bone for the select few in the world . .

If you choose not to abide by this general accepted way of surviving, you are an outcast and have no true ability to live the life of a "free" person. .

Its funny because I compared our lives to that of "the matrix" movie (now trumpet the people who were looking to knock down my perception). . Quite simply, those who are hooked up to and those who accept the circus they are born into, are slaves of conforming. The select few who actually question this absurdity are marginised and mocked by the ignorant . .

I simply believe the world as we know it, is simply one big "idea" thats about as real as democracy . .

Joe1919

Drumpot wrote: »

Working 9-5 for a majority of your life is simply a sadistic way of living .. .

".....The workman of today works every day in his life at the same tasks, and this fate is no less absurd. But it is tragic only at the rare moments when it becomes conscious. Sisyphus, proletarian of the gods, powerless and rebellious, knows the whole extent of his wretched condition: it is what he thinks of during his descent. The lucidity that was to constitute his torture at the same time crowns his victory. There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn......"

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html

Red Hand

Well, yeah, people work, but so what? People have always worked?

25,000 years ago, people worked by hunting, storing, gathering, building, making clothes, caring for children...do you think that was all easy? Life is never fair or meant to be easy. Those that live in a democracy and have work and a comfortable 9-5 are lucky. Think of all the billions of people have never had that level of comfort.

Drumpot

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Well, yeah, people work, but so what? People have always worked?

25,000 years ago, people worked by hunting, storing, gathering, building, making clothes, caring for children...do you think that was all easy? Life is never fair or meant to be easy. Those that live in a democracy and have work and a comfortable 9-5 are lucky. Think of all the billions of people have never had that level of comfort.

Many people work to live . .

But 25,000 years ago, we were in control of our destiny's . .Now we are simply restricted by the vested interest of the world . . .

My post isn't simply about working . . Its about freedom, or lack of freedom to make choices . .

Some argue that this is just the way of the world . Not true, this is simply the world we accept . .

Somebody said to me sure its better then its ever been (freedoms etc) but when you start accepting that "this is as good as it gets" you are simply giving up on looking for true freedom . .

Hey, Im a slave to the system and get on with things . . Doesnt mean I cant be self aware . .

Joe1919

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.'

Shakespeare

Perhaps what you desire is to be free to 'be yourself'. There may be nothing wrong with this. It may even be quite noble, to live an authentic life and lifestyle.

Drumpot

Joe1919 wrote: »

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.'

Shakespeare

Perhaps what you desire is to be free to 'be yourself'. There may be nothing wrong with this. It may even be quite noble, to live an authentic life and lifestyle.

Perhaps you are right . . +1

Red Hand

Drumpot wrote: »

Many people work to live . .

But 25,000 years ago, we were in control of our destiny's . .Now we are simply restricted by the vested interest of the world . . .

People weren't in control of their destinies back then either. Climate, animal migrations, seasons, not to mention their own culture, rules and religions all restrict you as much if not more than working in an office, commuting, living a humdrum post industrial life buying products

.

My post isn't simply about working . . Its about freedom, or lack of freedom to make choices . .

What sort of choices? If you are rich/powerful enough, then your range of choices go up. That has applied throughout history.

Some argue that this is just the way of the world . Not true, this is simply the world we accept . .

Somebody said to me sure its better then its ever been (freedoms etc) but when you start accepting that "this is as good as it gets" you are simply giving up on looking for true freedom . .

Hey, Im a slave to the system and get on with things . . Doesnt mean I cant be self aware . .

What is true freedom, though?

Many people are aware as yourself....that we're just cogs in a machine, but you just have to get on with it, no?

Joe1919

To some extent, there is a certain paradox in the desire for freedom. 'Desires' limits our freedom (e.g. the addict is not free). We can become slaves to our own desires and to our desire for freedom.

In this way then, the guy who (like Sisyphus) accepts his fate and goes to work cheerfully every day has achieved a sort of freedom........a freedom from discontent and a freedom from the desire of freedom itself.

Another point that has been made (by Isaiah Berlin) is that complete freedom and complete equality are incompatible. Complete equality means people above other people have to be kept down in order to promote chances for everybody. The two things (complete freedom and complete equality) can't be had together but are both perfectly noble ultimate ends. One has to choose or compromise in the end.

