PhD failure rate: statistics?

Dionysus

I have two separate questions:

Does anybody have any statistics on the number and percentage of people who drop out of PhD courses in Ireland before reaching their viva voce examination?

I'd imagine it's huge, but the figures are hard to find.

My second question is: have any statistics been published on the number of people who sit the viva, and their results? I find the entire viva process to be more secretive than the Freemasons and the Vatican combined. I am not being in the slightest facetious.

What percentage of PhD students who reach the viva voce stage are:

1) awarded the PhD with no corrections
2) awarded the PhD subject to minor corrections
3) not awarded the PhD but allowed to resubmit it
4) are not awarded the PhD
5) awarded a Masters Degree instead


These are very important statistics for anybody who is thinking of embarking on a PhD to consider. Anybody who researches well enough to find them deserves to be awarded a doctorate.:)

JOHN_70

My own personal experience over 16 years involvement in research is that the completion rate is fairly high. Many of those not completing just find that the life isn't for them, poor pay.., long hours..., etc and write up a Masters.

The viva.... differs from place to place I reckon, I have no personal knowlege of a student reaching the viva and not being awarded a Ph.D. Usually the award is with very minor corrections. Anywhere I have worked the supervision has been of a very high standard and if the work gets past the supervisor then the viva is easy.

Webmonkey

I'd be interested in this too. I've started one and the work load even for the next few months for me is scary.

Thats John for that.

Dionysus

JOHN_70 wrote: »

My own personal experience over 16 years involvement in research is that the completion rate is fairly high. Many of those not completing just find that the life isn't for them, poor pay.., long hours..., etc and write up a Masters.

The viva.... differs from place to place I reckon, I have no personal knowlege of a student reaching the viva and not being awarded a Ph.D. Usually the award is with very minor corrections. Anywhere I have worked the supervision has been of a very high standard and if the work gets past the supervisor then the viva is easy.

Thanks, John. On this website -http://ee.ucd.ie/~finbarr/phd_howto/surviving_the_viva.html - it gives these general results for the viva:

1) award the PhD with no corrections (quite rare)
2) award the PhD with corrections (typical)
3) do not award the PhD but allow a resubmission (sometimes)
4) do not award the PhD (rare)
5) award a Masters Degree (rare)

I haven't found a precise percentage breakdown of this yet.


I was talking to a guy recently who said that of all 18 students who started their PhD under his prolific supervisor over the years, only 2 had ever got all the way to the viva. All the rest gave up on it, hence my quest for some statistics on the pre-viva drop-out rate. I think it's important that people who start a PhD have a bit of transparency about it and don't go so hard on themselves when they give up on it.

ulysses32

I am currently in Year two of a four year PhD programme. These are the stats from year one in the department:

80% still enrolled
20% drop out during year one

I hope this trend doesn't continue!!!

convert

I only know of one PhD student who got to the viva and didn't 'get' the PhD. They came under the 'major changes' category, but didn't feel they were in a position to do that.

On the other hand, I do know one student who had their PhD accepted with no changes.

tallaght01

Does a PhD get awarded with a grade attached? Or is it just a case of you get it or you don't?

Dr Strange

tallaght01 wrote: »

Does a PhD get awarded with a grade attached? Or is it just a case of you get it or you don't?

I don't think there is a grade awarded with it. They say in the regulations that the examiners should make a comment on the quality of the research in their final report but apart from that I haven't seen anything like grading.

Ostrom

tallaght01 wrote: »

Does a PhD get awarded with a grade attached? Or is it just a case of you get it or you don't?

http://www.uow.edu.au/content/groups/public/@web/@raid/documents/doc/uow016364.pdf

The above should allay any fears - the 'statistics' are roughly representative of anything else I have seen. It seems they dont do oral defense Viva's in Australia, so as best I know, you get some sort of written feedback. PhD's are never formally graded, but the above paper shows how examiners go about 'grading' the piece before making a final decision.

Examiners want to award the PhD, bottom line - and will take great care to ensure they are able to do so. It is rare for a PhD to fail if your supervisor is doing their job/is experienced enough. It is up to them to ensure your work is of PhD standard before going to Viva. I have only heard of one r&r in our department in the past ten years.

Webmonkey wrote: »

I'd be interested in this too. I've started one and the work load even for the next few months for me is scary.

Thats John for that.

I've seen this grate on many students too, as the article says, its not a nobel prize. The workload is fine as long as you manage your time well, and the fact that a PhD seems to be constantly built up as some insurmountable mountain of work makes it all the more unattractive, and more likely to dishearten a student early on. It is a lot of work, but it is absolutely doable. It just takes a little longer than most pieces of work

dudara

I know a few people who got all their research done and never actually went for a viva. Work or other interests got in their way.

As for failure in the viva itself - I've only personally heard of one instance, where a lecturer from our department acted as external examiner at another university but said that he just couldn't award the candidate her PhD. He placed the blame solely at the feet of her supervisor, saying that there was no way she should have been allowed submit her thesis.

You shouldn't really be failing the viva itself - a good supervisor should work with you to make sure that you don't submit a thesis that's likely to fail.

Turbulent Bill

Dionysus wrote: »

I have two separate questions:

Does anybody have any statistics on the number and percentage of people who drop out of PhD courses in Ireland before reaching their viva voce examination?

I'd imagine it's huge, but the figures are hard to find.

My second question is: have any statistics been published on the number of people who sit the viva, and their results? I find the entire viva process to be more secretive than the Freemasons and the Vatican combined. I am not being in the slightest facetious.

What percentage of PhD students who reach the viva voce stage are:

1) awarded the PhD with no corrections
2) awarded the PhD subject to minor corrections
3) not awarded the PhD but allowed to resubmit it
4) are not awarded the PhD
5) awarded a Masters Degree instead


These are very important statistics for anybody who is thinking of embarking on a PhD to consider. Anybody who researches well enough to find them deserves to be awarded a doctorate.:)

PhD dropouts are difficult to measure given that some may transfer to a master's programme (rather than just give up research altogether), and similarly the masters completion rates are affected by people extending the work into a PhD. In a lot of cases you initially register for a masters programme, then transfer to PhD later.

As for degree awards, the vast majority (including myself) seem to fall into the 'minor corrections' category. Not having any corrections seems a bit odd (not a single error anywhere?) and smacks of poor examination.

In my experience. whenever there's a big issue (major corrections, degrade to masters or straight rejection) there's also been disagreement between student and supervisor on the quality of the work. In general at least one of the parties is aware of the standard required, but substandard work is put forward anyway by either the student or supervisor. There are also issues with poor examiners, but these are rare and colleges have mechanisms in place to deal with this.

Ostrom

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

PhD dropouts are difficult to measure given that some may transfer to a master's programme (rather than just give up research altogether), and similarly the masters completion rates are affected by people extending the work into a PhD. In a lot of cases you initially register for a masters programme, then transfer to PhD later.

As for degree awards, the vast majority (including myself) seem to fall into the 'minor corrections' category. Not having any corrections seems a bit odd (not a single error anywhere?) and smacks of poor examination.

In my experience. whenever there's a big issue (major corrections, degrade to masters or straight rejection) there's also been disagreement between student and supervisor on the quality of the work. In general at least one of the parties is aware of the standard required, but substandard work is put forward anyway by either the student or supervisor. There are also issues with poor examiners, but these are rare and colleges have mechanisms in place to deal with this.

The only outright rejection I have heard of was down to the student pushing to submit an inappropriate thesis.