Sick of being in "friend zone"

LegacyUser

Two years ago I broke up with my then girlfriend. It really upset me at the time especially as the way she ended it was horrible. Anyway, that's not the reason for my post here.

Ever since I've found that girls tend to put me into the "friend zone". I'm never anything more than that. It makes me feel really lonely and undesireable. I don't think I'm bad looking or anything like that... but I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with me. It scares me that I may never meet someone new.

In the past 2 years there has been one that I was interested in and she was interested in me. But only a few days after getting together she called it off. She said at the time that she was not ready to get into a relationship. I believed that at the time. But since then she's been out with other guys. All of which have treated her very very bad. I'm still very good friends with her and now that I do know her better I don't think we're compatable in that way. But the question remains- what's wrong with me? why was she turned off me so quick? Why am I never considered desirable? why would girls go after complete assh0les that treat them terribly but then see me as just a nice guy who is a friend.

Anyone else that I've met that I had some interest in just were completely blind to me. And everytime they would be interested in someone else. It's getting me down. I'm worried that it's starting to affect my self-confidence. I'm beginning to think that people don't really respect me or think that I'm worthwhile.

BumbleB

When you meet girls .if youre interested, straight away you should always lay your cards on the table (in a subtle way) that way you dont waste time.

Wibbs

My 2(00) cents. I agree with BumbleB. If you're interested in someone as a potential girlfriend, aim to attract the girl part first. If she's not attracted to you or you kill that attraction at birth, then it's game over. The friend part should come along naturally anyway if things go well.

I would also agree with BumbleB as far as being subtle. Don't be too full on. Just because you get a date or two, it means little enough(unless its one of those moon in june instant attraction things), so be clear in your actions that you see her as a potential romantic/sexual partner, but don't over cook the heavy emotions. It puts people, especially women off IMH. If you get knocked back, don't stick out the lower lip and go all moody. That's kryptonite to attraction and she'll think less of you. If you appear to accept it, she may not feel it for you, but she'll think much better of you(some women may even "test" you subtly on this one).

Learn to read the signs. Don't buy into the notion that "men can never understand women". It's utter BS and a lazy answer and excuse for failure IMHO*. Again IMHO, there are subtle diffs in how men and women act and react romantically. I would say it's the biggest and about the only difference between the genders as a general thing.

Keep interactions light and fun. Don't get into serious convo at first. Don't get into exes/why you cant find someone/her problems/your problems/your entire life story etc Keep some mystery. That way if she does like the look of you and likes you, she'll want to know more. Nothing can kill attraction more for a woman if she thinks she has you figured out on the first or second date.

Don't try to bribe or buy her. I've seen men do this a lot. Buying drinks all night, expensive presents too early and generally going overboard emotionally. These things are part of a good relationship, but only when it's a relationship and only when she's doing the same for and with you. Very broadly speaking love and romance tends to have a sequence. A set of steps to a relationship(and steps within it too). These come naturally to many and not so naturally to others. Kinda like cooking(:s). A recipe can have many ingredients and those ingredients have to be added in a certain order for any success. If you lob in too much of one ingredient, too early the dish is ruined(I know, I deserve a kicking for that analogy). If you try to bribe or buy her she'll see this very clearly. She may not voice it, even to herself, but she'll feel there's no spark and she'll feel you're like every other guy who does this and there are a lot of them. She'll also reckon correctly too, that you're going way overboard for no good reason. You don't know her as a person, you're only kicking off on the superficial things like how she looks and projecting the rest to get to that.

Another thing I've noted in both genders is that they tend to romance someone the way they'd like to be romanced and assume that's what will work. The "well if he/she did this for me or acted this way I'd be attracted" notion. Try to step back and watch and listen for the cues the other person is giving you. They're there too. I would put good money that in the past women you weren't into gave you signals that they were interested. Signals you spotted fairly easily, but because you weren't pushed you saw them plain as day. Well the women you are interested in give of the same signals, it's just your needs are getting in the way of seeing that.

Accept that many women will just not be attracted to you and there's nothing you can "do" to change their mind. You can't "fix" it. Accept that just because you have the hots for someone, it doesn't follow that she must have the hots for you. Be aware that half the population of this planet are women. Many of whom are looking for someone. Men and women hook up all the time, so if you're consistently striking out, then look more closely at the signals you're giving off. Observe men who appear to find this stuff easy and see what they tend to do. You'll notice that those guys tend to be easygoing, emotionally calm, confident and consistent and they nearly always make their intentions felt by their actions and words.

Plus and very important, no matter how cool/goodlooking/emotionally together/sexy you are sometimes shít just happens. For no real reason someone will think twice. She may not really know why herself, but it's just not happening for her. That's cool too and there are more women and potential partners out there.

