Private blue lights

Traumadoc

Last Friday I was passed by a private ambulance ( RR Discovery) at speed on the N11/M11

Do these private jeeps have permission to use lights seeing as they do not go to emergencies (AFAIK)?

timmywex

Afaik they have to get authorization from their control room who then inform the local ambulance control?!

In any case ive seen two in recent weeks on blue lights on what should have been routine transfers (both to wexford general, so not like its a specialist centre)

One was very interesting in that the driver turned the blues on on a straight but didnt use the siren at all so ended up driving at normal speed because cars didnt see him, and he wasnt driving in the overtaking position or anything.

If it is needed ive no problem in theory with privates using blues/twos, but it does beg the question of their expirience with doing so, they wouldnt be used to driving at speed either...

Elessar

Of course they can use them, they are ambulances after all. However it is taken seriously and all light/siren activation must go through the company's control who then pass on the information to ambulance control. That jeep could have been transporting an organ? Hard to know really.

They're not used everyday but routinely enough, particularly for neonatal transfers or particular CCU transfers etc. Also, a patient could have deteoriated enroute.

Sirens would generally not be used in the case of an MI.

ch252

The last day when I was going into town I saw the civil defence ambulance driving towards the hospital with blues the siren but it wasn't speeding, the cars would just pull in and it would overtake which is fine I'd say if the patient was in a serious condition. The way I loot at it is that its fair enough to use the light and sirens if it is an emergency, but emergency or no emergency you can't be putting other road users in danger by driving without the relevant training...and I wouldn't fancy having to explain it if I were to damage somebody elses car while driving an ambulance at speed without the relevant qualifications. Now I don't know the ins and outs of it as I never have driven an ambulance so I'm open to correction

Tester46

Elessar wrote: »

Of course they can use them, they are ambulances after all. However it is taken seriously and all light/siren activation must go through the company's control who then pass on the information to ambulance control. That jeep could have been transporting an organ? Hard to know really.

They're not used everyday but routinely enough, particularly for neonatal transfers or particular CCU transfers etc. Also, a patient could have deteoriated enroute.

Sirens would generally not be used in the case of an MI.

Just out of curiosity, I see a lot of cars on the road with blue lights on the roof and "Doctor" printed on the side and bonnet. At least some of them are operated by Southdoc, a private out-of-hours GP service.

Can any doctor, even a local GP, put blue lights on the roof of their car?

g5fd6ow0hseima

I seen a plain white co. clare registered Caddy van race around Kilkee harbour with a blue light flashing on Saturday night. Considering that there was a rescue boat delpoyed around that time, would those who are members of the rescue crew be allowed to have those lights on their cars?

trad

I'd be interested to know what training is given to vehicles fitted with blues and two's as in the Coast Guard, Prison Service, Mountain rescue, Order of Malta, St John's etc.

seanybiker

my father drives for caredoc here in Wateford, they have green lights on top of the car. I only know of one time he used them but they where also getting a police whatchamicallit in front of them.

benj

seanybiker wrote: »

my father drives for caredoc here in Wateford, they have green lights on top of the car. I only know of one time he used them but they where also getting a police whatchamicallit in front of them.

Escort

trad

benj wrote: »

Escort

Could have been a Mondeo

Drummerboy08

trad wrote: »

Could have been a Mondeo

Focus?

:pac:

I was of the impression that only the ES are allowed to use Blue lights - with the exception of some advanced paramedics, such as a doctor, who has the permission of the local superintendent.

AFAIK, blue lights are reserved for the ES, with Yellow for Customs?

Hooch

Tester46 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I see a lot of cars on the road with blue lights on the roof and "Doctor" printed on the side and bonnet. At least some of them are operated by Southdoc, a private out-of-hours GP service.

Can any doctor, even a local GP, put blue lights on the roof of their car?

South Doc has green lights....illegal.

Doctors may not have a private light, most doctor response cars are health board run.

trad wrote: »

I'd be interested to know what training is given to vehicles fitted with blues and two's as in the Coast Guard, Prison Service, Mountain rescue, Order of Malta, St John's etc.

None.

drill

Elessar wrote: »

Of course they can use them, they are ambulances after all. However it is taken seriously and all light/siren activation must go through the company's control who then pass on the information to ambulance control.

