Green Party will pull out if members vote down NAMA/Programme for Government

turgon

Link: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0917/breaking6.htm

Green Party leader John Gormley said his party will pull out of Government if its party members reject Nama and the new programme for government at the Green Party’s convention scheduled to take place on October 10th.

This might give the grassroots an opportunity to pull the plug on Government. Given the amount of discontent one hears about amongst the grassroots Im surprised more hasnt been made of this comment, which was given on radio earlier this afternoon. Could this be the end, or will the green party realize they are going nowhere and stay in for the long run?

Euro_Kraut

Very interesting! He has turned the vote into a vote on government participation rather than one on NAMA.

My hunch is the Green rank and file will vote against NAMA. The prog for government vote might be carried. But to be honest if the coalition cannot pass the NAMA bill they are effectivly finished.

Biggins

Start praying NOW folks.

Liam Byrne

Given the u-turn that the Greens pulled on their members and the public about going INTO government with the parasites, I won't hold my breath....

.......but I will keep my fingers crossed!

maynooth_rules

I have everything crossed but i don't hold much faith. The Greens have proven themselves to be completly spineless, and most of their members are probably aware that the party will become a pointless force after the next election. I voted for Mary White of the Greens last time and i am still absolutly disgusted with myself for it.

bmaxi

I have to agree, the gutless Greens are history and they know it. After the debacle that was the local elections how could they think otherwise? No doubt they will hold on to the big salaries for as long as possible, just adding insult to injury by insisting on penal carbon taxes on the Irish taxpayer while China, Russia and half the rest of the world burn everything they can get their hands on.
P*ss off and never come back and good riddance.

thebman

How does one get a vote on the future of the country at this green meeting?

If I join tomorrow do I qualify?

Sign me up if its that easy

MeatProduct

Now would be a good time for us to write letters to our local Green representatives. Sent mine off yesterday.

Nick

Riskymove

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

It's a sort of "Damned if we do........." situation for the Greens but it had been assumed, until Sargent's little about face, that one thing the Greens had was a measure of integrity.
Gormley and Co. have proven adept at taking it up the a*se from Biffo and like any salacious partner you never know what infection you'll pick up. It remains to be seen if the Green grass roots (pardon the pun) have maintained some of the integrity prostituted by the leadership.

is_that_so

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

I think it's more the cute hoor Dan Boyle behind it. One comment I read at the time of their Lisbon vote was that many of the main objectors had left the party so the 2/3 majority needed was always going to be a bit easier to get. The Greens want to get credit for anything in NAMA that they can claim as green policy. Once they can do that the pitch will be a little easier. The threat is part of a negotiating posturing IMO however with FG now all but resigned to "aggressively pursuing amendments" to NAMA, it means they could have an easier time of it.

In my view much of the anger vented at NAMA was based on the very wild and very loose speculation on what NAMA would be. Now that we can see the framework it's an opportunity to attempt to take away as much of the risk as possible by getting suitable amendments from all quarters into it.

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through.

Ste.phen

thebman wrote: »

How does one get a vote on the future of the country at this green meeting?

If I join tomorrow do I qualify?

Sign me up if its that easy

Need to be a member 6 months, I believe

ynotdu

Assuming the Greens did pull out what way would the figures stack up for the Govt?(that is if the Independants and FF TD's outside of the whip continued to vote with them)

Another thing i,d like to know is. what do other postors think about the idea that in the event the Govt does fall do You think the President should exercise her right to allow other parties a chance to form a govt without an election?

It seems like a lousy time in our history to have an election:(

Red Alert

I voted for Eamonn Ryan No. 1 and will no do so again because of this.

is_that_so

ynotdu wrote: »

Assuming the Greens did pull out what way would the figures stack up for the Govt?(that is if the Independants and FF TD's outside of the whip continued to vote with them)

Another thing i,d like to know is. what do other postors think about the idea that in the event the Govt does fall do You think the President should exercise her right to allow other parties a chance to form a govt without an election?

It seems like a lousy time in our history to have an election:(

Yes a very bad time indeed but the most likely outcome of the Greens pulling out. Labour/FG stand at 72, the same as FF. Balance this against the 85 seats plus that FG/Labour would probably get in a new election and the opportunity to completely humiliate FF you can see why they would favour that option. It would also give them a new mandate where the public would be voting on our current predicament and not where we seemed to be in 2007.

