NAMA - are you marching on Saturday?

onekeano

I am and here's my initial list of reasons.................

- If NAMA is so transparent how come they won't disclose what properties they are buying or who the developer is that is involved?
- If NAMA is so independent how come the NAMA executive are restrained from commenting on decisions about property portfolios they will be purchasing?
- If NAMA is so independent how come Brian Lenihan reserves the right to tell NAMA to reconsider offers on particular sites, take a site bought in Ballsbridge for say €400 million and NAMA offer €200 million. Then Mr Lenihan can tell NAMA to reconsider the offer made to a man who is a close friend of the Taoiseach who first appointed Mr Lenihan a minister - can this be right?
- Apart from the obvious madness of paying more than something is worth, it is quite clear the whole process is open to interference and collaboration between Fianna Fail and the developers.
- Unemployment has rocketed, huge amount of people have taken significant pay cuts and against that background the government wants to introduce a bail out that can only work if house prices increase!!!

Given all of the above, is it any wonder that shares prices in the major banks have already risen by around 2000% since the NAMA scheme was announced? It hardly augurs well for the taxpayer....

For all the reasons set out above I willl be supporting the March on Saturday @ 1pm from the Garden of Rememberance and would encourage others to do likewise.

Roy

granite man

Me and the missus will be there too. Its time the people's voice is heard.

Everyone needs to get out. And get their friends and family out too.

This could be the most important decision for this country that is made in our lifetimes, and that's saying a lot because I'm only 24...

People need to be informed where their money is going, because the vast majority don't have a clue. I don't blame them, because people have their own problems which need immediate attention right now. But signing off this much money to private investors, and getting NOTHING in return sets a frighteningly dangerous precedent in this country.


We are being robbed. Institutionalized robbery is still robbery.


If you stole food to feed your family you'd be arrested. Steal 65+ billion and you'll get 24+% of the vote.

Liam Byrne

Any protest marches elsewhere around the country ? If there's one in the mid-west, count me in!

Dannyboy83

They burned down city hall in Cork during the last revolution, anybody willing to chip in a few yoyos to cover the carbon tax on a gallon of petrol?

Inquitus

March if you like, but NAMA is a necessary evil for what has gone before. We could nationalise the banks, but that would feck things up more.

Much as I am loath to bail out the people who have brought about our dire circumstance, there is no alternative, this is the least painful option for us as a nation in the long run........and yes that it has come to this, and that this, is our best option is a terrible endightment of our current circumstance.

Inquitus

Inquitus wrote: »

March if you like, but NAMA is a necessary evil for what has gone before. We could nationalise the banks, but that would feck things up more.

Much as I am loath to bail out the people who have brought about our dire circumstance, there is no alternative, this is the least painful option for us as a nation in the long run........and yes that it has come to this, and that this, is our best option is a terrible endightment of our current circumstance.

Care to explain why exactly it's the least painful option?

I can only assume it benefits you in some way as if you were an ordinary taxpayer that had read up on NAMA, and the alternatives offered, you would see that it's by far the MOST painful option by far.

Inquitus

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Care to explain why exactly it's the least painful option?

I can only assume it benefits you in some way as if you were an ordinary taxpayer that had read up on NAMA, and the alternatives offered, you would see that it's by far the MOST painful option by far.

I am a PAYE worker with a house and 2 kids, I have been blighted by almost every Tax increase to date.......guess I am just educated enough to know that despite how **** this is its the best option......

Inquitus

Inquitus wrote: »

I am a PAYE worker with a house and 2 kids, I have been blighted by almost every Tax increase to date.......guess I am just educated enough to know that despite how **** this is its the best option......

Care to explain why it is the best option though?

If you'd be so kind, seeing as your education is obviously superior to mine.

merlynthewizard

Inquitus wrote: »

I am a PAYE worker with a house and 2 kids, I have been blighted by almost every Tax increase to date.......guess I am just educated enough to know that despite how **** this is its the best option......

If that's the case would you agree with a revaluation? Would you agree in more transparency?Would you agree that members of FF etc should be prosecuted for taking the Michael...no pensions,the lot.

sherdydan

it makes me angry the way people keep giving out about NAMA, it is an absoloute NECCESSITY to the future economic development of this country, without NAMA things will be ALOT worse.

