does anyone out there still think there is a god ?

john west

lately i have been having trouble with my faith! i jsut dont see how all the bad things are happening in thtis world to innocent people if there was a god watching over them! im beginning to think my friend was rght about the whole Science thing! that we are an accident in science! and thats it!
it sadens me to think that when i or my loved ones die the only thing that will happen is we go 6 ft under and the bugs get us!
i dont think the church cares about people ! sure all they want is our money and keep the scandals quite!
i just hope if there is a god out there! he takes mercy on my sole!

orestes

Don't worry, cod will take care of your sole

PDN

orestes wrote: »

Don't worry, cod will take care of your sole

You think this is the right plaice for that kind of joke?

Fanny Cradock

john west wrote: »

lately i have been having trouble with my faith! i jsut dont see how all the bad things are happening in thtis world to innocent people if there was a god watching over them! im beginning to think my friend was rght about the whole Science thing! that we are an accident in science! and thats it!
it sadens me to think that when i or my loved ones die the only thing that will happen is we go 6 ft under and the bugs get us!
i dont think the church cares about people ! sure all they want is our money and keep the scandals quite!
i just hope if there is a god out there! he takes mercy on my sole!

If the existence of evil is transforming into a defeater to your belief in God ,I would suggest that you read or listen to some of the defences that try to address the problem in light of the Christian God. PM me if you want some ideas.

As for the science thing, I'm not sure what your friend means. It seems to me that that he is imposing his atheistic opinion on science. I could equally suggest that the extraordinarily improbable set of "finely tuned" conditions that lead to the universe existing as it does, and therefore hospitable for life, are compelling evidence in the opposite direction. Different strokes, I guess. Anyway, if you want to check out the views of scientists who would disagree with the opinion of your friend you may wish to pop along to the Faraday institute and check out some of their talks.

With regards to the "Church", what one are you talking about?

It may be like removing a drop from an ocean of tears, but the the church I attend is actively involved in inner-city projects that attempt to aid the poor and the vulnerable as well as those addicted to various substances - heroine etc., etc. They are also indirectly involved in providing aid and support (through association with an NGO) to disenfranchised people in Africa. I don't seem my church as being singular in this work, either.

Has the "Church" been guilty of sins? Yes, of course it has! But it seems to me that people have this worrying propensity to trade away 1000 good deeds for one bad. Please don't take my following words as me being bitchy, but I'm going to suggest to that you probably have little notion of the general good your local church does for the community or for strangers on the other side of the world.

Turtwig

Ok, firstly I must forewarn you, I am in no way a theistic person.

The argument about God and Science is two fold, really.
One is that the complexity of this universe could not have been achieved without a designer, the other is that because the universe is 'infinite' all possibilities will eventually be accomodated for and thus here we are, not really an accident though.

At present the argument can sway either way as the simple answer is that 'We simply do NOT know'
Why some people can't admit this I really don't know.

As for the materialistic view of there being no life after death, is it really that depressing? I mean, would you really want to exist forever? It'd get boring eventually I'd imagine.
One of the great 'natural' philosophers Democritus believed that all things were made up of eternal things called 'atoms' and that when we the die that atoms that make up our 'immortal' soul would scatter throughout nature to revive some other process e.g when you die your atoms will go to trees, air,the life of your child, the life of some unborn child etc etc
All nature is eternal, human beings are not.
It's a materialistic view, but it isn't necessarily depressing - to quote a great post from the A&A forum

Gurgle wrote:

You are responsible for your own actions, there is no God or Devil to blame, defer to or ask forgiveness from. You are responsible for your own morals, your own decisions, your own choices. Death is final, what you leave behind on earth is the sum of all that you do, so do it right.

It's your life, make the best sum that you can

prinz

If death is so final, what does it matter to you what you leave behind I never understood that attitude.

Goduznt Xzst

orestes wrote: »

Don't worry, cod will take care of your sole

It's fishful thinking to imagine their's a God. Ultimately, there's no porpoise for existence.