A "new" government in this Dail would have to come up with its own plan and budget which would run the risk of being defeated. There's no guarantee that a FG/Labour based government would come to agreement on an alternative to NAMA and as for the rest of them who knows. In short it would an awful mess. Secretly, for all their hounding of the Greens, they must be hoping NAMA does pass as it'll avoid them having to get a plan through.

Euro_Kraut

Red Alert wrote: »

I voted for Eamonn Ryan No. 1 and will no do so again because of this.

You won't vote for him they vote to support or if they vote not to support it?

SeanW

is_that_so wrote: »

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through

I don't understand this - the dogs on the street know that FF is only interested in bailing out the property developers, and the banks. Are you seriously suggesting that we should run with the bailout-the-developers plan simply because we don't have time to think of something better?

There have been banking maladies before in human history, and most of the time they self corrected over time. That's how the free market works - if there are a load of creditworthy businesses and people looking to pay a nice price for access to finance, someone will presumably set up a bank to provide it.

If government is to get involved, it should be to ensure that anyone who wants to set up a private "good bank" should be able to do so with little hassle, or failing that should look at other ways of making finance available such as setting up a good bank of its own. This would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole load of bad debts owed by FFs developer buddies.

NAMA is little more than a bailout for the fat cats AND it will ensure that next time there is a bubble, the banks will act like an even bigger bunch of tools because they're "too important" to be let fail, even if we have to destroy ourselves to protect them. As it is, the NAMA plan will likely squander the wealth of at least a generation for less than nothing.

I voted for a Green (no. 2) in the last election and if the Greens want to get another vote from me in my lifetime, they had better pull the plug on this farce!

Liam Byrne

is_that_so wrote: »

In my view much of the anger vented at NAMA was based on the very wild and very loose speculation on what NAMA would be. Now that we can see the framework it's an opportunity to attempt to take away as much of the risk as possible by getting suitable amendments from all quarters into it.

It's true that SOME of the anger was based on the fact that it was vague, but the REMAINING anger is that FF are being so flaithulach with OUR money, and are - as has been pointed out - privatising profits while socialising losses.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE; thereby getting the bad loans off the banks books, while simultaneously acknowledging that bad decisions gets you in the ****, and it's up to you to sort it out ?

is_that_so wrote: »

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through.

And why, pray tell, has it taken six months ? I mean, the **** in FF hit us with TWO budgets almost immediately.......it's really odd that they dropped this "EMERGENCY" legislation on us just before they fecked off on a 3-month break! :mad: Wallop Joe Soap because of the "crisis", but feck off on hols when it comes to sorting out those who got us into this mess.

The FACT is that we should be paying THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE; no amount of lies is going to change the fact that we are paying 7 BILLION over the odds for stuff that NO-ONE WANTS, and that the banks and developers who landed us in this crap will be able to continue.

The ONLY just option was to set up a STATE BANK using the money (similar to a Credit Union - maybe even based on that platform) and let the **** who got their bonuses and overpaid fat-cat salaries and whatever other perks rot in hell as with all "commercial" entities where dodgy decisions are made.

Riskymove

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE;

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

Liam Byrne

Riskymove wrote: »

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

How about this for a novel idea ? ASK someone what they'd be prepared to pay for it.....

Or are we so far up the arses of the banks that anyone having the gall to suggest what something is worth - AS IS, not as an "investment" - would be immediately denied the possible finance for it because they'd pissed off the banks ?

Riskymove wrote: »

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

Ah yes - Lenihan's figures; the ones that were revised so much from last October's budget that he had to screw us with a subsequent budget......I think I'd trust a dartboard more than that idiot.

Riskymove

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about this for a novel idea ? ASK someone what they'd be prepared to pay for it.....

er....what?......seriously....what?

is_that_so

SeanW wrote: »

I don't understand this - the dogs on the street know that FF is only interested in bailing out the property developers, and the banks. Are you seriously suggesting that we should run with the bailout-the-developers plan simply because we don't have time to think of something better?



If government is to get involved, it should be to ensure that anyone who wants to set up a private "good bank" should be able to do so with little hassle, or failing that should look at other ways of making finance available such as setting up a good bank of its own. This would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole load of bad debts owed by FFs developer buddies.

NAMA is little more than a bailout for the fat cats AND it will ensure that next time there is a bubble, the banks will act like an even bigger bunch of tools because they're "too important" to be let fail, even if we have to destroy ourselves to protect them. As it is, the NAMA plan will likely squander the wealth of at least a generation for less than nothing.

I voted for a Green (no. 2) in the last election and if the Greens want to get another vote from me in my lifetime, they had better pull the plug on this farce!

