Boy, 12, is having sex change school annouces

SarahSassy

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/boy-12-is-having-sex-change-school-annouces-1890717.html

Is anyone else horrified by this? Should / would a 12 year old have the capacity to make a decision about having a sex change?

I wonder if the parents wanted a girl originally or if this is legit.

minidazzler

Personally my view on this is that the British govt. should bar him from doing it until he is 18. I am one for freedom, but this is a monumental decision that should not be made by or for any child.

mink_man

thats sick!

minidazzler

mink_man wrote: »

thats sick!

Which part? The sex change or the fact that it's a kid?


I don't mind the sex change per se, I know there are people who are trully feminine to the core, but male outside, so fairenough there.

But NO child should be allowed have this done.

Novella

I think this is a pretty huge deal. I have read a lot of articles on people who have had sex changes and many of them said that they knew from a young age, said they always felt like they were just "trapped" in the wrong body.

I think it must be horrendous for a twelve year old boy to really feel that he should be a girl. It is hard enough to be a twelve year old, nevermind one facing such a momentous personal dilemma. I can only imagine how difficult that must be for him.

On one hand, I feel that forcing him to continue his life as a boy is terrible if he deep down feels that it is not right. I know that I would be absolutely tortured if I truly felt I didn't belong inside myself, so to speak. However, making such a huge decision at such a young age is obviously a big ask and I think a lot of counselling should be required. Perhaps the best option would be to allow him to dress a girl and see how things go before taking such a giant leap.

I am extremely interested in mental and emotional health and I think it is just as important as physical well-being. I do think there needs to be some kind of boundary around this sort of thing though. I mean, is a twelve year old really able to make a choice like this?

Nevyn

It is well documented that there are Transgendered children and the procedures would not go ahead with out intensive psych evaluation of the child.
The treatments and change is actually better done for the child before puberty happens and the transition then is physically easier.

I very much doubt the parents are pushing for this cos they want a daughter :rolleyes:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children



http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/740831/im-finally-a-woman-worlds-youngest-transsexual

Teen pop star reveals secret sex-change surgery
06:00 AEST Thu Feb 5 2009
From Tim to Kim: this 16-year-old girl is believed to be the world's youngest

A 16-year-old pop singer's four-year transformation from "Tim" to "Kim" is finally complete after a secret sex change operation.

German teen Tim Petras underwent the surgery last November and is believed to be the world's youngest transsexual, Britain's Daily Mail newspaper reports.

She is now speaking out about the final hurdle in gender transformation.

"I was asked if I feel like a woman now — but the truth is I have always felt like a woman — I just ended up in the wrong body," Petras, who now identifies as Kim, was quoted as saying.

"I can enjoy swimming, and bikinis, go in the changing rooms without a problem, everything has changed because of this operation.

"I just can't wait to put on my favourite bathing suit and go swimming like I've never done before."

Petras' surgery was authorised after psychologists agreed that she was "without doubt a girl in a boy's body".

She had undergone hormone replacement therapy since the age of 12 after becoming convinced she wanted to be a girl when she was just two years old.

Under German law, sex change surgery isn't allowed until a person turns 18 but Petras convinced doctors when she was 12 that she should have the operation.

By the time Petras was 14, she was registered as a female.

Petras, who studies fashion design, was signed to a German record label last year and released her first online single "Last Forever".

It became a sensation on Myspace and Facebook.

Last September, just weeks before her life-altering surgery, Petras' first commercial single "Fade Away" hit the German market.

Her father Lutz said it was taking him a while to come around to the reality of Kim's change sex but that his daughter is "very persuasive".

"I am very proud of what she has achieved, how she has managed to get there and how she sticks to her dreams no matter how hard and painful they are to follow," he was quoted as saying.

minidazzler wrote: »

Personally my view on this is that the British govt. should bar him from doing it until he is 18. I am one for freedom, but this is a monumental decision that should not be made by or for any child.

And I think it's wrong to make her go through the transition into being a man which she doesn't not want to be and which will do more damage to her in the long run mentally and emotionally.
Some of the changes which will happen to her body during puberty will never be able to be undo and she deserves the right to be happy and to be the woman she wants to grow into.

Euro_Kraut

I feel really sorry for that Kid. She will get a tough time form her peers and may not be accepted by the other girls in the school. She must be going through a lot of torment. Hense the parents decision.