TL;DR? The more you learn, the more you'll know. The more you listen, the more you'll hear and spot where you may be going wrong. Good luck




*ditto for women saying the same of men

MIN2511

If it's a first date i expect the man to foot the bill

My 2c

Wibbs

I agree, first date fine(unless she does the asking), but if after that it's not equal then the guy(or gal) should know what to expect and not moan down the line that he/she is seen as a wallet.

G-Money

I think I agree with most of the replies here. I myself tend to fall into the friend zone and I think at least part of the reason is not communicating sexual interest in the woman. I don't necessarily mean putting across to her that I want to bend her over the nearest table. But making it known that I do find her attractive, but not in a sleazy, in your face kind of way. I've found a little cheekiness, and suggestive comments with some innuendo can be effective. But it's very easy to go overboard if you are getting good responses. So it's good to back off a little and change the subject so you don't come on too strong. One step forward, two steps back.

I'm at the stage now though where I basically don't accept being put into the friend zone. What I mean by that is that if I'm interested in a girl, the last thing I want to be is her friend. In my experience, if you accept just being friends at the start but are actually hoping you will end up together, it never happens. It might be different if two people are friends and for whatever reason when they meet each other, they aren't interested. But then later on something happens and they get together. I think that's a more likely scenario.

But if you meet a girl you are interested in and just accept being her friend when you want more, all you get is stories of other guys she likes and it's soul destroying.

The reality is that you don't want to just be friends and she knows that, yet both are pretending it's not true. I don't see the point in setting yourself up to be repeatedly beat over the head by the fact that she'd rather be with someone else.

For me, if they just want to be friends and I don't, I just don't bother staying in touch. There's no point. I know there's some social pressure and just being friends seems to be the "intellectual moral high road". But at the end of the day, you'd never dream of forcing someone to be in a relationship if it made them unhappy. By the same token, why is guilt tripping someone into just being friends any more acceptable? It's not.

If you are genuinely ok with being friends and seeing them off out with other guys, be friends. If you are not, be polite, cut it off and move on.

When it comes to first dates though, I think you should go with whatever you feel is right. If you feel splitting the bill is the right thing to do, do that. If you want to pay for it all, do that. I wouldn't foot the bill though for a date with some girl I realise I don't like that much. Same in a bar on a night out. I don't randomly buy girls drinks. Let them get the first one and you get the next one. Some girls will go around getting free drinks all night then clear off the second they get them.

Don't fork out money until you know they've earned it.

shellyboo

grandmaster wrote: »

I think I agree with most of the replies here. I myself tend to fall into the friend zone and I think at least part of the reason is not communicating sexual interest in the woman. I don't necessarily mean putting across to her that I want to bend her over the nearest table. But making it known that I do find her attractive, but not in a sleazy, in your face kind of way. I've found a little cheekiness, and suggestive comments with some innuendo can be effective. But it's very easy to go overboard if you are getting good responses. So it's good to back off a little and change the subject so you don't come on too strong. One step forward, two steps back.

I'm at the stage now though where I basically don't accept being put into the friend zone. What I mean by that is that if I'm interested in a girl, the last thing I want to be is her friend. In my experience, if you accept just being friends at the start but are actually hoping you will end up together, it never happens. It might be different if two people are friends and for whatever reason when they meet each other, they aren't interested. But then later on something happens and they get together. I think that's a more likely scenario.

Excellent post, and excellent advice. If you don't want to be in the friend zone, don't act like a friend. Act like you fancy her, flirt, and most importantly... ask her out!

Wibbs

grandmaster wrote: »

For me, if they just want to be friends and I don't, I just don't bother staying in touch. There's no point. I know there's some social pressure and just being friends seems to be the "intellectual moral high road". But at the end of the day, you'd never dream of forcing someone to be in a relationship if it made them unhappy. By the same token, why is guilt tripping someone into just being friends any more acceptable? It's not.

Great post and if I had anymore thumbs up I'd look like a texting convention, but this bit really stood out and explains perfectly how I feel too, especially about the high moral ground guff so often spouted by people. Love the comparison with forcing relationships. You're dead right, it's the same.

LegacyUser

I think a comment above about it being soul destroying about someone you are interested in that is now "just friends" starting to speak about other guys is very true. I have taken it very personally and made me very down when I hear about this. It makes me make a judgement on myself. I start to make comparisons with the other guys and about what I lack. Makes me feel really bad.

I had experience of this with the friend I mentioned in the initial post. She started seeing a bloke who was treating her very very badly. That's hard enough for any friend to deal with, advising her to stay away from him etc. But all the time I started to hate myself more and more. Why would she go for a guy like that when I treat people well? I know you'll all now say that "it's her issues" and that's true (as I said I have come to the conclusion at that time I'd not have anything to do with her in a romantic way). But I can't help but feel bad about myself.

I do think I need to distance myself a bit from girls that are friends that I may have or have had an interest in. I get on very well with girls. In fact I find them far easier to get on with then other blokes. I felt that that friend did not really see me in the same way as I would discuss things with her and be totally up front. I think it's time I keep my problems to myself and not tell anyone. It just makes people think less of me.