Working in ambulance control over 10 years never had a private ambulance company inform use of blue light use etc.... in the region

Elessar

drill wrote: »

Working in ambulance control over 10 years never had a private ambulance company inform use of blue light use etc.... in the region

Well that's what they are supposed to do. I'm not sure how it's actually done.

maglite

Elessar wrote: »

Well that's what they are supposed to do. I'm not sure how it's actually done.

Says who?

Elessar

The HSE. This was how it was explained to me by people working in the private sector.

Irish_polizei

trad wrote: »

Could have been a Mondeo

Or a 94 transit with the occupants wearing white tea stained vests...

Leo Demidov

In reply to NGA, I believe Civil Defence in Kerry have rolled out a driver training programme that may go national. Its also my understanding that CD College are to assess every driver in every county, a worthwhile aspiration but I'd see budgetary constraints being an issue in both scenarios.

Tango Alpha 51

Elessar wrote: »

The HSE. This was how it was explained to me by people working in the private sector.

In theory, private ambulance providers & voluntary first aid organisations are "supposed" to inform HSE ambulance control that they are transporting a pt using lights & sirens. In reality this has never happened.

Tango Alpha 51

Most of the out of hours doctors schemes ie ShannonDoc, Southdoc, CareDoc etc have green lights on the cars. Never really seen them used responding to calls. Sometimes at mvc's if their there, they will turn them on at scene but that's it. Unlike the UK where green lights are covered under S.I. for doctors to use.

Leo Demidov

I've been in a Caredoc car under green lights bringing a sick child from clinic to hospital. Dont think amb control were notified and tbh dont see that any doctor/driver or vol. member should have any worries once lights are used appropriately and driving is appropriate to their level of training, regardless of patients condition.

Tester46

wexfjord wrote: »

I've been in a Caredoc car under green lights bringing a sick child from clinic to hospital. Dont think amb control were notified and tbh dont see that any doctor/driver or vol. member should have any worries once lights are used appropriately and driving is appropriate to their level of training, regardless of patients condition.

Isn't that the point though? I consider myself a good driver, but I don't think I would be suddenly, magically good enough to race through traffic with blue/green lights on and a siren blaring. I presume the standard GP training course doesn't include an advanced driving module?

That's why I was curious about how/why an out-of-hours GP service has flashing lights on the top of the car.

meathstevie

nice guy always wrote: »

South Doc has green lights....illegal.

Doctors may not have a private light, most doctor response cars are health board run.



None.

Out of interest; are those green lights actually forbidden by law or are they used in an unlegislated for grey area since they're quite a novelty on Irish roads ?

Sierra Oscar

nice guy always wrote: »

South Doc has green lights....illegal.

Doctors may not have a private light, most doctor response cars are health board run.



None.

So does Shannon Doc - I thought most did.

Leo Demidov

Tester46 wrote: »

Isn't that the point though? I consider myself a good driver, but I don't think I would be suddenly, magically good enough to race through traffic with blue/green lights on and a siren blaring. I presume the standard GP training course doesn't include an advanced driving module?

That's why I was curious about how/why an out-of-hours GP service has flashing lights on the top of the car.

I was making a case for the use of lights and not of fast or dangerous driving. The driver in our case drove carefully, the lights allowed him to move with ease through junctions where other drivers gave way, in one case at a red light. While that was a decision made by him personally, it was carried out with care, if not completely legal. We were glad of him and the doctor.

Elessar

Remember, blue lights are only warning beacons to alert others drivers it is an emergency and they should move out of the way. There is no legal obligation for them to do so. I'm sure a guard here will confirm that. I have been in ambulances where the driver has saw fit to wait at the lights where other drivers could not give way because he deemed it too dangerous to skip the queue by using the opposite lane. Using blue lights and sirens doesn't mean you get to drive recklessly.

Tango Alpha 51

meathstevie wrote: »

Out of interest; are those green lights actually forbidden by law or are they used in an unlegislated for grey area since they're quite a novelty on Irish roads ?

They are illegal. If you look up the lighting regulations under the various road traffic acts, there is no mention of them.

sgthighway

Elessar wrote: »

Remember, blue lights are only warning beacons to alert others drivers it is an emergency and they should move out of the way. There is no legal obligation for them to do so.