If NAMA fails to pass due to the Greens pulling out and we get a new government we'll still need a plan. Judging by the interest and support the alternative plans have generated it could be some time before we get one.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's true that SOME of the anger was based on the fact that it was vague, but the REMAINING anger is that FF are being so flaithulach with OUR money, and are - as has been pointed out - privatising profits while socialising losses.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE; thereby getting the bad loans off the banks books, while simultaneously acknowledging that bad decisions gets you in the ****, and it's up to you to sort it out ?



And why, pray tell, has it taken six months ? I mean, the **** in FF hit us with TWO budgets almost immediately.......it's really odd that they dropped this "EMERGENCY" legislation on us just before they fecked off on a 3-month break! :mad: Wallop Joe Soap because of the "crisis", but feck off on hols when it comes to sorting out those who got us into this mess.

The FACT is that we should be paying THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE; no amount of lies is going to change the fact that we are paying 7 BILLION over the odds for stuff that NO-ONE WANTS, and that the banks and developers who landed us in this crap will be able to continue.

The ONLY just option was to set up a STATE BANK using the money (similar to a Credit Union - maybe even based on that platform) and let the **** who got their bonuses and overpaid fat-cat salaries and whatever other perks rot in hell as with all "commercial" entities where dodgy decisions are made.

Well NAMA looks like it'll be the way we'll be going.That said I do agree about the unacceptable delay. That said an alternative plan to NAMA would take time to agree and set up and I'm not so sure the obvious choice for Govt -Labour/FG would be be able to do that. Bruton has also hinted at putting forward amendments which is why I reckon that they will still oppose it but hope the Greens vote for it.

Liam Byrne

is_that_so wrote: »

If NAMA fails to pass due to the Greens pulling out and we get a new government we'll still need a plan. Judging by the interest and support the alternative plans have generated it could be some time before we get one.

I'd MUCH prefer a delay followed by a fair and equitable one, rather than a bailout that'll cost us €54,000,000,000!!!!!

is_that_so wrote: »

Well NAMA looks like it'll be the way we'll be going.That said I do agree about the unacceptable delay.

Probably part of the plan; delay it for "long enough" so that FF can trot out the line that it's too late to come up with a better alternative.

is_that_so wrote: »

That said an alternative plan to NAMA would take time to agree and set up and I'm not so sure the obvious choice for Govt -Labour/FG would be be able to do that.

Again, an immediate supposition that Labour & FG couldn't do a better job than the half-assed mess of lies and half-truths currently being trotted out.

I'm not sure that Labour and FG couldn't come up with a better plan......so that part of your argument is moot, as both points of view are OPINION ONLY and therefore completely devoid of facts.

is_that_so wrote: »

Bruton has also hinted at putting forward amendments which is why I reckon that they will still oppose it but hope the Greens vote for it.

Again, "you reckon".......

I know it's an opinion board, but given that you seem to support NAMA, would you care to include any FACTS that might indicate why you're in favour of it ?

Liam Byrne

Riskymove wrote: »

er....what?......seriously....what?

If you were running a business and had some stock that wasn't selling, and no-one would buy it, the USUAL approach is to either (a) drop the price to cut your losses and get rid of it or (b) accept all offers.

Offering it at a "discount" :rolleyes: of more than it's worth is not (usually) acceptable.

If it were (as it should be) a "liquidation sale" of banks and developers assets, they'd take whatever the hell they could get for it.

bangersandmash

Riskymove wrote: »

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

I'm not sure I follow. According to the DoF figures, NAMA will pay €54bn for loans backed by property they value at €47bn. So even by their own admission they aren't paying the market rate as they define it?

As for know one really knowing, well if I was in doubt about making a major financial transaction I would err on the side of caution. Considering the risk here, would a cautious conservative valuation not be appropriate?

is_that_so

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd MUCH prefer a delay followed by a fair and equitable one, rather than a bailout that'll cost us €54,000,000,000!!!!!



Probably part of the plan; delay it for "long enough" so that FF can trot out the line that it's too late to come up with a better alternative.

Banks have toxic debt. We need to take care of it in some way and it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again, an immediate supposition that Labour & FG couldn't do a better job than the half-assed mess of lies and half-truths currently being trotted out.

I'm not sure that Labour and FG couldn't come up with a better plan......so that part of your argument is moot, as both points of view are OPINION ONLY and therefore completely devoid of facts.

They have two very different plans so your point here is what exactly? My point is that it would be difficult to reconcile their current positions and reach agreement.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again, "you reckon".......

