Confused - Loving God

Phototoxin

I was at my fiancées church this Sunday. Last Sunday I thought about not going this time but I did. I won't be going next time.

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing. Yet by her being a Chrisitan there is an innate sense of 'second best' which I think could be problematic. She expressed that she's a little sad that I don't feel Christian but understands that I don't want to be hypocritical. Thankfully she said that she found said sermon challenging so I don't know how she fully feels. But its bothering me.

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.

It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.

anyone have any advice?

Turtwig

Phototoxin wrote: »

I was at my fiancées church this Sunday. Last Sunday I thought about not going this time but I did. I won't be going next time.

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing. Yet by her being a Chrisitan there is an innate sense of 'second best' which I think could be problematic. She expressed that she's a little sad that I don't feel Christian but understands that I don't want to be hypocritical. Thankfully she said that she found said sermon challenging so I don't know how she fully feels. But its bothering me.

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.

It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.

anyone have any advice?

Ok, I may get shot down for this (Non Christian) and if I deserve it please do guys

God is your creator and lover. He understands you more than anyone or anything. If you can love Him more than anything with all your heart, all your soul and all you mind then you are truly his disciple and thus, you already love all his other creations (your fellow brothers and sisters) equally.
So you see, you can love your fiancee just as much as you love God..it is just very difficult. But I think that's what that sermon meant.

Phototoxin

well I find it easy as I dont particularly like god

chozometroid

Phototoxin wrote: »

I was at my fiancées church this Sunday. Last Sunday I thought about not going this time but I did. I won't be going next time.

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing. Yet by her being a Chrisitan there is an innate sense of 'second best' which I think could be problematic. She expressed that she's a little sad that I don't feel Christian but understands that I don't want to be hypocritical. Thankfully she said that she found said sermon challenging so I don't know how she fully feels. But its bothering me.

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.

It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.

anyone have any advice?

You are being tried by fire. You are on your way to being a very strong refined Christian.

I've heard others say that they don't think they love God more than their wife. I think the issue is in how well you know and appreciate the person. Knowing God is something that takes more effort, but your experiences in life will help your relationship grow stronger. When you see that God is indeed working things out in your life, and you appreciate what He has done, you come to have a greater love for Him.
It's something I'm working on as well. Making Jesus a part of my everyday life is something I have to put a lot of effort into. We are so busy in our normal wordly daily lives, dealing with other people, that it's easy to put God last in our schedule. It's understandable that you feel more love toward someone you are around so often and probably communicate with a great deal, share feelings with, etc. God wants this same relationship with us. He is our loving Father.
The reason we should love God more than anything is because He gave us life, and He died for us. He first loved us.

I will pray for you. I believe you will get through this. I know you will. God has done this for me.

Turtwig

Phototoxin wrote: »

well I find it easy as I dont particularly like god

Okkk,

Maltytheirritable wrote:

God is her creator and lover. He understands her more than anyone or anything. If she can love Him more than anything with all her heart, all her soul and all her mind then she truly is His disciple and thus, she already love all His other creations (your fellow brothers and sisters) equally.
So you see, She can love you just as much as she loves God..it is just very difficult. But I think that's what that sermon meant.

Lol @ Chozo : We both made the same mistake..

JimiTime

Phototoxin wrote: »

well I find it easy as I dont particularly like god

Do you believe he exists?

Phototoxin

I think he probably does but if he does then he's capricious and egotistical.

JimiTime

Phototoxin wrote: »

I think he probably does but if he does then he's capricious and egotistical.

I think you would be best to work out if you believe he exists or not first. After you answer that question with clarity, then tackle what type of Character he is. Or if you conclude he doesn't exist, then you don't need to worry. No point in disliking someone who you don't believe exists afterall.

Phototoxin

Like I said I'm not that sure and even if he does it doesn't matter that much to me.

Zombrex

Phototoxin wrote: »

Like I said I'm not that sure and even if he does it doesn't matter that much to me.

You might believe that a god exists without necessarily having to think it is the Christian God. Perhaps looking around at other religions might help, or simply becoming an agnostic

prinz

Your fiancée's love of God doesn't compete with her love for you, it complements it.

JimiTime

Phototoxin wrote: »

Like I said I'm not that sure and even if he does it doesn't matter that much to me.

It seems to me like you are angry, maybe bitter about something. The fact that you don't know if God exists or not would suggest that wherever this anger stems from, its not God. If my amateur deduction is correct, I reckon you need to root out what is troubling you.

