Herding Cats!

Agricola · 19-09-2009 4:01pm #1

The Richard Dawkins thread reminded me of a line in TGD where he says organising atheists is abit like trying to herd cats. ie They are just too independantly minded and non conformist.

Id just like to ask people here, would they agree and would they view themselves as such?

For me personally, I wasnt particularly bookish growing up, (although I would say I was moreso than alot of my peers) I played a bit of sport in school and did all the things any young fella does growing up. I didnt break any records for high achievement academically. I did go onto 3rd level and get a degree in computer science.

After years of playing along with the weekly mass etc, I stopped going at 18 and while I wouldnt throw my atheism in the face of my parents because they are lapsed Catholics who "believe in belief" more than anything else, they accept my standpoint now.
Socially, while I wouldnt describe myself as a loner, Ive always felt slightly like an outsider. I dont get to know other people easily, nor they me. I have, I suppose would be considered, a small group of good friends whose company I enjoy, and not all of them share my atheistic viewpoint. In fact, most of them are just like many other people in their mid twenties that Ive ever met, they dont spend any time thinking about it!
I like interesting discussions on everything from politics to sport to philosophy to religion and all things inbetween, especially when these discussions are undertaken in the presence of afew pints! In fact, thats my idea of a good night out.

So Im wondering if the majority of other people here would have some aspects of the background which are similar? Or would you say you are just like anyone else youve met with "religious belief" ** except on the matter of religion itself?

** I place the words religious belief in quotations because I infer that it means both those people who genuinely believe in God and those that just go with the flow and label themselves Catholic.

ChocolateSauce · 19-09-2009 4:54pm

I try not to comment on my own personality. I'll just say that I'm somewhat eccentric and my atheism certainly does play a part in that, although it is certainly not the only factor.

Regarding organising, for the sake of having a smooth-running organisation, I would voluntarily engage in some sheep-like behaviour if it meant the basic message would be clearer.

Daftendirekt · 20-09-2009 1:13pm

I think you'll have a hard time getting an answer to your question. In my experience, most people like to think of themselves as non-conformist, independent individualists.

And I'd personally be no different.

It's quite ironic really.

:pac:

Joe1919 · 20-09-2009 2:59pm

Agricola wrote: »

The Richard Dawkins thread reminded me of a line in TGD where he says organising atheists is abit like trying to herd cats. ie They are just too independantly minded and non conformist.

Id just like to ask people here, would they agree and would they view themselves as such?

I don't know if you ever read Shakespeare's ‚ 'King Lear' but Cordelia was a bit of an outsider and also a 'third child' and this got her into trouble in terms of not humouring up her father. (not going with the flow).

Anyhow, it often argued that outsiders suffer from a lack of 'trust' and tend to take a sceptical view on life and hence, it could be argued that they are less likely to 'follow the herd' so to speak. Outsiders tend to be more individual but they often do pay dearly for this.

I took an interest in this a few years ago (for an essay).
Anyhow, below is a few links that might interest you.

http://www.homeoint.org/morrell/misc/thirdchild.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsider_(Colin_Wilson)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranger_(novel)

PS I'm a third child.

kiffer · 20-09-2009 3:13pm

yeah... Many people feel that they don't fit in... That's part of the drive to conform. Also I think It's part of what fuels peer pressure as well: "If I'm seen to push the conformist view on others then noone will doubt how well I fit in... Which will help me fit in" "highlighting how someone else deviates from the norm takes attention away from me/makes it look like I fit better".

Of course there are just my opinions...

On the other hand some people don't want to be seen as sheep so will point out conformist type things that others do... Then make it clear that they themselves behave in some non-conformist way...

"I dress this way to fit in with a nonconformist subculture" eh what? Aren't you just conforming? Silly little Gothchen...

Turtwig · 20-09-2009 3:16pm

Is life about who others think you ought to be, or who you want to be?

studiorat · 20-09-2009 3:19pm

Apparently everybodys an individual in their own right. Except me...

Joe1919 · 20-09-2009 3:55pm

kiffer wrote: »

"I dress this way to fit in with a nonconformist subculture" eh what? Aren't you just conforming? Silly little Gothchen...

You are right. There is a paradox of recognition. People want to be 'seen' as individuals. They take great pride in been 'above' the herd but this 'pride' is motivated by their desire to be 'recognised' by the herd.

In a way, it can be argued that the 'individual' is only a myth. Everything we are, we know, our language, our culture, even our private thoughts we have got from society and others. The very language that we privately think in is necessarly public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_language_argument

That the 'individual' exists is perhaps a greater myth than that God exists??

Coriolanus · 20-09-2009 4:50pm

Cats are evil, evil creatures, so I guess in some eyes the analogy is appropriate on more than one level.

studiorat · 20-09-2009 7:19pm

Nevore wrote: »

Cats are evil, evil creatures, so I guess in some eyes the analogy is appropriate on more than one level.

