Fagan in action this weekend.

shels4ever

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=9807

Peckham

...and confirmed for NYC marathon. A constantly changing story! :rolleyes:

Clum

A few comments from Martin at the end of this article on irishcentral.com.

thirtyfoot

Jaysus, I hope his finishing a season on a high will not be the NYC. There is a race on Santry in December that Irish athletics would prefer to see as his high. I appreciate the blurb may be a NYC press release and they'll big that up but I hope that Euro Cross will be his focus. I said in another thread that I find Fagan's race schedule strange and seemingly unplanned. If he was to target Euro Cross I don't think a marathon 6 weeks beforehand is the best prep. John Treacy would have had his best cross races on the back of some very sharp indoor work as far as I know but it may be different for others. If he wants to be beating Lebid or Farah he'll need to be very sharp. Also, with his penchant for running through the pain, his participation in NYC for me would leave a big question mark as to whether he will be on the line in Santry or if so at 100%. Sometimes he, like Cragg, leaves me exasperated because if he planned things a littlle better would have a better chance of winning some hardware.

Peckham

Is it a factor of being based in USA? Naturally your coaches are going to give a lot more focus to US and World races than they are to European Championships (which I'd image have little credibility).....or am I beng unfair?

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

Jaysus, I hope his finishing a season on a high will not be the NYC. There is a race on Santry in December that Irish athletics would prefer to see as his high. I appreciate the blurb may be a NYC press release and they'll big that up but I hope that Euro Cross will be his focus. I said in another thread that I find Fagan's race schedule strange and seemingly unplanned. If he was to target Euro Cross I don't think a marathon 6 weeks beforehand is the best prep. John Treacy would have had his best cross races on the back of some very sharp indoor work as far as I know but it may be different for others. If he wants to be beating Lebid or Farah he'll need to be very sharp. Also, with his penchant for running through the pain, his participation in NYC for me would leave a big question mark as to whether he will be on the line in Santry or if so at 100%. Sometimes he, like Cragg, leaves me exasperated because if he planned things a littlle better would have a better chance of winning some hardware.

Had a bit of a rant about this on a run yesterday myself with , most of which I wont post . If you look at the setup in the US now once your out of college all the meets etc are run by sponsors and your signed up to a sponsor and run for them. The pull of the money now seems to be a driving factor on the US circut . I'm not sure how much pull they have now but it's only going to get worse.

Euros are defo not his main aim now and I wouldnt be suprised if he doesnt run them at all at thsi point. Kind of makes me sick when you see someone like Keith Kelly who only wants to run for his country but can't (well maybe can't).

thirtyfoot

Peckham wrote: »

Is it a factor of being based in USA? Naturally your coaches are going to give a lot more focus to US and World races than they are to European Championships (which I'd image have little credibility).....or am I beng unfair?

Mary Cullen is based in the US and she is targeting Euro Cross. She'll be running Gerry Farnan too. Right now she is as big if not bigger than Fagan in the road/country scene. He didn't really focus on Berlin either on the face of it and that was a worlds. I suppose I'd be concerned that his main focus is the road race circuit instead of medals when he can be winning medals.

If its a case of his US coach exerting pressure to race in these races ahead of a Euro Cross then his coach is misguided in my opinion and our HP guys should be barrelling in there and sorting it out. Irish athletics #1 priority regarding Fagan is him lording it over Lebid and Farah in Santry in December.

Stupid_Private

At the end of the day he's a full time athlete who has to go where the money is. In 2009 he received €12,000 off the AAI carding scheme. He therefore has to race elsewhere to earn a living - I'd assume that running the GNR and the New York marathon will get him more than his grant. As nice as it would be to win hardware at the Europeans, this is his job, so why shouldn't he race where the money is?

ecoli

I think people may be reading slightly into the language of the article a bit too much "season" has a very different meaning to "year" as we saw last year Martin was coming into good form from European XC right into January last year

Clum

6 weeks is time enough to recover. Quite a few of the marathon runners from Beijing last year raced the Great North Run only about 6 weeks later. If he comes out of it injury free he'll be fine.

My concern is that he's not focused on cross country specific training. Last year he ran the Euros in XC and that was it. Lebid ran about 20 cross country races. Fagan will have the fitness and speed but I wonder will he be ready for the terrain. He fell in last year's race. I think he fell the year before that too.

Shame, because he's proven himself in cross country in the US collegiate circuit.

mrak

Clum wrote: »

6 weeks is time enough to recover. Quite a few of the marathon runners from Beijing last year raced the Great North Run only about 6 weeks later. If he comes out of it injury free he'll be fine.

My concern is that he's not focused on cross country specific training. Last year he ran the Euros in XC and that was it. Lebid ran about 20 cross country races. Fagan will have the fitness and speed but I wonder will he be ready for the terrain. He fell in last year's race. I think he fell the year before that too.

Shame, because he's proven himself in cross country in the US collegiate circuit.