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

As for the materialistic view of there being no life after death, is it really that depressing? I mean, would you really want to exist forever? It'd get boring eventually I'd imagine.

I would say it's extremely depressing. If we cease to exist, it will be the same as if we had never been. We will never even know we had this experience. We will never know if we are missed or if we left something good behind. The only benefit in living a life of purpose is for a feeling of comfort/regret the moment before what makes you you is gone forever. Everything we all do would be just for nothing, as it would never make any difference, and no one will ever know the difference. For those left behind, their memory of the lost one in no way honors, or gives life to, the one who longer exists.
When you die, everything you experienced, the choices you made, the people you loved, etc, will all cease to exist. Our personal point of view is all that really matters, because it is the reason why we even have thoughts, preferences, opinions, cares worries, etc. We can be unselfish and die for someone else, but it's because we love the person, or think it's just the right thing to do. If you cease to exist, there is no comfort in knowing you did make a sacrifice. You may just have well done nothing at all. From your point of view, everything would cease to exist.

I would also argue that all we do know is eternal life. We can't imagine anything other than being alive. Living forever is not hard to grasp at all, to me. I can only think of living, and continuing to exist and have thoughts, for all eternity.

You say that would be boring? It's better than everything else existing, BUT you.

Turtwig

prinz wrote: »

If death is so final, what does it matter to you what you leave behind I never understood that attitude.

chozometroid wrote: »

I would say it's extremely depressing. If we cease to exist, it will be the same as if we had never been. We will never even know we had this experience. We will never know if we are missed or if we left something good behind. The only benefit in living a life of purpose is for a feeling of comfort/regret the moment before what makes you you is gone forever. Everything we all do would be just for nothing, as it would never make any difference, and no one will ever know the difference. For those left behind, their memory of the lost one in no way honors, or gives life to, the one who longer exists.
When you die, everything you experienced, the choices you made, the people you loved, etc, will all cease to exist. Our personal point of view is all that really matters, because it is the reason why we even have thoughts, preferences, opinions, cares worries, etc. We can be unselfish and die for someone else, but it's because we love the person, or think it's just the right thing to do. If you cease to exist, there is no comfort in knowing you did make a sacrifice. You may just have well done nothing at all. From your point of view, everything would cease to exist.

I would also argue that all we do know is eternal life. We can't imagine anything other than being alive. Living forever is not hard to grasp at all, to me. I can only think of living, and continuing to exist and have thoughts, for all eternity.

You say that would be boring? It's better than everything else existing, BUT you.

Really? How can anyone actually grasp the meaning of living all eternity? How many years does it incorporate? 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
??? It's even infinitly more than that! How can you possibly fathom the idea of eternity when all you live for is just a mere ad infinitum fraction of that?
Why,guys, is this view so depressing? It shouldn't be. Look at it this way : You, by the chaotic processes in nature have been given an amazing opportunity to experience something that an infinite number of non-existent things never will. Isn't that something to be amazed at? Please don't be selfish and expect it to last forever, because it won't and eventually you most likely won't want it to.

Yes, I'll admit, if you cease to exist there is no comfort because you are merely that; ceasing to exist. But what exactly happens when you die? Nobody knows, and don't be afraid to admit that. <I'd like to go further here, but this being a Christianity forum discussing the reality of death may not go down well..>

However, I'll also say that by recognising how precious life really is, one will do the very best they can to ensure that others after them can have that same 'precious' experience - That's what make's us homo sapiens : Curiosity,empathy,love and compassion

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It's fishful thinking to imagine their's a God. Ultimately, there's no porpoise for existence.

You're only being sharkastic because you're not prawn again.

Btw, I think the OP's user name (John West) fits perfectly with the fishy puns.

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

Really? How can anyone actually grasp the meaning of living all eternity? How many years does it incorporate?
??? It's even infinitly more than that! How can you possibly fathom the idea of eternity when all you live for is just a mere ad infinitum fraction of that?

