New Judo Rules

lukeyjudo

http://www.intjudo.eu/?Menu=News&Action=Full&type_id=1&id=284&lang_id=2&mid=4

New judo rules to be tested at the junior WC. I thought it was a joke when someone told me last week. To say I'm frustrated is an understatement, I really think this is too drastic a change.

Any opinions from judoka/grapplers?

Boston

Thats pretty poor.

dlofnep

It will discourage single and double legs.. But it does limit alot of techniques. I think it's bad for judo overall, but it will make judokas focus more on grips and throws than takedowns.

lukeyjudo

True, but whats wrong with takedowns?

Some of the most spectacular throws in judo are pick ups and takedowns! And now any form of drop kata guruma is gone as is sukui nage, the khaberrelli, many variations of sumi gaeshi, tani-o-toshi, ankle picks, I could go on...

One of my favourite things about judo is you can take any fighter from any grappling martial art/sport whatever and put him in a gi have a randori/roll and call it judo.

If those rules go through then it's just not judo anymore.

dlofnep

I don't think there is anything wrong with takedowns at all - But I do know that when I first started with Judo, I neglected grip-work and throws and instead kept focusing on ankle-picks and double legs.

Still - I think that everything should be available to the judoka. With this new rule - there might be a place in Ireland now for a wrestling circuit.

It's nonsense. Kata guruma has been in there since the start, it is true judo.

dlofnep

Maybe protest against it by using the said moves in competition?

judomick

i can see why they are doing it, for me there is nothing worse than watching a match were you see 2 judokas dicking about in jigotai, for fear of leg grabs etc, but i think they could have used other deterrents than banning below the belt grips ( that sounds weird).

i think if the new rule does keep players more upright it will increase the number of clean throws in a competition, which will keep the tv people happy.

i think its also a good thing that they will rely more on video replays, definately along time overdue

lukeyjudo

Video replays good. Discouraging jigotai good.

Wiping out techniques below the waist (yes it does sound weird) bad! Surely they can find another less drastic way to make judoka fight more upright.

According to that it's half my repetoire gone tbh and if it does come through then I think I shall be taking my "illegal" throwing techniques elsewhere...

What I really dont get is, judo is a distilled version of many many different styles of jiu jitsu, Kano took the techniques that worked, made them safe, made his syllabus and called it judo. Further on down the line when the Russians started fighting judo and winning in devastating fashion their techniques were adopted into the judo syllabus, and their leg grabs etc became legitimate practiced techniques. On the opposite side of that the only techniques that were taken out of the syllabus were the ones considerede too dangerous i.e kani basami. This rule change is a step backwards, rather than incorporate the winning/strong techniques as judo used to it's just banning them outright.

I can't help but feel like this rule change is just like the kid who's losing at football and threatens to bring his football home unless you play by his retarded rules.

Richie_Gorey

Ya it's really stupid, it's just limiting the sport. It's such a hugely drastic change aswell. It's going to take a lot from the game.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I can't really add awhole lot at this early stage to whats been posted here.

But I will say that this change may well put Judo into its death throes as it appears to have been done ham fisted and without any real consultation.

Also the timing couldn't have been worse for those fighters (who use leg grabs as part of their game) preparing for the 2012 Olympics.

Would it not make sense to introduce such drastic changes after massive consultation first, and then immediately following an Olympic's?.

I haven't seen one positive opinion expressed anywhere for these rule changes.

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nobbo

Its pretty simple these changes will destroy judo. Numbers practising will drop all over the world because alot of people who do judo do it to further their ability in other martial arts which incorporate the banned moves..

arybvtcw0eolkf

YouTube - Jimmy Pedro and Rhadi Ferguson talk about new IJF Rules..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IG4Au-3A0s

More discussion from Jimmy Pedro and Rhadi Ferguson on Judoforum.com

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Boston

Question, is this likely to filter down to training? Or will it just mean less people doing judo competitively? Will the Irish Judo IJA automatically bring in any rules put forward by the IJF?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Boston wrote: »

Question, is this likely to filter down to training? Or will it just mean less people doing judo competitively? Will the Irish Judo IJA automatically bring in any rules put forward by the IJF?