I had heard several times that you can do your best 10k 4-6 weeks after a marathon so if he's healthy he'll be grand. I hope he is healthy as I can't see how you can limp off the track in santry a dejected figure at the national 10k and be in peak marathon training and racing halfs a little over a month later. He should have the best of advice so I guess he knows what he's doing.

shels4ever

mrak wrote: »

I had heard several times that you can do your best 10k 4-6 weeks after a marathon so if he's healthy he'll be grand. I hope he is healthy as I can't see how you can limp off the track in santry a dejected figure at the national 10k and be in peak marathon training and racing halfs a little over a month later. He should have the best of advice so I guess he knows what he's doing.

Yep maybe the injury wasnt as bad as he first though which is great,

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

Mary Cullen is based in the US and she is targeting Euro Cross. She'll be running Gerry Farnan too. Right now she is as big if not bigger than Fagan in the road/country scene. He didn't really focus on Berlin either on the face of it and that was a worlds. I suppose I'd be concerned that his main focus is the road race circuit instead of medals when he can be winning medals.

If its a case of his US coach exerting pressure to race in these races ahead of a Euro Cross then his coach is misguided in my opinion and our HP guys should be barrelling in there and sorting it out. Irish athletics #1 priority regarding Fagan is him lording it over Lebid and Farah in Santry in December.

He's a marathon runner. It's natural then that the New York Marathon would be a bigger priority than the European XC. A marathon runner will focus on marathons. The big city marathons have more status than the championships so running good in such a marathon is as big as it gets. While it would be nice to see him in the Euro XC, if he wants to be a good marathoner it's probabl best that he doesn't worry about it (he might run it but it shouldn't be his focus).

If Fagan wants to be a marathon runner, Irish athletics focus should be helping him be the best marathoner he can be. I don't think his coach is pushing himinto these race cos of their location, but rather cos of their distance and surface.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

Mary Cullen is based in the US and she is targeting Euro Cross. She'll be running Gerry Farnan too.

Mary Cullen is running the Gerry Farnan? Deadly

kennyb3

Very surprised to see Fagan back, his achilles has gone twice now, once in Beijing (aug 08) and now a year later. he left in a wheelchair and is back already and in full marathon training. very risky.

Peckham

Has Fagan left the McMillan Elite programme? Don't see his name listed as an athlete on their website?

ss43

Peckham wrote: »

Has Fagan left the McMillan Elite programme? Don't see his name listed as an athlete on their website?

Don't think he was ever part of it. He just trained with them. As far as I know it was down to sponsorship. McMillan Elite is sponsored by Adidas and as Fagan is sponsored by Reebok he couldn't oficially be McMillan elite. However, he was being coached by McMillan and trained with the McMillan Elite lads and I presume this is still happening.

Stupid_Private

Peckham wrote: »

Has Fagan left the McMillan Elite programme? Don't see his name listed as an athlete on their website?

He's never been part of the programme as it's only open to US nationals (or at least passport holders - there's a scottish lad in there). He is coached by Greg McMillan and trains with the athletes there. He doesn't receive the cheap housing, adidas gear etc that the McMillan elite team get. They used to include bits about him on the site but I think they now want to focus just on the athletes that are part of the system, rather than other athletes that are trained by Greg McMillan.

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

At the end of the day he's a full time athlete who has to go where the money is. In 2009 he received €12,000 off the AAI carding scheme. He therefore has to race elsewhere to earn a living - I'd assume that running the GNR and the New York marathon will get him more than his grant. As nice as it would be to win hardware at the Europeans, this is his job, so why shouldn't he race where the money is?

Very true but in some ways its like a professional footballer who retires at international football so he can concentrate on his club career as they are the guys who pay the salary. Also bear in mind that although he did 'only' get €12k from AAI Carding Scheme that too still carries an element of responsibility or duty. He has a duty to the organisers of the Great Run series and must run a certain number of races to get his pay day so why not have a certain duty to the AAI. Thats the problem with the AAI Carding Scheme, its not really a contract, they should have it you must compete in certain races or else no ching ching.

All this is probably unfair as we may not know the full truth or reasonings and are second guessing but as someone pointed out the Euro Cross does not seem to be a priority and if so that is a disappointment. No matter what anyone can say, running a fast time in a big city marathon will never compare to a championship medal in my eye. I'm sure if you ask John Treacy he'd agree.

If it is the case that Euro Cross is not his #1 target, then that is a disappointed as he can win it as he is a world class athlete. Looking at it, it may be easier to focus on a big city marathon in a far away city where lots of africans will run very fast than focus on a big race in your home country where you could be favourite to take a championship gold. Who knows.

Peckham

Tingle wrote: »

No matter what anyone can say, running a fast time in a big city marathon will never compare to a championship medal in my eye. I'm sure if you ask John Treacy he'd agree.

But if your heart is set on marathoning, then winning a big city marathon trumps a Euro XC medal.

shels4ever

Peckham wrote: »

But if your heart is set on marathoning, then winning a big city marathon trumps a Euro XC medal.