I know it's an opinion board, but given that you seem to support NAMA, would you care to include any FACTS that might indicate why you're in favour of it ?

I don't support NAMA per se but I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I also believe that it will be passed so being anti-NAMA is really something of a waste of time. Some of what is proposed is logical and it is a solution although it is predicated on very unclear valuations. That is my concern but there are at least three weeks before a vote comes about and ample opportunity for all parties to propose amendments to it. In theory it could work as long as what has been proposed is actually credible but neither you , I nor any other Mystic Meg can say if it will work.

My comments and thoughts on another thread.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62150697&postcount=13

Biggins

This is THEE one LAST final chance for the Greens to gain back some form of credibility with a show of balls - to put it bluntly.
Up to now with Gormless Gormley in charge with his Dail co-conspirators they have been Fianna Fails lapdog.

If they screw up this absolutely final chance to win back the electorate - they truly are fcuked!
Both now and for a VERY long time for the foreseeable future. At the next general election and the next one and the next one and the...

ynotdu

Biggins wrote: »

This is THEE one LAST final chance for the Greens to gain back some form of credibility with a show of balls - to put it bluntly.
Up to now with Gormless Gormley in charge with his Dail co-conspirators they have been Fianna Fails lapdog.

If they screw up this absolutely final chance to win back the electorate - they truly are fcuked!
Both now and for a VERY long time for the foreseeable future. At the next general election and the next one and the next one and the...

Hi,ya Biggins.
Eamonn Ryan said that the green party is based on an 'idea'
if nothing else i would agree with him on that(the German greens were wiped out but came storming back,albeit with diffrient faces.

honestly though would,nt an election now just destabelise IRELAND.inc even more:eek:

Biggins

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi, ya Biggins.
Eamonn Ryan said that the green party is based on an 'idea'
if nothing else i would agree with him on that(the German greens were wiped out but came storming back,albeit with different faces.

honestly though would,nt an election now just destabilise IRELAND.inc even more :eek:

Well, I'm sure the banks will still be open, business will still be running or try to still run.
Shops in your high street will continue to sell. The trains and services will continue to operate.

I'm sick of this threat "O' its all going to fall down upon our ears if FF is forced into an election!"
Cobblers. The world will survive and life will go on in Ireland.
Its just a VERY handy threat for FF to hang over our heads which by coincidence :rolleyes: keeps that FF shower in power.

ynotdu

Well Bigs it's true that Govts collapse and the Sky does not drop in!

How many has Italy and Japan had since ww2?

but as an American politicion was caught on microphone saying"Its all about perception"(abroad):D

Idbatterim

if the greens had pulled out of government over nama, there would have to be a re election, where the greens would have probably won far more seats... given the fact they could have righted the wrongs and chose not to, they need never ever knock on my door looking for a vote. This thing is far bigger than any political figure or party, for the greater good, the plug should and could have been pulled by the greens and the whole things could have been ended once and for all! what a disgusting failure / let down!

Biggins

ynotdu wrote: »

Well Bigs it's true that Govts collapse and the Sky does not drop in!

How many has Italy and Japan had since ww2?

but as an American politician was caught on microphone saying "Its all about perception" (abroad)

Just on the Italy and Japan point there are many dynamics to the reasons why they are so unstable.
(Trade, Tax, Raw Materials, etc...)
Maybe a whole discussion topic for another day?
I certainly wouldn't start stating we are going down the same road as them just yet (nor do I think you are inferring it either).

It is a great degree "all about perception" but then we have had major change of government before.
If as a lot are saying (including myself sometimes admittedly) that FF and FG are nearly the same - I don't expect to see radical changes over night!

Life will go on...

ynotdu

Americas input at farmleigh think tank today about NAMA;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RpSv3HjpEw

Riskymove

bangersandmash wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow. According to the DoF figures, NAMA will pay €54bn for loans backed by property they value at €47bn. So even by their own admission they aren't paying the market rate as they define it?

As for know one really knowing, well if I was in doubt about making a major financial transaction I would err on the side of caution. Considering the risk here, would a cautious conservative valuation not be appropriate?

well exactly...they value the assets at €47bn but we don't really know how they came to that figure but it is an estimate. the actual market value if they were being sold could be much lower

If it were (as it should be) a "liquidation sale" of banks and developers assets, they'd take whatever the hell they could get for it.

yes as above, but the last thing we'd want NAMA to do surely is to have a firesale of the assets?