The IJA will bring in rules put forward by the IJF.

This won't mean a whole lot to you or me, or not in a disadvataged way at least as we're both tall Judoka and leg grabs aren't likely to be a huge part of our game.

Plus its only an initial leg grab attack they want to make illegal, a follow through is still be completely legal. Smaller Judoka will be at a huge disadvantage fighting taller guys like you and I now.

This goes right against Kano's original idea that a smaller fighter should be able to beat a bigger fighter, in fact so far as I recall (and my Kodokan book is at home) the Kata Guruma was one of Kano's first techniques - reinventing Judo now?.

I could be selfish and say that it doesn't really bother me too much, but I'm neither selfish 'nor narrow minded enough to ignore the fact this this rule change is NOT good for Judo.

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Boston

It kind of weakens the sport as being good for self defence as well though. If you never have to protect yourself from a left grab you never learn how to. Personally, I use single and double leg grabs because my opponents never expecting a big guy to go down.

judomick

Boston wrote: »

Personally, I use single and double leg grabs because my opponents never expecting a big guy to go down.

whats with the double entendre in this thread?

Sitric

Have any of you heard how ref's are being instructed to apply this? Is it just an initial leg grab that's banned as Makikomi says (Though I would disagree with banning even this) or "All techniques below the belt line will not be allowed anymore" as it says on the IJF website?

For example, can you take a lapel grip and then a leg?

I think this is an extremely bad move for judo.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sitric wrote: »

Have any of you heard how ref's are being instructed to apply this? Is it just an initial leg grab that's banned as Makikomi says (Though I would disagree with banning even this) or "All techniques below the belt line will not be allowed anymore" as it says on the IJF website?

For example, can you take a lapel grip and then a leg?

I think this is an extremely bad move for judo.

I think most people's interpritation of the ruling mean's that its just the initial attack is banned, personally this favours my game but I still disagree with the ruling.

The ruling should mean more of this type of Judo;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dygKP-25WLs

But without the beautiful Kata Guruma at the end of the clip.

And less of this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUsKrArxyOg

The aim of the IJF is to get back to pure Judo and away from the wrestling, but at what expense?.

There is some great debate on sherdog and judoforum if you have the time to follow 'em there. In the mean time I'd like to see Judomad enter this discussion as this ruling will effect his style of Judo more than my own.

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Richie_Gorey

Lisa Mealy Revolt wrote: »

I think most people's interpritation of the ruling mean's that its just the initial attack is banned, personally this favours my game but I still disagree with the ruling.



But without the beautiful Kata Guruma at the end of the clip.


The aim of the IJF is to get back to pure Judo and away from the wrestling, but at what expense?.

There is some great debate on sherdog and judoforum if you have the time to follow 'em there. In the mean time I'd like to see Judomad enter this discussion as this ruling will effect his style of Judo more than my own.

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Well you can do loads of kata garuma variencies without putting your hand on leg. Similarily, you can do heaps of pick ups without touching the legs. And there are lots of 'shoot' techniques still allowed that don't involve touching the legs. Its not as limiting really as you would initially think. And it will probably force people to be more ambitious and more pleasurable to watch.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Richie_Gorey wrote: »

Well you can do loads of kata garuma variencies without putting your hand on leg. Similarily, you can do heaps of pick ups without touching the legs. And there are lots of 'shoot' techniques still allowed that don't involve touching the legs. Its not as limiting really as you would initially think. And it will probably force people to be more ambitious and more pleasurable to watch.

The more I'm thinking and reading about it Richie I'm thinking that there's probably been a huge knee jerk reaction to this rule change.

However people who've built their Judo around throws like morote-gari, sukui-nage (t-guruma), and kata-guruma are going to find this hard to swallow, especially serious competition players - I'm thinking also those Judoka who are looking towards the 2012 olympics.

Tbh, their not techniques I can use comfortably and even hate practicing them.

I've even heard it muted that ura-nage will be taken out of competition soon also.

"And it will probably force people to be more ambitious and more pleasurable to watch." I agree with this.

Gorman

Was Kano himself not the one to add these takedowns?