Winning a big city marathon is next to impossible for him, but an irish record could be a major driving factor , with the half marathon record in the bag the full could be on the cards.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

No matter what anyone can say, running a fast time in a big city marathon will never compare to a championship medal in my eye. I'm sure if you ask John Treacy he'd agree.

If it is the case that Euro Cross is not his #1 target, then that is a disappointed as he can win it as he is a world class athlete. Looking at it, it may be easier to focus on a big city marathon in a far away city where lots of africans will run very fast than focus on a big race in your home country where you could be favourite to take a championship gold. Who knows.

I know this has all come up before but the way I would view it would be which do you remember more , 1. The winner of the Dublin Marathon in 1980 .2. The World Cross Champ from 1979?

Stupid_Private

shels4ever wrote: »

I know this has all come up before but the way I would view it would be which do you remember more , 1. The winner of the Dublin Marathon in 1980 .2. The World Cross Champ from 1979?

The Dublin marathon wasn't big in 1980. It's not even big now compared to the likes of London or New York. If an Irish man (or woman) was to win one of the major city marathons I'd guess it'll be remembered.

shels4ever

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The Dublin marathon wasn't big in 1980. It's not even big now compared to the likes of London or New York. If an Irish man (or woman) was to win one of the major city marathons I'd guess it'll be remembered.

Yes thats a good point too , Would love to see it happening but chances are slim. Guess it comes down to personal views really. I was always more into XC and Track then marathons so for me id rather a medal at the euros then winning a marathon. Not actually having a pop at Fagan as i think he's class . Just nice to see someone in an irish top winning a title , It's what made me run in the first place. Grew up on o'mara , o'sullivan etc.
I can only think of one major marathon that an irish man has won.(change that too 3 forgot about catriona in berlin and tracy in LA(not olympics)

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The Dublin marathon wasn't big in 1980. It's not even big now compared to the likes of London or New York. If an Irish man (or woman) was to win one of the major city marathons I'd guess it'll be remembered.

Catriona won Berlin and London but for me it'll be her silver in the snow in Boston in '92 versus Lynn Jennings as my abiding memory of her. Its all about medals for me.

We may be reading too much into quotes about Fagan, here is Ann Keenan Buckley in todays indo and it sounds more positive to Euro Cross.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics-fagan-looking-to-make-up-for-lost-time-on-tyneside-1890267.html

"Martin has given me his commitment to running in the Europeans, so hopefully he will come through these next few races OK and he seems confident of his form," said Keenan-Buckley, whose preparations for the Euro cross-country event started in earnest with a team training session in Santry last weekend

thirtyfoot

Peckham wrote: »

But if your heart is set on marathoning, then winning a big city marathon trumps a Euro XC medal.

In front of your own crowd...........thats the difference here. You'd be mad to miss this once in a lifetime opportunity.

cfitz

If the guy wants to be a marathoner then that should be his focus. I'd love if he ran the cross-country and did well but so what. There is a significant difference between 12k XC and 26.2 miles on the road. The idea is to strive to reach your goals, not to pick your events based on which one has easier medals. The beauty is in the challenge surely...

Hard Worker

6 weeks is plenty of time to recover from New York and run well in the Euro XC.
I can only guess that Martin would receive an amount of twice his annual grant just for toeing the line in New York. He would also have potential prize money and time bonuses and sponsor bonuses. He would be mad to turn his nose up at that.

Kiptanui

To claim Martin Fagan choosing to prioitise the NewYork marathon as opposed to the Euro XC is akin to an international footballer choosing not to play for his country is absolute nonsense. They earn enough in a month (some in a week)to finance their year. Athletics is a totally different situation.
Fagan got 12K from the sports council. The dole is about 9k per year so that effectively is what he has been given. That would not fund him for too long. He is a full time athlete; he needs to earn money and he does that through running. It would be wonderful to see Fagan take a medal in the europeans; it would be much better to see him take a medal in Barcelona next summer in his chosen event.

Fagan lost a considerable amount of money at our national championships this year and aggravated an injury racing a guy who only his clubmtes (and not all of them) deemed it appropriate that he should be in the race. Some of the people who defended Boit's inclusion in that race are now criticising Fagan's racing schedule. If he's chasing dollars its becausehe needs to.
Best of luck to Fagan, I hope he breaks the Irish record in NY.

Hard Worker

Kiptanui wrote: »

To claim Martin Fagan choosing to prioitise the NewYork marathon as opposed to the Euro XC is akin to an international footballer choosing not to play for his country is absolute nonsense. They earn enough in a month (some in a week)to finance their year. Athletics is a totally different situation.
Fagan got 12K from the sports council. The dole is about 9k per year so that effectively is what he has been given. That would not fund him for too long. He is a full time athlete; he needs to earn money and he does that through running. It would be wonderful to see Fagan take a medal in the europeans; it would be much better to see him take a medal in Barcelona next summer in his chosen event.