I presume that the child will have to have under gone extensive physiological testing before this can ever be considered by her doctors. None of us here are experts in the field. My initial reaction is that the child is too young and sometime between 16-18 would be more appropriate.

However, no medical team would agree to under go such a produce if they were not convinced it was appropriate.

Jules

To be totally honest i would think this is more of a humanities discussion. Will leave it here for the moment!

spurious

18 would be a bit late for sex reassignment, unless for some reason you wanted the child to go through the trauma of puberty in (for them) the wrong body.

I can't believe what sort of idiot in the school thought that would be an appropriate way to announce it to the other children.

SarahSassy

I just cant decide if I think that a kid of 11 or 12 can truly know and understand their sexual identity.. I cant help but feeling there was some sway or pressure from the parents here.

Nevyn

SarahSassy wrote: »

I just cant decide if I think that a kid of 11 or 12 can truly know and understand their sexual identity.. I cant help but feeling there was some sway or pressure from the parents here.

It is not their sexual identity it is their gender.
Gender is not just about what is between your legs, it is not binary
and gender identity is not about a person's sexuality.

SarahSassy

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is not their sexual identity it is their gender.
Gender is not just about what is between your legs, it is not binary
and gender identity is not about a person's sexuality.

I know its not about sexuality but what I meant by identity is how you are 'definined' i.e. male or female. What I dont get is how a child would know that he is not a male and should be a female... What understanding of each sex does he have at 12 with which to make an educated decision. Dont know if I am explaining this well.

When I was a 12 year old girl, I didnt know enough about boys / men to know that I would / should be one.. Does this make any sense?

Nevyn

I'd suggest you do some reading and research on it Sarahsassy as these children do clearly 'know' and some at a very young age.

I also agree with spurious that the school handled it very badly, tbh if it had of been my child who was transitioning I would have considered moving them to another school.

I do know that several company's have policies when it comes to employees transitioning which is wonderful.

Xiney

At 12, I certainly already identified as a straight woman (in that I was already having sexual dreams about my preferred gender). In fact, I would wager that I knew I was straight from the age of 4 or 5, but obviously because it's normal it doesn't matter.

I have plenty of gay friends who feel that they knew they were gay from a very young age. I've only known one transgendered person and they were really annoying so I never got around to asking them if they knew all along, but I imagine it's quite similar.

Therefore I have no problem with this boy becoming a girl.

In essence, it's important to start before testosterone takes over anyway.

iguana

That article is quite mis-informative. The child had started in a new secondary school and the school and family hoped in the new environment with many new pupils the change would go unnoticed. Unfortunately some of the other pupils who had been in the child's primary recognised her and word got around. Once the staff realised she was being bullied they called an emergency assembly. If you read through the sensationalism in The Sun article it's clear the school were caught in a tough situation which they hoped they could have avoided.

I identified very strongly with being a girl all through my childhood, so I don't see why we should question how this child feels. I also suspect that the child's family could see where the child is coming from through her actions and how she identifies herself. And I don't think the school would be so strongly in support of the family if it was just a case of nutty parents who wanted a girl. The family live on a council estate and are under police protection due to threats they have received over this, so again I doubt they just "wanted a girl." In fact if they just wanted a girl they would have raised the child as a girl, not decided on a swap with a 12 year old.

I find the suggestion extremely insulting to them, they are obviously going through a very tough time and are making decisions to help their child in spite of the negative consequences for them. Many children who feel they are the wrong gender have extremely unsupportive parents who either ignore the child's feelings or punish them for expressing them.

Also in the UK this child will not get hormone treatment for a number of years, so will have to go through puberty before getting treatment to reverse much of what will happen over the next few years.

Jules

OK guys im moving this to humanities, no one has posted anything wrong, i just don't feel tLL is the place of it.

philologos

Novella wrote: »

On one hand, I feel that forcing him to continue his life as a boy is terrible if he deep down feels that it is not right. I know that I would be absolutely tortured if I truly felt I didn't belong inside myself, so to speak. However, making such a huge decision at such a young age is obviously a big ask and I think a lot of counselling should be required. Perhaps the best option would be to allow him to dress a girl and see how things go before taking such a giant leap.

He'll always be a boy, but he'll appear like a girl. That's basically what a sex change operation is. All one can change is how one appears, at the end of the day he was born a boy and he will remain a boy. I think counselling should be the first point of call in order to embrace who he is rather than aiming to change everything.