I'm sure he didn't base his decision on whether or not it was entertaining. If a technique is dangerous I can understand removing it, but just because it doesn't look good on tv is not a reason.

However I suspect that it has more to do with politics, certain nations/individuals have probably been too successful with these techniques.

I don't understand why these techniques are not "pure judo", "pure judo" are all the techniques that Kano decided where judo, that includes doubles,singles and firemans and even leglocks.

This is bad for judo as the future generations will be lesser grapplers. No point in even learning to defend these techniques as you wont see then in competition.

Richie_Gorey

However people who've built their Judo around throws like morote-gari, sukui-nage (t-guruma), and kata-guruma are going to find this hard to swallow, especially serious competition players - I'm thinking also those Judoka who are looking towards the 2012 olympics _ Makikomi


Well i'd ideally do sukui-nage with no hands on legs. And that Welsh lad Richard Nash does all his morote garis(his toku-waza) without touching the legs, the people who'll miss that the most are the less technical anyway.

As for the ura-nage been disallowed i can't imagine why? No pick ups going backwards probably is it?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Richie_Gorey wrote: »

As for the ura-nage been disallowed i can't imagine why? No pick ups going backwards probably is it?

I can't confirm this one, I haven't seen it posted anywhere and just heard it in one of the clubs I train.

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pablohoney87

Does anyone else think that this ruling will effect many of the eastern european judoka more than the likes of the koreans?

arybvtcw0eolkf

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Does anyone else think that this ruling will effect many of the eastern european judoka more than the likes of the koreans?

It certainly will.

It'll also have a huge effect on the smaller guys fighting in the open weight categories as I can see its going to present huge problems in terms of grips when faced with a larger, taller fighter.

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Sitric

What about counters? It's gotta be one of the most common counters to a big leg throw to grab leg and do a pick up?

Also maybe a little ironic to look at the photos on the IJF site from the worlds, quite a number of leg grips

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sitric wrote: »

What about counters? It's gotta be one of the most common counters to a big leg throw to grab leg and do a pick up?

Also maybe a little ironic to look at the photos on the IJF site from the worlds, quite a number of leg grips

My understanding of it is that grabbing the leg as a counter will also be illegal (if the rule is implimented - we have to stress this as its not confirmed beyond the world juniors).

If its carried, well coaches and fighter's will just have to adapt their game to the new rules & Judo will evolve in a different direction - its clear that someone in the IJF didn't like the move towards wrestling so we'll probably have to wait and see where this goes.

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Gorman

Lisa Mealy Revolt wrote: »

its clear that someone in the IJF didn't like the move towards wrestling so we'll probably have to wait and see where this goes.

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this is what I don't understand, what makes these moves wrestling? they have been in judo from the beginning.
why is there the sentiment that these moves are less judo than others. It doesn't make sense to me.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Just to make a liar of myself, I have used a double leg attack to win a fight!.

Found this in my files this morning, its from a time when I was 'Mairt' here and not a Mod..



Sorry I can't find the original photos made to make up the poster.

:P

just-joe

A useful link that demonstrates what is and is not allowed with the new rules:

http://217.79.182.227/intranet.ijf.org/ijf_video.php?show=8&size=medium

Sid_Justice

Are these new rules going to be used in the next intervarsites joe?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Are these new rules going to be used in the next intervarsites joe?

So far as I know they're to be used in all competitions from now on.

Keith Gough and Ray Stears ran us through some of them during the week, and tbh if I were you I'd be paying a visit to a club where the coaches are going through the details of the rule changes because its a nightmare!.

My understanding so far is that any violation of the new rules will result in an immediate Hansoku-make.

Sid_Justice

with the new judo rules I basically have no game so I think I'm going to officially retire from Judo competition and just do Judo in BJJ tournaments. Otherwise, I'll have to learn some proper Judo.

Boston

Lisa Mealy Revolt wrote: »

So far as I know they're to be used in all competitions from now on.

Keith Gough and Ray Stears ran us through some of them during the week, and tbh if I were you I'd be paying a visit to a club where the coaches are going through the details of the rule changes because its a nightmare!.