Fagan lost a considerable amount of money at our national championships this year and aggravated an injury racing a guy who only his clubmtes (and not all of them) deemed it appropriate that he should be in the race. Some of the people who defended Boit's inclusion in that race are now criticising Fagan's racing schedule. If he's chasing dollars its becausehe needs to.
Best of luck to Fagan, I hope he breaks the Irish record in NY.

I agree fully with your first paragraph. However, your second one doesn't make sense to me. He aggravated an injury running the 10000. The aggravation had nothing to do with whether Boit was in the race or not. Unless you're saying Fagan shouldn't have had to race as hard as he did and should have been allowed to run easy for his gold medal. Why else would you even mention Boit?

Kiptanui

Hard Worker wrote: »

I agree fully with your first paragraph. However, your second one doesn't make sense to me. He aggravated an injury running the 10000. The aggravation had nothing to do with whether Boit was in the race or not. Unless you're saying Fagan shouldn't have had to race as hard as he did and should have been allowed to run easy for his gold medal. Why else would you even mention Boit?

Yes he could have cruised around and picked up his cheque if Boit wasn't in the race. I would have no complaints if it were Mark Kenneally in that Clonliffe singlet that day by the way. I have nothing against the club and admired them since the days of DaveTaylor. I am not claiming that people should roll over and allow him have a national title at his leisure either. But the fact is it would have eased his financial worries and he may have had a different approach to the Europeans. Perhaps not, its idle speculation.

By the way I can't wait for the europeans and its nearly time to get a thread going about it.

thirtyfoot

Kiptanui wrote: »

Fagan lost a considerable amount of money at our national championships this year and aggravated an injury racing a guy who only his clubmtes (and not all of them) deemed it appropriate that he should be in the race. Some of the people who defended Boit's inclusion in that race are now criticising Fagan's racing schedule.

I go bananas here when athletes and coaches are criticised without people knowing the facts so it may seem that I am being hypocritical so to clarify, I'm coming at this from the angle that I would love to see Fagan win gold in Santry next December. When I read stuff that says he is hoping to finish his season on a high at NY and that he is racing a marathon 6 weeks before this race it seems to be that its not his #1 priority. I now think that I am reading too much into those blurbs as they are from Great Run or NY Marathon PR so will be geared towards them. I read the Irish Indo piece and from that you can maybe take it that he is focusing on the Euros. So, I'll reserve my 'criticism' in future and not base it on what I read in the press/net but I still still think its a good debate and has good points. The other point was that I thought that you couldn't run a marathon and be fresh and ready to go 6 weeks later. Some have said you can and they know more about the discipline than me so that's fair enough and again having a debate like this can clarify things like that. I am looking at it and exasperated at what I perceive to be a strange racing schedules but from here I can see that maybe it does make sense and also got an appreciation of what money he may be earning from these races. My opinion that winning a championship gold is bigger than a fast road race still stands though.

I'm note sure what connection or irony there is in wondering about Fagan's race schedule and defending Boit running in Nationals, thats a mad one and I'm not sure where you are coming from on that on apart from trying to re-ignite the Boit debate (which is fair enough and you can plough away on that one but it has nothing to do with this). If Fagan doesn't medal in Santry is that Boit and Clonliffe's fault, is that what you are saying?:)

Kiptanui

Tingle wrote: »

I go bananas here when athletes and coaches are criticised without people knowing the facts so it may seem that I am being hypocritical so to clarify, I'm coming at this from the angle that I would love to see Fagan win gold in Santry next December. When I read stuff that says he is hoping to finish his season on a high at NY and that he is racing a marathon 6 weeks before this race it seems to be that its not his #1 priority. I now think that I am reading too much into those blurbs as they are from Great Run or NY Marathon PR so will be geared towards them. I read the Irish Indo piece and from that you can maybe take it that he is focusing on the Euros. So, I'll reserve my 'criticism' in future and not base it on what I read in the press/net but I still still think its a good debate and has good points. The other point was that I thought that you couldn't run a marathon and be fresh and ready to go 6 weeks later. Some have said you can and they know more about the discipline than me so that's fair enough and again having a debate like this can clarify things like that. I am looking at it and exasperated at what I perceive to be a strange racing schedules but from here I can see that maybe it does make sense and also got an appreciation of what money he may be earning from these races. My opinion that winning a championship gold is bigger than a fast road race still stands though.

I'm note sure what connection or irony there is in wondering about Fagan's race schedule and defending Boit running in Nationals, thats a mad one and I'm not sure where you are coming from on that on apart from trying to re-ignite the Boit debate (which is fair enough and you can plough away on that one but it has nothing to do with this). If Fagan doesn't medal in Santry is that Boit and Clonliffe's fault, is that what you are saying?:)

I too would dearly love to see Fagan or indeed any Irish person medal in the Euro Cross. But it appears sometimes that his racing schedule is dictated by the need to earn money.

