Framebuilding

rottenhat

As a few of you know (well, Blorg and Niceonetom anyway) I have a new frame on the way. I finally made it to the top of the waiting list and the builder, Dave Kirk of Kirk Frameworks, started working on it yesterday. He just emailed me some pictures of the first day's work so for those of you who might be interested in how a lugged steel frame is put together, here they are:

rottenhat

rottenhat

Raam

C'mon, stop teasing us...

DirkVoodoo

Lovely. And I'm not even the biggest fan of steel, but it's nice seeing things being put together.

What will the final paint job be (or is that secret)?

rottenhat

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Lovely. And I'm not even the biggest fan of steel, but it's nice seeing things being put together.

What will the final paint job be (or is that secret)?

Still waffling a bit, but most likely an orange/burgundy fade with contrasting lug fill and minimal decals.

DirkVoodoo

Oooh, it will look like the flash. Need to add some lightning bolts to it.

Lumen

Mmmm. Soapy lug porn.

Raam

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Oooh, it will look like the flash. Need to add some lightning bolts to it.

And aero-bars, it's all the rage

ednwireland

funny coloured carbon if you ask me

hope theres a picture of a scantily clad woman next soaping her lugs

The tax man

Could you ask him for some clear shots of the car next time. Lovely machine.
Oh yeah,cool shots of your frame BTW.:D

Dr.Millah

I am truly jealous!

ROK ON

Great website Rottenhat. Some fantatsic stuff in the galleries.
Best of luck and well wear.

Am seriously considering a steel frame. Almost made an impulse purchase of a Colnaga a few weeks back.
Going to wait a few months.

kincsem

This

http://www.campyonly.com/images/retrobikes/2005/VELO_TVT_LEMOND_Z_16.JPG

rottenhat

Day 2:

Caroline_ie

this is quite interresting. I would love to see an episode of 'How do they do it' on bikes building.

Is this like Haute Couture of bike building? Designer made to measure bike where they used a measuring tape up your crotch?

rottenhat

Caroline_ie wrote: »

this is quite interresting. I would love to see an episode of 'How do they do it' on bikes building.

Is this like Haute Couture of bike building? Designer made to measure bike where they used a measuring tape up your crotch?

Yes, definitely...I couldn't afford to fly Dave in so my beautiful assistant and I spent an hour one evening measuring and remeasuring parts of my body (conclusion - I am deformed). There was also a lengthy questionnaire about my style of riding, current bikes and what I thought of them, desires for the new bike, what I'd be using it for, what the likely component build was, aesthetic values etc etc. It's been interesting to see how the process compares with the last time I did this, and I'm very curious to see how the Kirk will compare to the Rivendell when I get it.

rottenhat

Is it just me or have all the images vanished out of this thread? I'll try to redo them later.

flickerx

rottenhat wrote: »

Is it just me or have all the images vanished out of this thread? I'll try to redo them later.

Its not just you, they have vanished. You know you can just upload them straight to boards.ie? Underneath the message box, there's an option that says Manage Attachments, so you can upload them, and then put img code into the post itself with the image location you just uploaded.

rottenhat

flickerx wrote: »

Its not just you, they have vanished. You know you can just upload them straight to boards.ie? Underneath the message box, there's an option that says Manage Attachments, so you can upload them, and then put img code into the post itself with the image location you just uploaded.

Thanks, sorted that now.

uberwolf

that's really cool.

I'm stunned at the price though.

abcdggs

Firstly WOW, i'm jealous. just started building my first proper bike last night and i already want something newer.

what is the purpose of the soapy stuff and what is it? my inner geek is crying out for a reason...

niceonetom

Nice.

I'm sure the price is frightening (I'm afraid to ask) but I'm also sure it's possible to spend the same amount on an exotic carbon bike, and I know which is more likely to still be on the road in twenty years.

Do you know the details of the geo, 'hat? How different are the angles and rakes etc. from an off the peg bike?

petethedrummer

That stuff is Flux.

Here's a fella building a frame in his back garden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF3j-tclIJ4 - dunno if he's any good though.

This lad might be a bit better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc

rottenhat

petethedrummer wrote: »

That stuff is Flux.

Correct - I think it protects the tubes from the heat while they're being brazed. Rather than welding the tubes directly together, what's happening here is that a rod of brass or silver is melted, and the molten metal somehow gets sucked (don't ask me how - I never quite grasped this bit) into the joint between the lug and the tube, bonding them when the metal cools.

It used to be thought that welded steel would not be strong enough for making bikes because the heat involved in the welding would make the steel weak and brittle but it proved not to be true and in fact there have been steel alloys developed since that become stronger when heat treated like Reynolds 953. So there's no need to use lugs any more and you can build a lighter frame without them, but I like how they look.

