Alternative remapping

DaMonk

Hi there,

Was talking to a mechanic today that has a guy doing remaps for him. I asked him where is he getting the maps and he said he has a database. He also claimed something interesting. he claimed that for same make cars sharing similar engines like e46 323ci, 325ci and 328ci, that the block is the same as well as the bore size. The only difference is in the stroke length.

He said that he has put standard maps from the bigger engine into the smaller engine an run them without problem and with considerable extra power e.g. putting a 2.8 map into the 2.5 engine. From researching it, the only real difference in physical spec is the stroke length, if the injectors are timed to the camshaft through the valves then igniton should occur at the correct time??? the difference is a higher compression??

I have an s60 2.0T which shares the same block and bore size as the 2.3T engine. Think there's 3mm difference in the stroke length. Could this actually be a realistic way of getting the extra power output, that the engine thinks its a 2.3? Would the higher compression damage the engine?

Plug

Don't bother, if your getting a remap just get it done properly.

DaMonk

Plug wrote: »

Don't bother, if your getting a remap just get it done properly.

I know, I'm just putting the question out there for some sort of debate on the feasibility of it.

Mr Benevolent

AFAIK remaps only make a noticeable difference if there's a turbo, so surely his claims don't stand up?

Plug

The engine sizes are different so a bigger engine will suck in more air. The map(manifold apsolute pressure sensor) will send a message to the ECU and the actuators(plugs and injectors) will put the correct amount of in fuel in and ignite it at a specific time.

If you get a map from the bigger engine and put it in a smaller one it will tell the injectors to insert more fuel. More fuel isin't always good. Different size engines have different ignition times because fuel takes time to burn. A bigger engine takes more fuel in and will ignite it a few degress ahead of a smaller engine on the compression stroke to allow the pressure to build.

Too much fuel in a smaller engine won't burn properly.
www.superchips.co.uk

Owen

Confab wrote: »

AFAIK remaps only make a noticeable difference if there's a turbo, so surely his claims don't stand up?

Common misconception. I know I'm constantly on about MINIs, so apologies in advance, but both the tritec enginer MINI One (90bhp 1.6), and MINI Cooper (Same engine, 115bhp 1.6) are easily remapped to 135bhp.

Mr Benevolent

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Common misconception. I know I'm constantly on about MINIs, so apologies in advance, but both the tritec enginer MINI One (90bhp 1.6), and MINI Cooper (Same engine, 115bhp 1.6) are easily remapped to 135bhp.

Very interesting. Do you know of any other cars with this little trick up their sleeves? Are they detuned for a specific reason?

Eoin

DaMonk wrote: »

Hi there,

Was talking to a mechanic today that has a guy doing remaps for him. I asked him where is he getting the maps and he said he has a database. He also claimed something interesting. he claimed that for same make cars sharing similar engines like e46 323ci, 325ci and 328ci, that the block is the same as well as the bore size. The only difference is in the stroke length.

I'm not sure if I am picking you up right, but the 325 and 525 engine was a completely new engine to the 323 and 523, although they were the same cc. Also, I've heard that the e46 doesn't respond particularly well to mapping. You might iron out some flat spots, but BHP won't be noticeably increased.

Sorry if I've just picked on a random example you made!

DaMonk

eoin wrote: »

I'm not sure if I am picking you up right, but the 325 and 525 engine was a completely new engine to the 323 and 523, although they were the same cc. Also, I've heard that the e46 doesn't respond particularly well to mapping. You might iron out some flat spots, but BHP won't be noticeably increased.

Sorry if I've just picked on a random example you made!

a bit random but your right. Pretty sure the 323 and 328 are the same but the 325 came out in 2001 if I'm not way off.

Eoin

Could be right there - the 525 came out in late 2000, so the 325 may have been a couple of months later.

Mr.Diagnostic

Your source of alternative mapping is to be avoided. If your mechanic told you what you posted he did then he should know better.
If you want mapping done then you would be better off finding a good recommended source.

kdevitt

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Common misconception. I know I'm constantly on about MINIs, so apologies in advance, but both the tritec enginer MINI One (90bhp 1.6), and MINI Cooper (Same engine, 115bhp 1.6) are easily remapped to 135bhp.

Its not exactly a misconception - the likes of the MINI are an exception, as are other cars that come with a detuned engine.

The newer N/A BMW's for instance don't benefit at all - my 328ci got a .1 bhp gain on the rollers and a fcuked up torque curve ( I was quoted a 20 BHP gain ). All the remapping companies will swear blind they can give the BMW's a better throttle response - when in fact you can do it yourself my resetting the adaptive throttle.

Gumbo

kdevitt wrote: »

Its not exactly a misconception - the likes of the MINI are an exception, as are other cars that come with a detuned engine.