The connection with Boit is that Fagan missed out on substantial (for him) cash when the Kenyan won the National 10000m. This may have influanced his decision on where his focus lies for the winter, purely from a monetary perspective. It annoys me when I see Irish athletes swimming against the tide not being protected from this type of thing. Don't bother with the crap about how his presence raises the bar either, a fully fit Fagan would destroy Boit over 10K.

Lets be clear Tingle, I don't care about Boit. He won't compete for Ireland and even if he did, I would derive as much pleasure from him taking a medal in someting like the Euro's as I would in seeing Lorna Kiplagat win the ladies. Its nothing personal against the guy, by all accounts he's a nice guy who's actions are also based on a real need for cash. I'd much rather see someone like Mark Kenneally do it because he is a guy who grew up in Celbridge that young athletes could identify with.

TheRoomWrecker

Im a huge fan as we all are of Fagan, and like everyone I want him fully fit leading the irish team to something special in the euro xc :cool: (fingers crossed) but I can see the fact that the NYC marathon is a huge goal for him, as the fact that this time last year he couldnt and didnt get invited to one of the "big city marathon" as his profile and pbs didnt appeal to the organisers. His profile in the US is strong now, and the fact that his stock is rising means he has to cash in on this ass its his job. Im sure Reebok are looking after him pretty well these days too as he is one of there top long distance guys.

Kiptanui wrote: »

a fully fit Fagan would destroy Boit over 10k

also Kiptanui to say fagan would destroy boit over 10k is a bit of an overstatement:rolleyes:, a full fit Boit has ran 27.40.64 for 10k on track over 17seconds quicker than Fagans PB

thirtyfoot

Kiptanui wrote: »

The connection with Boit is that Fagan missed out on substantial (for him) cash when the Kenyan won the National 10000m. This may have influanced his decision on where his focus lies for the winter, purely from a monetary perspective. It annoys me when I see Irish athletes swimming against the tide not being protected from this type of thing. Don't bother with the crap about how his presence raises the bar either, a fully fit Fagan would destroy Boit over 10K.

Boit has a 27:40 over 10000 from last year. A fully firing Boit probably wouldn't be hammered by Fagan who has a 27:5? even if he wasn't fully fit when he ran it. Fagan probably would beat him and I'd like to see he but to say he would hammer a 27:40 man?????

I don't buy your argument that Fagan should have been expected to just turn up and pick up his sponsors checqu. This has nothing to do with the Nationals and is a deal he has with his sponsors. Boit has as much right to run in Nationals as you or me. He is a registered member of an AAI club. Same as Julian Kupler of Rathfarnham or Alex Avron of Crusaders or the throwers from KCH, GCH or Clonliffe. Not Irish but fully allowed compete. Thems are the rules so just get on with it and stop complaining. I find that argument petty and small minded to be honest. If the rules change then thats fair enough.

Kiptanui wrote: »

Lets be clear Tingle, I don't care about Boit. He won't compete for Ireland and even if he did, I would derive as much pleasure from him taking a medal in someting like the Euro's as I would in seeing Lorna Kiplagat win the ladies. Its nothing personal against the guy, by all accounts he's a nice guy who's actions are also based on a real need for cash. I'd much rather see someone like Mark Kenneally do it because he is a guy who grew up in Celbridge that young athletes could identify with.

Why can't young kids identify and get excited about a Kenyan training and competing in Ireland. I think its pretty cool. If there was a handy Jamaican doing the sprint races and competing for Bros Pearse I'd be excited about it and fancy testing myself and learning something off him. Depends on your outlook on things. The more athletes and higher quality athletes we have competing the better.

I was faced with a similar dilemna. I've never won a senior Nationals. Past season, there were 3 guys in my way. One a plastic paddy (its ok as I call it to his face and he enjoys it), a french guy and an Irish guy. Someone asked me how would I feel if the plastic or the frenchie deprived me of a gold or medal of any colour, I felt grand and thems are the rules and if it means I have to beat them to do it, so be it. Just get on with it and stop moaning is my opinion on it, there are bigger things to be really stressed about and be fixed, poor standard of domestic competition being one of them.

thirtyfoot

Kiptanui wrote: »

. I'd much rather see someone like Mark Kenneally do it because he is a guy who grew up in Celbridge that young athletes could identify with.

Sorry, just got an image in my head of Mark Kenneally doing a few laps in the woods in Castletown House with hundreds of Celbridge kids running after him like he is a pied piper style Geb type in downtown Addis Ababa:D

(the kids would be more likely to be sniffing glue down by the river:rolleyes:)

Stupid_Private

Personally I don't agree with Boit being allowed to compete in Nationals regardless of what club he is registered for. Unfortunately there's a loop hole there that allows foreign athletes to compete, and once it's there it can and will be exploited. There's nothing there to stop a club signing up 6 foreigners to compete in the Inter Counties just to prove how ridiculous a rule it is. It can't be that hard to tighten it up - competitiors must be either an Irish national, an Irish passport holder or domiciled in Ireland for longer than 6 consecutive months.