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm sure the price is frightening (I'm afraid to ask) but I'm also sure it's possible to spend the same amount on an exotic carbon bike, and I know which is more likely to still be on the road in twenty years.

Well, indeed. The price is around €2500 for frame, fork and headset, but you could easily spend that on one of your comedy lightweight frames that would snap in two in a stiff breeze.

niceonetom wrote: »

Do you know the details of the geo, 'hat? How different are the angles and rakes etc. from an off the peg bike?

Seat tube – 57c-c
Seat angle – 72.5
Top tube – 55.0
Top tube slope – 2.0
Head angle – 72.3
Fork rake – 4.7
Trail – 5.9
Bottom bracket drop – 7.5
Chainstay length – 41.8

Nothing massively outre there - the angles are a little slacker than your average modern road bike which is appropriate given my taste for long distance rides. What you probably wouldn't see on a production bike is a 55cm top tube on a 57cm bike.

Planet X

Flux helps the solder to flow.

Lumen

Planet X wrote: »

Flux helps the solder to flow.

But what happens when you get to 88mph? Do you go back to a time when everyone rode lugged steel bikes?

Planet X

I thought the consensus was to quote everything in KPH? No?

niceonetom

rottenhat wrote: »

Seat tube – 57c-c
Seat angle – 72.5
Top tube – 55.0
Top tube slope – 2.0
Head angle – 72.3
Fork rake – 4.7
Trail – 5.9
Bottom bracket drop – 7.5
Chainstay length – 41.8

Nothing massively outre there - the angles are a little slacker than your average modern road bike which is appropriate given my taste for long distance rides. What you probably wouldn't see on a production bike is a 55cm top tube on a 57cm bike.

Interesting. I don't claim to understand how the custom fork will effect handling but other than that it seems like it would suit you very well. The seat tube is longer than I would have thought for you, but the BB drop is more so it makes sense, and the slightly shorter toptube makes sense having seen you try to touch your toes. The curvy seat stays looks awesome. Will the lugs (nice - interesting without being frilly and ott) be outlined?

Decided on a groupset? Athena? I'm not seeing downtube shifters on that.

rottenhat

niceonetom wrote: »

Interesting. I don't claim to understand how the custom fork will effect handling but other than that it seems like it would suit you very well. The seat tube is longer than I would have thought for you, but the BB drop is more so it makes sense, and the slightly shorter toptube makes sense having seen you try to touch your toes.

Oh, snap! I actually have quite long legs...the Rivendell (which really has a lot of BB drop) has a 58.5 seat tube with a 56 top tube.

niceonetom wrote: »

Will the lugs (nice - interesting without being frilly and ott) be outlined?

Nope, I'm not a fan of pinstriping, especially after I read it was in part a device to disguise sloppy brazing on cheap British bikes. There will be most likely be contrasting fill in the cutouts though.

niceonetom wrote: »

Decided on a groupset? Athena? I'm not seeing downtube shifters on that.

Yep, Athena with alloy cranks, subbing in Shimano long-reach brakes for the skeleton brakes.

TinyExplosions

I love your lugs rottenhat -very jealous here

rottenhat

There was a short break in the build while his folks were visiting but he expects to have it complete by the end of the week:

rottenhat

And one more:

Caroline_ie

interresting shape. Though of the colour more?
black and orange FTW

rottenhat

If I see another black bike I think I'm going to cry. Black bikes with ugly black components on them...bike manufacturers are such sheep.

I have to decide within the next day or two but I'm still thinking of either a burgundy/orange fade or burgundy with cream panels, unless another look through the gallery on the website gives me any brighter ideas. Pity the pictures on Joe Bell's website are so poor - they do no justice to his work whatsoever.

Caroline_ie

Yes you're right ... Burgundy/Orange would look amazing.

Lumen

rottenhat wrote: »

I'm still thinking of either a burgundy/orange fade or burgundy with cream panels

Panels, panels!

AstraMonti

Lumen wrote: »

Panels, panels!

Totally agree, it will look class on a steel frame.

Chips Lovell

Those seatstays are very Pinarello.

rottenhat

The frame is finished. The fork will be done this morning and shipped to Joe Bell later today.

Redjeep!

Nice bike. Thanks for sharing these photos.

Love the 7 in the background. Still my dream car. One day maybe.

rottenhat

He races it when he's not working on bikes. Sounds like a terrible life, really.

Wez

They make it look so easy.. I'd love to have a go at even modifying a frame sometime. Like changing dropouts/seat stay position as I've seen done before.

