No White Person Has Ever Broken 10 Seconds in the 100 Meters

Captain Furball

Why are white people so slow? How is it possible that there are a billion Caucasians and not a single one can break 10 seconds?

buck65

Just don't feel like it.

Domer

Similarly with the 5000m and the 13 minute barrier. I think only about 4 non-africans have broken 13 mins. 2 Americans this year, Bobby Kennedy and I think Dieter Bowman (Could be completely wrong on the names).

magicianz

Black people have different muscle formation in the legs which allows them to run faster. Dont ask me what its called or where or who i am but thats the reason i have been told :pac:

helimachoptor

If you look at 2 runners at the same age one black and one night 99% of the time the black guy is much more muscular than the white guy who tends to be a leaner, this this means the black guy is heavier but he can use those bigger muscles to run a lot faster

Reaganomical

Domer wrote: »

Similarly with the 5000m and the 13 minute barrier. I think only about 4 non-africans have broken 13 mins. 2 Americans this year, Bobby Kennedy and I think Dieter Bowman (Could be completely wrong on the names).

Off topic, but Dathen Ritzenhein's 12.56 run this year was something else.

robinph

It's more specific than just black or white, you won't find any Kenyans wining the 100m for instance. There was a program on Colin Jackson a while ago where they went and traced his genettic make up, and found a really unusual number or fast twitch muscle fibres in his legs. He was supposedly from some where west africa, via jamaca, and then a couple of native american tribes as well and I think they were almost suggesting that combination of genetics is why you get more carribean sprinters than you do from the parts of africa that they would claim to be originally from.

--amadeus--

magicianz wrote: »

Black people have different muscle formation in the legs which allows them to run faster. Dont ask me what its called or where or who i am but thats the reason i have been told :pac:

What are you talking about? Muscle is muscle. You can have different proportions of Type I and Type II fibres but that is not primarily a race determined factor. What kind of muscle structure? At what level - cellular or physiological?

And if we can't ask you what it's called (because you have just come in and thrown a piece of unsubstantiated and unverifiable nonsense into the conversation) then why bother?

helimachoptor wrote: »

If you look at 2 runners at the same age one black and one night 99% of the time the black guy is much more muscular than the white guy who tends to be a leaner, this this means the black guy is heavier but he can use those bigger muscles to run a lot faster

That is just complete twaddle.

Noakes in the Lore of running discusses race and how it impacts running performance, it's a good jump of point for anyone interested in the subject. And any discussion of this sort that doesn't include environmental and social / economic factors is going to be wide of the mark (after all many sports are now dominated by black athletes). A good open and referenced discussion would be welcome.

But any un-sourced rubbish or anything that can be interpreted as racist or trolling will get an instant ban

shels4ever

Captain Furball wrote: »

Why are white people so slow? How is it possible that there are a billion Caucasians and not a single one can break 10 seconds?

Just stick a Yet after you post, It will happen jsut hasnt happend yet.

Racing Flat

Domer wrote: »

Similarly with the 5000m and the 13 minute barrier. I think only about 4 non-africans have broken 13 mins. 2 Americans this year, Bobby Kennedy and I think Dieter Bowman (Could be completely wrong on the names).

Craig Mottram?

mcdonrob

Captain Furball wrote: »

Why are white people so slow? How is it possible that there are a billion Caucasians and not a single one can break 10 seconds?

I reckon Eddie Izzard could do it:)

RJM22

This is the most ignorant thread I've ever seen about sprinting. You make a common misconception which could be akin to stating that all blondes are taller than brunnettes.

IMO it's probably a mix of both nature and nurture. Sure genetically, West Africans and Caribbeans are more likely to have more type2(a) fibres, but I don't think this will stop any white sprinter from breaking the 10second barrier.

There are/was some very good white sprinters. Alan Wells who was an Olympic Gold Medalist in the 100m. Also, Pietra Mennea held the 200m World record for 17 years until Michael Johnson broke it. 10.1 is Alan Wells record and many have reached 10flat (W/A) and that includes Japanese Sprinters. We also have our own Paul Hession, Derval O'Rouke and David Gillick - all World Class Athlete's competing with Irish genetics and succeeding at the Olympic and World Championship arenas.