DR. Phil out:)

mark renton

JimiTime wrote: »

It seems to me like you are angry, maybe bitter about something. The fact that you don't know if God exists or not would suggest that wherever this anger stems from, its not God. If my amateur deduction is correct, I reckon you need to root out what is troubling you.

DR. Phil out:)

of course he's bitter Phil - God is getting all his missuses attention

kelly1

Phototoxin wrote: »

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing.

I agree that God should be No. 1. God created the universe and gave us life and His mere will keeps the universe in existence. God is both our source and destiny.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Yet by her being a Chrisitan there is an innate sense of 'second best' which I think could be problematic.

But you are 2nd best. You're not God...

Phototoxin wrote: »

She expressed that she's a little sad that I don't feel Christian but understands that I don't want to be hypocritical. Thankfully she said that she found said sermon challenging so I don't know how she fully feels. But its bothering me.

What matters is how much you love her, not how much she loves you and I'm sure she does! Don't put conditions on your love for her.

Phototoxin wrote: »

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens.

Why are you angry at God? Is it because of the bad things that happen? And does this really happen every time you pray? That would be quite remarkable.

Phototoxin

It seems to me like you are angry, maybe bitter about something

Yes I am angry as any time I question for answers something bad happens.

I am angry that the default is damnation as I hardly think this is fair.

I don't think I'm angry at being ill anymore. Maybe I am I don't know.

I am angry at a lot of crap i read and see going on in the world and there is nothing practical we can do to stop it. I'd've thought ~5000 years of civilisation* would mean that we'd have a utopian society by now.


*CIVILISATION not HUMANS (not a young earth creationist)

kelly1

Phototoxin wrote: »

I am angry at a lot of crap i read and see going on in the world and there is nothing practical we can do to stop it. I'd've thought ~5000 years of civilisation* would mean that we'd have a utopian society by now.

This is one of the reasons I put my faith and trust in Jesus. It's clear to me that we as a human race are incapable of solving our own problems because we're inside the "broken" system. We need an outside "agent", something greater than the "system" to show us the way.

We are a broken race. Our selfishness leads us to all kinds of problem. Actually I think selfishness is the root cause of all our problems.

Over the centuries there have been all kinds of humas philosophies and systems that promised us utopia but all have failed. As long as we try to work exclusively with the system and refuse to call on God for help, we're ultimately doomed.

robindch

Phototoxin wrote: »

I'd've thought ~5000 years of civilisation* would mean that we'd have a utopian society by now.

It's certainly not utopian, but we are living in a world that, in many if not most places -- despite the doom-laden predictions of many people, a large section of whom profit by their unhappy prognostications -- is one hell of a lot more peaceful, prosperous, healthy and law-abiding than frankly, just about any previous period in human existence.

Stephen Pinker talks about the disjunct between the reality of our current world and the perception of it, in this TED video:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Turtwig

kelly1 wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I put my faith and trust in Jesus. It's clear to me that we as a human race are incapable of solving our own problems because we're inside the "broken" system. We need an outside "agent", something greater than the "system" to show us the way.

This is one of reason, I turned away completely from religion.

We may be a broken system, but we have the necessary neurological wiring to change that OURSELVES.

Phototoxin

Actually I think selfishness is the root cause of all our problems.

I agree but why are some more selfish than others?

kelly1

Malty_T wrote: »

This is one of reason, I turned away completely from religion.

We may be a broken system, but we have the necessary neurological wiring to change that OURSELVES.

If that's the case, why hasn't it happened since the dawn of civilization. Surely a look at the news would be enough to convince you that mankind is very messed up?

robindch

Phototoxin wrote: »

why are some more selfish than others?

Dawkins explains why this happens in his introduction-level take on (one branch of) modern evolutionary theory, The Selfish Gene.

If you don't like Dawkins, then the Wiki pages on Human Behavioral Ecology and Evolutionary Psychology and Evolutionary Game Theory are as good as any places to start a wiki-wander around this slightly technical field.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Surely a look at the news would be enough to convince you that mankind is very messed up?

...which assumes that the news is giving you an unbiased picture.

The news, of course, is there to help sell itself as an outlet of serious consequence (and its corporate sponsors too, of course) and it's surprisingly hard to do that by printing or broadcasting pictures of smiling babies, tinkling brooks and fluffy bunny rabbits.

BTW, you might find that Pinker video interesting.

Phototoxin

Dawkins explains why this happens in his introduction-level take on (one branch of) modern evolutionary theory, The Selfish Gene.