Fair enough labour have a plan that i feel would be quite feasible, but not as great as NAMA. it seems a more ethically correct plan (i.e we arent giving money to the b*****s who got us in this mess) but just not as effective as NAMA

then there is fine gael.... who have NO plan, all they do is whinge and moan.

sherdydan

sherdydan wrote: »

it makes me angry the way people keep giving out about NAMA, it is an absoloute NECCESSITY to the future economic development of this country, without NAMA things will be ALOT worse.

Fair enough labour have a plan that i feel would be quite feasible, but not as great as NAMA. it seems a more ethically correct plan (i.e we arent giving money to the b*****s who got us in this mess) but just not as effective as NAMA

then there is fine gael.... who have NO plan, all they do is whinge and moan.

Can you explain exactly *why* NAMA in it's current state is the best plan?


Seriously, can any of you pro-NAMA people actually answer that question?

sherdydan

im not saying it is the DEFINITIVE best plan there is, but that its the best one that has been brought to the table so far. i feel its the best option because of two points:

1)there is a possibility of actually MAKING money for the exchequer with this plan

2)its all quite low risk as the properties are all spread between seperate markets, therefore minimising risk.

now dont get me wrong i do realise that this is all dependant on all properties being bought for realistic figures, and to be honest i would be quite confident that it will be done as such

SkepticOne

sherdydan wrote: »

im not saying it is the DEFINITIVE best plan there is, but that its the best one that has been brought to the table so far. i feel its the best option because of two points:

1)there is a possibility of actually MAKING money for the exchequer with this plan

2)its all quite low risk as the properties are all spread between seperate markets, therefore minimising risk.

now dont get me wrong i do realise that this is all dependant on all properties being bought for realistic figures, and to be honest i would be quite confident that it will be done as such

I think you have to ask your self why, if it is indeed has such low risk profit making opportunities is the tax payer being forced into it? Nobody is putting their own money behind it voluntarily.

What do you make of the fact that the share prices of banks jumped up by over 25 percent on the news today on the amount the taxpayer is overpaying for these loans?

sherdydan

sherdydan wrote: »

im not saying it is the DEFINITIVE best plan there is, but that its the best one that has been brought to the table so far. i feel its the best option because of two points:

1)there is a possibility of actually MAKING money for the exchequer with this plan

2)its all quite low risk as the properties are all spread between seperate markets, therefore minimising risk.

now dont get me wrong i do realise that this is all dependant on all properties being bought for realistic figures, and to be honest i would be quite confident that it will be done as such

And how are they going to make money might I ask? And don't say that the property prices will rise. They wont go anywhere near where they were for decades and decades.

It's all high risk. If it the property and loans weren't so high risk then we would be given some details about them. You can guarantee that a lot of it is worth close to zero in real terms. I.e., nobody will EVER want to buy it.

sherdydan

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think you have to ask your self why, if it is indeed has such low risk profit making opportunities is the tax payer being forced into it? Nobody is putting their own money behind it voluntarily.

do you mind me asking how in christs name people are going to put there money behind NAMA voluntarily, its taxation, THE GOVERNMENT IS IN CHARGE OF IT!

aftermn

One death is a tragedy, one million, a statistic.
Nama is supposed to be about ensuring the survival of banking in Ireland.
It's true we need a workable banking system.
But why are we saving Anglo and INBS?
By all means save AIB and BOI. They have large branch networks which people can use, they have large customer base, they have access to payments clearing system etc., in all probably worth saving.
Anglo and INBS have none of these but have almost half of the bad loans, despite being relatively small operations.
I ask again, why are we rescuing these?
Could it be that they have some hold on our politicians?

Posy

I'll be working so I can't march but I'll wave at everyone as they go past!

sherdydan

maybe because they are the two banks who are most in the hole?

if theyre not saved, it wont matter a s***e how well supported BOI and ulster bank are, becuase the banking system will have gone to ****

SkepticOne

sherdydan wrote: »

do you mind me asking how in christs name people are going to put there money behind NAMA voluntarily, its taxation, THE GOVERNMENT IS IN CHARGE OF IT!

If it was a great deal they wouldn't have to force people through taxation, they would simply offer it to the market.

sherdydan are you going to back up any of your claims, or just continue spouting unsubstantiated **** for the whole thread?

Blackjack

Anyone got any better ideas than what's been proposed so far by all the Political parties?.

aftermn

sherdydan wrote: »

maybe because they are the two banks who are most in the hole?

if theyre not saved, it wont matter a s***e how well supported BOI and ulster bank are, becuase the banking system will have gone to ****

We don't need to save all banks.
We just need to save a banking system. AIB and BOI are more than sufficient to service the needs of the country. Let the others go and halve the amount of loans needing cover by NAMA.