I think it really comes down to nurture. Clyde Hart's opinion was that a white athlete is more likely to pick a sport of their (sub)culture, for example Golf or Tennis as their route. The current Jamaican outliers are brought up in a country with a VERY strong athletics tradition.( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwibekiUBrA ). If we had all the GAA players competing in Athletics instead, in a similar system to the Jamaicans school system or the US Collegiate system then I think We'd see more a couple more white sprinters.

Even if this sounds like a weak argument, I think it could simply be that more black athletes do the sprints than white and so it is more likely that the best sprinters will be black. If it was the other way around I'm sure you would have a similar outcome. (ie. best could be white).

gerard65

I heard that all Kilkenny people have a special genes which allow them to play hurling better than anyone else. Same as Kerrymen in football. Don't know if its true, but a man in a pub told me this.

caseyann

<snipped and banned. When we want Bernard Manning in here we'll invite him. (And yes, I know he's dead)>

RJM22

you deserve to

helimachoptor

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That is just complete twaddle.

Noakes in the Lore of running discusses race and how it impacts running performance, it's a good jump of point for anyone interested in the subject. And any discussion of this sort that doesn't include environmental and social / economic factors is going to be wide of the mark (after all many sports are now dominated by black athletes). A good open and referenced discussion would be welcome.

But any un-sourced rubbish or anything that can be interpreted as racist or trolling will get an instant ban

It's not racist and frankly I'm insulted by your insinuation. From my own lay persons opinion of every 100m/200m race I have seen the black guys and as said above usually American/Caribbean power ahead of every white guy. And from my own experience of playing soccer with quite a few black guys generally they are bigger built in the upper body and can sprint a lot faster.

super_furry

Is it not just a case that certain races are better at certain sports? There's not many Asian sprinters or black swimmers.

robinph

Various people wrote:

I think it really comes down to nurture.

Do people really believe this, or are we just scared of admitting that there are genuine differences genetically between people originating from different parts of the globe for fear of being accused of being un-PC?

gerard65

It's not racist and frankly I'm insulted by your insinuation. From my own lay persons opinion of every 100m/200m race I have seen the black guys and as said above usually American/Caribbean power ahead of every white guy. And from my own experience of playing soccer with quite a few black guys generally they are bigger built in the upper body and can sprint a lot faster.

So Afro-americians should dominate Baseball. But they don't. Your theory kinda falls down there.

Stark

robinph wrote: »

Do people really believe this, or are we just scared of admitting that there are genuine differences genetically between people originating from different parts of the globe for fear of being accused of being un-PC?

Next you'll be saying that people from other parts of the world are more likely to have darker skin. Racist.

robinph

gerard65 wrote: »

So Afro-americians should dominate Baseball. But they don't. Your theory kinda falls down there.

But that is where the social and economic reasons come into play. There are few economic reasons for someone to not get opportunities to take part in running events. It does take more social and economic influences to get involved in other sports like golf or tennis though, which is why Tiger and the Williams sisters are still so unusual in those sports.

caseyann

Stark wrote: »

Next you'll be saying that people from other parts of the world are more likely to have darker skin. Racist.

Thats not racist How is someone commenting that genetically people have different abilities then others.


Any hows i have heard they have different skeletal structure there fore larger muscle mass in legs.But who know could be they want it more.

RJM22

Look it's not going to be one contributing factor - it's a whole myriad of stuff. When I refer to nurture, I'm talking about athletics as a sporting tradition / facilities / coaching infrastructure. Actually that's a good point.

Why are all the best coaches in the world on the other side of the Atlantic? Hmmm Charlie Francis....John Smith....Clyde Hart....Glen Mills? Oh wait - Genetics!

And no it's not being PC - it's being realistic.

helimachoptor

gerard65 wrote: »

It's not racist and frankly I'm insulted by your insinuation. From my own lay persons opinion of every 100m/200m race I have seen the black guys and as said above usually American/Caribbean power ahead of every white guy. And from my own experience of playing soccer with quite a few black guys generally they are bigger built in the upper body and can sprint a lot faster.

So Afro-americians should dominate Baseball. But they don't. Your theory kinda falls down there.