The newer N/A BMW's for instance don't benefit at all - my 328ci got a .1 bhp gain on the rollers and a fcuked up torque curve ( I was quoted a 20 BHP gain ). All the remapping companies will swear blind they can give the BMW's a better throttle response - when in fact you can do it yourself my resetting the adaptive throttle.

Ken, please explain how to do this, ive heard of this before as the car can get used to inner city driving etc etc

E39MSport

http://www.evolveyourcar.co.uk/ will get you 30 horsies and 80 turkeys on your 2.0T S60. I got a switchable solution from them for my RRS and it added crazy power to the mid range.

tossy

Confab wrote: »

Very interesting. Do you know of any other cars with this little trick up their sleeves? Are they detuned for a specific reason?

99% of cars are 'de-tuned' from the factory,some by greater margins than others.

The specific reason being manufacturers release cars with a built in margin for safety,so one ECU map for all climates and to suit all driving styles from the more aggressive to the more mechanically sympathetic.Otherwise latest models would be breaking down wholesale and result in bad press.

Shires

Plug wrote: »

The engine sizes are different so a bigger engine will suck in more air.

A bit nerdy but ... on the subject of air and beemers: some of the older BMW engines like the M52 are deliberately retarded.

Under the covers the 2.3 is the 2.5 engine with a more restrictive inlet manifold to choke it. I've heard you can swap the manifold easily enough, dunno what other bits you'd need and whether the exhaust side is also different. The 2.8 engine should be capable of developing a lot more power, but for the size and thirstiness of the thing it has a disappointing 190BHP. I hear you can swap the intake manifold on that one from an older engine (M50) to get more horsies

:pac: :pac:

Plug

Shires wrote: »

A bit nerdy but ... on the subject of air and beemers: some of the older BMW engines like the M52 are deliberately retarded.

Under the covers the 2.3 is the 2.5 engine with a more restrictive inlet manifold to choke it. I've heard you can swap the manifold easily enough, dunno what other bits you'd need and whether the exhaust side is also different. The 2.8 engine should be capable of developing a lot more power, but for the size and thirstiness of the thing it has a disappointing 190BHP. I hear you can swap the intake manifold on that one from an older engine (M50) to get more horsies

:pac: :pac:

A new ECU would be a yes. I presume a bigger exhaust to get rid of the higher amount of gases coming from the higher spec engine. Probably a gear box, the gear ratio's would be different to compensate for the the extra power.
A bit nerdy there too:pac:

Shires

Plug wrote: »

Probably a gear box, the gear ratio's would be different to compensate for the the extra power.

Didn't think of that but surely the manufacturer would only change the final drive? I'd guess it's the cheaper thing for them to do, rather than have a big selection of gearboxes.

... which makes me wonder what happens to the drivetrain and engines on remapped turbodiesels when they're not looked after. Not sure I'd do it myself!

Plug

Shires wrote: »

Didn't think of that but surely the manufacturer would only change the final drive? I'd guess it's the cheaper thing for them to do, rather than have a big selection of gearboxes.

... which makes me wonder what happens to the drivetrain and engines on remapped turbodiesels when they're not looked after. Not sure I'd do it myself!

Just the gear ratios would be changed maybe not all, not the box itself.
For your second question its like any engine, you modifiy it for more power and it will cause problems along the line. The likes of a simple remapping wouldn't cause any problems with the drivetrain but maybe the clutch would disapear quicker.

JHMEG

Shires wrote: »

A bit nerdy but ... on the subject of air and beemers: some of the older BMW engines like the M52 are deliberately retarded.

Under the covers the 2.3 is the 2.5 engine with a more restrictive inlet manifold to choke it.

Not restricted to BMWs, and the restrictive manifolds can be a price thing. Start changing manifolds tho, and next you're onto cams, and then there's no end when it might just have been better, cheaper, and easier to trade up.

galwaytt

kdevitt wrote: »

- when in fact you can do it yourself my resetting the adaptive throttle.

kceire wrote: »

Ken, please explain how to do this, ive heard of this before as the car can get used to inner city driving etc etc

From memory, the TT does this as well. Can't remember the details, but I'm sure I did that on one or other of my 2........

tossy wrote: »

99% of cars are 'de-tuned' from the factory,some by greater margins than others.

The specific reason being manufacturers release cars with a built in margin for safety,so one ECU map for all climates and to suit all driving styles from the more aggressive to the more mechanically sympathetic.Otherwise latest models would be breaking down wholesale and result in bad press.

Other reasons: Noise regs vary. Namby-pamby countries want quieter ones. Also, emissions laws vary. As does fuel quality. A lot of US uses methanol-mixed petrol.

tossy wrote: »

Otherwise latest models would be breaking down wholesale and result in bad press

Ha ! I think you'll find that is happening already !