As for a 12 year old being capable of making such a decision, I don't really think so, circumstances change throughout adolescence. I think it would be horrible if this change of appearance was made, and he realised it was all a mistake. I just can't help but think that it is bordering on insanity if people are genuinely entertaining this at 12 years of age. I mean people go through different thought processes all the time, that doesn't mean we should always act on them.

Just wondering, is it legal in Ireland currently to change your gender in writing on your birth certificate?

SarahSassy

No need to jump down my throat iguana - I am entitled to ask a question and comment on the article.

I do hope that this is being done for all the right reasons but it has been handled pretty badly imho.

SarahSassy

Jakkass wrote: »

As for a 12 year old being capable of making such a decision, I don't really think so, circumstances change throughout adolescence. I think it would be horrible if this change of appearance was made, and he realised it was all a mistake. I just can't help but think that it is bordering on insanity if people are genuinely entertaining this at 12 years of age. I mean people go through different thought processes all the time, that doesn't mean we should always act on them.

+1

Rev Hellfire

Jakkass wrote: »

He'll always be a boy, but he'll appear like a girl.

But isn't it a case of sticking antlers on a horse and calling it a raindeer. If enough people agree its one it may as well be.

Though I do agree that waiting until the child is more mature would be correct, then again this is less about them and more above proving how progressive society is I suspect.

Piste

I agree that he'll never be a girl, he'll always have that Y chromosome so he'll always be male. I see no problem with him having the sex change at this age though. A sense of gender is so deeply ingrained in us, even from such a young age that it's not as if he's maknig the deicison on a whim. Being happy and comfortable with himself is the most important thing. The school really could have handled it better though.

philologos

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But isn't it a case of sticking antlers on a horse and calling it a raindeer. If enough people agree its one it may as well be.

That's the problem with suggesting that it is actually possible to change gender, when it is really only possible to appear like a certain gender, either by surgery or by merely dressing as someone of the opposite sex.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Though I do agree that waiting until the child is more mature would be correct, then again this is less about them and more above proving how progressive society is I suspect.

I don't see how it is progressive to indulge every single whim and thought that a child has. I mean, some kids think that they want to be a pilot when they are older (I was one of those kids), but then they grow up and realise that something else is probably more suited to them. I'd assume at 12 years of age it is pretty much the same type of aspiration.

Piste

Wanting to change gender is more than just a "whim", you can't actually liken it to wanting to be a pilot!

philologos

Piste wrote: »

Wanting to change gender is more than just a "whim", you can't actually liken it to wanting to be a pilot!

I can't be confident at the age of 12 that it actually is (I'm not even sure at any age one can be confident). In fact I don't think anyone can be confident. However, encouraging a child to make a decision of that gravity which is basically irreversible, and a decision which he could potentially regret for the rest of his life is nothing but despicable.

SarahSassy

Jackass I 100% agree with you on this. I cannot figure out how a 12 year old can know this..

philologos

I just can't help thinking that it would be more productive to help people accept themselves for who they are rather than what they aren't. I think it's up to any responsible parent to ensure that their children become happy with who they are, because whatever happens to the exterior the interior will remain the same. It appears to be another case of political correctness gone loose.

Is indulging insecurities better than to deal with them and help people to overcome them?

Nevyn

The point is that they are a gender different to what their body is and unless you can grasp that concept you won't understand it.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

The point is that they are a gender different to what their body is and unless you can grasp that concept you won't understand it.

If this is the case (and I am assuming it is for the moment) how on earth do you think we discern who is genuine from who is thinking this on a whim?

I think in situations where there is such risk to ones self esteem, and to ones reputation it is far too dangerous and far too risky, and indeed absolutely irresponsible to put a child in the spotlight like this.

SarahSassy

Thaedydal wrote: »

The point is that they are a gender different to what their body is and unless you can grasp that concept you won't understand it.

Assuming every case of gender dysphoria in children is the same... I have done a bit of reading and true cases are believed to be to do with hormones after birth but some cases are as a result of socialisation or little boys not been given a firm male identity.

Rev Hellfire

Thaedydal wrote: »

The point is that they are a gender different to what their body is and unless you can grasp that concept you won't understand it.

Well since its clear that jakkass is referring to gender as a physical attribute rather than an identity, he is correct in his stance.