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

lol you can still estimate the value based on what is selling ATM. There is some selling/buying going on or you could do it on rental value markets and work it off that if you have to.

To assume everything is fine and we are at the bottom seems a bit unrealistic to me.

If nobody is willing to buy, its most likely because they feel we aren't at the bottom of the market and they aren't happy to buy at the prices on offer ATM.

SkepticOne

turgon wrote: »

This might give the grassroots an opportunity to pull the plug on Government. Given the amount of discontent one hears about amongst the grassroots Im surprised more hasnt been made of this comment, which was given on radio earlier this afternoon. Could this be the end, or will the green party realize they are going nowhere and stay in for the long run?

A vote against NAMA was always going to be a vote to bring down the Government. Gormley is trying to spin it so that it looks like it is a vote against power for the Greens, imo.

Nottoosure

I heard ex CEO of the Bank of Ireland, Michael Siddon (not too sure how the surname is spelt), on Cooper this evening, he was venting about the size of the Social Welfare bill ballooning to 5-6 million (picking on lone parents particularly, some of which are widows). 54 billion to bail out banks & developers. A million seconds is (approx) 13 days, a billion seconds is (approx) 31 years, by 54 that's a lot of Euro & I'm scared for my family, very, very scared.

Back in the 80's we had recession, but jobs became the issue, I don't see any of our glorious leaders doing anything about job creation, on the other hand, I see loads of dodgy behaviour coming out of our "Job Creation" service called Fás.

Tell me the date & time of the revolution, I'll be there.

thebman

lol at a man that should not have a job anymore saying people who have lost theirs should be getting less than they are.

I'm pretty sure the closest thing to revolution is on tomorrow @ 1.

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

yes as above, but the last thing we'd want NAMA to do surely is to have a firesale of the assets?

Indeed, but if there is to be a fire sale, rather before we pay an inflated price for them than after.
I don't trust FF to act in the public interest in this, their record of acting thus is non-existent, why should this time be any different.

coco0981

thebman wrote: »

lol at a man that should not have a job anymore saying people who have lost theirs should be getting less than they are.

I'm pretty sure the closest thing to revolution is on tomorrow @ 1.

To be fair Michael Soden quit BOI in 2004 over an entirely different controversy so he was gone before the housing madness got into full swing

nacho libre

i think this is obviously just a ploy to coerce the grassroot members into voting for nama by winning last minute concession from Fianna Fail. so the green minister can look good in the eyes of the public and maintain power. i think isthatso is right when he says FG secretly want Nama to pass as they don't want the headache of trying to create an alternative proposal with Labour. They know this is the best hope of getting credit flowing... but obviously for public consumption they have to be seen to oppose.

i'm just waiting for the day we'll see FF people finding their voice again on boards.ie, where they'll crowing about how Brian Lenihan acted like a father to the nation in 2009 by taking the hard decisions that were needed to stave off an economic nuclear winter.

bSlick

Why should we believe anything FF says about the value of the properties anyway? I mean seriously, we are talking about the corruption party here, a party that has shown countless times before that it is prepared to straight out lie to the electorate when it suits them and a party that has paid way over the odds for every single major project they've been involved in previously. Imo these toxic assets are very likely worth way less than the 47bn figure given and I also believe that in the end, alot more than 54bn will be going to the banks/developers, as that is the way FF have always operated in the past.

Nothing they say can be trusted at this stage.

bSlick

If Gormley was in opposition you can guarantee he'd be foaming at the mouth at the prospect of NAMA and would be mouthing off non-stop about how its a bailout for the banks/deveopers. I have never seen anything like the hypocrisy of John Gormley. Imo he has one last chance to salvage what is left of his and the Greens reputation and pull the plug on this incompetent, corrupt shower of pricks that are about sign off on an unprecedented transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

rcecil

Oh please come back to doing what you do best. OPPOSITION! There is growing support for a strong coalition including the non timid Greens, Socialists, Independents and Sinn Fein. We wouldn't be in this mess if we had real grass roots work being done.

is_that_so

Idbatterim wrote: »

if the greens had pulled out of government over nama, there would have to be a re election, where the greens would have probably won far more seats... given the fact they could have righted the wrongs and chose not to, they need never ever knock on my door looking for a vote. This thing is far bigger than any political figure or party, for the greater good, the plug should and could have been pulled by the greens and the whole things could have been ended once and for all! what a disgusting failure / let down!