Freedom is a quite a troublesome concept...............When we talk of being free, we must ask 'free to do what?'

Drumpot

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Many people are aware as yourself....that we're just cogs in a machine, but you just have to get on with it, no?

At the end of the day . . Yes I agree with this statement . .

I suppose I just believe many people see my views on the world as radical. . I simply believe them to be an honest assessment of the world most people never truly understand . .

Drumpot

Joe1919 wrote: »

To some extent, there is a certain paradox in the desire for freedom. 'Desires' limits our freedom (e.g. the addict is not free). We can become slaves to our own desires and to our desire for freedom.

In this way then, the guy who (like Sisyphus) accepts his fate and goes to work cheerfully every day has achieved a sort of freedom........a freedom from discontent and a freedom from the desire of freedom itself.

Another point that has been made (by Isaiah Berlin) is that complete freedom and complete equality are incompatible. Complete equality means people above other people have to be kept down in order to promote chances for everybody. The two things (complete freedom and complete equality) can't be had together but are both perfectly noble ultimate ends. One has to choose or compromise in the end.

Freedom is a quite a troublesome concept...............When we talk of being free, we must ask 'free to do what?'

Once again . . I concur . .

Joe1919

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny because I compared our lives to that of "the matrix" movie (now trumpet the people who were looking to knock down my perception). . Quite simply, those who are hooked up to and those who accept the circus they are born into, are slaves of conforming. The select few who actually question this absurdity are marginised and mocked by the ignorant . .

.

I have never seen the matrix movie but I loved the old 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin' series? They were brilliant.

potlatch

My view is: we are born into an always-already existing intersubjective social reality. As singular and social subjects, we struggle to establish ourselves in this order, individually and collectively, through creating the conditions of agency in which the always-already social reality is continually modified.

As regards the extent to which we exercise minimal or maximal agency, social power of institutions and human relationship play important roles in reproducing the existing social order, while resistance to those can modify it. But always it implies an order of power.

In short: you're both right, and both wrong.

Seillejet

I was sort of getting what you were saying OP and then lost all interest once you started mentioning the Matrix movies. Hated them bar the couple of action scenes. Neo, Oracle the lot bored me to tears. Most overrated movie franchise ever.

potlatch

I thought the first one was, philosophically and semotically, well-conceived and executed.

The rest were dire.

Seillejet

Dont want to hijack OP's thread but I thought the same until I watched the first one again recently and thought it treats the viewer like we are lemmings. Couple of cool action scenes was all I took from it.

Drumpot

Seillejet wrote: »

I was sort of getting what you were saying OP and then lost all interest once you started mentioning the Matrix movies. Hated them bar the couple of action scenes. Neo, Oracle the lot bored me to tears. Most overrated movie franchise ever.

It was more trying to compare the whole idea behind the matrix . I thought some might find this slightly "off" topic. .

At its core the movie was saying we are slaves to a higher purpose and that some of us accept the world we are born into and some of us don't.

Forget about the oracle or neo in the science fiction sense . . I suppose Neo would represent a revolutionary figure , Instead of being able to fly, he can inspire and help everybody see the flaws of our world . .

Like I said, i dont stay up at night pondering the Ills of the world, nor do I let it stop me from getting on with things . . Its just nice to discuss this reality with people who understand the hypocracy of "democratic" life or perceived freedom as we know it . .

Drumpot

Joe1919 wrote: »

I have never seen the matrix movie but I loved the old 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin' series? They were brilliant.

Im afraid Ive never seen that . .

Tyrant^

Drumpot wrote: »

I have had this debate with several friends and only one friend truly understands the concept behind my belief. . .

I believe we are slaves to the world we are born into . .

Why do we vote a certain way ?

We are programmed to accept the media that shows us what we should believe in ( and the majority of us accept education from unbalanced sources!).

What is Democracy ?

Its really a myth, an idea that only exists to a select few.

Working 9-5 for a majority of your life is simply a sadistic way of living . To me , its just another feudalistic system that's just a different name for working your fingers to the bone for the select few in the world . .