Thinking you are something doesn't necessary make you that thing. Though its perfectly understandable why people will seek to bring their physical identity into alignment with their mental one. It certainly costs society nothing to humour such individuals in their endeavours.

Nevyn

Jakkass wrote: »

If this is the case (and I am assuming it is for the moment) how on earth do you think we discern who is genuine from who is thinking this on a whim?

There are professionals who specialise in the diagonalises of gender identity disorder and this had to be done first before any 'treatments' happen.

Jakkass wrote: »

I think in situations where there is such risk to ones self esteem, and to ones reputation it is far too dangerous and far too risky, and indeed absolutely irresponsible to put a child in the spotlight like this.

Well what are the other options, for the parents to have a child who becomes unhappy, possibly depressed and self harms or kills them self due to be trangendered? As this often tends to be the case unfortunately esp with
male to female transgendered people.

For some reason male to female always causes more issues in our society.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

For some reason male to female always causes more issues in our society.

The direction isn't relevant at all. If it were the other way around I would have expressed equal criticism.

The first priority should be to help people be happy with who they are, rather than who they aren't.

SarahSassy

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what are the other options, for the parents to have a child who becomes unhappy, possibly depressed and self harms or kills them self due to be trangendered? .

And do you really think this child is going to escape that after all this?

My heart goes out to him / her.

Nevyn

Well what if they are happy with who they are but thier outward appearance does not match that?

Nevyn

SarahSassy wrote: »

And do you really think this child is going to escape that after all this?

My heart goes out to him / her.

I think that she will have difficulties all her life time but she seems to have understanding and supportive parents who accept her for who she is which will go a long way to offset some of the hurt she will suffer due to other people's ignorance and intolerance.

Nerin

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that she will have difficulties all her life time but she seems to have understanding and supportive parents who accept her for who she is

i dunno, im veering to the side that think at 12 you arent completely clued to whats what.
i was very thinky as a youngster, but that didnt mean i understood anything, or knew what i really wanted.
i find it hard to think a 12 year old has the understanding for a decision this big.

which will go a long way to offset some of the hurt she will suffer due to other people's ignorance and intolerance.

such is life.
but i dont think the school hurt her by being intolerant.
i think they tried being really tolerant and pc, and ****ed up, which sometimes happens these pc days.

iguana

SarahSassy wrote: »

No need to jump down my throat iguana - I am entitled to ask a question and comment on the article.

Actually you aren't, people are entitled to their good name, others are not entitled to slander it, which I think you are wandering into the realm of. At worst you are being extremely reactionary in your commentary. At best you are showing a poor understanding of the events and the English system of dealing with gender reassignment and social care.

This whole situation is quite obviously hellish for the whole family in question and it's people who haven't got a clue about the situation but feel they are entitled to voice their opinion on it which makes things so much harder than they have to be.

damnyanks

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that she will have difficulties all her life time but she seems to have understanding and supportive parents who accept her for who she is which will go a long way to offset some of the hurt she will suffer due to other people's ignorance and intolerance.

You seem pretty confident that this kid should be getting full support for this procedure because of study xyz.

At the end of the day they are twelve just because its easier now doesn't mean its right. They could simply be confused or like most twelve year olds incredibly impressionable.

SarahSassy

iguana wrote: »

Actually you aren't, people are entitled to their good name, others are not entitled to slander it, which I think you are wandering into the realm of. At worst you are being extremely reactionary in your commentary. At best you are showing a poor understanding of the events and the English system of dealing with gender reassignment and social care.

This whole situation is quite obviously hellish for the whole family in question and it's people who haven't got a clue about the situation but feel they are entitled to voice their opinion on it which makes things so much harder than they have to be.

I wasnt slandering anyone. I was throwing it out there. I said I have no knowledge of the events. Thought it was a public forum but guess not...

metrovelvet

Given that I know a woman who thought she might like to be a man so she had a voluntary double masectomy and then eventually gave in to her feminine side and decided she didnt want to be a man, I think this is ridiculous.

No matter what you think you want to be, there are things that nothing will change. Im sorry, accept yourself.

No matter how much I close my eyes and convince myself Im scandinavian, and dye my hair and wear coloured contacts, I am still going to be what I am.

iguana

SarahSassy wrote: »

I wasnt slandering anyone. I was throwing it out there. I said I have no knowledge of the events. Thought it was a public forum but guess not...