Gotta find a worthy candidate first..

Lovely frame btw, colour scheme sounds nice too!

rottenhat

Fork is done, it's all en route to the painter.

rottenhat

In his last email, Dave did say that he'd enjoyed reading this thread, and that he might be willing to answer any questions you have about what he does, so if you have any, post them here and hopefully he'll have time to register and answer them.

I'll kick off - what tubings do you use, and what characteristics do those alloys have that make them appropriate to given riders?

rottenhat

Just going to give this a quick bump in case people who don't log on over the weekend might have missed the post above - anyone have any questions for Dave?

Dave Kirk

rottenhat wrote: »

In his last email, Dave did say that he'd enjoyed reading this thread, and that he might be willing to answer any questions you have about what he does, so if you have any, post them here and hopefully he'll have time to register and answer them.

I'll kick off - what tubings do you use, and what characteristics do those alloys have that make them appropriate to given riders?

Hey there,

Shortly after I started building this frame for rottenhat he sent me a link to your forum. Nice place you have here. I participate in a few US based forums that are similar but so many are so contentious that I stay away.

When I participate on a forum I do my absolute best to not ever promote my own product. I have a website that takes care of that and feel it's in bad taste to come into a forum and try to sell stuff. It feels like inviting someone to dinner and then in the middle of it trying to sell you stuff - just not right IMO. I do try to give my opinions as best I can and they are based on being a professional builder for the last 20 years and being in the bike business for the past 30 years. That last sentence makes me feel old!

Anyway......... I make steel bikes for a living but that does not in any way mean that I think steel is the only choice out there. There are bikes of most every material that I personally lust after and think are very cool. One of these days I'll own a carbon "Crumpton" for example. That guy makes a sweet bike. I say this because on rare occasions folks will look at my posts on a subject through the "of course he says that - he makes steel bikes" filter.




So with all that crap aside here's an answer to rottenhat's question................

I choose the tubes for all the bikes I build based on the needs of the rider. The way the bike is to be used, the type of rider that will be riding it, the size and weight of the rider...etc. I suppose it goes without saying that a light rider using the bike on smooth roads won't need the same tubes as a heavy rider on rough roads. For this bike I used a mix of Reynolds tubes. The main triangle is 725 and the chain and seat stays are special pieces that Reynolds makes just for me. I like the 725 tubes very much because they are light and strong and more importantly available in many diameters, wall thicknesses, and butt lengths. This really give the builder some latitude in the design to get the ride just right.

This might sound crazy to some but the alloy of the tube has no direct effect on the ride quality. None. What the alloy effects is the strength of the material of the tube so more or less of the material can be used to make a safe tube. In other words, the stronger the alloy the lighter one can make the tube because it can be thinner and still be safe. At the same time all alloys of steel have the same stiffness - from 953 to water pipe - if it's the same diameter and wall thickness, it's the same stiffness. So while some of the newer high tech tubes can be made very light and still be safe that doesn't mean they are the best choice for a given rider as they also become more flexible as they become thinner and lighter.

So in selecting a tubeset one must pick the tubes based on the stiffness needed for that rider and that in turn will dictate the diameter and wall thickness which in the end will suggest the best alloy. So the selection is made in a backward way really. First diameter and wal,l and then alloy.

I use 725 on many of my bikes because it has a good blend of strength and weight and is a very durable tube. 725 is heat treated (which makes it stronger) but it is a more mild heat treatment which will not make the tube brittle and subject to snapping in two if you stick the front wheel deep into a pothole. I give a lifetime warrantee on all my bikes and it would be very bad business to make lots of bikes that come will apart years down the road.

I hope I've answered the question. If anyone has any questions about anything to do with framebuilding, handling, geometry, fit etc I'll do my best. As humorist Spaulding Gray once said - "I don't promise answers but I do promise responses".

Thanks for reading,

Dave

Caroline_ie

Rottenhat, has the bike arrived yet?

bbosco

I can't believe I missed this thread until now

Thanks to Dave for his post and to rottenhat for the thread.

If Dave is still keeping an eye on this board, I'd love to ask him about the effects of different welding methods on the performance of a bike.
I used to have an old steel lugged and brazed frame (Columbus Aelle) and replaced it a couple of years ago with a modern, lightweight, tig-welded steel frame (Dedacciai 16.5). There are lots of differences in how the bike performs and feels but I've never understood how much of that is due to the tube materials, the different tube shapes (the new frame has oval and tear-drop shaped tubes as opposed to the standard straight and round Aelle tubes) and how much is due to the different ways in which the tubes are put together. People talk a lot about the lugs on classic steel frames and I can appreciate them from an aesthetic point of view, but what function do they perform and how well do they perform it in comparison with tig-welding?