If you choose not to abide by this general accepted way of surviving, you are an outcast and have no true ability to live the life of a "free" person. .

Its funny because I compared our lives to that of "the matrix" movie (now trumpet the people who were looking to knock down my perception). . Quite simply, those who are hooked up to and those who accept the circus they are born into, are slaves of conforming. The select few who actually question this absurdity are marginised and mocked by the ignorant . .

I simply believe the world as we know it, is simply one big "idea" thats about as real as democracy . .

Im on the same level as you

Working 9-5 for such essential things for a humans survival... Shelter, Food, and Water for some people.
Good thing we dont have to pay for too Oxygen right !? ... Oh Boy, we are so lucky freakin LUCKY ! :rolleyes:

I wouldnt mind if the majority of jobs were actually constructive or had some kind of good benefit to the world. Most jobs are just static, useless, aren't doing ANYTHING to progress US as a species.

Democracy doesnt exsist... its just there to give the illusion that the people have some control.

I know it wont be like this forever. People are already getting sick of politicians, war, famine, recessions, depressions... etc

Just because we have been living this way for thousands of years does not mean we have to continue living like this. The world could be such a better place if we all just stopped fighting and competing with each other...

"...But it doesn't matter, because ... It's just a ride.

And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear wants you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead see all of us as one.

Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride:

Take all that money we spent on weapons and defense each year and instead spend it feeding, clothing, and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and WE CAN EXPLORE SPACE, TOGETHER, BOTH INNER AND OUTER, forever ... in peace."

- Bill Hicks

phelixoflaherty

There are people who work and people who talk.
One smells slightly of sweat the other a slightly marzipany ****ey smell.

lin lin

I think youre right in a way. I quite like the idea of "freedom is to follow the rules we impose on ourselves". In that sense freedom is possibly the most important concept for humans, makes us what we are ie we are free to choose who we are by choosing the rules we want to follow. as opposed to animals, and tables, and such :-)

having said that its very easy to be a slave to anything. Sure how quickly can you brainwash someone? a professional can do it in a few days I think.. in a way most of us are slaves to social, cultural, religious beliefs.
so if you choose to do something you hate for a living just because the money is good youre in fact a slave. and the other way around.

Freud said something like "love and work are the cornerstones" to being sound, applying the above this would be one of the most fundamental beliefs there is that people need to love and to work to be happy and it would be very hard to break free from it.

I remember i thought the first Matrix movie was interesting but havent seen it now since it came out ive pretty much forgotten everything.. Groundhog day is one of my favourite movies because it illustrates some of the above in such a cute funny way..

nyarlothothep

Tyrant^ wrote: »

Im on the same level as you

Working 9-5 for such essential things for a humans survival... Shelter, Food, and Water for some people.
Good thing we dont have to pay for too Oxygen right !? ... Oh Boy, we are so lucky freakin LUCKY ! :rolleyes:

I wouldnt mind if the majority of jobs were actually constructive or had some kind of good benefit to the world. Most jobs are just static, useless, aren't doing ANYTHING to progress US as a species.

Democracy doesnt exsist... its just there to give the illusion that the people have some control.

I know it wont be like this forever. People are already getting sick of politicians, war, famine, recessions, depressions... etc

Just because we have been living this way for thousands of years does not mean we have to continue living like this. The world could be such a better place if we all just stopped fighting and competing with each other...

"...But it doesn't matter, because ... It's just a ride.

And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear wants you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead see all of us as one.

Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride:

Take all that money we spent on weapons and defense each year and instead spend it feeding, clothing, and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and WE CAN EXPLORE SPACE, TOGETHER, BOTH INNER AND OUTER, forever ... in peace."

- Bill Hicks

Apparently humanity, overall, is getting less violent through history. in other words people were, have been and are getting sick of violent displays from their leaders. Maybe things are improving but the rights we enjoy now were hard won then. I agree though that there is a severe democratic deficit.

CPT. SURF

If any of you ever find yourself in jail, as I have , you will have a much better understanding of freedom, and what an important and integral aspect of humanity it truly is.