I think you are correct. I know I was in an Ambulance going through traffic responding to an Emergency Call at a public event where Gardai were on Traffic Duty. Despite having Head Light and Blue Grill Lights & Siren on a Taxi in front of us stopped right in front of us to pick up a fare. Gardai couldn't really stop him as it would have taken longer but I don't think there is an offence in Ireland. It is careless though?

buzzman wrote: »

They are illegal. If you look up the lighting regulations under the various road traffic acts, there is no mention of them.

I don't think its a case of them been illegal as in there is probably no offence for using them but the state only recognise Blue for Emergency Vehicles. They don't recognise Green.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0342.html

Sierra Oscar

I do remember someone in the UK got a fine of £500 recently for obstructing an ambulance.

Hooch

meathstevie wrote: »

Out of interest; are those green lights actually forbidden by law or are they used in an unlegislated for grey area since they're quite a novelty on Irish roads ?

Read bellow

Elessar wrote: »

Remember, blue lights are only warning beacons to alert others drivers it is an emergency and they should move out of the way. There is no legal obligation for them to do so. I'm sure a guard here will confirm that. I have been in ambulances where the driver has saw fit to wait at the lights where other drivers could not give way because he deemed it too dangerous to skip the queue by using the opposite lane. Using blue lights and sirens doesn't mean you get to drive recklessly.

Correct, (s)he can just sit there and not move if they wish.

buzzman wrote: »

They are illegal. If you look up the lighting regulations under the various road traffic acts, there is no mention of them.

Correct

sgthighway wrote: »

I think you are correct. I know I was in an Ambulance going through traffic responding to an Emergency Call at a public event where Gardai were on Traffic Duty. Despite having Head Light and Blue Grill Lights & Siren on a Taxi in front of us stopped right in front of us to pick up a fare. Gardai couldn't really stop him as it would have taken longer but I don't think there is an offence in Ireland. It is careless though?

I don't think its a case of them been illegal as in there is probably no offence for using them but the state only recognise Blue for Emergency Vehicles. They don't recognise Green.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0342.html

Not careless driving, nothing careless unless they try stop you overtaking etc.

They are covered under legislation. It is an offence to have a flashing light in or ouside your vehicle that can be seen by somebody outside the vehicle. Thats the offence. Blue and amber lights are the only ones covered by law.

Of course common sense comes into play here for doctors etc. But as pointed out I personally would recommend extreme caution to vols etc that use blue/green lights. Remember a red cross Ambulance driver as convicted of Dangersous driving between Fermoy and Mallow some years ago using blue lights.....nail in coffin was when judge asked are you a trained AS1 driver....answer no, convicted. It should be worth noting too that all AS1 private Ambulance drivers are trained to the PHECC standard advanced driving course.

No emergency is such that it warrants putting other members of the public in danger.

Hooch

wexfjord wrote: »

In reply to NGA, I believe Civil Defence in Kerry have rolled out a driver training programme that may go national. Its also my understanding that CD College are to assess every driver in every county, a worthwhile aspiration but I'd see budgetary constraints being an issue in both scenarios.

Just depends on how long the course is and what the content of the course is. A two day course doesnt cut it. You need the two/three weeks. Hope they do it right, it would be a shame to waste it!

maglite

nice guy always wrote: »

Remember a red cross Ambulance driver as convicted of Dangersous driving between Fermoy and Mallow some years ago using blue lights.....nail in coffin was when judge asked are you a trained AS1 driver....answer no, convicted.

There was more to it than that, the was a question over the reason they were being used.

Leo Demidov

nice guy always wrote: »

Just depends on how long the course is and what the content of the course is. A two day course doesnt cut it. You need the two/three weeks. Hope they do it right, it would be a shame to waste it!

Just checked it, the course was a mere five days which as you say is probably not adequate in the grander scheme of things.

In any event it can only be a good thing that any level of training is made available and should possibly be made compulsory for drivers of all vehicles deemed e/s whether frontline or not.

If it has flashy lights, then it would be nice to know that the driver has met some minimum criteria, regardless of organisation.

Not sure who instructed or to what standard but its possibly fire service as they have an extremely good relationship in kery. Fire service driving instructor is made available to CD for some fire training, albeit on his own time.

