swimming/tri/Ar - general endurance discussion (split thread)

Enduro

Actually this leads to an interesting point/discussion... when does the length of a single training session become counter productive? For instance, even when I'm training specifically for 24 hour runs I never do more than 4 hours in a single training run, as my thinking is that beyond that point I'm as likely to be tiring myself out as opposed to actually doing anything likely to produce a productive training result.

So, addressing Zuppy in particular, do you think that this point has any validity when it comes to training for ultra distance swims like the channel crossing? I'd be interested to here your thoughts/experiences.

And I've got to say, anyone who completes a channel swim has my utmost respect and admiration. To me it seems like an unbelievable feat of endurance, especially with all the rules involved (No wetsuits etc). 24 hour runs are in the halpenny place in comparison.

--amadeus--

It's funny how no matter how mad or extreme you might seem to your friends and family you can always find someone a bit more hard core.

So my family think marathons are crazy. I think it's baby steps compared to 24 hr races. But Enduro thinks 24hrs is peanuts compared to channel swims. Zuppy though thinks back to back channel swims are a real show of stamina...

I wonder who Lisa looks up to?

Zuppy

I have no idea when a session becomes counter productive, I usually give up before that point :-). I think it is individual conditioning.

Mickeybags has hit the nail on the head, I did back to back sessions swimming and picked up the slack in the gym (mostly shoulder protection stuff towards the end). 6 hours back to back being the longer sessions.

I think AR is a different kettle of fish, looking from the outside. Like triathlon the various sports make it easier to do huge amounts of training without the body breaking down or overtraining. (if your performing is another question)

Bike in the morning, swim midday, run in the evening, horse ride at night for example is IMO easier on the body than 2hr run in the morning, track session at lunch and 2hr run in the evening.

So yes there is a point where you can't run 24hrs to train for a 24hr race. I think there comes a point where the training effect on a session is outweighed by injury potential due to tiredness and lack of form. Not to mind the over-training issues.

(all this just my humble opinion, no magic piece of sports science research up my sleeve to back it up)

Enduro

Thanks for the replies.

I agree that individual conditioning, and ability, are major factors which mean its not possible to define an absolute time/effort beyond which training becomes exhaustion.

Yup, Multisports defintely makes it possible to do more time and effort than training for a single sport. My own thoughts is I can go a long time without pure rest days because I alternate running, cycling and kayaking in my schedule. They all use different muscle groups. I would presume it would be similar for Triathalon, particularly if the swim sessions are technique focused.

From an expedition lenght AR perspective I think there might be some benifit in (occasionally) over-training to exhaustion, but in a very controlled way, as an acclimitisation technique. Thats no more than personal opinion though.

The scientist in me makes me doubt that there is actually much useful sports science out there on the subject of ultra endurance events. Plenty of individual opinion of course!

Zuppy

Well considering you (Enduro) do more than most I would expect your training to be the model for those doing multisport events. I understand that the WTC (Ironman) group put quiet a bit of funding towards research of endurance sport, but it will need Ultras and Ironmen and longer endurance events to be mainstream before we get any real data.

I did my first marathon in 91 and met (at the back where I like to hang out) a bunch of tough auld gits finishing their marathon careers. When I listened to the evolution from them to now, it has progressed massively. I expect ultras and AR to do the same as we learn how and why it works for some but not all athletes.

Think about the lads who thought that drinking would divert the blood from the muscles to the stomach, ergo they only had a cup of water at the halfway mark (or the IAAF rules in the 70's- marathon had 3 water stops). Yet the median time for a marathon has increased and the numbers have at least doubled if not tripled. What would those lads have managed with tech gear/ trainers and gels? And where will AR and Ultras go in the same time?

I like the idea of AR and the long expedition style of it. My problem is if your injured like I am and have to stop the whole team suffers. I still would love to see how the whole logisitics versus sleep versus fueling versus equipement play's out with the performance of the team. Way too many factors. :-)


PS: Sorry for the long rambling, I wish my thoughts would organise themselves.

Enduro

Well considering you (Enduro) do more than most I would expect your training to be the model for those doing multisport events. I understand that the WTC (Ironman) group put quiet a bit of funding towards research of endurance sport, but it will need Ultras and Ironmen and longer endurance events to be mainstream before we get any real data.

What I do is a model, as oppesed to the model! But I am the kind of person who does think about these things a lot, and do my own analysis as much as possible.

Even Ironman events are relatively short and sprinty, from my point of view, so I would treat data returned on that research with a degree of sceptism when it comes to analysing how relevant it would be to events with much longer individual legs, such as ultras, ARs, and channel swims!

I did my first marathon in 91 and met (at the back where I like to hang out) a bunch of tough auld gits finishing their marathon careers. When I listened to the evolution from them to now, it has progressed massively. I expect ultras and AR to do the same as we learn how and why it works for some but not all athletes.

I hope so! Although Irish marathon running has never managed to get back to the peak it reached in the early eigthies (from a top class performance, and I suppose male, point of view).

I like the idea of AR and the long expedition style of it. My problem is if your injured like I am and have to stop the whole team suffers. I still would love to see how the whole logisitics versus sleep versus fueling versus equipement play's out with the performance of the team. Way too many factors. :-)

That's a very interesting discussion alright. If we manage to meet for a conversation in the real world we could be talking for hours about that. (And dealing with injuries is very much a key part of AR teamwork)

Zuppy

I would debate the Ironman being sprinty though. A one day AR doesn't look like it takes the serious athleticism that an Ironman does. The margins are huge when you compare an Ironman to a week long expedition race but most AR and mountain marathons are 2 day affairs. Hardly at max performance level all the way through.