Actually it doesn't, you can be as big built as you want but if you can hit the ball when its thrown it makes no difference.

I have no stats to back this up.. but from my own view of watching purely American sports. some sites say 90% of professional basketball players are black. Now it could be that genetically more black guys grow taller than white guys.

American football the black guy are the RBs, DE, TE everything that involves being super physical. There aren't many (if any black QBs) not sure why though.

In saying that the amount of non whites in Ice hockey is pretty much non existent.

Even if you look at soccer in the UK and to a lesser extent hIreland black guys are gradually gaining a bigger percentage of the team.

Chelsea: Kalou, Malouda, Drogba, Anelka, Essien, A Cole, etc

Even in Ireland you can see the sheer amount if black kids playing soccer (due to immigration) but if you put 2 kids aged 12 one black one white in a sprint 9 out of 10 times the black kid will win. Give it and the Dublin team will be mostly black guaranteed. The international rules series will be a lot more interesting then.


I am not racist and frankly I'd much prefer to watch Drogba/Anelka/Defoe than Keane/Crouch.


Power and pace and Skill Vs Awkwardness and good luck!

RJM22

I thought we were talking about the 10 second barrier here?

robinph

Don't know much about any of the coaches, but I'm guessing they are mostly in the US and not Jamaica though?

RJM22

Glen Mills is Jamaican and Caribbean descent.
Clyde Hart is Texas and White.
John Smith is LA based and Black.
Charlie Francis is Canadian and White.

Togther they've coached the best sprinters in the World over the last 2 decades. Just backing up my Nurture argument.

pickarooney

I've never been able to figure out how exactly you coach someone to run fast in a straight line. What makes a good sprint coach?

robinph

Those would all be "performing" well based more on the economic aspects then with them being mostly from North America. Just to be clear though I'm not doubting the nurture side of things one little bit, just that there is also the genetic (and therefore race) aspect as well which people seem to be scared of acknowledging.

Auvers

what about swimming I cant think of any black guys being top swimmers,

why

caseyann

helimachoptor wrote: »

Actually it doesn't, you can be as big built as you want but if you can hit the ball when its thrown it makes no difference.

I have no stats to back this up.. but from my own view of watching purely American sports. some sites say 90% of professional basketball players are black. Now it could be that genetically more black guys grow taller than white guys.

American football the black guy are the RBs, DE, TE everything that involves being super physical. There aren't many (if any black QBs) not sure why though.

In saying that the amount of non whites in Ice hockey is pretty much non existent.

Even if you look at soccer in the UK and to a lesser extent hIreland black guys are gradually gaining a bigger percentage of the team.

Chelsea: Kalou, Malouda, Drogba, Anelka, Essien, A Cole, etc

Even in Ireland you can see the sheer amount if black kids playing soccer (due to immigration) but if you put 2 kids aged 12 one black one white in a sprint 9 out of 10 times the black kid will win. Give it and the Dublin team will be mostly black guaranteed. The international rules series will be a lot more interesting then.


I am not racist and frankly I'd much prefer to watch Drogba/Anelka/Defoe than Keane/Crouch.


Power and pace and Skill Vs Awkwardness and good luck!

Incorrect growing up any Black kids i raced against played basketball against i won every time :cool:

I watched a whole load of kids on sports day last year.Not one single black kid won Irish and polish only.That kinda wrecks that one for you doesn't it And that was all age groups!

shels4ever

Auvers wrote: »

what about swimming I cant think of any black guys being top swimmers,

why

You forget eric the eel...

Racing Flat

Auvers wrote: »

what about swimming I cant think of any black guys being top swimmers,

why

Greater bone density, less fat, therefore they have less buoyancy.

Stark

caseyann wrote: »

Thats not racist How is someone commenting that genetically people have different abilities then others.

Sorry, was being sarcastic.

robinph

Racing Flat wrote: »

Greater bone density, less fat, therefore they have less buoyancy.