I don't know the 2 athletes you mentioned in your post Tingle, but if they only fly into the country the week of a national championships then I'd equally be against them being allowed to compete.

Anyway - hopefully this time tomorrow we'll be talking about a successful run by Fagan in the GNR rather than this.

ecoli

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I don't know the 2 athletes you mentioned in your post Tingle, but if they only fly into the country the week of a national championships then I'd equally be against them being allowed to compete.

QUOTE]

Boit ran Morton Mile and 5 mile in the park (Adidas Series if i recall correctly)earlier in the summer. I feel that these are the type of people we need to get into these kind of races. If our top Athletes are not running week in week out around Ireland there reasons are usually the fact that they lack high class competition. Now we are starting to get some decent runners and people are moaning about it. We need to be encouraging these strides being made by promoters

Stupid_Private

ecoli wrote: »

Boit ran Morton Mile and 5 mile in the park (Adidas Series if i recall correctly)earlier in the summer. I feel that these are the type of people we need to get into these kind of races. If our top Athletes are not running week in week out around Ireland there reasons are usually the fact that they lack high class competition. Now we are starting to get some decent runners and people are moaning about it. We need to be encouraging these strides being made by promoters

I've no issue what so ever with top class athletes coming over and taking part in races around the country, raising the bar etc. Infact I'd welcome that. My point is that athletes competing in the National Championships should have more of a connection to the country than simply being signed up for a club.

myflipflops

Kiptanui wrote: »

I too would dearly love to see Fagan or indeed any Irish person medal in the Euro Cross. But it appears sometimes that his racing schedule is dictated by the need to earn money.

I think his racing schedule is dictated by getting the most out of his potential. He said himself moved up distances and onto the roads because he reckoned he'd be hammering out 13.30 ish and 27.50ish times on the track all the time but didn't feel he could go much quicker. As such, he moved his focus onto road races with a specific goal of excelling in the marathon. Smart move athletics wise and a smart move financially to boot.


I reckon we'll see Fagan run in Santry barring injuries but we'll be seeing a marathon guy running over 10k against 13.05 5k people like Farah and the Euro X freak that is Lebed. He's a big underdog against those guys under any circumstances.

Personally i think the Boit arguement has no relevance here**. I see the point Kiptanui is making about the money Fagan missed out on but he would have been gunning for New York no matter what happened. Himself and his coach are simply smart enough to focus on where his strengths clearly lie.

** By here, i mean in this debate over Fagan. I think it's a relevant debate generally as to whether someone like Boit should be allowed to compete. Personally, i say why the hell not but certainly see the other side of the arguement.

Kiptanui

Tingle wrote: »

Boit has a 27:40 over 10000 from last year. A fully firing Boit probably wouldn't be hammered by Fagan who has a 27:5? even if he wasn't fully fit when he ran it. Fagan probably would beat him and I'd like to see he but to say he would hammer a 27:40 man?????

I don't buy your argument that Fagan should have been expected to just turn up and pick up his sponsors checqu. This has nothing to do with the Nationals and is a deal he has with his sponsors. Boit has as much right to run in Nationals as you or me. He is a registered member of an AAI club. Same as Julian Kupler of Rathfarnham or Alex Avron of Crusaders or the throwers from KCH, GCH or Clonliffe. Not Irish but fully allowed compete. Thems are the rules so just get on with it and stop complaining. I find that argument petty and small minded to be honest. If the rules change then thats fair enough.

Tingle it would be great if you actually read all the points I make. I specifically stated that I didn't expect people to roll over and let guys like Fagan have a soft nationals. :rolleyes: What part of that statement do you not understand??!!

Fair enough I stand corrected on Boits 10K time.

Fagan can test himself against world class athletes any time he likes. He has ample opportunity to race them. That arguement of testing himself is redundant in his case.
I am all for Boit and his likes to run in road races and indeed it does raise the standard of domestic races. I don't believe he should be allowed compete in the Nationals though and I hope my county board will forward a motion proposing this measure.
Young people can identify with a guy who ran as a juvenile in Ireland and came through the club system much more easily than a guy from the rift valley who couldn't point out Ireland on the map of the World when he was 20 years of age. Under current rules he can run the Nationals and I accept that. I do believe that to be wrong though; and just because I don't agree with you on this point you claim I am narrow minded? Get a grip man and get off your high horse! The majority would agree with me, as they did that Saturday in Santry.

thirtyfoot

Kiptanui wrote: »

Tingle it would be great if you actually read all the points I make. I specifically stated that I didn't expect people to roll over and let guys like Fagan have a soft nationals. :rolleyes: What part of that statement do you not understand??!!

.

Apologies for that, the altitude here on my high horse has gone to my head, I appreciate what you are saying now but the point of the Boit issue having no part in this debate still stands, in my opinion.

Kiptanui wrote: »

Fagan can test himself against world class athletes any time he likes. He has ample opportunity to race them. That arguement of testing himself is redundant in his case.
.