My understanding so far is that any violation of the new rules will result in an immediate Hansoku-make.

Irish IVs aren't run in association with the IJA. So maybe, maybe not.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

with the new judo rules I basically have no game so I think I'm going to officially retire from Judo competition and just do Judo in BJJ tournaments. Otherwise, I'll have to learn some proper Judo.

Well obviously I'd encourage you to continue with your Judo training, at least get your black belt before retiring from it.

Doug Cartel

I don't like the idea of putting in any extra rules unless they're there for safety. I think with any physical game, if you can't describe the rules in a few short sentences you're going to run into problems.

What I really don't like about this rule change is the ambiguity combined with the harsh penalty for getting things wrong. I *think* I understand this rule, and I got *most* of the videos, but there were a few that I didn't get. Given that the penalty is being kicked out of the tournament, I'm not going to chance going anywhere near somebody's legs until I'm 100% on what the ref's call is going to be.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I
What I really don't like about this rule change is the ambiguity combined with the harsh penalty for getting things wrong. I *think* I understand this rule, and I got *most* of the videos, but there were a few that I didn't get. Given that the penalty is being kicked out of the tournament, I'm not going to chance going anywhere near somebody's legs until I'm 100% on what the ref's call is going to be.

To further complicate matter's, if my understanding of it is correct, is tori can initiate an attack (Kouchi Gari for example) then grab uke's leg, however uke can not grab a leg in his/her defence until tori makes body contact!.

So I as tori puts a leg across uke's body uke can not grab that leg until I make body contact - by which time I should have had uki's kuzushi balance and be well on my way to a beautiful ippon anyway (I wish)!.

Tori - Person performing a technique.
Uke - Person receiving a technique.
Kuzushi - balance or unbalancing the opponent.

**Just a note Doug**

The explainations above are obviously not for your benefit, but as a way of making the forum a little more user friendly some of us are going to put in these small techincal explainations.

Sid_Justice

One of my assumptions was you can't grab the leg and then go for a trip, but you can trip the leg and then grab it (bring the leg to your hand with your foot so to speak). Is that correct?

this is pretty much what happens here (this is in the green/allowed section)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs__5hh8TpI

Doug Cartel

To further complicate matter's, if my understanding of it is correct, is tori can initiate an attack (Kouchi Gari for example) then grab uke's leg, however uke can not grab a leg in his/her defence until tori makes body contact!.

So I as tori puts a leg across uke's body uke can not grab that leg until I make body contact - by which time I should have had uki's kuzushi balance and be well on my way to a beautiful ippon anyway (I wish)!.

Are you sure about that?

(As if anyone is sure of anything with these rules)

**Just a note Doug**

The explainations above are obviously not for your benefit, but as a way of making the forum a little more user friendly some of us are going to put in these small techincal explainations.

No worries, I figured as much.

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

One of my assumptions was you can't grab the leg and then go for a trip, but you can trip the leg and then grab it (bring the leg to your hand with your foot so to speak). Is that correct?

this is pretty much what happens here (this is in the green/allowed section)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs__5hh8TpI

Yeah that's my understanding of it.

What I'm not sure of is if simply catching the foot with my own foot before diving down to do a Kuchiki Taoshi is enough, or do I really need to go for it with the initial attack, say an Ouchi Gari.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

Nope

There was a lot of confusion, but thats how I understood it to mean.

And thanks for linking the techniques!.

Pingu

Boston wrote: »

Irish IVs aren't run in association with the IJA. So maybe, maybe not.

It's not the IJA that brought them in, it's a worldwide thing. They'll be in use in the Intervarsitites as they're the current rules.

Boston

Sid_Justice wrote: »

One of my assumptions was you can't grab the leg and then go for a trip, but you can trip the leg and then grab it (bring the leg to your hand with your foot so to speak). Is that correct?

this is pretty much what happens here (this is in the green/allowed section)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs__5hh8TpI

Thats what people have been saying, however the rules as I've seen them presented said you can't grab anything below the waist. Maybe it was an oversight and they meant you can't initiate anything below the waist.