They say that 'you don't know what you got till it's gone'; and when it comes to freedom, there was never a more accurate assessment. To be locked in a tiny room and never allowed to leave it is horrific. You can actually feel your mind/body/spirit actively rebelling against the imprisonment; when you realize that this rebellion is futile, you can be broken. The anxiety is impossible to defy, the thought that you might not get out is the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. Imprisonment is anti-freedom, anti-human. When you are in there the very core of your being knows that this is just "wrong", knowing you can't get out is petrifying.

The result upon release, at least for me, was an affirmation that freedom does exist and it is the most precious thing you have.

e04bf099

CPT. SURF wrote: »

If any of you ever find yourself in jail, as I have , you will have a much better understanding of freedom, and what an important and integral aspect of humanity it truly is.

They say that 'you don't know what you got till it's gone'; and when it comes to freedom, there was never a more accurate assessment. To be locked in a tiny room and never allowed to leave it is horrific. You can actually feel your mind/body/spirit actively rebelling against the imprisonment; when you realize that this rebellion is futile, you can be broken. The anxiety is impossible to defy, the thought that you might not get out is the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. Imprisonment is anti-freedom, anti-human. When you are in there the very core of your being knows that this is just "wrong", knowing you can't get out is petrifying.

The result upon release, at least for me, was an affirmation that freedom does exist and it is the most precious thing you have.

You might consider this naive but the kind of freedom, the immanent and direct forced incarceration, can and is replicated every day outside of the prison system. I think that we are controlled to the point that I (and I can only guess that other people may feel like this also - although if you say I'm wrong I have no response) often feel like, and equate the feeling to, sensory depervation. I have a view of the world, as every human being does, and I am constantly searching for an internally coherent and consistant narrative in order to obtain a kind of conviction and unity of purpose and action. I think this is the fundamental conflict of the human subject in society. That is, the conflict between our active will, which always seeks to ignore or destroy those assertions that are logically inconsistant with its broad framework or network, and our realisation that there is always a broader narrative, of which we are a mere pawn or piece whose path can only be calculated and never understood. This conflict manifests itself in many ways, from philosophy and metaphysics, to World Wars and revolutions, but it is fundamentally of the same substance as that of incarceration, even if a persons experience of incarceration might be their que to differentiate it as the primary instance of freedom being denied to a person.

A lot of what I have said is fundamentally contained in 1984.

CPT. SURF

e04bf099 wrote: »

You might consider this naive but the kind of freedom, the immanent and direct forced incarceration, can and is replicated every day outside of the prison system. I think that we are controlled to the point that I (and I can only guess that other people may feel like this also - although if you say I'm wrong I have no response) often feel like, and equate the feeling to, sensory depervation. I have a view of the world, as every human being does, and I am constantly searching for an internally coherent and consistant narrative in order to obtain a kind of conviction and unity of purpose and action. I think this is the fundamental conflict of the human subject in society. That is, the conflict between our active will, which always seeks to ignore or destroy those assertions that are logically inconsistant with its broad framework or network, and our realisation that there is always a broader narrative, of which we are a mere pawn or piece whose path can only be calculated and never understood. This conflict manifests itself in many ways, from philosophy and metaphysics, to World Wars and revolutions, but it is fundamentally of the same substance as that of incarceration, even if a persons experience of incarceration might be their que to differentiate it as the primary instance of freedom being denied to a person.

A lot of what I have said is fundamentally contained in 1984.

I do find that naive. You have sensory deprivation because the world has become stale to you. You do not realize the how fortunate you are to be able to feel the breeze in the morning, see the sun rise, listen to the birds, and feel the sun on your face. It is sad when someone loses the excitement and appreciation of life.

You may feel, and indeed are, enclosed by the social society you live in. I think it is normal to feel trapped by work, family, friends, and the general monotony of day to day life. But you know what? You can get up from your desk right now and walk down to the shop and buy a coffee. You can ask for two sugars in it if you like, a chocolate bar, and then you can go home and lie on your comfy sofa.