Nobody is arguing that, are they?

Kiptanui wrote: »

Young people can identify with a guy who ran as a juvenile in Ireland and came through the club system much more easily than a guy from the rift valley who couldn't point out Ireland on the map of the World when he was 20 years of age. Under current rules he can run the Nationals and I accept that. I do believe that to be wrong though; and just because I don't agree with you on this point you claim I am narrow minded? Get a grip man and get off your high horse! The majority would agree with me, as they did that Saturday in Santry.

I'm only having a bit of craic re Kenneally etc and yes its great to see Irish guys coming through but kids could also learn alot from overseas athletes and they usually do when they are on trips away. Same will apply here if there is an overseas athlete in Ireland.

You hit the nail on the head, under current rules he can run. If all those people in Santry on saturday feel strongly about it they should go through theor clubs, county boards and congress and try get the rule change. If its changed then I'll follow that. Doesn't bother me too much but I like to have the best competition to watch or even compete against. If people have issues they shouldn't have issues with Boit or even Clonliffe. Take the issues to the AAI through the routes available.

My point on the small minded is that when people start cribbing about people who may have beaten them and spouting technicalities and saying its not really fair for whatever reason, thats small minded in my opinion. Just forget about it and try get faster and beat them the next time. In my opinion and it is only my opinion, anyone who doesn't wish the best athletes possible in their events is small minded in an athletics perspective. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it. No high horse (but then again there are no rules here about being on a high horse;)). I mentioned my own case in case you thougth I was spouting sh*te and had no experience of this. This has gone well off topic and run its course for me. I'll approach my questions on athletes race priorities more carefully in future.

Lets hope Fagan has a cracker tomorrow.

Ondieki

Amazed to see some of the comments here from regulars on the forum about this topic. I venture to say no one here actually knows martin (save for one exception..you know who u are) yet a lot of people seem shure to know what he should and should not be doing or what his intentions for the rest of the season are all based on a one liner in an interview.

First things first, nothing would please the guy more than to win a medal in the euro cross in Dublin...FACT! and no one will be trying as hard on thae day to make that happen than Fagan...Can he do it after a new york marathon...i say he can as it happens barring injury...

Now should he run a NewYork marathon 6 weeks before hand...well plain and simple Martins a professional athlete living on a pittance who has 5 or 6 years to make a living and a name for himself in the sport. So if New York wants him this year then hell yes he should be running in it. 12 grand a year plus sponsors bonuses arent much when you consider what it takes to perform at the level he does. We're talking here about a guy who was born to run marathon and half marathons and who has the balls to go strait for it out of college, hes got the ability to be a world class marathoner and what better place to do it than New York.

Martins aim is to be able to not just compete but win a big city marathon...in my book such a feat would far outweigh a win in the euro cross..i know some people wont agree with that but in terms of quality of oppostion there is no comparisson. Hes got the guts to go out there and believe he can race the top africans as he did when taking on Haile etc and leadin the for over 10k in the Hague so fair play to him and heres hopping he can have a stormer in NY.

Lest anyone doubt his willingness to run for ireland at the europeans by the way you might remember he got refused entry to the states and almost missed his shot at the olympics because he came home to run the euro's two years ago. Anyone who saw in his face or heard the dissappoinment he had when falling this year would see what it meant to him.

On a side note its sad to see that on a consistent basis irish athletics fans on this forum criticise or question at least the motives of our top athletes rather than support them and wish them well. As one who will be standing in central park cheering on in the NY marathon and who'll be standing in santry in December it saddens me to read some of the stuff written here today and on other topics here of late.


Finally on the Boit note: Nothing against the guy either and if hes elligble to run then fair play but i have no shame in saying we should champion far more the likes of Fagan who ran through every level or our system from BLOE to Schools to community games etc. and came out a world class runner on the other side...

thirtyfoot

Ondieki wrote: »

Amazed to see some of the comments here from regulars on the forum about this topic. I venture to say no one here actually knows martin (save for one exception..you know who u are) yet a lot of people seem shure to know what he should and should not be doing or what his intentions for the rest of the season are all based on a one liner in an interview.

First things first, nothing would please the guy more than to win a medal in the euro cross in Dublin...FACT! and no one will be trying as hard on thae day to make that happen than Fagan...Can he do it after a new york marathon...i say he can as it happens barring injury...

Now should he run a NewYork marathon 6 weeks before hand...well plain and simple Martins a professional athlete living on a pittance who has 5 or 6 years to make a living and a name for himself in the sport. So if New York wants him this year then hell yes he should be running in it. 12 grand a year plus sponsors bonuses arent much when you consider what it takes to perform at the level he does. We're talking here about a guy who was born to run marathon and half marathons and who has the balls to go strait for it out of college, hes got the ability to be a world class marathoner and what better place to do it than New York.

