why do i bother playing nice ?

LegacyUser

So basically,

Right so. About 7 years back I lost someone I really cared about I had a moment of realisation that when it came to relationships stuff i was probably a bit self-involved, selfish and at times an outright bastard. It kinda forced me to think hard about alot of thigns. Anyhow I spent a bit of time deliberatley single sort of sorting myself out - reengineering my attitude sort of thing and then tried dating again.

Since then I've been used, abused, lied to, taken for granted in ever multiplying and diverse ways. I'm not niaive, I'm not stupid, and I don't let people away with serious things without challenging it, yet still I end up being used and abused and watching the people I like go off with someone else.

Well I've had enough. And I have to say I'm asking myself why do I bother. I mean I kind of prefer myself in the nicer version, but after 7 years I can say it just doens't work and I'm considered a return to being not so nice. For some strange and bizarre reason, gorgeous women have been throwing themselves at me lately. So far I've not done anything cause I've been reeling from my latest bout of being taken for granted. Thats me continuing to be nice and I know I won't get over this one for a LONNNGGGG time, if ever.

But seriously I'm asking myself, well why shouldn't I be a right player and unmitigating bastard here since I have opportunity ? And yes its either that or do nothing, cause i don't have capacity for actually really falling for someone currently

SarahSassy

ex-nice guy? wrote: »

But seriously I'm asking myself, well why shouldn't I be a right player and unmitigating bastard here since I have opportunity ?

Cos you have evolved beyond that....

LegacyUser

SarahSassy wrote: »

Cos you have evolved beyond that....

Yes you see I did. But then what happened next is akin to banging my head off a brick wall for like 5 years then wondering why I have a headache. Hmmm I'm thinking - stop banging my head off the brick wall.

Sorry my original post probably should have pointed out that I got treated with more respect by people when I was more inclined to being a bastard.

By the way I realise this is frivolous compared to many problems that get posted on here, but its really something I ponder about cos I can't take the way I've been treated anymore

Wibbs

Why throw the baby out with the bathwater though?

OK when you were being a git, you got more respect and now you're being overly nice you get walked on. When you were a git you looked like you had boundaries and stuck to them, even if they were daft as part of being a bastard. People respect boundaries. Women respect them too as many guys don't have them, but all too often they may mistake being a dick with being sure of yourself as a guy and having boundaries. Nowadays maybe you have very few boundaries in your pursuit of being "nice". Chances are you will be taken advantage of in that case and chances are women may treat you like a sap.

You've tried both sides so now go for the middle path(c) Buddha.Be nice, be polite, but work out what your healthy boundaries are and stick to them. If someone is being cool well be cool back, reward that behaviour. Don't try to bribe people men or women with just being nice. If someone treats you with disrespect, punish this behaviour and point this out in a calm fashion and if they repeat it scrape them off in no uncertain terms.

LegacyUser

Well see thats what I'm saying. I don't think I am being too nice. I can and do pull people up on things. I'm not gonna go into details here but whenever i do go into the details with people they seem to be of the opinion - well your not doing anything wrong and when i take advise people tend to tell me that i'm taking the right and fair actions etc. And at times I do put the foot down and say enough of that. Like I said I like the person I am. Nice is probably a bad word by the way - lets consider as short hand for honest and fair. Bascially what I'm being reluctantly forced by experience into concluding is that nice guys really do finish last and if I want to stop being in that position I'd be better off in general just being that little bit ruthless and mean from time to time

VaioCruiser

ex-nice guy? wrote: »

But seriously I'm asking myself, well why shouldn't I be a right player and unmitigating bastard here since I have opportunity ? And yes its either that or do nothing, cause i don't have capacity for actually really falling for someone currently

So you've been hurt and now you think that lashing out and planning to be a cold hearted ba*tard is the solution.

Wrong.

You need to try to evolve into a reasonable and common sensible person who understands the subtleties of being both tough and soft, firm but flexible, demanding and cooperating.

Some maturity and a deeper understanding of human nature and how to get on with people might also be a big help.