I like this topic and I think it is interesting but a huge part of me can't help but feel it is really just an interesting intellectual exercise. I honestly don't know if we can ever really appreciate what we have without losing it at least once. We are such self-absorbed creatures

e04bf099

CPT. SURF wrote: »

I do find that naive. You have sensory deprivation because the world has become stale to you. You do not realize the how fortunate you are to be able to feel the breeze in the morning, see the sun rise, listen to the birds, and feel the sun on your face. It is sad when someone loses the excitement and appreciation of life.

You may feel, and indeed are, enclosed by the social society you live in. I think it is normal to feel trapped by work, family, friends, and the general monotony of day to day life. But you know what? You can get up from your desk right now and walk down to the shop and buy a coffee. You can ask for two sugars in it if you like, a chocolate bar, and then you can go home and lie on your comfy sofa.

I like this topic and I think it is interesting but a huge part of me can't help but feel it is really just an interesting intellectual exercise. I honestly don't know if we can ever really appreciate what we have without losing it at least once. We are such self-absorbed creatures

So what you're saying is that I'm not incarcerated, therefore I don't know what freedom really is. I don't think you should trivialise what I'm saying by narrowing the criterion of what freedom consists in to being able to go to the shop for a coffee and the ability to vegetate on the couch. Yeah, people are self-absorbed, but that isn't because of their nature. Its because the picture painted by he broad narrative of society directly and continuously disregards my wn perceptions, and defines the evidential criterion of valid statements and assertions. This process turns people inward, as they can often not deny their own own perceptions, and yet, they can't assert themselves validly.

That does not trivialise your ordeal, and I never intended to do that. Your experience of being in prison is obviously much more traumatic. But that doesn't mean it isn't coherent to describe the subject in society as similarly coherced and de-humanised. I do think you're talking about the same fundamental process, and if thats naive, fine, but I haven't just pulled it out of my ass-hole. I've given the subject enough critical thought to be comfortable with my personal synopsis. This isn't entertainment or a whimsical philosophical exercise to me.

CPT. SURF

e04bf099 wrote: »

So what you're saying is that I'm not incarcerated, therefore I don't know what freedom really is. I don't think you should trivialise what I'm saying by narrowing the criterion of what freedom consists in to being able to go to the shop for a coffee and the ability to vegetate on the couch. Yeah, people are self-absorbed, but that isn't because of their nature. Its because the picture painted by he broad narrative of society directly and continuously disregards my wn perceptions, and defines the evidential criterion of valid statements and assertions. This process turns people inward, as they can often not deny their own own perceptions, and yet, they can't assert themselves validly.

That does not trivialise your ordeal, and I never intended to do that. Your experience of being in prison is obviously much more traumatic. But that doesn't mean it isn't coherent to describe the subject in society as similarly coherced and de-humanised. I do think you're talking about the same fundamental process, and if thats naive, fine, but I haven't just pulled it out of my ass-hole. I've given the subject enough critical thought to be comfortable with my personal synopsis. This isn't entertainment or a whimsical philosophical exercise to me.

Sorry I'm not trying re-define freedom or say that you don't understand it (I realize after reading my posts it could well be interpreted that way.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that most people have a general understanding of what freedom is, they just don't appreciate it. They don't really know that they have it. Some people may be extremely self-absorbed, others less so; but to attribute all self-absorption to a difference in the picture painted by society to that of the individual's perceptions is stretching I feel. Sometimes people can learn from society, other times the injustice of societal norms are there for all to see. A reasonable person should be able to understand that the truth is usually more complex than any one hardline definition or standpoint. The ability to prove people wrong through reason is no more important than the ability to admit you are wrong when your position goes against reason. That is intellectual maturity, and it keeps the seeds of self-absorptive thinking from rooting.

Some people are just lazy and they don't think about their life and the things they have. They think about all of the things they do not have and then try to reason out why they do not have them. The blame for these discrepancies is, of course, rarely accepted by the individual in question. An outside source must be responsible for my unhappiness.