Martins aim is to be able to not just compete but win a big city marathon...in my book such a feat would far outweigh a win in the euro cross..i know some people wont agree with that but in terms of quality of oppostion there is no comparisson. Hes got the guts to go out there and believe he can race the top africans as he did when taking on Haile etc and leadin the for over 10k in the Hague so fair play to him and heres hopping he can have a stormer in NY.

Lest anyone doubt his willingness to run for ireland at the europeans by the way you might remember he got refused entry to the states and almost missed his shot at the olympics because he came home to run the euro's two years ago. Anyone who saw in his face or heard the dissappoinment he had when falling this year would see what it meant to him.

On a side note its sad to see that on a consistent basis irish athletics fans on this forum criticise or question at least the motives of our top athletes rather than support them and wish them well. As one who will be standing in central park cheering on in the NY marathon and who'll be standing in santry in December it saddens me to read some of the stuff written here today and on other topics here of late.


Finally on the Boit note: Nothing against the guy either and if hes elligble to run then fair play but i have no shame in saying we should champion far more the likes of Fagan who ran through every level or our system from BLOE to Schools to community games etc. and came out a world class runner on the other side...

I had in my head to not add anymore as its gone so off topic but sure for the craic we might as well keep it going. I agree with much of what you say and yes it did all kickoff based on a one liner in the interview. But I think you are over reacting about comments etc being made by regulars. My initial question was about his race priorities. I based that on the linked article that had said he hoped to finish his season on a high at NY. Fair enough to question whether he was competing in Santry on the back of that, no? Then subsequent discussions centred around whether an athlete should focus on big marathons or champs, medals or money. This depends on your opinion and was discussed very sensibly. There was also a discussion on whether 6 weeks was ok for recovery, the experts believed it was. Fair enough. All civilised and a good debate I think. Boit was brought in, grand, I felt it wasn't relevant but love a good barney so will discuss. Kiptanui seems to think that I think Boit will be more a role model than an Irish based athlete which is crazy, all I'm saying is that having him here will have a positive effect on our sport. I'm not suggesting we go and recruit Africans to fill our teams and we definetly don't champion him here over Irish athletes. We then had a discussion about wanting to race and having better athletes in races in general, good discussion again I thought even if Kiptanui felt I was on a high horse but usually one party will think that when opinions differ. I admitted I jumped the gun in a couple of posts and read too much into the original article and pointed out the Indo comments where Ann Keenan-Buckley says Fagan has confirmed he will run. I also admitted I was a bit hypocritical is questioning his racing plans based on an article without knowing the full facts as its something that wrecks my head (questioning athletes and coaches without knowing the facts).

If you think that there is a negative element on this forum regarding our elite athletes then you are in my opinion very wrong. This place is very positive by the vast majority. I will not let than one go as I think this forum is great especially regarding the support we give to the athletes. In fact I was accused in the past of being a hype merchant as were others here. If you want knocking and negative you should head over to letsrun.com. This place is sweetness and light.

Nobody here is saying Fagan won't win. Nobody is saying he is sh*te. Everyone agrees he is world class. I hope he runs a blinder tomorrow, runs a great NY and medals in Santry. The debate was around what we hoped his targets were for the year ahead and an initial fear that Euro Cross was not a target. If we didn't care and weren't interested we wouldn't discuss. But it is a discussion forum after all and most threads here are light hearted. Yes, there are some agendas and people pushing things but by and large the discussion is based on what people would say face to face if we all got together. In the main, people don't hide behind their usernames and post nasty stuff. We can't win, accused by some of being too positive while amazing others with our negativity. Nowhere left to go. We might as well get our coats and shut her down, Ondieki, switch the lights out on your way out:D

If you are saddened by what you read, its simple, stop reading. We'll continue to keep it positive (in our eyes anyway).

On a happy note, you say he would love to medal in Santry. Thats great and what we all want to hear.

myflipflops

Good post.

Ondieki wrote: »

Martins aim is to be able to not just compete but win a big city marathon...in my book such a feat would far outweigh a win in the euro cross

I agree and I don't even think he has to win it. If he broke the national record, it would be a far greater achievement than Euro Cross medal.

Ondieki wrote: »

On a side note its sad to see that on a consistent basis irish athletics fans on this forum criticise or question at least the motives of our top athletes rather than support them and wish them well.

I don't think this is true. I post here regularly and I don't think people criticise Irish athletes that much. It's natural that there will be some but all in all, I think it's a fair forum. I cerainly avoid writing anything on here that I wouldn't say to a persons face.

gerire

He got a good cheer there when being introduced to the crowd, one of about 6 elites introduced out, in Newcastle

myflipflops

Getting stuck in with the lead group as usual. Fagan will never die wondering what could have been!! Great to see.

Peckham

Did he finish, or did I miss him crossing the line?

mrak

doesn't look good .. no sign of him in the results.

http://www.greatrun.org/Results/Default.aspx

Kiptanui

DNF. I wonder if it was injury related or due to missed time. NY may be in doubt now?

robinph

I thought that Foster mentioned him as just coming up to the finish, didn't hear anything about a DNF but then I wasn't really paying attention.