All the best

Wibbs

ex-nice guy? wrote: »

Well see thats what I'm saying. I don't think I am being too nice. I can and do pull people up on things. I'm not gonna go into details here but whenever i do go into the details with people they seem to be of the opinion - well your not doing anything wrong and when i take advise people tend to tell me that i'm taking the right and fair actions etc. And at times I do put the foot down and say enough of that. Like I said I like the person I am. Nice is probably a bad word by the way - lets consider as short hand for honest and fair. Bascially what I'm being reluctantly forced by experience into concluding is that nice guys really do finish last and if I want to stop being in that position I'd be better off in general just being that little bit ruthless and mean from time to time

Gotcha. I went through a similar phase and I'll be honest and say in my humble it did seem to work better, especially with women. More attention and less hassle. That said it wasn't me and I didn't like the me I was becoming or the people I was attracting. So I figured I would rather get the right sort of attention from the right sort of people and women for me. Took a while with a lot of glitches and back and forth along the way. And even recently enough I was in the middle of the muddle as it were.

As I say I figure I'll just be me, try to be OK most of the time and try to improve in the areas were I'm not OK. If people want to be around fine, if not equally fine and no real reflection on them either.

Wibbs

PS you should also remember that there are a lot of muppets out there of both sexes. There seems to be a lot of self protection going on too. You don't tend to notice that when you're being a bastard as your emotional involvement is lacking. I didn't anyway. When you do engage emotionally I think you see more of what you have to lose and you see more of the frailties of others and yourself. I suppose the old chestnut, you never get hurt if you never fall for anyone.

LegacyUser

VaioCruiser wrote: »

So you've been hurt and now you think that lashing out and planning to be a cold hearted ba*tard is the solution.

Wrong.

You need to try to evolve into a reasonable and common sensible person who understands the subtleties of being both tough and soft, firm but flexible, demanding and cooperating.

Some maturity and a deeper understanding of human nature and how to get on with people might also be a big help.

All the best

Vaio did you actually read the rest of what i posted or just that one sentence before pontificating about maturity and a deeper understanding of human nature and how to get on with people?


Wibbs in truth I have been asking myself this question for 2/3 years now. Up until now I took the approach you are suggesting. I have made friends with new genuinely nice people. U know what - same **** has been happening.

Nevyn

So you were a bastard and then you were a doormat.
How about aiming for something in the middle?

You can have to be not selfish but yet selfish at the same time in a relationship
and it can be tricky balance esp if the other person is a taker.
You have to learn to stand up for yourself and yet comprimise in a healthy way.

Well done on making such a big change from when you were a bastard,
shame you went too far the other way but maybe you learned how far not
to go and once you figure it out you can find a way to use the best of both
and be happy, cos you can't change anyone but yourself.

VaioCruiser

ex-nice guy? wrote: »

Vaio did you actually read the rest of what i posted or just that one sentence before pontificating about maturity and a deeper understanding of human nature and how to get on with people?

Actually yes, I always read what I am replying to. It helps me compose as thorough and accurate reply as I can, which I did.

Wibbs

Well I know for me it was a perception thing at least half the time. I expected an outcome or gratitude or whatever and then got the hump when I didn't get it. When I was a git, I expected bugger all so disappointment was lower I suppose. Now I take on board some of the git, in that I don't expect anything as such. If I want to give my time or help I give it because I want to. I have found that most people most of the time are quite self centered on how they feel, what they need. Not selfish, just looking out for number one or focused on their own stuff and don't tend to look outwards unless it's impacting them positively or negatively. I don't look at this cynically, I just accept that this is often the case.

The other half of the time it was just a case of shít just happens really.

LegacyUser

o how many times/ways do you want me to say it - NOT a doormat.

Vaio, u clearly didn't listen to all I said then. Thank you I don't really want anymore advise from you. bye bye

Taltos

I'm a bit confused here - not really sure what is going on with the OP and V as V's comments all seem reasonable to me.