Being a public forum doesn't give us the right to pass judgement on people's personal lives. I don't think this story should have been in the papers. I don't think it's anyone's business but that of those involved in the situation. We are not entitled to make illogical claims about the motives of the family.

And it is illogical because if the parents had just wanted a girl they would have raised their child as a girl since infanthood. Anyone just deciding to start calling their son, their daughter, dressing him as a girl and changing his name by deed poll would be investigated by social services and the child placed in foster care if it was clear the parents had less than sane motives. This move was done in conjunction with healthcare and education workers. State employees who are trained to assess the mental state of the child, the family and decide if this is being done for right or wrong reasons.

Filan

I think whether the child will be fe/male if s/he undergoes surgery in time is almost an irrelevance. One can certainly -live as- a member of the opposite gender and if this affords mental health then it is the right thing to do. Whether they are really a man or a woman is a misnomer, it doesn't really matter. Everyone has the right to be themselves.

The tabloid press in this instance have been appalingly insensitive.

MagicMarker

I have to say, I do still have a small amount of faith in humanity, and believe that no medical professional would agree to such a procedure on a whim.

If this is the course of action the parents are taking then I think it's safe to say they haven't taken the decision lightly, and have taken all necessary steps to ensure it's the right one.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what if they are happy with who they are but thier outward appearance does not match that?

Their outward appearance is who they are, as are their internals. That is who they are. It is far better to embrace who you are than pretend to be what you aren't.

Piste

I disagree, it's all about perception. You should embrace who you feel yourself to be as opposed to fighting against it. Like that guy who thinks he's a leopard and has all weird surgery and tattoos done to make him more leopard like. He seems happy embracing his "true" identity as a leopard even though we all know he's not.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If s/he is evaluated by qualified psychologists and they establish s/he is psychologically female I reckon the operation should go ahead ASAP.

I do acknowledge its quite a conundrum but then its not like many kids feel they should be another sex. Reckon there's a lot of feeling and not bull**** behind this on behalf of the the kid.

philologos

Piste wrote: »

I disagree, it's all about perception. You should embrace who you feel yourself to be as opposed to fighting against it. Like that guy who thinks he's a leopard and has all weird surgery and tattoos done to make him more leopard like. He seems happy embracing his "true" identity as a leopard even though we all know he's not.

I actually can't believe I'm reading this!

So do you think if a child feels like a leopard they should be able to get tattooed and get artificial fur on and pretend to be a leopard all day long? I'm sorry, but that's nothing but horrifically irresponsible parenting bordering on child abuse and so is this.

metrovelvet

^ seriously, if your child came to you and said s/he really thinks she's Jordan or Megan Fox trapped inside someone else's body, would you really go for all the plastic surgery that required?

spurious

metrovelvet wrote: »

^ seriously, if your child came to you and said s/he really thinks she's Jordan or Megan Fox trapped inside someone else's body, would you really go for all the plastic surgery that required?

If your child came to you desperately unhappy, possibly suicidal or self-harming and feeling they were not who everyone says they are, or who they look at in the mirror, thinking every day there is something wrong with them because they are not like anyone else and they do not like any of the things anyone else of their gender seems to and inside they feel like there has been a terrible mistake and they are trapped in a body that is not theirs, what would you say to them?

damnyanks

spurious wrote: »

If your child came to you desperately unhappy, possibly suicidal or self-harming and feeling they were not who everyone says they are, or who they look at in the mirror, thinking every day there is something wrong with them because they are not like anyone else and they do not like any of the things anyone else of their gender seems to and inside they feel like there has been a terrible mistake and they are trapped in a body that is not theirs, what would you say to them?

If a 12 year old came to me with the above then yes soemthing is wrong. But no it does not mean tehy are trapped in the wrong body.

spurious

damnyanks wrote: »

If a 12 year old came to me with the above then yes soemthing is wrong. But no it does not mean tehy are trapped in the wrong body.

But if assessed by a psychologist and it is found that is the case (and such children do exist in Ireland*) would you rule out surgery in attempting to help them?


*I don't wish to give details for obvious reasons but while I did not teach her, within my career I became aware of a child like this. She dressed as a girl and used a girl's name for years although everyone in the area 'knew' she was born a boy. She never got any assistance and killed herself in her teenage years.