I had reason to hear that theory many years ago, but belive it has since been proved to be rubbish.

http://blackathlete.net/artman2/publish/Swimming_34/Where_Are_the_Black_Swimmers.shtml

Misperceptions about blacks and swimming have existed for years. In 1969, a study published by Ohio University titled "The Negro and Learning How to Swim" concluded that black people have a biological makeup which made them less buoyant than white people. The study has since been nullified, but a racial divide persists.

The "reason" that I had for hearing that theory though could never swim very well, that was not down to any social or economic reason though, just a lack of interest on his part as he was better at the running.

scottreynolds

RJM22 wrote: »

This is the most ignorant thread I've ever seen about sprinting.

Lets not blame anyone here. the opener still has a valid point and question. I mean the fact is that no white person has broken 10 seconds for 100 metres. I accept that people may say nature v nuture but is genetic advantage not a large part of it. I don't agree necessarily that people will choose a sport of their culture. Surely the Jamacian population or sprinters isn't much different to the American population of sprinters

Does anyone have referenced studies pointing out one way or the other?

caseyann

Stark wrote: »

Sorry, was being sarcastic.

Sorry missed that

robinph

scottreynolds wrote: »

Does anyone have referenced studies pointing out one way or the other?

I think it may have been in one of the docus about Colin Jackson again, but I seem to remember a bit in it where he went through a list of the top X sprinters and found that they mostly came from the Caribbean or USA and the odd on or two from west Africa. What was actually even more significant though was that your date of birth plays a much more significant role in if you are good at sport, or anything for that matter.

Being born between September and the end of December and you are much more likely to be successful in sports. The chance success then tails off throughout the rest of the year based on your birthday to there being basically zero international athletes born in August. All down to when the academic year starts and if your bigger/ faster/ stronger than the rest of your classmates or not.

CaoimheX

robinph wrote: »

Those would all be "performing" well based more on the economic aspects then with them being mostly from North America. Just to be clear though I'm not doubting the nurture side of things one little bit, just that there is also the genetic (and therefore race) aspect as well which people seem to be scared of acknowledging.

I agree, it is a known fact that the genetic makeup of humans originating from western africa have a predisposition to be potentially fast/powerful sprinters. Their skin colour has nothing to do with it being fast, it is region based, their skin colour is only a matter of consequence(evolving in a hot clime).
The pygmie tribe from central africa who are an average 4 ft tall, would not make good sprinters( but they are also black) Skin colour again has no defining contribution, so it is inaccurate to broadly state black people are faster but as above humans of western african origin have the genetic advantage
And no, this is not racist to discuss it is just fact

thirtyfoot

I don't think its racist to be talking about this. Its true if you look at the ranking lists for the 100m. It has more to do with genetics than nurture. Black athletes are naturally faster than white athletes. Yes, nurture has a part to play but if the raw materials aren't there then no level of world class coaching will get you to the top in the world. The Russians could never crack it and I'm sure they left no stone unturned in their attempts. It doesn't mean that all black people are faster, I've seen many black kids get beaten by white kids here in Ireland but generally I'd say the top 1% of black sprinters will be faster than the top 1% of white sprinters.

The best study or research for me is to look at the top 50 all-time in the mens 100m. Marc Burns is the 50th fastest of all-time (I think) at 9.96. He and all the guys above him are black (including Patrick Johnson). Are there more black sprinters? Maybe, but its unlikely there are 50+ times more black sprinters than white sprinters.

thirtyfoot

robinph wrote: »

Being born between September and the end of December and you are much more likely to be successful in sports. The chance success then tails off throughout the rest of the year based on your birthday to there being basically zero international athletes born in August. All down to when the academic year starts and if your bigger/ faster/ stronger than the rest of your classmates or not.

What about if the academic year starts differently in different countries? I saw that documentary and while I agree when you are born is a factor I don't think its more of a factor than genes. What happens if you don't go to school?

scottreynolds

robinph wrote: »

Being born between September and the end of December and you are much more likely to be successful in sports. The chance success then tails off throughout the rest of the year based on your birthday to there being basically zero international athletes born in August. All down to when the academic year starts and if your bigger/ faster/ stronger than the rest of your classmates or not.

Following that same logic this doesn't apply in the Southern Hemisphere where the school year is Jan - Dec.