If you don't like Dawkins, then the Wiki pages on Human Behavioral Ecology and Evolutionary Psychology and Evolutionary Game Theory are as good as any places to start a wiki-wander around this slightly technical field.

but if everyone was alturistic then everyone would benifit more like in the tit for tat game

PDN

Phototoxin wrote: »

but if everyone was alturistic then everyone would benifit more like in the tit for tat game

Not in a world of finite resources. I read somewhere recently that it is physically impossible (without some hitherto undiscovered new technologies) for everyone in the world to live the standard of lifestyle that we live in Ireland. There simply aren't the resources on earth to sustain it.

So, while we're complaining about the hit some of us have taken in the recession, we would all have to take a much bigger hit if resources were to be shared on a more equitable basis.

Most of the people in the two-thirds world would benefit if everyone was altruistic. Those of us who live in wealthy nations like Ireland would lose out (at least materially).

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Not in a world of finite resources. I read somewhere recently that it is physically impossible (without some hitherto undiscovered new technologies) for everyone in the world to live the standard of lifestyle that we live in Ireland. There simply aren't the resources on earth to sustain it.

So, while we're complaining about the hit some of us have taken in the recession, we would all have to take a much bigger hit if resources were to be shared on a more equitable basis.

Most of the people in the two-thirds world would benefit if everyone was altruistic. Those of us who live in wealthy nations like Ireland would lose out (at least materially).

So really, 'we' are the east side of Fanny Craddocks hypothetical scenario.

robindch

Phototoxin wrote: »

but if everyone was alturistic then everyone would benifit more like in the tit for tat game

Yes, that's correct. However, if you accept, as most biologists do, that at least some behaviour is genetically predetermined to at least to some degree, then genetic drift is going to make it impossible to maintain a society in which every person is equally altruistic, and over time, people will arise who will intentionally or otherwise abuse trust, and benefit, with respect to other members, by doing so.

A state inhabited by perfect altrusists is clearly the safest and easiest place to be, but that only possible where everybody's the same and remains so. In practice, that doesn't happen, hence the problem.

Phototoxin

well basically we are killing the 'weaker tribe'. When we do there will be no one else to exploit ...

robindch

Phototoxin wrote: »

well basically we are killing the 'weaker tribe'. When we do there will be no one else to exploit ...

If there are just a few untrustworthy people, then they may do well at the expense of everybody else. However, as their numbers grow, the ability for them to abuse the trust, or acquire the resources, of the remainder diminishes and the ability of the society overall "declines". And unless things are really bad, the anti-social elements wouldn't be killing the "weaker tribe", they'd just be outbreeding them.

For an indefinitely-propagating solution, there's an equilibrium -- known as an Evolutionarily stable strategy -- which is effectively struck between the number of altruistic members who keep society working, and the number of anti-social ones who prey upon them.

gaynorvader

Phototoxin wrote: »

I am angry at a lot of crap i read and see going on in the world and there is nothing practical we can do to stop it. I'd've thought ~5000 years of civilisation* would mean that we'd have a utopian society by now.


*CIVILISATION not HUMANS (not a young earth creationist)

I read a good quote regarding this, can't remember where, but here's the gist of it;

Civilisation just means having better ways of killing one another.

Húrin

Phototoxin, if the God you're praying to is the same guy that is described in the Old Testament, then I would guess you're on your way to becoming a great prophet or preacher.

Phototoxin wrote: »

well basically we are killing the 'weaker tribe'. When we do there will be no one else to exploit ...

Morality is the opposite of natural selection.

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

Morality is the opposite of natural selection.

It will certainly seem this way if you don't understand natural selection.

postcynical

Phototoxin wrote: »

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing.

This is the difficult part of Christianity, actually trusting God. Putting all your faith and love in Him. If and when you make that step you'll realise that all the candles, incense, happy friendly people, sense of community, high ideals, aspirations for a perfect society, acts of social justice, prayers... all of that "stuff" that Christians do, it all fades into the background. Christianity is about developing a relationship with God and once you know Him, and trust in Him, you cannot but love Him.

Our love of friends and family or spouses and children come second to our love for Him. That's a measure of how great our love is for Him rather than how little it is for them.

Hope that helps, but we've all been there. You have to find your own way, just like everyone else.

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.

That's incredible. Do you put it down to coincidence? If not, what do you think God (a loving Father) is trying to make you realise about your life?

It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.

No offence but that sounds arrogant. Also why compare yourself with mediocrity? Why not compare yourself with people who know and live the Bible with their heart and their intelligence?

anyone have any advice?

Everyone has to find their own way.