OP - you say all these gorgeous women are throwing themselves at you - so why not just try to have some fun without analyzing it too much or reading into what type of person they are?
Why not just spend some time getting to know them and letting them get to know you before rushing into anything?
It is too easy to get caught up in the heady feelings of sex etc and not get to see the real person. So maybe just take your time - go out and do fun stuff - and when you get that feeling that they are not right - move on.
At least this way you will not have invested too much of yourself.

Sometimes taking the time to get the know the person first is much better that being 7mts down the line trying to figure out what you had in common in the first place.

Fair dues though for taking a step back from being the player type - there is a happy medium - but sometime you just need to find the right person to click with. Maybe just try to see these women as people - not as either someone for you to mess about or a b1tch to mess with your head - if you know what I mean? Making a mess of this, I guess I am trying to say maybe just focus on developing the friendship and getting to know the person before jumping into bed or rushing out with flowers for them.

LegacyUser

Taltos wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here - not really sure what is going on with the OP and V as V's comments all seem reasonable to me.

OP - you say all these gorgeous women are throwing themselves at you - so why not just try to have some fun without analyzing it too much or reading into what type of person they are?
Why not just spend some time getting to know them and letting them get to know you before rushing into anything?
It is too easy to get caught up in the heady feelings of sex etc and not get to see the real person. So maybe just take your time - go out and do fun stuff - and when you get that feeling that they are not right - move on.
At least this way you will not have invested too much of yourself.

Sometimes taking the time to get the know the person first is much better that being 7mts down the line trying to figure out what you had in common in the first place.

Fair dues though for taking a step back from being the player type - there is a happy medium - but sometime you just need to find the right person to click with. Maybe just try to see these women as people - not as either someone for you to mess about or a b1tch to mess with your head - if you know what I mean? Making a mess of this, I guess I am trying to say maybe just focus on developing the friendship and getting to know the person before jumping into bed or rushing out with flowers for them.

Thx for your input T. But been there done that. And i must say - I never mentioned the word sex, I'm not talking about that. And I don't view these things in those terms at all. It is very much my modus operandi to get to know someone and seeing how i get on before thinking abuot physical stuff. I also very much do not typecast people

By the way my comment about gorgeous women throwing themselves at me was tonuge in cheek. but i have options was the point.


but what i'm saying is i like being who i am. but it leaves me getting used and abused and i can't deal with that anymore. so i see two options either give up completely or just be a bit of a player and not put myself in position to be used and abused.

Skapoot

Women have this problem where they keep on getting treated like **** boyfriend after boyfriend. Every time. And they start going "why are all men dickheads"!!


I know you're not like that btw! Im just sure you know the type of women yeah??

Well the problem generally isnt with the men. Its because the women keep on picking people who are blatantly dickheads and are going to treat them like ****.

Im not sure exactly if this is the same problem with you, but I'd suggest that you keep your eyes peeled for a genuine girl. And dont go for someone just because of the "chemistry". Get to know someone outside of whatever type you usually go for.;)

Virgil°

It could be a case OP of still going for the same type of girl. When you were being a twat you obviously attracted the type of girl that would stay with a twat. These are the exact type of girls that will wreck the heads of geniune guys, which you claim you are at the moment.
Maybe try going for a lass that you wouldn't normally go for?

LegacyUser

Skapoot wrote: »

Women have this problem where they keep on getting treated like **** boyfriend after boyfriend. Every time. And they start going "why are all men dickheads"!!


I know you're not like that btw! Im just sure you know the type of women yeah??

Well the problem generally isnt with the men. Its because the women keep on picking people who are blatantly dickheads and are going to treat them like ****.

Im not sure exactly if this is the same problem with you, but I'd suggest that you keep your eyes peeled for a genuine girl. And dont go for someone just because of the "chemistry". Get to know someone outside of whatever type you usually go for.;)

well see thats what i thought i was doing. but it just seems to get worse instead of better. Let me say too my friends who know my history tell me i'm doing the right things, i've just been unlucky. but i have to say sometimes i just feel as though i'm one of those people who are destined to lead just always be single. frankly i recently went thru a period of considering to consciously decide to be single forever so that at least i might focus on my career or whatever. but i've hit a whole other level of cynicism and being selfish seems better than that.