BeardyGit

Just to flag that a lot of drivers of MR vehicles are actually trained ES drivers as part of their day jobs in the other services (fire, police/gardaí, army, coastguard and health board ambulances etc), so it's not really a fair representation to lump us in with other voluntary drivers, with the greatest respect to those vols.

There's also a very strict governance in place for any MR driver and not all members of a team are approved to either drive or operate on blues, even if they drive an appliance or a meatwagon as their day job....at least that's the case for DWMRT.

I'd be fairly certain the same is the case for the Coastguard. Non frontline services may differ greatly, but I think there's a difference in fairness....

Leo Demidov

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Just to flag that a lot of drivers of MR vehicles are actually trained ES drivers as part of their day jobs in the other services (fire, police/gardaí, army, coastguard and health board ambulances etc), so it's not really a fair representation to lump us in with other voluntary drivers, with the greatest respect to those vols.

There's also a very strict governance in place for any MR driver and not all members of a team are approved to either drive or operate on blues, even if they drive an appliance or a meatwagon as their day job....at least that's the case for DWMRT.

I'd be fairly certain the same is the case for the Coastguard. Non frontline services may differ greatly, but I think there's a difference in fairness....

Modest arent we

maglite

Should the question be asked, why are vols on blue lights that often.

I'm coming fomr the approach of being in the back of one, I have seldom asked our drivers to blue light it, they dont know how to drive on lights, and for most of the things we see and transport ont need lights, those that do, well they prob should have had a HSE lad pop out to it.

BeardyGit

wexfjord wrote: »

Modest arent we

Modesty has nothing to do with it - I'm giving a bit of perspective to ye, instead of allowing otherwise knowledgeable folks inadvertently perpetuate a fallacy. I thought that kind of informal knowledge 'sharing' was to be encouraged.

The reason I mentioned my own team is to avoid lumping all the MR teams in together - Each has its own policy on drivers, lights etc and I wouldn't want to give any other impression.... Neither policy nor standards are universal in this regard, but there's no harm in pointing out that some volunteer staffed services are partly comprised of fulltime professionals volunteering after hours, and we therefore benefit from their day job training, perhaps moreso than what are collectively referred to as the 'vols'

No harm in flagging that, surely?

Hooch

maglite wrote: »

There was more to it than that, the was a question over the reason they were being used.

Yes that fact he was going home and not anywhere in particular helped also!!

wexfjord wrote: »

Just checked it, the course was a mere five days which as you say is probably not adequate in the grander scheme of things.

In any event it can only be a good thing that any level of training is made available and should possibly be made compulsory for drivers of all vehicles deemed e/s whether frontline or not.

If it has flashy lights, then it would be nice to know that the driver has met some minimum criteria, regardless of organisation.

Not sure who instructed or to what standard but its possibly fire service as they have an extremely good relationship in kery. Fire service driving instructor is made available to CD for some fire training, albeit on his own time.

Ya a week is very very short but as your say its a start!

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Just to flag that a lot of drivers of MR vehicles are actually trained ES drivers as part of their day jobs in the other services (fire, police/gardaí, army, coastguard and health board ambulances etc), so it's not really a fair representation to lump us in with other voluntary drivers, with the greatest respect to those vols.

There's also a very strict governance in place for any MR driver and not all members of a team are approved to either drive or operate on blues, even if they drive an appliance or a meatwagon as their day job....at least that's the case for DWMRT.

I'd be fairly certain the same is the case for the Coastguard. Non frontline services may differ greatly, but I think there's a difference in fairness....

A lot of drivers from other MT, KMRT etc are ES trained as you say from their job. But in the grand scheme of things the vast majority of people driving vol ambulances, Coast Guard vehicles, RNLI jeeps, etc are not trained whatsoever! Coast guard volunteers have no training whatsoever by the Coast Guard, which is crazy considering the amount of calls units get (as gil said some are ES trained but to be fair it would amount to less than one per unit)

Tester46

nice guy always wrote: »

A lot of drivers from other MT, KMRT etc are ES trained as you say from their job. But in the grand scheme of things the vast majority of people driving vol ambulances, Coast Guard vehicles, RNLI jeeps, etc are not trained whatsoever! Coast guard volunteers have no training whatsoever by the Coast Guard, which is crazy considering the amount of calls units get (as gil said some are ES trained but to be fair it would amount to less than one per unit)

So is it the case then that only certain State-run vehicles can have blue lights and that private vehicles (e.g. out-of-hours GP services) can't have either blue lights or green lights?