Thanks again
bbosco

Dave Kirk

bbosco wrote: »

I can't believe I missed this thread until now

Thanks to Dave for his post and to rottenhat for the thread.

If Dave is still keeping an eye on this board, I'd love to ask him about the effects of different welding methods on the performance of a bike.
I used to have an old steel lugged and brazed frame (Columbus Aelle) and replaced it a couple of years ago with a modern, lightweight, tig-welded steel frame (Dedacciai 16.5). There are lots of differences in how the bike performs and feels but I've never understood how much of that is due to the tube materials, the different tube shapes (the new frame has oval and tear-drop shaped tubes as opposed to the standard straight and round Aelle tubes) and how much is due to the different ways in which the tubes are put together. People talk a lot about the lugs on classic steel frames and I can appreciate them from an aesthetic point of view, but what function do they perform and how well do they perform it in comparison with tig-welding?

Thanks again
bbosco

Good Morning,

I subscribed to this thread and just got a notice.

You ask a few good questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

1) joining methods - despite what you might hear out there there no difference in performance or ride quality can be attributed to the way the tubes are hooked together. The tubes don't 'care' how they are put together just as long as it's a solid joint. Once they are hooked together they don't care if they are lugged, fillet brazed, or tig welded and you can not feel the difference on the road.

1a) properly done any of the popular joining methods can make a very nice riding bike. As I said above the joining method has nothing to do with the ride quality or strength but it does have a good bit to do with fatigue resistance. When you've had a bike for 5 years and it "suddenly" cracks during normal use this can most often be chalked up to a lack of fatigue resistance. The 3 main joining methods have much difference fatigue resistances. The reason being that more or less heat was used to make the joint and the amount of heat the tube sees greatly influences the tube's life-span. Tig welded bikes have the least fatigue resistance (FR) because the welding process brings the temperature all the way up to the tube's melting point or about 3500* F and this can greatly effect the molecular structure of the metal. Lugged and fillet brazed bikes have a much greater FR because the builder isn't melting the tubes together but instead is warming them enough so that the brazing material (brass for fillets and silver of lugs) will melt and flow into the joint. Think of it almost like using a hot glue gun. Fillet brazing brings the tubes up to about 1800* F and silver brazed lugs are done at about 1200* F so neither of them upset the molecular structure of the material. What this means in the long run is that the tig bike is more likely to have the tube fail adjacent to the joint (the weld itself will not break unless it was poorly done). This Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) is the trouble with tig bikes. Don't get me wrong, I don't want you to think that a tigged bike will come flying apart when it gets to be a few years old......... but it is more likely , in the long run, to fail when compared to lugged or fillet brazed bikes. This is one of the reasons I build with only fillets or lugs as all my work carries a lifetime warrantee. I also just like brazing much better than welding. Brazing is fun for me and I can make it look anyway I want in the end and that gives me an artistic outlet. I like making pretty things - call me shallow.

2) road feel - the biggest contributor to ride quality is fit/geometry and a close second is the tubing. For simplicity's sake let's focus on the tubing. The thing that most changes the way a tube behaves and the way it makes the bike ride is tube diameter. Tube diameter is king. I suppose it might go without saying but a larger diameter tube is much stiffer than a smaller tube. So if you want a uber-stiff bike then you want huge tubes. The wall thickness of the tube also influences the stiffness of the tube/frame but to a much smaller degree. Wall thickness is most important when building in strength and fatigue resistance. A large, very thin tube can be plenty stiff but it will be prone to 'beer canning' and failure. So to make a tube safe it needs to have enough wall thickness to prevent that.

2a) tube shape also has an effect on the feel of a frame and it's strength/durability. Most tubes are round but some folks use oval or other shape tubes. Some will claim that they do so for stiffness or ride quality reasons and this is IMO, usually a red herring. The real reason most use oval tubes is much more pragmatic - it's that if the tube was left round it would be too large where is meets another tube and would swallow it. But if you ovalize the tube it won't so they are ovalized to make joining a large tube to a small tube easier. The other reason some tubes are oval, particularly down tubes, is to give a large flat area in which one can place a very large logo that can be seen in race photos. I realize this might sound more than a bit cynical but it's the truth of the matter and it's the first thing the tube companies tell the builder - just how big a logo can fit on that tube. It seldom has any real structural reason.

I hope this long winded answer gives you what you are looking for. let me know if I didn't answer your question.

Stay well,


Dave

bbosco

Dave,
Thank you for such a full and interesting reply. It's fascinating to hear about this stuff from a true expert.

All the best
bbosco