LegacyUser

Virgil° wrote: »

It could be a case OP of still going for the same type of girl. When you were being a twat you obviously attracted the type of girl that would stay with a twat. These are the exact type of girls that will wreck the heads of geniune guys, which you claim you are at the moment.
Maybe try going for a lass that you wouldn't normally go for?

I was fairly indiscriminate when a twat. some were selifish but i didn't care cause i usually saw it coming and didn't care to begin with anyhow. others were nice but i really had no lasting interest for one reason or another.

Skapoot

Yeah I guess a period of being single would definitely get this weight of stress off you. Cos right now your personal life seems to be going ****.


If you feel like time off, Go for it. Consciously take a year off from dating. Maybe you'll have a whole new perspective on the dating world, and on girls after that length of time.

Maybe instead of looking for someone to go out with you'll just make a lot of female friends, and without any pressure, you genuinely get to see what kind of people they are.

LegacyUser

Skapoot wrote: »

Yeah I guess a period of being single would definitely get this weight of stress off you. Cos right now your personal life seems to be going ****.


If you feel like time off, Go for it. Consciously take a year off from dating. Maybe you'll have a whole new perspective on the dating world, and on girls after that length of time.

Maybe instead of looking for someone to go out with you'll just make a lot of female friends, and without any pressure, you genuinely get to see what kind of people they are.

well thx for the suggestion but i have done that on several occasions including the last little while. I'm not one who believes in dating for the sake of it. like i said have options but have been consciously not taking them til now as i don't want to be a twat. but being a twat is starting to look like the only viable option left

Gholimoli

Hi Op,
It think the whole problem has to do with your how human nature is really.
Human nature is designed to want something it can’t have.
It’s simple really.the more something is out of your reach the more you want it.
The more you have something, the more you take it for granted.
In terms of relationships, as Wibbs mentioned, if you have no boundaries, then you are allowing full access to your self and you lose your novelty, or the element of inaccessibility.
In works both ways.im sure you have found your self in a situation where you want the girl that seems to pay less attention to you, more than the girl that throws her self all over you.
Now the tricky part is the balance between these two.
I don’t think I can say better than Wibbs, essentially you gotta have boundaries man.
A lot more to start off with but obv you can loosen up as you get to know them better but you always have to keep some boundaries or else its human nature to take it for granted.

What is wrongly known as “those who play games seem to do better “ is no more than this IMHO.
You may think it’s wrong or why it has to be this way. The fact remains that it is. You can acknowledge it, and build it with in your being or else try and fight it and be angry at why it has to be this way.
That is your choice.

metrovelvet

The more selfish you are the less of a chance you ever have of feeling betrayed.

When you are not being a git, there is risk involved, the risk of getting screwed over, or at least the feeling/perception of it, because you have not acted pathologically selfish and perhaps your expectations have shifted.

But there is a gap between not getting what you want or expect and being used and abused.

Perhaps you need to adjust your selection process on the people you choose to be with.

LegacyUser

thanks for all the input, i was thinking about it.
wibbs i especially found some of your comments insightful.

anyhow something interesting happened. I'm about 30. Purely by chance most of the people I've liked last few years have been about 5,6,7 years younger than me. Last night with one of these possibility ladies who is actually about my age, i had an open mini-chat. What I was struck by was feeling like I was talking to a mature person in comparison to my experiences of the last few years. topics potentially drama filled came up but we had no issues. And I'm suddenly struck that maybe the last few years have been filled with nice, but immature people. In other words decent people, but who just didn't have experience yet to realise they weren't acting very decent at times (I mean I certainly would operate by a different definition of decent than I did 5 years ago).

What do people think ? Is there a big difference in this kind of thing from early-mid twenties and 30 ? could this be the problem ?

Taltos

Jeez talk about generalities

That's a tough one to answer. But just to annoy everyone I would have to agree with you.
Looking back at how I was compared to many of my friends when I was in my twenties I would have to say that yes - alot of them were just not mature enough to know what they wanted or to have any real idea how to behave around other people.