I disagree with completely cutting off all contact. That's not the way I am. I don't just see women as possible relationships and anything less is not worth anything. I fall for them because I get to know them well. Obviously looks are a part of attraction, but they are not everything.

G-Money

For me, I've no problem with cutting off all contact, especially if it's not someone I know that well. I'm not sure why I'm like that. Maybe I don't value friendships that much, unless it's with someone I've known for a long time. But that's just me. It helps me anyway when I'm trying to get over a girl I like as it really doesn't make me bat an eyelid never seeing her again. I'd rather have that, than be pining away for her in the friend zone and knowing it will never happen.

I was in the friend zone with a girl and I started to like her and she had a boyfriend at the time. To cut a long story short, after she broke up with him, I told her I liked her and she played the friends card. At the time I told her I had moved abroad and I probably told her too soon after the breakup. However I don't think that made any difference and she'd have played the "lets just be friends" card regardless.

Anyway as you can expect I was quite unhappy and it helped being abroad that I didn't have to see her anymore. At the same time I decided the best thing to do was to not contact her, so I didn't. About 5 or 6 months went by and at this stage I think I was over it but I still had no intentions of getting in touch. I just wasn't that bothered. Shortly after she sent me a mail saying hello and asking how I was. I think I was still a bit annoyed at getting shot down, especially as I think she started seeing someone else about a month after she ended it with the last guy which made me think she wasn't as cut up about it being over as she had lead me to believe. But regardless, I was over it and we're kind of back in touch again. Although to be honest I don't make much of an effort to contact her these days and it's usually her who initiates it all. I reckon though even now had she not made contact, I still wouldn't. I just wasn't that bothered. I know I'm not interested in her anymore that way either.

With regards this girl being with someone who treats her bad, some girls just insist on going for the "bad boy". I know there are some who post on this forum who do so by their own admission. When it comes to girls who go for those guys, I don't really have any time for them. It always ends up the same way. The girl goes for the bad boy, it's "exciting" for her for a while, he treats her badly, then she's posting on here asking why and how come she can't meet someone blah blah blah. The stupid thing is that she thought there would ever be any other outcome. There never is.

To be honest you can't control who someone see's, no matter how much of a p***k they are. I know a girl through a friend who is married to a guy and the husband is a complete w****r. And somewhat uniquely, everyone I know who knows him, dislikes him. It's not a case that he gets on well with the guys and treats her bad. Just no-one likes him at all. Yet for some reason she's married to him. If I had to guess I don't think she's genuinely happy and it's a case of "better the devil you know".

Some people just can't hack being on their own and would rather be in any sort of relationship and aren't that choosy as to who they're with. I think that's the only way you can explain people seemingly going from one relationship to another constantly. It's impossible (I think) to regularly meet people you click with.

I guess it's possible you might be too "nice" to girls you are attracted to. I could be the same way. I wouldn't say start being an p***k to them or anything. But don't let them walk all over you and feel free to disagree with them over something if you actually do. I don't mean get into a blazing argument. But have your own opinions and if they differ from hers, so what. Don't change or hide them to appease her or in the hope it will get her to like you more. This is something I've only really discovered myself recently. If you agree with a girl, fair enough, if you don't, that's fair enough too.

Some girls will also "test" guys. Some of them will even go as far as to say they have a boyfriend or something to see how interested you are in them. Personally this is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of in my life. It's like wanting a job, being offered one and turning it down expecting the company to come running back begging you to take it. When I think of that I often wonder why a girl would want the type of a guy who will pursue someone who isn't single. And it makes me wonder about the type of person she is and the type of person she wants to attract. It definitely raises a lot of red flags.

Also, you need to be willing to walk away. If you like the girl and you show her and she's either messing you around and testing you, or it just isn't working, walk away. There are plenty of other girls out there and being willing to walk away and go talk to others will show a lack of neediness on your part. I'm not saying you are needy though.

Sometimes there is a scarcity mentality whereby we think there is a lack of available attractive women. Some girls like this mentality as it makes them feel more secure and makes them feel like they can act whatever way they want and we'll put up with it because there are so few other options. That's not the case. I know myself I've often thought to myself "all the good ones are taken" and it's annoying when it seems to constantly be the case that you can never get with a girl you like.

We are in similar boats dude so I hope things pick up for both of us.

Good luck.

Wibbs

2sumthingmale wrote: »

I think a comment above about it being soul destroying about someone you are interested in that is now "just friends" starting to speak about other guys is very true. I have taken it very personally and made me very down when I hear about this. It makes me make a judgement on myself. I start to make comparisons with the other guys and about what I lack. Makes me feel really bad.

Well if something is making you feel that bad, either try to stop it and look at the reasons why it makes you feel bad, or leave the situation entirely. If you're forcing yourself to stick around while hurting yourself over someone, then that's an issue right there. It's not the other person either. Your feelings are your own.