Anyone got any better ideas than what's been proposed so far by all the Political parties?.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055667261

sherdydan

people are so stupid these days. FF not once have said that this move is not risky, but people just stop complaining, there is NOTHING better on the table at the moment and SOMETHING has to be done

im done even trying to reason with you people on the anti-NAMA side and the anti Lisbon sides. all you people can do is complain, and say everything is a pile of s***e. well if thats how it is, F**K OFF and make a better plan yourself!

Blackjack

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055667261

So No then?.

Count Dooku

sherdydan wrote: »

im not saying it is the DEFINITIVE best plan there is, but that its the best one that has been brought to the table so far. i feel its the best option because of two points:

1)there is a possibility of actually MAKING money for the exchequer with this plan

2)its all quite low risk as the properties are all spread between seperate markets, therefore minimising risk.

now dont get me wrong i do realise that this is all dependant on all properties being bought for realistic figures, and to be honest i would be quite confident that it will be done as such

If there are any minor possibilities to make money there, we would have queue of investors to make money.
NAMA will ruin economy and as result, it will be no house prices growth for long time.
When 500,000 will leave Ireland next year, country will have supply of houses for 10 years and prices will be not driven by construction cost anymore

If there are any minor possibilities to make money there, we would have queue of investors to make money.
NAMA will ruin economy and as result, it will be no house prices growth for long time.
When 500,000 will leave Ireland next year, country will have supply of houses for 10 years and prices will be not driven by construction cost anymore

Properties, which cost now 200K, next year will cost 100K.
A lot of morons trusted to government in 2007 that fundamental sounds and bought on peak, now another morons trusts to the same liars that we reached bottom.

Amhran Nua

Blackjack wrote: »

Anyone got any better ideas than what's been proposed so far by all the Political parties?.

Both David McWilliams and Dermot Desmond have proposed workable alternatives. Amhrán Nua, my own group, have done likewise.

People should be aware that the march on Saturday is being organised by the Socialist Worker's Party, the same ones that protested to close down the Galway airshow, its their banner you'll be marching under.

SLUSK

why do alot of people advocate a system of private profits and socialized losses?

Jumpy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Both David McWilliams and Dermot Desmond have proposed workable alternatives. Amhrán Nua, my own group, have done likewise.

People should be aware that the march on Saturday is being organised by the Socialist Worker's Party, the same ones that protested to close down the Galway airshow, its their banner you'll be marching under.

No one is marching under any banners.

Amhran Nua

Jumpy wrote: »

No one is marching under any banners.

Better tell that to them.

Jumpy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Better tell that to them.

Thats Lisbon type **** you are talking here.

Dont vote no because terrorists want it
Dont vote yes because the government wants it.

People are marching because they want to, keep "who you will be associated with" out of it.

Amhran Nua

Jumpy wrote: »

People are marching because they want to, keep "who you will be associated with" out of it.

Point taken, and its a good point well made, especially in these times, but the march last Saturday was completely hijacked by the shinners to the dismay of the IPU organisers. They even posted on boards about it. It does matter who you are marching beside, unfortunately, because they are using your presence to bolster an agenda you might want nothing to do with.

onekeano

Lenihen stated that the discount would be 30% ie. paying €54 billion from a value of €77 billion. This was not true, as the Minister knows the €77 billion included €9 billion of interest that had been rolled up. So the real figure, is €54 billion from a value of €68 billion which is a 20% discount!!!:mad:

If NAMA is so independent how come Brian Lenihan reserves the right to tell NAMA to reconsider offers on particular sites, take a site bought in Ballsbridge for say €400 million and NAMA offer €200 million. Mr Lenihan can tell NAMA to reconsider the offer made to a man who is a close friend of the Taoiseach who first appointed Mr Lenihan a minister - can this be right?:(

Given the above, is it any wonder that shares prices in the major banks have already risen by around 2000% since the NAMA scheme was announced? Its hardly because the shareholders & financial institutions are delighted for the taxpayer....:D

The march is being organised by the irishpeoplesunion which is a single campaigning on a single issue ie. No to NAMA

Roy

Amhran Nua

onekeano wrote: »

The march is being organised by the irishpeoplesunion which is a single campaigning on a single issue ie. No to NAMA

I see no mention of the IPU on the SWP website, or PACUB's or the other groups marching on Saturday?

bauderline

Count Dooku wrote: »