I do vaguely remember hearing about a case that said (as others above have pointed out) that even a HSE ambulance with blue lights and sirens still has to follow the road traffic laws. The blue lights don't in any way exempt it from the normal rules. Presumably then the same applies to doctors with blue/green lights i.e. even if they have them on, it doesn't allow them to drive down the middle of the road, break red lights, etc.

Worth noting for people so they don't get caught out thinking they are entitled to break lights, if they are not.

trad

My experience of operating under blues and twos is that you are exempt a lot of provisions of the RTA right up to the point where you hit something.

deadwood

wexfjord wrote: »

Modest arent we

We've a lot to be modest about!

ScubaDave

Tester46 wrote: »

I do vaguely remember hearing about a case that said (as others above have pointed out) that even a HSE ambulance with blue lights and sirens still has to follow the road traffic laws. The blue lights don't in any way exempt it from the normal rules. Presumably then the same applies to doctors with blue/green lights i.e. even if they have them on, it doesn't allow them to drive down the middle of the road, break red lights, etc.

Just to add in that there are exemptions under the road traffic act for most bylaws for emergency vehicles. The RTA also specfies exactly what is classed as an emergency vehicle.

Just to note that these exemptions are valid at all times accoding to the RTA and it says nothing about the vehicle having to activate its blue lights!!

trad

The only grey area is that there is no definition of an ambulance under the RTA (unless it's been done lately), and given the range of vehicles used from front line ambulances, paramedic cars, motorcycles etc. I would imagine it will be difficult to categorise it. It would appear as long as a Local Authority taxes a vehicle as an ambulance it's an ambulance.

Traumadoc

sgthighway wrote: »

I don't think its a case of them been illegal as in there is probably no offence for using them but the state only recognise Blue for Emergency Vehicles. They don't recognise Green.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0342.html

Does this mean the flashing yellow lights on Tractors are illegal?

ch252

Traumadoc wrote: »

Does this mean the flashing yellow lights on Tractors are illegal?

AFAIK they are in fact illegal but the fact that they are safer with the lights on means they generally don't get reprimanded for it

Irish_polizei

darragh-k wrote: »

AFAIK they are in fact illegal but the fact that they are safer with the lights on means they generally don't get reprimanded for it

Recovery vehicles, slow moving vehicles, abnormal loads, escort vehicles etc are all permitted to use amber coloured attention lights, .....this craic of having amber lights on vans for no apparent reason is a bit stupid and qualify as illegal, but personally i pass no attention to them what so ever....:rolleyes:

goldie fish

My local doc has a Green Land rover Defender with a host of blue strobes as he acts as "Accident Emergency response".
It isn't really an ambulance as such, but both him and his father before him(also a Doc) always had landies with blues for any emergency.

donvito99

goldie fish wrote: »

but both him and his father before him(also a Doc) always had landies with blues for any emergency.

Ah, how lovely....:p

macroman

Does anyone know the legislation regarding blue lights on preserved emergency vehicles?

I haven't been able to get clarification regarding it, but I'd like to get some idea on the laws opinion regarding it. I own a few vintage emergency service vehicles, and of course have lights fitted during the restoration process. I have never had any issues with Guards -- most have been more curious to why a 1970's Fire Engine is doing on the road.

Of course we don't use blues and twos on the road, but we do use them on private grounds at gatherings & shows. We just have the beacons fitted for show and authenticity more so than anything. We don't want to impersonate the EMS, and we have notices of preservation on display when out and about.

Where does Irish law stand with it?

ivabiggon

i'd say this is one of the advantages of gardai having discretionary powers... were would we be without them? county would grind to a halt.
if you look to deep into that you'll get yourself in a knot. wait till someone come knocking on your door first, sure if your behaving on a public road with a vintage you probably will never get that knock!

sure i love the old fashioned claxon air horn more that the electric one... real fire engine-ish always turn heads when flying through Dublin.

Hooch

ivabiggon wrote: »

i'd say this is one of the advantages of gardai having discretionary powers... were would we be without them?

+1
Dont worry as long as your not using them driving to the shop then your fine. Use away in parades etc nobody will say a word to you.