I'm born in August and can verify I've never attempted international competition but unfortunately Usian Bolt was born in August

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usain_Bolt

Usain St. Leo Bolt, C.D. (pronounced /juːˈseɪn/;[4] born 21 August 1986), is a Jamaican sprinter and a three-time Olympic gold medalist. He holds the world record for the 100 metres, the 200 metres and, along with his teammates, the 4x100 metres relay. He also holds the Olympic record for all three of these races

kennyb3

Racing Flat wrote: »

Greater bone density, less fat, therefore they have less buoyancy.

iosnt their blood slightly heavier too or is this a myth?

ecoli

Hate to spoil the party but in fact it has been broken Ian Mackie of Scotland ran 9.9997. While officially this time was rounded up to 10.00 due to the clocks only counting to hundredths of seconds he has in fact ran sub ten.
End of discussion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A39691218

pickarooney

scottreynolds wrote: »

Following that same logic this doesn't apply in the Southern Hemisphere where the school year is Jan - Dec.

I'm born in August and can verify I've never attempted international competition but unfortunately Usian Bolt was born in August

As were Tyson Gay and Bob Beamon.
Maurice Green was born at the end of July, Carl Lewis also in July...

gerard65

ecoli wrote: »

Hate to spoil the party but in fact it has been broken Ian Mackie of Scotland ran 9.9997. While officially this time was rounded up to 10.00 due to the clocks only counting to hundredths of seconds he has in fact ran sub ten.
End of discussion

But the Scots are the blacks of Britian:D:D:D

thirtyfoot

ecoli wrote: »

Hate to spoil the party but in fact it has been broken Ian Mackie of Scotland ran 9.9997. While officially this time was rounded up to 10.00 due to the clocks only counting to hundredths of seconds he has in fact ran sub ten.
End of discussion

Discussion back open.......Ian Mackie's PB is 10.17. He has a windy 10.00 which is still 10.00 even if it was 9.9997 and rounded up. There is a white US Pole Vaulter who ran 9.8 something but that was windy too.

Dotsie~tmp

<Snipped and banned>

ChickenTikka

gerard65 wrote: »

I heard that all Kilkenny people have a special genes which allow them to play hurling better than anyone else. Same as Kerrymen in football. Don't know if its true, but a man in a pub told me this.

Thats an interesting comparison. While undoubtedly there are a lot of genetic factors that influence raw athleticism, I think the 'nurture' aspect of it is greatly underestimated.

The Jamaicans seem to have a great desire to be the best sprinters in the world, for Kenyans its a way out of poverty, for Kilkenny hurlers its tradition and godlike-status, for Kerry footballers the same. There is no genetic reason for Kerryman to be crap hurlers and Kilkenny men to be crap footballers - yet thats the way it is. 100% nuture in their cases.

--amadeus--

Yep, those are good points from Ger & CT.

I think that using a broad brush like "black" or "white" is defeating the object. For example both Haile Gebrselassie and Ursain Bolt are black. Both are world record holders. But HG's physiology would probably have more in common with Sonia O'Sullivan (a white woman from Cork) than with Bolts. The groupings are too broad too be meaningful.

More sensible would be to talk about regional pre-dispositions. Again broad brush but East Africans seem to be socially and genetically predisposed to be world class distance runners. West Africans (and thier close relatives in teh Caribbean) seem better disposed to be sprinters. The fact that both are black is a co-incidence.

More interesting is the genetic versus environment discussion, IMO. Look at how few Irish run sub 2:30 marathons now compared to the first running boom. Have we changed genetically? I doubt it so it must be to do with environment, motivation, etc

MCOS

Lads there are heaps of argumenst about body composition, muscle fibres and tibia length in these arguments but the predominant factor is really about nurture as pointed out by some of the posts.

Why are the All Blacks and the Springbox the best at Rugby (most of the time)... its a national sport/passion and every kid does it
Why are the Carribean Sprinters winning everything(mostly)... its a national sport/passion and every kid does it
Why do the middle east excel at cricket... its a national sport/passion and every kid does it
Why do Kenya and Etheopia dominate distance running... its a national sport and every kid does it and at altitude in barefoot to boot!


The more kids doing a certain thing, the more likely the star kids will rise from the competition.