I had experience of this with the friend I mentioned in the initial post. She started seeing a bloke who was treating her very very badly. That's hard enough for any friend to deal with, advising her to stay away from him etc.

It is, but even with a close mate, I figure it's not my problem, or at least while they're in the middle of it. I will be there for them if they need me and if and when they come out the other side. They'll be quite sure of that, but I also make it clear that I don't want to know if this is consistently unhealthy behaviour and they're just using me as a release valve or a sounding board. I'm a good and solid friend and I'll still be there for them, but not while its still going down. And that's a mate. A woman I was romantically interested in? Never gonna happen. My mates know me well enough to know that if I'm advising a woman on her love life it's a sure sign I've no interest in her romantically whatsoever.

But all the time I started to hate myself more and more.

I suspect that started long before her though and that's maybe what she picked up on and that will be picked up on. Insecurity in men is a turn off for most women. They may not say it, or even believe it, but a very insecure guy is down the totem pole attraction wise. If you constantly hear "you're a lovely guy, but.." or "you're so nice you'll find someone" etc, then that's usually a sign of that. They like you, they want to help you, but they don't want to go out with you or see you romantically.

Why would she go for a guy like that when I treat people well?

Any number of reasons. Her issues, the romantic template she has in her head that he plugs into, some healthy reasons, maybe some unhealthy reasons. The list is looooong, but what it really boils down to IMHO? She fancied him. She was sexually attracted to him. Simple as that. Men will often put up with inordinate crap for the sake of a women that revs their engine and women will do the same. God the crap I've put up with for the sake of a pert bum...:D

I know you'll all now say that "it's her issues" and that's true (as I said I have come to the conclusion at that time I'd not have anything to do with her in a romantic way). But I can't help but feel bad about myself.

Ask yourself why you feel bad about yourself. Are you insecure in general around women? Are you insecure in general? Do you overthink these things? Do you go from one unhealthy attachment to another? I dunno, no one here does, but you know yourself and maybe it's something you cna get help with if it's a theme in your life. IMHO you already felt bad about yourself at a low level. You meet and fall for someone, she doesn't return it(possibly because she spots this insecurity, or for any reason really, even shít happens), this stacks on top of this insecurity and here you are. As I said I dunno, but try and figure it for yourself, so you can meet and fall in love with someone and she with you. You deserve that. Pretty much everyone does.

I do think I need to distance myself a bit from girls that are friends that I may have or have had an interest in. I get on very well with girls. In fact I find them far easier to get on with then other blokes.

Again IMHO, men with a lot of women mates who they have fancied in the past are setting themselves up for failure. They get too used to acting like other women mates. What do women want in a romantic/sexual partner? A man. They have mates already. I'm not saying they're looking for captain caveman. Not at all, but they're looking for a man, not anther woman friend. I'm also not saying you can't be a friend to a lover. Indeed you have to be, but you have to give her a different angle on friendship compared to her non sexual mates. She's looking for a partner. An equal partner. Someone with a different take. Get that and she'll want t be all over you like a cheap suit. IMHO 90% of the relationship problems women have with men is because they feel always in the driving seat. Always making the running. It's unequal. They dont want someone ordering them about or any of that guff, they want an equal partner to share their lives with.

I felt that that friend did not really see me in the same way as I would discuss things with her and be totally up front. I think it's time I keep my problems to myself and not tell anyone. It just makes people think less of me.

Yep, because you're advertising your problems. This next bit may sound harsh, even genderist;) and I may get flamed for it.... IMHO If you're looking for a woman to listen to all your problems and still find you attractive, you're on a hiding to nowhere. It's not her "job". She'll help alright and be glad to, but she'll see you as weak, or at least she won't be in a rush to jump your bones. She'll wonder how you'll be if the shíte hits the fan for her, or something serious shows up down the line for both of you. She would be right too. If you can't handle yourself and your issues, how will you handle things if it gets rough? If you're in a relationship and when you need support and you want to share the burden with your partner that's great, it's damn near a requirement, but not at the start. IMHO again men are generally more open to listening to a GF's problems and trying to "fix" them, than the other way around. It makes them feel useful:D. Women may often complain about their BF not sharing his feelings enough(and thats not good either in the extreme), but they're more likely to snuggle up to a man like that, than one who never bloody stops.

If you have issues as a man then sort them yourself. Confide in mates, not lovers. If that doesn't work maybe take the professional help route. Be a good man first, an emotionally consistent and strong man first. A man who takes responsibility for his own life and emotions. Do that and you could look like quasimodo, but you'll have no shortage of women who find you attractive. They know its not that common a set of traits and they'll go through stages of bad boys and nice guys looking for that. TBH I am damn glad Im not a woman for that reason alone.

I disagree with completely cutting off all contact. That's not the way I am. I don't just see women as possible relationships and anything less is not worth anything. I fall for them because I get to know them well.