There's no such thing as Evil...

Daftendirekt · 21-09-2009 10:55am

Nevore wrote: »

Cats are evil, evil creatures, so I guess in some eyes the analogy is appropriate on more than one level.

Really?

Goduznt Xzst · 21-09-2009 12:29pm

Nevore wrote: »

Cats are evil, evil creatures

I assume a bit of tongue in cheek here but curiously this view is fairly widespread. I wonder if the attributes we see as evil in a cat would still be viewed as such if we where to see them in a human.

While I'd never have a cat as a pet (do not consider them good pet animals) I admire them, they are excellent survivalists.

OT, one thing Atheism has given me is a comfortable amount of doubt in mine, and others opinions. I never sit on an idea or opinion long enough to join some organization or group to promote it. I fully expect that opinions I harbor currently that I feel society should adopt immediately I may well abhor vehemently this time next year.

External to my own attempts to secure my, and my own families, ongoing happiness, there is nothing I'd really get behind. Except maybe secularism, but then I think that has nothing really to do with being an Atheist. Even Theists should want for a secular society.

Coriolanus · 21-09-2009 10:27pm

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Really?

Really.

@Goduznt: Actually, I love cats. I have... 4, at last count. There's a couple of semi-feral stray one's that I feed a bit though as well.

The difference between cats and dogs.

kiffer · 21-09-2009 11:35pm

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I assume a bit of tongue in cheek here but curiously this view is fairly widespread. I wonder if the attributes we see as evil in a cat would still be viewed as such if we where to see them in a human.

I love my little cat... but if she were human and still treated mice the way she does now I would have no compunction about calling her sick, twisted and evil...

She doesn't just kill for food, she hunts for fun... But not only that she actively keeps them alive as long as possible so that they are more fun...
She carries them like little kittens then drops them and gives them a wack to make them run... Then hooks them with her claws and throws them in the air... She can keep them a live and uncritically injured for some time... Though they often have several puncture wounds by the end... I've seen her get so excited that she rolls around on top of the poor mouse in what seems to be an orgy of violence...

If I get to then quickly enough then I take them off her and they are usually seemingly uninjured... If I'm not quick enough they often have internal injuries or punctures which they wont survive...

Other than their harsh cruelty they are often nice socially ... They look aloof and are hard to train but I've never really met a nasty cat...

Zillah · 22-09-2009 4:03am

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Really?

Cats have, on several occasions in recent history, sat on people's faces in their sleep, smothering them.

They do this because they are malevolent creatures, or simply because the face is warm. I'm not sure which is more chilling.

kiffer · 22-09-2009 10:54am

Zillah wrote: »

Cats have, on several occasions in recent history, sat on people's faces in their sleep, smothering them.

They do this because they are malevolent creatures, or simply because the face is warm. I'm not sure which is more chilling.

[citation needed]

Seriously... Who has such a weak breathing reflex that they don't just roll over in their sleep, bat at the cat or out right wake up when this happens? Maybe babies?
I think this is just a modern version of the 'cats steal the breath from babies by sucking it out of them' myth.

More evil is the face eating... but I think that starts out with attempts to wake you up so that you'll get them some food... Then gets more frantic untill it progresses to I'm starving, you're clearly dead/not reacting at all and hey I'm already biting your tasty tasty face...

Goduznt Xzst · 22-09-2009 11:17am

kiffer wrote: »

I think this is just a modern version of the 'cats steal the breath from babies by sucking it out of them' myth.

You know what else is a myth, that the guy who invented cats eyes on the roads would of invented a pencil sharpener if the cat had been facing the other way. I tried it... it did not sharpen my pencil at all.

Daftendirekt · 22-09-2009 5:18pm

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You know what else is a myth, that the guy who invented cats eyes on the roads would of invented a pencil sharpener if the cat had been facing the other way. I tried it... it did not sharpen my pencil at all.

:eek:

robindch · 22-09-2009 6:27pm

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

that the guy who invented cats eyes on the roads would of invented a pencil sharpener if the cat had been facing the other way.

That'll be the TabbyTote yer thinking of:

studiorat · 22-09-2009 10:17pm

The trouble with a kitten is THAT Eventually it becomes a CAT.
—Ogden Nash

studiorat · 22-09-2009 10:19pm

Zillah wrote: »

Cats have, on several occasions in recent history, sat on people's faces in their sleep, smothering them.

excellent opportunity for a pussy joke there...

ShooterSF · 22-09-2009 10:41pm

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You know what else is a myth, that the guy who invented cats eyes on the roads would of invented a pencil sharpener if the cat had been facing the other way. I tried it... it did not sharpen my pencil at all.

Pencil eh? That what they're calling it these days?