(for others reading, I have no background in AR racing other than having supported the odd one so forgive the generality)

As for the logistics debate- gladly over a coffee or two (might take more), the joy of injury is you look at all the areas you should have while competing and marvel at how they function.

baza1976

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I would debate the Ironman being sprinty though. A one day AR doesn't look like it takes the serious athleticism that an Ironman does. The margins are huge when you compare an Ironman to a week long expedition race but most AR and mountain marathons are 2 day affairs. Hardly at max performance level all the way through.

(for others reading, I have no background in AR racing other than having supported the odd one so forgive the generality)

As for the logistics debate- gladly over a coffee or two (might take more), the joy of injury is you look at all the areas you should have while competing and marvel at how they function.

What is meant by "A one day AR"

Thanks

--amadeus--

a one day adventure race, eg this rather than the full fat insanity of a multi day adventure race

Zuppy

The Gaelforce one day event. as an example.

Enduro

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

A one day AR doesn't look like it takes the serious athleticism that an Ironman does.

The recent Achill ROAR makes an interesting test case for that, with both adventure racers and triathaletes competing against each other in the same event, which was pretty much half way between a normal AR and a Triathalon. The results do the talking!

AR and Triathalon take similar amounts of athleticism. AR generally requires a range of additional skills though, along with much higher levels of self-sufficiency. IMHO of course!

hunnymonster

lol, and ROAR was on the same day as one of the most important triathlons (and end of) the season where all the strongest triathletes in the country were competing. Surely, even you can come up with an comparison with less bias than that Enduro.

It's the same debate that we see regularly over in the fitness forum. "who are the fittest sports people? THere is no absolute answer, the best we can say (based on all the literature) is who is the best prepared for purpose (whatever that peurpose might be). THere is little work done on crossover, because while fun athlete's like us might try alternative events our primary preparation is for what we want to do most. Tunney is a prime example, look even at how his bosy shape has cahnged over last 5 years as he becomes a stronger triathlete, He may still be handy with a hurley, but he is only great as a triathlete now.

Enduro

lol, and ROAR was on the same day as one of the most important triathlons (and end of) the season where all the strongest triathletes in the country were competing. Surely, even you can come up with an comparison with less bias than that Enduro.

I didn't know that as I don't really follow the triathalon season.... you can only race against the people who turn up!

THere is no absolute answer

I agree with that anyway. There are lots of different kinds of fitness/ability.

--amadeus--

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

The Gaelforce one day event. as an example.

Do you distinguish between Adventure Races and Multi-Sport events?

I'm really just on the fringes but would have defined things as:

Ultra - any road (track) race longer than a standard marathon. No upper limit on time but "normal" conditions

Adventure race - any running (walking / hiking) race with unusual terrain or conditions. Eg a race over trails or cross country or in extreme conditions. Distance is not really a factor - the Elephant Race above, the Badwater Ultra or the North Pole marathon are all adventure races

Multi-Day Adventure Race - As above but with overnighters. Eg MdS

Multi-Sport - any race over any distance that involves multiple disciples, eg kayak, run, cycle. Eg GaelForce.

Then you have combos - MultiSport Adventure races or whatever. No really clear terms on it though

Peterx

The way I see it proper one day AR races are quite exclusive affairs requiring navigation, route choice, MTB, offroad running and kayaking skills and they quite often have a novelty abseil/bridge jump/insert your own mediaworthy activity section.
GaelForce, Diamond Quest, ROAR and all other events that use a roadbike and a marked course are all essentially beginner friendly events (which they probably have to be to be viable) While they are beginner friendly the hillruns are at the savage end of the scale and so a huge advantage goes to the hillrunners. (taking CP out of the GF results the 2nd placed finsiher was 10 minutes ahead of me)
Neither the GF or the ROAR are going to be ideal for triathletes or road bikers until they practice their hillrunning and practising hillrunning is something only hillrunners do as it's our season and triathletes have their own season and training to worry about.

I finished about 40th in a triathlon in Derry earlier this year. Horses for courses...

Enduro

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Do you distinguish between Adventure Races and Multi-Sport events?

I'm really just on the fringes but would have defined things as:

Ultra - any road (track) race longer than a standard marathon. No upper limit on time but "normal" conditions

Adventure race - any running (walking / hiking) race with unusual terrain or conditions. Eg a race over trails or cross country or in extreme conditions. Distance is not really a factor - the Elephant Race above, the Badwater Ultra or the North Pole marathon are all adventure races

Multi-Day Adventure Race - As above but with overnighters. Eg MdS

Multi-Sport - any race over any distance that involves multiple disciples, eg kayak, run, cycle. Eg GaelForce.

Then you have combos - MultiSport Adventure races or whatever. No really clear terms on it though

Almost greed on Ultra definition... I'd just say its any running event longer than a marathon (they can also be off-road, indoors, threadmill etc), and I think thats an accepted definition (If I was less lazy I'd look it up on the IAU site ). Not sure what you mean by normal though! The other definitions are all pretty fluid.

Personally I call events like MdS, the Jungle Marathon etc Adventure Runs, and call multisports off-road events Adventure Races. It's much easier (for me) to distinguish between the different types of events that way.

Zuppy

I think we can debate which is better till the cows come home. Kayaker versus rower, AR versus tri head etc. :D:D