And I agree. I have a lot of women mates. Bloody glad of same too, but IMHO you're getting this backwards. You're looking for a girlfriend, but going the wrong way. Attract the "girl" part first and the "friend" bit follows. It rarely happens the other way, unless the woman has a spark of a attraction for you to start with. Or you are mates, don't see each other for a while, meet up again and then she thinks "oh hang on!". I can think of very very very few scenarios where that wasn't the case when friends got together. Far more men and women drunkenly hook up at parties and clubs, than ever do it via the mates route. The former sounds illogical and the latter more logical. You would think that if you were desinging the best route to a lasting relationship, then knowing each other really well first would be the way to go about it. It seems it's not though. What does that tell you? It tells me that it's all down to the attraction and horniness and of course compatibility. Friendship comes later.

Obviously looks are a part of attraction, but they are not everything.

Agreed, but if you thought of her as ugly, would you take the next step nearly as quickly? Well "ugly" or unattractive is not just physical. In a man, insecurity, over egging the emotions too early, being overly passive, being needy are not attractive. It's not far off the equivalent of a man expecting Kelly Brook to show up for a date and Jabba the hut showing up instead. Jabba may have a lovely personality, but something won't click for you. Now think from the woman's point of view. She meets you briefly, you ask her out, she is attracted to you enough to say yes, so clearly thats not your issue. She is expecting one thing, but the more she chats with you the more she thinks Jabba the hut and something won't click for her.

This is fixable in you though. Very. Examine your own life and emotional life. Seek to change. Get help if you need it. Build the better OP and the women will follow and the healthy relationships will follow. As I said clued in, strong and emotionally consistent men are rare enough.

My rambling 2 cents anyway.

scanlas

The free ebook below is a fantastic read and down to earth for your average guy. Give it a read.

http://www.sinnsofattraction.com/game_download2/Game_Acceleration_2_02.pdf

opinion guy

Seriously is that more pick up artist BS Scanlas ? don't waste your time OP

OP you want to be better at getting the girl. One thing you can do that makes a huge difference. Learn to dance. a) you will meet girls in the dance class and b) when you are out and about being able to dance and confidentally swing a lass around a dance floor.


But to your post

I disagree with completely cutting off all contact. That's not the way I am. I don't just see women as possible relationships and anything less is not worth anything. I fall for them because I get to know them well. Obviously looks are a part of attraction, but they are not everything.

I am similar to you in this. I can cut people off but if i really like someone i don't like to do it. But i DO suffer for it. But I recognise that thats my choice.

I do think I need to distance myself a bit from girls that are friends that I may have or have had an interest in. I get on very well with girls. In fact I find them far easier to get on with then other blokes. I felt that that friend did not really see me in the same way as I would discuss things with her and be totally up front. I think it's time I keep my problems to myself and not tell anyone. It just makes people think less of me.

Completely disagree with you here. don't bottle things up. just get better at selecting who you open up to, and also make a distinction between being open as a friend, and being open as a lover.
Look to be honest I think you were her friend, she wasn't yours. she knew how you felt. she was basically using you (thou she may not have realised she was using you - some people are very selfinvolved and don't always realise the effect they have on others). to be honest i tend to see cutting people off as a bit histrionic - well if you know them well at least,not so if they randomers. recognise that as a friend she has limited qualities. And maybe think about finding a better way to select out your friends (if it makes you feel any better i've made this exact same mistake).

scanlas

Opinion guy, word of advice, read books before you review them.

opinion guy

lol scanlas - thats a fair cop.

but i ain't downloading anything from a link to www-dot-sinsofattraction-dot-com on an internet forum :P

Keewee6

[quote=[Deleted User];62411384]Ah the friend zone.....I dont want to be your friend I want to ride ye. Do I look like I need friends? See them lads over there? They're me friends.[/QUOTE]

class and the truth - love it:D:D

Wibbs

Actually though crassly put like Keewee6 said Juelz Elegant Potassium is way closer to the truth than a lot may think or admit. Men and women like honesty. I think women are more sensitive to it, because they've been approached so many times since puberty by a long line of guys spinning yarns to get into their pants. The guy who wants to get romantic with a woman but aims to be her friend first is all too often being dishonest and they spot that. They see he's being dishonest with her and also with himself. Big turn off.

Keewee6

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually though crassly put like Keewee6 said Juelz Elegant Potassium is way closer to the truth than a lot may think or admit. Men and women like honesty. I think women are more sensitive to it, because they've been approached so many times since puberty by a long line of guys spinning yarns to get into their pants. The guy who wants to get romantic with a woman but aims to be her friend first is all too often being dishonest and they spot that. They see he's being dishonest with her and also with himself. Big turn off.

so how do u you change a situation from being "friends" with women you're friends with and being stuck in "that zone" to tryiing to persue a relationship - plus sometimes you just end up in the friend zone not out of choice - now HOW to stop falling in there

Wibbs

Keewee6 wrote: »

so how do u you change a situation from being "friends" with women you're friends with and being stuck in "that zone" to tryiing to persue a relationship

Mostly you can't. She has put you in the mates box and that's very very hard to get out of. Now some may say "I know so and so and they were mates first" etc, but IMHO there was a spark on the womans side and it has to be there or forget about it. Either at the start, where he was put in the "hmmm maybe" box, or there has been a gap where they didn't see each other for a while and he comes back and she goes "hmmmm how did I miss this the first time?". Outside of that IMHO it's v rare.