Some of us were a bit different though. In my case I had always been in the company of much older folk - so I would hope that I was ahead of the curve, but again I was brought up in a strict house where the key lesson was "treat others as you want to be treated" - so that whole game thing is just beyond my capabilities. Other friends of mine though - who I just met up with after a 10 yr gap just have not changed at all, ie still single, still playing - but despite this appear happy, and I really hope they are.

So - Yes and No I am afraid.
It might all just come back to they people you are surrounding yourself with - either intentionally or through just how you behave. And lets face it, it is sometimes really really hard to change those things about yourself that you are not even aware of, but that can draw these types of people.

Maybe try to hold back on putting people into buckets, but also maybe hold back a bit of yourself as well until you are confident with their friendship and trust them. Life's too short to be 2nd guessing if everyone has an agenda, yup you might get burnt, but if you just take people as you see them and don't waste time with the ones who prove to be fools then you stand a good chance of attracting the right type of people.
Maybe I am not wording this too well - but if folk see that you have a tight group of friends and they are all stand-up people they will hopefully see that you are too and treat you with the respect you deserve.
(gawd not sure if I am making sense now or babbling from caffeine withdrawls)

Ivor_Schlong

women love the badboy till she gets pregnant and beaten up by him

LegacyUser

ex-nice guy? wrote: »

thanks for all the input, i was thinking about it.
wibbs i especially found some of your comments insightful.

anyhow something interesting happened. I'm about 30. Purely by chance most of the people I've liked last few years have been about 5,6,7 years younger than me. Last night with one of these possibility ladies who is actually about my age, i had an open mini-chat. What I was struck by was feeling like I was talking to a mature person in comparison to my experiences of the last few years. topics potentially drama filled came up but we had no issues. And I'm suddenly struck that maybe the last few years have been filled with nice, but immature people. In other words decent people, but who just didn't have experience yet to realise they weren't acting very decent at times (I mean I certainly would operate by a different definition of decent than I did 5 years ago).

What do people think ? Is there a big difference in this kind of thing from early-mid twenties and 30 ? could this be the problem ?

If you're looking for a long term relationship, it's possible that the girls who are 5,6,7 years younger don't want that. Maybe that's why they're skittish and not appreciative of what you're offering. I know I wouldn't have been appreciative when I was that age myself, and it was generally down to the fact that I hadn't a clue what I wanted or needed! That's not to say that all 24/25 year olds are like that, just my own experience of what I was like at that age.

You say you were talking to a lady who seemed nice last night....please tell me you got her number?!!

LauraLoo

you jumped from one extreme to the other
try to find the middle way

LegacyUser

You have simply chosen the wrong people (or type of people..)

Respect yourself .. stay nice .. always be true to what YOU want to be like....

Best of luck...


Mind you reading some of your replies it appears that you are already an ex nice guy.......people are simply trying to help..dont throw that back at them

Dublin141

Protecting yourself by being an arsehole might save you from a bit of heartache every now and then but it won't make you happy in the long run.

As far as the age difference goes, maybe you grew up a bit but the type of girl you went for didn't change. You grew older but still went for girls with the same level of maturity as you did five or ten years ago. Lots of people do that, they don't realize that they are changing, their tastes are changing and their needs are changing. There are lots of mature 20 somethings but maybe you weren't attracted to them and chatting to a mature lady felt like a relief because you didn't have to watch what you said as much - I'm guessing you knew a lot of girls who would over-react because you mentioned drama.

That's just my take on it.

NickNolte

There's not really much to be said. You're 30 and you're going out with women who (generally) haven't fully developed emotionally yet. Despite the ridiculous myth that 'women mature faster than men' the fact of the matter is that they mature differently. In modern times, it usually takes both sexes well into their late 20's/early 30's to mature to a level when they should even consider a serious relationship. Lose the self-protecting 'asshole' facade and find a woman your own age who knows what she wants in life. That way you get to continue being the decent person you want to be and you'll find someone who isn't emotionally retarded and who actually appreciates it... and won't that be nice?