A note on ordering coffee and lazing on the couch. I was merely trying to show that real freedom can only begin when you have physical freedom; the ability to control where you go and what you say. These little things may seem trivial, but trust me they are not. Without these most basic of rights, one realizes how important they actually were and that we could not even contemplate such an interesting discussion as this without our most basic freedoms.

e04bf099

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Sorry I'm not trying re-define freedom or say that you don't understand it (I realize after reading my posts it could well be interpreted that way.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that most people have a general understanding of what freedom is, they just don't appreciate it. They don't really know that they have it. Some people may be extremely self-absorbed, others less so; but to attribute all self-absorption to a difference in the picture painted by society to that of the individual's perceptions is stretching I feel. Sometimes people can learn from society, other times the injustice of societal norms are there for all to see. A reasonable person should be able to understand that the truth is usually more complex than any one hardline definition or standpoint. The ability to prove people wrong through reason is no more important than the ability to admit you are wrong when your position goes against reason. That is intellectual maturity, and it keeps the seeds of self-absorptive thinking from rooting.

Some people are just lazy and they don't think about their life and the things they have. They think about all of the things they do not have and then try to reason out why they do not have them. The blame for these discrepancies is, of course, rarely accepted by the individual in question. An outside source must be responsible for my unhappiness.

A note on ordering coffee and lazing on the couch. I was merely trying to show that real freedom can only begin when you have physical freedom; the ability to control where you go and what you say. These little things may seem trivial, but trust me they are not. Without these most basic of rights, one realizes how important they actually were and that we could not even contemplate such an interesting discussion as this without our most basic freedoms.

I can definitely agree that people don't appreciate their freedom. What I think is important to remember though, is that people's understandings are not seperable from their goals/intentions/projects. Their projects are contingent upon their understandings and their understandings are, in part, determined by their projects. The latter is because their assertions are, in part, determined by their understanding, but they also alter our understanding in a cyclical fashion. I would call this reason, which is most fully developed by the assertions of others, but can function well enough in monologue/soliloquay. That isn't very developed, but maybe you get my drift. Obviously their are restrictions on what counts as valid reasoning, but the indeterminateness, and the lack of a definite terminology, makes those restrictions almost impossible to impose.

So people's concepts of freedom get corrupted and transformed, until what they end up with is a casual nihilism, dressed up academically in neo-liberalism. Some people then deny it altogether, in order to deny the responsibility they have (or a moralist would say they have) for their actions and the consequences of their actions. So what they embrace in a neo-liberal concept of freedom, they deny almost immediately when it comes time to tab-up on the consequences. Hedonists and casual nihilists; there are a lot of them.

When people are really considering society's assertions, or the general consensus critically, then social injustice becomes transparent and obvious. But social injustice is dependant upon the assertions of those who uphold the status quo and the static unreasoned assertions about human interaction. But taken for granted and unsaid, inherent contradictions and inconsistencies cannot be uprooted, which serves to maintain social injustice and the subjugation of certain groups, to the favour of others.

Some people are just lazy and they don't think about their life and the things they have. They think about all of the things they do not have and then try to reason out why they do not have them. The blame for these discrepancies is, of course, rarely accepted by the individual in question. An outside source must be responsible for my unhappiness.

By "discrepencies", I assume you mean, the difference between having and not having, or the idea that the things we fill our lives with, are somehow hugely important in our projects, so not having is almost impeding to our goals and ambitions. So instead of reasoning out the rationality of our goals and ambitions, people blame the lack, as opposed to their own mis-direction, which is often self-absorbed. I hope thats just a different way of saying what you said. You can tell me if its consistent.

With regard to physical freedom, surely this is a mere part of our complex and broad indeterminate, projects. Surely we don't have physical freedom unless we can cause damage to, and control in other ways, our environment. Free-runners control their environment in a fundamental way. Thats why they are so attractive to watch.

I understand that the freedom to move within your environment is taken for granted usually. But I dispute the idea that it is somehow primary. If our projects and interests are fulfilled otherwise (however unlikely and frankly sci-fi that sounds), then we our physical freedom is not so necessary. I can't fly, but I adjust my projects according to my limitations. And if ideas, as I believe, are primary, and our ideas are what manouvre and manipulate the movements and attentions/intentions of others, then, in my opinion, freedom is more fundamentally created by our ideas and our reason than our ability to go to the shop.

Now, obviously to function in the world practically we would need our physical freedom. Otherwise we would be dependant, which is the opposite of free. But I'm arguing against it as a fundamental principle, if that makes any sense.