If there are any minor possibilities to make money there, we would have queue of investors to make money.
NAMA will ruin economy and as result, it will be no house prices growth for long time.
When 500,000 will leave Ireland next year, country will have supply of houses for 10 years and prices will be not driven by construction cost anymore

If there are any minor possibilities to make money there, we would have queue of investors to make money.
NAMA will ruin economy and as result, it will be no house prices growth for long time.
When 500,000 will leave Ireland next year, country will have supply of houses for 10 years and prices will be not driven by construction cost anymore

Properties, which cost now 200K, next year will cost 100K.
A lot of morons trusted to government in 2007 that fundamental sounds and bought on peak, now another morons trusts to the same liars that we reached bottom.

The argument regarding property values is a two way door in my opinion, if you propose that Lennihan's projected future property values are baseless then how can you claim to accurately predict what property prices will be in 12 months time ? What evidence do you have ?

500,000 will leave Ireland next year ? Again, where is the evidence for this ?

I am not pro NAMA per se but the whole anti NAMA lobby smacks of hysteria rather than reasoned debate.... Listening to Brian Lucey this morning on the radio you would think soneone had nicked his packed lunch....

bauderline

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I see no mention of the IPU on the SWP website, or PACUB's or the other groups marching on Saturday?

I wouldn't worry about these groups getting promoted too much, the turnout will be small.... as usual.....

onekeano

I am not pro NAMA per se but the whole anti NAMA lobby smacks of hysteria rather than reasoned debate.... Listening to Brian Lucey this morning on the radio you would think soneone had nicked his packed lunch....[/QUOTE]

I think if you were one of the 400k and soon to be 500k out of a job you might be a little bit hysterical yourself. If you were getting letters to repossess you might be a little hysterical. If you had taken pay cuts you might be a bit hysterical and if you felt this was down to complete incompetence and negligence by teh government you might be just a little bit angry!

Roy

MikeC101

I'm deeply worried, not necessarily about the theory of NAMA itself, but about the potential for political interference in the process.

With the corruption and utter contempt for taxpayers money that seems rife in this government, the temptation for them to help out their friends/supporters will surely be too hard to resist? Mary Coughlan was fine with signing off on another 1.4 million for Rody Molloy to make sure he "went quietly".

I can see the attitude, of "ah sure, it's billions, who'll notice a few million let off here or there" and a wink and a nod taking root - especially if it's true the Finance Minister reserves the right to tell NAMA to reconsider offers.

Having said that, there's no way I'm joining in a march if there are banners like there were at the last one - "No To Lisbon" seemed prevalent, nor do I have any interest in swelling the ranks if it's being used as a platform for the usual suspects - hi there Richard Boyd Barrett - to push their agenda.

antrophe

onekeano wrote: »

I am not pro NAMA per se but the whole anti NAMA lobby smacks of hysteria rather than reasoned debate

Great the way the charges of hysteria always come from those that have an almost hysterical and irrational inability to look for solutions beyond propping up the property markets and banks that led us to the situation we are now in. I marched against NAMA and I'll be out on the 30th for march against cutbacks in the community sector. Hope to see some of you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svgr_5OUQT0

darc

A simple explanation of Nama

House 1 bought for €300k in 2006 & mortgage of €270k
House 2 bought for €400k in 2007 and has a loan of 390k on it,
House 3 bought for €350k in 2005 and has a loan of €330k,
House 4 bought for 500k in 2003 and has €450k mortgage.

Based on a 50% drop from the top and prices being back at 2002/2003 levels, the total value of above today is approx. €950,000

The total mortgage outstanding on the properties is €1.44m

Take a average 30% discount and the amount you can buy all 4 of above properties is €1.1m. (The NAMA rate)


If you owned all above properties and somone said to you they are worth €950k if you sold today, but that we will give you €1.1m for them but not pay you this €1.1m for 10 years, would you think you're getting a good deal.

If you don't think you'd be getting a good deal, NAMA is good.

If you do think getting the €1.1m in the above example in 10 years is a good deal then NAMA have it wrong.

IMHO - Nama is as good as we can get for the situation and hopefully we all learn from it.

MikeC101

antrophe wrote: »

Great the way the charges of hysteria always come from those that have an almost hysterical and irrational inability to look for solutions beyond propping up the property markets and banks that led us to the situation we are now in. I marched against NAMA and I'll be out on the 30th for march against cutbacks in the community sector. Hope to see some of you there.