Doug Cartel

Boston wrote: »

Thats what people have been saying, however the rules as I've seen them presented said you can't grab anything below the waist. Maybe it was an oversight and they meant you can't initiate anything below the waist.

Have you read the pdf at the bottom of the page just-joe posted?
http://217.79.182.227/intranet.ijf.org/download/IJF_NEW_RULES_GB.pdf

Jason Mc

How do these rules compare to greco rules? They aren't allowed to touch the legs either as far as I'm aware.


I would be in the camp of people who would oppose these rules and never got the camp that call these "ugly judo"

Boston

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Have you read the pdf at the bottom of the page just-joe posted?
http://217.79.182.227/intranet.ijf.org/download/IJF_NEW_RULES_GB.pdf

Tbh, I'm looking at two pictures in that Pdf, one of when a leg grab is ok and the other of when it is not. I can't see the difference.

just-joe

I had thought that in the first few competitions when these were brought in, you got a free shido the first time you you broke the rule, and then hansoku-make. But from those pics it does seem its disqualification straight away.. not cool.

I presume they will be enforced at the IVs, as the competition will be refereed by refs following IJF rules. At the start of the day they usually clarify rule changes at the captains meeting. I'd say they will be lenient though given the standard of the competition (ie hopefully a warning first then whatever follows.)

As for what the rules actually mean, I think you just have to use your hands after attacking with your legs first. This is a bit hazy when it comes to ko-uchi-makikomi though as the intention is to use your hands. In regards to leg-grabbing as a defence (that Makikomi mentioned) I'm not sure though, so I'm going to look at those videos again though and will comment after. Also, you can't grab the legs in any way for kata-guruma. Some of the variations from two sleeves look quite cool though?!

just-joe

Just watched them again, and read the PDF, and yeah what Makikomi said seems to be correct - if being attacked there must be body contact before you can go for the legs.. which is crap cos you might not have a chance once that happens!

Also, a few of the videos seem to disregard the fact that apparently you can leg grab if you're in the cross guard position (no. 46 and 49?)

And in no. 57 he seems to sweep with his foot for ko-uchi and then use hands, but this is hansoku-make..

So yeah it is kinda hard to understand all the different situations and combinations.. alot of trouble for the referees if anything!

lukeyjudo

just-joe wrote: »

So yeah it is kinda hard to understand all the different situations and combinations.. alot of trouble for the referees if anything!

Yeah a lot of trouble for ref's alright but they're also bringing in video cameras in some tournaments! THANK GOD!! Ive seen and had some ridiculous decisions made against me and video reffing is the way forward.

On another note these rules are on a trial basis until the end of 2012... so if they bring back leg grabs the Russians will just dominate again because no international player (myself included) is going to train leg grabs anymore if your going to be disqualified... all the while the crafty Russians are practicing sambo and wrestling leg grabs which lets face it are extremely effective! Thats why Ive used them for years to great effect in contest!

I'm having mixed feelings at the moment about the rule changes because my three favourite styles of judo in no particular order is Russian, Japanese and French. The French and Japanese will love this the Russians will fall by the wayside, classical stand up judo is just alien to them. I predict a lot of Western Europe, Japan and America will come through and start winning Golds in the WC's and Olympics (for a change).

Anyway it'll make for more exciting Judo (fingers crossed) but Im still going to pratice and train my firemans and double and single legs... least not in Judo

just-joe

lukeyjudo wrote: »

Yeah a lot of trouble for ref's alright but they're also bringing in video cameras in some tournaments! THANK GOD!! Ive seen and had some ridiculous decisions made against me and video reffing is the way forward.

Well this will only be for major competitions/internationals so won't affect anyone in Ireland..

lukeyjudo wrote: »

I predict a lot of Western Europe, Japan and America will come through and start winning Golds in the WC's and Olympics (for a change).

Don't know if you've been watchin the olympics/world champs/grand slams in the last while but Japan have been dominating the whole time (try 8 golds of 14 at the junior worlds, and 11 golds of 14 at the Tokyo Grand Slam) so there is no return to form for the Japanese... I guess the rules will just further push out the Russian/Eastern European judoka and make it hard/impossible for them to use their most effective techniques.