- plus sometimes you just end up in the friend zone not out of choice - now HOW to stop falling in there

Simply by not acting like one of her friends. Basically treat her like a woman you like not someone you like who happens to be a woman. I don't mean you shouldn't be friendly, but there's a difference. The second you feel you may fancy someone, let her know. By actions not words. Be flirty around and with her. Don't get into deep friends type convos. Ask her out. Let her know your romantic intentions. That kinda thing. Like I said in the first page, you would think that logic would tell you that if you were designing a way for two people to become long term compatible partners, then getting to know each other as mates first would be the way to go. But actually look around and you find that's not the case. People hook up all the time. Mostly quite quickly and mostly not knowing a damn thing about the other person. A lot meet up in clubs, or at parties etc drunk out of their heads and end up married down the line. Or they meet someone new through mates or work and again that happens quite quickly actually. The sexual/romantic "spark" has to be there and in most cases it's there first or following very closely behind getting to know the person.

Look at how women in general talk about falling in love. Look at the notion of love at first sight. I would say more women believe in that than men or at least comment on it. Objectively that's based on nothing but physical attraction and a template in your head matching the other person. It can't be anything else unless you believe in fate and such like that. Women also use the "spark" word way more than men. They meet a guy and bang! they feel fireworks or the spark. Again that's based on attraction. It can't be based on anything else in the majority of cases. They don't know the guy yet. Look at any romantic flic primarily aimed at and written by women, or romance stories aimed at and written by women. You'll see similar patterns of instant attraction/mysterious stranger/eyes across a room/butterflies in the stomach/I can't figure him out/all the women fancy him/spark/love at first sight/carried away by my feelings descriptions. I'm pretty sure there are few enough mills and boon type novellas that go along the lines of "I met this guy, he seemed nice and I got to know all about him and I knew he fancied me for years, he was a good friend and then we fell in love". If there are then I'd put good money there is also a Whammo! moment of the spark kicking off. OK mills and boon and the like are hardly scientific insight:D but their popularity across many cultures says to me at least that there is something going on there.

ash23

Wibbs wrote: »

Basically treat her like a woman you like not someone you like who happens to be a woman. I don't mean you shouldn't be friendly, but there's a difference. The second you feel you may fancy someone, let her know. By actions not words. Be flirty around and with her. Don't get into deep friends type convos. Ask her out. Let her know your romantic intentions.

+ billions!


Guys never seem to ask girls out. It sucks. It seems to be an age thing. I'm mid 20s and the closest I get to a date is "are you going to be here next saturday night?". My older friends seem to get proper "would you like to do x,y,z".

If a guy doesn't ask me out then I assume he doesn't like me. Lunging at me when drunk is not asking me out nor is grabbing my arse.
I assume that a guy does this because he's drunk and horny as opposed to actually liking me.
Girls can be quite insecure really. The portrayal of us here is that we are all sure of our own beauty and know that guys like us. The reality is we are never convinced that a guy likes us unless he tells us. Even then we might doubt it.

But don't be too eager either. I was talking to a guy one night and he brought me over to his family in the pub. I met him a week later and he said to my friend "oh poor ash met all the future in laws, eh, I mean my family". I hadn't even kissed him. So I knew he was interested, he made it very clear but in a creepy, get away from him while you still can, sort of way

scanlas

ash23 wrote: »

+ billions!


Guys never seem to ask girls out. It sucks. It seems to be an age thing. I'm mid 20s and the closest I get to a date is "are you going to be here next saturday night?". My older friends seem to get proper "would you like to do x,y,z".

If a guy doesn't ask me out then I assume he doesn't like me. Lunging at me when drunk is not asking me out nor is grabbing my arse.
I assume that a guy does this because he's drunk and horny as opposed to actually liking me.
Girls can be quite insecure really. The portrayal of us here is that we are all sure of our own beauty and know that guys like us. The reality is we are never convinced that a guy likes us unless he tells us. Even then we might doubt it.

But don't be too eager either. I was talking to a guy one night and he brought me over to his family in the pub. I met him a week later and he said to my friend "oh poor ash met all the future in laws, eh, I mean my family". I hadn't even kissed him. So I knew he was interested, he made it very clear but in a creepy, get away from him while you still can, sort of way

Generally speaking, a woman will see guys in a negative light such as weird or creepy if they show a level of interest in her which she feels she didn't earn. Her body gives her emotions which makes her want to stay away from him. This is expressed in terms such as creepy or weird. Reason being her body wants her to mate with a guy with options.

opinion guy

Wibbs wrote: »

People hook up all the time. Mostly quite quickly and mostly not knowing a damn thing about the other person. A lot meet up in clubs, or at parties etc drunk out of their heads and end up married down the line.