Onekeano didn't actually make the hysteria comment - he's just quoted the post incorrectly, he started the thread and is anti NAMA.

Amhran Nua

darc wrote: »

IMHO - Nama is as good as we can get for the situation and hopefully we all learn from it.

You know that old saying, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger? Yeah, thats not NAMA.

solas geal

I am neither anti nor pro Nama, but I am happy that the government are doing SOMETHING. You cannot nationalise the entire banking system without losing all credibility on international markets and noone would lend to us. You also can't really just bail out AIB & BOI and let the others go - again this would lead to a complete loss of credibility in the Irish banking sector across international markets. With Nama we may actually make some money from it, property prices WILL rise, to suggest that they won't is just folly.
There is too much complaining for the sake of complaining going on in Ireland. Yes loss of jobs is terrible, yes things probably haven't been managed as well as they could have been- that doesnt mean you just sit back and do nothing and complain about any option put on the table. Ireland needs to have a credible economy to get itself out of this recession, the cornerstone of a credible economy is a credible banking system. We are where we are, let's try and move on from it.

bauderline

antrophe wrote: »

Great the way the charges of hysteria always come from those that have an almost hysterical and irrational inability to look for solutions beyond propping up the property markets and banks that led us to the situation we are now in. I marched against NAMA and I'll be out on the 30th for march against cutbacks in the community sector. Hope to see some of you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svgr_5OUQT0

1. keano didn't make that comment , I did, he was quoting me.
2. For reasons that have been explained ad infinitum we just can't let the banks go to the wall. The current theory is that it was the Bush administrations decision to let Lehman to go to the wall that sparked off the current banking crisis.
3. I cannot see how NAMA will have a substantial effect on property prices, please explain your assertion above.

Amhran Nua

solas geal wrote: »

You cannot nationalise the entire banking system without losing all credibility on international markets and noone would lend to us.

Actually the rumblings from the bond markets are that they would much prefer a strong government and clean banking system than the hobbled affair NAMA would produce.

bauderline

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Actually the rumblings from the bond markets are that they would much prefer a strong government and clean banking system than the hobbled affair NAMA would produce.

WTF !!??

Okay so Ted... What IS the solution for a clean banking system !?

Of all the proposals I thought NAMA was giving us the cleanest system ?

A strong government !? Who a FG / Labour government led by Enda ? Strong ?

SLUSK

So we should bail out bad banks in all eternity? This will lead to worse excesses and worse problems in the future, but who cares about the future? In the long run we're all dead right?

Amhran Nua

bauderline wrote: »

Okay so Ted... What IS the solution for a clean banking system !?

David McWilliams suggested one, Dermot Desmond another, Amhrán Nua (us) have a third.

bauderline wrote: »

Of all the proposals I thought NAMA was giving us the cleanest system ?

Lets get one thing straight here, NAMA is based on a successful model that was used in the Scandinavian countries. Its translation to Ireland however has seen the parts that make it work removed from the process, and a fairly shady arrangement of backroom deals replacing it. Its about as far from clean as it is possible to get.

bauderline wrote: »

A strong government !? Who a FG / Labour government led by Enda ? Strong ?

Strong in the sense that it does not allow itself to be pushed around by private for-profit corporations.

bauderline

SLUSK wrote: »

So we should bail out bad banks in all eternity? This will lead to worse excesses and worse problems in the future, but who cares about the future? In the long run we're all dead right?

No....

The one lesson that needs to be taken from this whole debacle is that financial institutions and markets needs strong, decisive and transparent regulation. Forget NAMA ! This is the real crux of the problem and it hasn't had much debate. You cannot trust politicians or civil servants with this stuff either, you need an independant body...

bauderline

Amhran Nua wrote: »

David McWilliams suggested one, Dermot Desmond another, Amhrán Nua (us) have a third.


Lets get one thing straight here, NAMA is based on a successful model that was used in the Scandinavian countries. Its translation to Ireland however has seen the parts that make it work removed from the process, and a fairly shady arrangement of backroom deals replacing it. Its about as far from clean as it is possible to get.


Strong in the sense that it does not allow itself to be pushed around by private for-profit corporations.

Didn't McWilliams suggest to let the banks fail ? He has finally lost the plot IMO !

I am not convinced by Desmonds theory either... and that's all it is a theory...

Also, I don't buy the whole NAMA is bailing out the developers argument, HOW IS IT ? By all accounts they will still be pursued for their debts by NAMA as the original lender would have done !

I do not see how this enhances the position of most developers !