Phototoxin

Quote:
I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.
That's incredible. Do you put it down to coincidence? If not, what do you think God (a loving Father) is trying to make you realise about your life?

I don't know.

Quote:
It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.
No offence but that sounds arrogant. Also why compare yourself with mediocrity? Why not compare yourself with people who know and live the Bible with their heart and their intelligence?

Well the average churchgoer is the average church goer innit? They live the bible or whatever supposedly

Quote:
anyone have any advice?
Everyone has to find their own way.

[flippant] sodomising goats FTW! [/flippant]

maskofsanity

Phototoxin wrote: »

I was at my fiancées church this Sunday. Last Sunday I thought about not going this time but I did. I won't be going next time.

Basically part of the sermon was explaining how Christians must love God more than anyone else. I found this difficult as I love my fiancée more than anyone/thing. Yet by her being a Chrisitan there is an innate sense of 'second best' which I think could be problematic. She expressed that she's a little sad that I don't feel Christian but understands that I don't want to be hypocritical. Thankfully she said that she found said sermon challenging so I don't know how she fully feels. But its bothering me.

I am very angry at God. Every time I attempt some form of praying or anything then something bad happens. My Fiancée suggested it could be Stan from Below but its been that way and I only get hurt more each time.

It seems that I know more bible than the average person and so disagree with a lot of what they say and not only that can back it up.

anyone have any advice?

Try living your life on the assumtion that there is no god and hey presto as if by "magic" all that confusion and anger just floats away.... I realise your wife might not like that but hey if she loves you its not a problem is it?

Fanny Cradock

maskofsanity wrote: »

Try living your life on the assumtion that there is no god and hey presto as if by "magic" all that confusion and anger just floats away.... I realise your wife might not like that but hey if she loves you its not a problem is it?

What a startling form of intellectual dishonesty. You might as well click your heals together 3 times.

maskofsanity

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What a startling form of intellectual dishonesty. You might as well click your heals together 3 times.

Oh I don't think so... If he didn't believe in God his problems with God immediately cease to be problems...

Sorry I startled you...:rolleyes:

Húrin

robindch wrote: »

It will certainly seem this way if you don't understand natural selection.

I might be wrong, but you don't think that those who are the fittest, strongest and most adaptable are always the most righteous do you? How can animals be moral?

Turtwig

Húrin wrote: »

I might be wrong, but you don't think that those who are the fittest, strongest and most adaptable are always the most righteous do you? How can animals be moral?

No, like rob, I don't think you understand the subtleness of natural selection.
Animals are by their nature somewhat moral -there is lots of scientific evidence that shows us this.

Malty_T wrote:

....

Let's be cruel to animals (or more specificially lab rats) for a second. Imagine the following scenario:
A lab rat is suspended in the air by a rope it screeches and wails loudly in discomfort. What happens next? Another fellow rat helps his pal out by raising a platform so the rat on the rope is comforted.

Scenario 2.
There a seven monkeys who are all trained in pulling a cord to get food.
Each time one of a selected group of six monkey pulls on cord A that monkey receives a small minute bit of food but induces a shock in Monkey 7. If the monkey pulls on cord B they will receive food but not shock Monkey 7. Eventually all Monkeys begin by pulling cord A. Monkeys 1-4 quickly realise that pulling Cord B is better. Monkey 5 goes one further by abstaining from both cords for 5 days, and Monkey 6 goes even further again by abstaining from cord pulling for 12 days! - The monkeys starve themselves so they that they don't cause Monkey 7 to be in pain.
...

There are tons of other examples, but I'm lazy to post newer ones

Phototoxin

Oh I don't think so... If he didn't believe in God his problems with God immediately cease to be problems...

Sorry I startled you...

is not that easy.. I think something 'bigger' created the world as it would otherwise function more or less perfectly were it not for some people cocking it up... I mean we have the technolgies not to destroy the world and live happily yet greed damages it for example. And then I have a fiancee who has this supposedly wonderful deity who created it all and is good and kind and benovalent. however my recent experiences lead me to think that he mighn't be as kind and friendly as he's supposed to be.
The other night I had a rather preternatural experience which left me rather disturbed. Upon going to fetch some water I woke my fiancee (her room is beside the kitchen) and explained what happenend. She came up and prayed and it was nice and while I'd like to have her level of faith I don't think I can. Maybe I'm still angry at getting ill. I don't know really