LOL - the typical Irish love story. Not the same in other countreis/cultures I find.

scanlas wrote: »

Generally speaking, a woman will see guys in a negative light such as weird or creepy if they show a level of interest in her which she feels she didn't earn. Her body gives her emotions which makes her want to stay away from him. This is expressed in terms such as creepy or weird. Reason being her body wants her to mate with a guy with options.

Um interesting interpretation there scanlas. I think referring to your family as future in laws to someone you've never even kissed as quite intense and weird.

Wibbs

opinion guy wrote: »

LOL - the typical Irish love story. Not the same in other countreis/cultures I find.

True, but remove the drunk bit and it's still a very common way for men and women to hook up(excluding societies where the sexes are strictly separated for cultural reasons)

BumbleB

opinion guy wrote: »

LOL - the typical Irish love story. Not the same in other countreis/cultures I find.



.

Your mindset is all thats wrong here dude .

G-Money

Never accept friendship from a woman that you want more from. If what you want is to have to hang around her and pretend you don't want to be with her and fake interest/happiness at her going off f****g other guys, by all means do. But all you will be is miserable and inevitably you'll realise that you shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place. Save yourself a few months of misery and just walk away when the friends word is mentioned.

However be prepared for her to be angry that she's not getting her way. Lots of girls have played the friends card successfully before and are chuffed about it. So they can become quite put out that you are refusing to accept it and that they aren't getting their way.

opinion guy

BumbleB wrote: »

Your mindset is all thats wrong here dude .

Really? Please do enlighten me then

BumbleB

opinion guy wrote: »

Really? Please do enlighten me then

Grandmaster and Wibbs is spot on .


You sounded like beaten man right from the outset, and to hold on to this situation will cause you more annoyance ,so right now you need to walk away or at least cool the whole thing .Don't meet the lady in question for 2 weeks solid, see what happens then.

Dont be afraid to walk away . I'd say at least 80% of the posters here had to walk away from a relationship at some stage even though it broke their heart to do so. Move on and the next time you meet a girl don't talk to her like her brother. That way you wont be in the friend's zone.

look at this guy ,watch the way he avoids the friends zone its so crass but effective.He's also hammered ,Its worth a look cause she is
fit.


SNIP

G-Money

I swear, I have received so many "lets just be friends" cards that I've got a few decks of them.

Looking back now I thought it was the right thing to do at the time. You feel this invisible pressure to be friends. You feel like you are forced into it as it's the grown up, mature thing to do.

Think of it this way. Imagine a girl you like, you are really into her and she says "lets just be friends". What is your first reaction to that? I'll tell you what it is "Ah f*** no, that's the last thing I want"

In this case, your first reaction is the one you should be focusing on and listening to.

Once she plays the friends card, it's game over. You can sit around and watch her off out with other guys and listen to her talking about them. She doesn't need you to be there as some sort of male cheerleader, willing her on to be with someone else.

Just save yourself a load of pain and hurt and make a clean break now.

opinion guy

BumbleB wrote: »

Grandmaster and Wibbs is spot on .


You sounded like beaten man right from the outset, and to hold on to this situation will cause you more annoyance ,so right now you need to walk away or at least cool the whole thing .Don't meet the lady in question for 2 weeks solid, see what happens then.

Dont be afraid to walk away . I'd say at least 80% of the posters here had to walk away from a relationship at some stage even though it broke their heart to do so. Move on and the next time you meet a girl don't talk to her like her brother. That way you wont be in the friend's zone.

look at this guy ,watch the way he avoids the friends zone its so crass but effective.He's also hammered ,Its worth a look cause she is
fit.

OK Bumblebee I'm not the OP. You ahven't answerd the question I asked and I don't see what that video has to do with anything. If I were a mod I'd be smacking you for off topic posting.

Please reread the thread and if you have something useful to contribute by all means we'd love to here it

Wagon

[quote=[Deleted User];62411384]Ah the friend zone.....I dont want to be your friend I want to ride ye. Do I look like I need friends? See them lads over there? They're me friends.[/QUOTE]
Class Completly true as well.

Wibbs

BumbleB, opinion guy is not the OP, so please keep this on topic and no Youtube links please.

opinion guy if you have an issue with a post please use the report post button. Thanks.

Keewee6

The second you feel you may fancy someone, let her know. By actions not words.

what actions exactly:eek:

ash23

Keewee6 wrote: »

what actions exactly:eek:

Eh, flirt with her? Ask her for her number and use it to ask her on a date. When you see her tell her she looks pretty. Let her catch you looking at her in an appreciative way. Let her see you checking her out without being a sleaze. When you're talking to her touch her arm occasionally. Sit close to her.