The Greens as an entity are not really a political party as FF/FG/Labour are, more a collection of activists. As such they are driven by their "principles" and the policies that come from those principles. It is all well and good to claim democratic principles but odd that the only thing they are submitting to their members is NAMA. EU treaties like Lisbon and the programme for government were always going be debated.

So they are faced with a dilemma. As it stands the party are looking at almost complete annihilation. Taking the plunge on NAMA will not really change that. Even with a possible election premium for pulling down NAMA there is far too much they can be tarred with , even with the credit for it.

Accepting NAMA with amendments would mean that they would be in a better position to address the plan for government and have their policies implemented. IMO this is far more important to them and an opportunity to have a longer-lasting legacy on our future. In short I think the Green grassroots will be angry but ultimately the possibility of continuing in Govt, even if it's only for another few months will "reluctantly" sway them and they'll go back to trying to wag the dog of FF.

This piece from Noel Whelan is interesting commentary on the "democracy of the Greens". Much of it I agree with although I think the Green "NAMA debate" has more to do with horse trading on the plan for government.

Why are elected Dáil members abrogating responsibility for Nama to party members?

THE GREEN Party is playing a dangerous game. Whatever view one takes of the merits or otherwise of Nama, it must be unnerving that the fate of the most significant legislative proposal ever to come before Dáil Éireann is being left in the hands of a few hundred Green Party members.
...

Full story

thebman

I'd be surprised if the greens voted for NAMA, it basically spells death for their party as they'll never get a vote again from many people ever again. It also is the only way they can really demonstrate they have not just become baby FF.

Then there is NAMA itself which is just a crap idea IMHO.

Greens need to look at what happened to the PD's, they are next to disappear IMO if they go along with NAMA.

GSF

I'm not really sure the bankers get the enormity of what they have caused. Speaking to one recently they seem to think that NAMA will allow them to go back to "business as usual". That seems to be implicit in NAMA too: for it to be sucessful we need another hike in house prices. How that will be achieved while taxing disposable income at higher levels, cutting salaries, increasing ECB rates and higher unemployment is anybody's guess.

thebman

GSF wrote: »

I'm not really sure the bankers get the enormity of what they have caused. Speaking to one recently they seem to think that NAMA will allow them to go back to "business as usual". That seems to be implicit in NAMA too: for it to be sucessful we need another hike in house prices. How that will be achieved while taxing disposable income at higher levels, cutting salaries, increasing ECB rates and higher unemployment is anybody's guess.

Lol I don't think they are that naive. They know what they are at. They are playing the government who are the naive ones that think that is what will occur with NAMA.

Nobody knows better than the bankers that a return to a housing bubble will not occur, at least not without massive population growth most likely from immigration on a level not likely to occur seeing as Ireland has lost its reputation as a place to go for most people I imagine and there are few jobs to be had in our real core industries ATM.

is_that_so

thebman wrote: »

I'd be surprised if the greens voted for NAMA, it basically spells death for their party as they'll never get a vote again from many people ever again. It also is the only way they can really demonstrate they have not just become baby FF.

Then there is NAMA itself which is just a crap idea IMHO.

Greens need to look at what happened to the PD's, they are next to disappear IMO if they go along with NAMA.

The PDs ceased to mean anything and most of their policies became FF policies or sounded like FG policies. Like the Greens they did have the power to implement those policies and power for a small party is very attractive.
The legislation for NAMA is not set in stone. The big issue most people have is the risk to the taxpayer. There will be three weeks to address that with amendments.

So from a Green point of view they can try get as many concessions on NAMA as possible or IMO more importantly on the plan for government and live to fight another day or they can walk and get to meet their doom sooner. Even if they aren't wiped out they'll be opposition anyway.
Meanwhile it'll be January and there'll be threads here imploring Labour to walk from the new NAMA plan.

breadandjam

If the Greens decide to vote no and Gormley decides to pull out it will be the end of the Greens as a viable force in Irish Politics. They may decide to stay in and vote with the government not because they believe in Nama but because they think they can do more good in Government and change FF policies and this might stand to them in the next election.
The problem is that every time they support FF they lose even more crediblity with the public and it also makes it harder for them to say no to FF in the future and easier for FF to ignore them.

edanto

The point above about how the Greens would be speaking about NAMA if they were in opposition is very well made and bears thinking about.

If they look at an issue a particular way, what changes when they are in power? Why would they consider if differently? I think they're suffering from shock personally, and haven't relaxed in two years, and because of that will support NAMA at Cabinet.

I'm glad that the membership have an opportunity to influence the actions of the government - I just wish I knew a few GP members, so I could try and influence them!