Turtwig

Phototoxin wrote: »

is not that easy.. I think something 'bigger' created the world as it would otherwise function more or less perfectly were it not for some people cocking it up... I mean we have the technolgies not to destroy the world and live happily yet greed damages it for example. And then I have a fiancee who has this supposedly wonderful deity who created it all and is good and kind and benovalent. however my recent experiences lead me to think that he mighn't be as kind and friendly as he's supposed to be.
The other night I had a rather preternatural experience which left me rather disturbed. Upon going to fetch some water I woke my fiancee (her room is beside the kitchen) and explained what happenend. She came up and prayed and it was nice and while I'd like to have her level of faith I don't think I can. Maybe I'm still angry at getting ill. I don't know really

Do you blame your illness on God?
Everyone has a crisis sometime in their life, hang tough, keep the chin up and you'll get through it

Phototoxin

I more or less figure that life is probably more or less random as well whcih shows that what ever created it isn't actually interested in fairness

Turtwig

Phototoxin wrote: »

I more or less figure that life is probably more or less random as well whcih shows that what ever created it isn't actually interested in fairness

On what grounds are you making this assumption?

Phototoxin

random things happen random people... the rain falls equally on the believer and unbeliever so I don't see what's the 'benefit' in following said Xtn Deity

Turtwig

Phototoxin wrote: »

random things happen random people... the rain falls equally on the believer and unbeliever so I don't see what's the 'benefit' in following said Xtn Deity

Why should there be a benefit though, and more importantly what makes you think you deserved this benefit?
As I understand, is it not selfish to expect God to ,you know, do what you wish to be done? Why should He? Have you given Him any reason to do so?

*Note not a Christian, just being the advocate (can't really think of a more appropiate term and left out the 'd' word for obvious reasons -I'm not the devil though many would protest that I am:)*

Húrin

Malty_T wrote: »

No, like rob, I don't think you understand the subtleness of natural selection.

But how? Don't you think people do bad things to each other when competing for resources?

There are tons of other examples, but I'm lazy to post newer ones

It's not an animal experiment if it only happens in your imagination.

Turtwig

Húrin wrote: »

But how? Don't you think people do bad things to each other when competing for resources?
.

Don't you also think that it was our sense of right and wrong that gaves us a hugeeeeeeeeee advantage over our fellow animal relatives?

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

I might be wrong, but you don't think that those who are the fittest, strongest and most adaptable are always the most righteous do you? How can animals be moral?

While there are many common elements from culture to culture, the exact definition of "righteous" (or each culture's equivalent of the concept) is defined pretty much on a per-culture basis.

If you're wondering about sociability, trust and co-operation, then there are excellent reasons why natural selection will select in favour of these. In fact, it's one of the most mathematically well-understood areas in evolutionary biology and there's nothing mysterious about it at all. See this earlier post for some suggestions for further reading.

The philosopher (not biologist) Herbert Spencer's trite description of evolution as "the survival of the fittest" is inaccurate and quite unhelpful.

Phototoxin

Why should there be a benefit though, and more importantly what makes you think you deserved this benefit?
As I understand, is it not selfish to expect God to ,you know, do what you wish to be done? Why should He? Have you given Him any reason to do so?

*Note not a Christian, just being the advocate (can't really think of a more appropiate term and left out the 'd' word for obvious reasons -I'm not the devil though many would protest that I am*

Well generally there should be a benifit to worshipping a deity or otherwise one wouldnt do it... eg people worship Corny the corn god to give them crops, Sexy the sex god to give them kids or Khorne the blood god to help them defeat their foes. Generally for a reason. Although I do agree with the thought that a lot of pagan belief is based on fear ie i worship my god to get one over on your and your god who you worship to make my milk sour.

postcynical

Phototoxin wrote: »

I don't know.

Well the average churchgoer is the average church goer innit? They live the bible or whatever supposedly


[flippant] sodomising goats FTW! [/flippant]

Apologies if I came across as flippant. Good luck whatever path you choose.

Phototoxin

postcynical wrote: »

Apologies if I came across as flippant. Good luck whatever path you choose.

no I'm being flippiant... its a defensive thing I do.

TravelJunkie

Phototoxin wrote: »

Yes I am angry as any time I question for answers something bad happens.

I am angry that the default is damnation as I hardly think this is fair.

I don't think I'm angry at being ill anymore. Maybe I am I don't know.

I am angry at a lot of crap i read and see going on in the world and there is nothing practical we can do to stop it. I'd've thought ~5000 years of civilisation* would mean that we'd have a utopian society by now.


*CIVILISATION not HUMANS (not a young earth creationist)

I think you'd make a great christian one day. maybe God is waiting for you to channel all that energy towards him. You sound like a very passionate individual, He could use someone like you.
ps. I'm being sincere.