Loads of ways you can make it obvious you are interested without being creepy or weird

Wibbs

grandmaster wrote: »

I swear, I have received so many "lets just be friends" cards that I've got a few decks of them.

Looking back now I thought it was the right thing to do at the time. You feel this invisible pressure to be friends. You feel like you are forced into it as it's the grown up, mature thing to do.

Think of it this way. Imagine a girl you like, you are really into her and she says "lets just be friends". What is your first reaction to that? I'll tell you what it is "Ah f*** no, that's the last thing I want"

In this case, your first reaction is the one you should be focusing on and listening to.

Once she plays the friends card, it's game over. You can sit around and watch her off out with other guys and listen to her talking about them. She doesn't need you to be there as some sort of male cheerleader, willing her on to be with someone else.

Pretty much.

Actually lets reverse it and look at it a slightly different way. Most people want what they can't have to some degree or other depending on the person. If you meet a woman and she's friendly but not overly flirty, if as a guy you tell her "lets just be friends" many will ramp up their attention and flirtation, even if they were only slightly curious before. The "what do you mean lets be mates, aren't I good enough for you?" bit comes in. I reckon a similar thing under the surface is going on. I want what I can't have.

By saying lets be friends you're actually saying you've thought about it and reckon, you're nice enough, but nope not interested, I'm looking for "better", so I'll reject you as a romantic partner. Men miss the rejection bit and figure "oh if she sees the real me I can fix this over time". Nope, you're being rejected and that's cool by the way. That's her right. You just don't float her boat. Harsh if you've invested emotional energy into her, but there it is and there are plenty of women who wont reject you. Another damn good reason to make your feelings felt early on. That way you dont spend months moping and investing emotional energy for no return and although harsh, a lot less harsh than getting in too deep.

Wibbs

ash23 wrote: »

Loads of ways you can make it obvious you are interested without being creepy or weird

Agreed and it seems obvious, but I would also say many a man with little experience of this kind of stuff can often appear creepy or weird.

Like anything if this doesn't come to a guy "naturally", practice is required. I've known guys who were anything but creepy come across that way with women. They were insecure in that arena and didn't know how to come across. The touching thing is one example. They usually under/overdo it and/or come across as awkward when doing it. Actually creepy and weird to a woman could well be translated into a socially and sexually(in the context of male female interaction) awkward man. The older he is the more this will affect his chances too. Gauche and awkward is "cute" and somewhat expected in a 15yr old guy but not in a 25 yr old guy. By acting like that he's telling her "I'm clueless. I don't understand women and have little experience". Not very attractive to most women.

So if you just tell a guy stop being creepy or weird it doesn't help him really. May make him worse as he gets even more insecure. Practice is the thing. Practice talking to people full stop. Men and women. Listen, chat, have a laugh. Observe others who are better than they are and copy them and bring that into their own way of doing things, their own personality.

Wibbs

sunflower27 wrote: »

+1

Re the float your boat - many people (men and women) go for the cruise ship Titanic when there are plenty of lovely dinghys everywhere.

FYP.

Yep while I wouldn't suggest as far as men and women go that you should cut your cloth to your measure, there is something to that. People have types and people also have types they tend to attract. Those types can be quite variable, but don't flog a dead horse. Goes double for men. They see a nice bum or whatever and ignore everything else including their basic personality and whether they've any chance(for any number of reasons).

ash23

Well obviously don't do something that you don't feel comfortable or natural doing. I remember one guy sort of punching me on my arm a couple of times like he was with one of the lads. It was so embarassing and awkward. Punching is a no no. A gentle placement of the hand on the arm for a couple of seconds is fine. And only do it once or twice. If she isn't touching you back then stop doing it.


See the thing is, while I appreciate that some guys might be socially awkward, some guys are just plain sleazy and creepy. I can usually tell when someone is just being awkward and when they are being a bit odd.

Like above, practice. Just talk to people. Watch how they interact with each other (but don't stare - creepy territory), watch how girls flirt with the guys they like. Observe the signals. The hair touching, the giggling like idiots, the big genuine smiles as opposed to the pretend ones, the way they lean towards the guy they like.....And watch how the guys respond.Once you get the gist of the signals that girls and guys give off when they are flirting, start using them.

Oh and another tip. Girls love talking about themselves We like it a lot.
So when talking to a girl, ask her questions and let her answer them. And then ask her questions or reference what she has just said (shows you were listening). Again, there's a balance. Don't fire questions at her. And don't get hot and heavy on the topics.

For eg questions to be asked "where are you from, whats it like there, what course are you doing in college, see any good films lately, did you go to Oxegen, electric picnic,anywhere on holidays this year" etc.

Not good questions "how long have you been single, why did you break up with your ex, how much do you earn, is that your natural hair colour, can I check?, did I tell you about my ex girlfriend, are your friends hot"


You get the idea............... :P