Like I said, all I know is being alive. It's not hard to comprehend at all. Our experience is always "here" and "now" in the present. From our point of view, the present will just continue to be. It's only difficult if you are looking to the endless future, trying to fathom the quantity of time/events. Existing is all we know. We know nothing of it being ended, or of non-existence.

orestes

PDN wrote: »

You think this is the right plaice for that kind of joke?

This post had to be edited cos I missed the pun, thought I was getting given out to for not taking the op seriously and pmd PDN apologising

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Like I said, all I know is being alive. It's not hard to comprehend.

Being alive is impossible to know, there's a whole subject of philosophy dedicated to understanding life.
Who are you?
Why are you here?...etc etc


So really all you've admitted is that you're scared of not knowing something?
Is it really, that unreasonable to assume that someday we will no longer exist? Can eternity really be forever?
Why is that thought depressing???

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

Being alive is impossible to know, there's a whole subject of philosophy dedicated to understanding life.
Who are you?
Why are you here?...etc etc


So really all you've admitted is that you're scared of not knowing something?
Is it really, that unreasonable to assume that someday we will no longer exist? Can eternity really be forever?
Why is that thought depressing???

Yes, I'm scared of the idea that there would be a time where there is no longer what constitutes my "self" that is aware of it's own existence.
It's not unreasonable to assume that we will no longer exist, no. I have no problem with that. But it is depressing.
Forever isn't hard for me to believe, sorry.

Non-existence is depressing to me because the moment I die, it will be as if I had never lived. In essence, I'm not even here now. I will have no memory of it, so how would I know?
Are you supposed to feel good about leaving behind a memory to others? Other who will also cease to exist shortly and will never know that they did know you? Eventually the memory of all life will be gone, there will be no one to experience what has happened, or even an acknowledgement of what humans have done. The best you can hope for is that your actions, or your matter, will somehow contribute to some unknown inconsequential atomic activity before the entire universe dies or changes drastically. Why are you even talking to me?

Now, of course I won't know if I don't exist, but that's the point. Why even exist at all if you never even know about it, or are never able to continue on, acknowledging that "you" indeed are still existing, and appreciate that fact. There is no difference in dying at birth, never being born, living a life of suffering, living a life of please for 120 years, or any other existence you can think of, because in a century or less, for all you know, you never even existed in the first place.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Yes, I'm scared of the idea that there would be a time where there is no longer what constitutes my "self" that is aware of it's own existence.
It's not unreasonable to assume that we will no longer exist, no. I have no problem with that. But it is depressing.
Forever isn't hard for me to believe, sorry.

Non-existence is depressing to me because the moment I die, it will be as if I had never lived. In essence, I'm not even here now. I will have no memory of it, so how would I know?
Are you supposed to feel good about leaving behind a memory to others? Other who will also cease to exist shortly and will never know that they did know you? Eventually the memory of all life will be gone, there will be no one to experience what has happened, or even an acknowledgement of what humans have done. The best you can hope for is that your actions, or your matter, will somehow contribute to some unknown inconsequential atomic activity before the entire universe dies or changes drastically. Why are you even talking to me?

Now, of course I won't know if I don't exist, but that's the point. Why even exist at all if you never even know about it, or are never able to continue on, acknowledging that "you" indeed are still existing, and appreciate that fact. There is no difference in dying at birth, never being born, living a life of suffering, living a life of please for 120 years, or any other existence you can think of, because in a century or less, for all you know, you never even existed in the first place.

Jeez, Now that is a real depressing view:)

Clearly, you and I view life differently

So, ahem, the Chozo viewed life as precious, didn't they? They loved and admired all living beings, they were explorers that realised that the greatest purpose to life was merely to exist,appreciate and understand it's beauty.
(Yet somehow, those pr$%ks may have got to 'ascend' to a higher plane...)

I'm talking to you, because I feel that although in the grander scheme of things my life is meaningless, in the here,the now, and the not too distant future when I'm gone, life is everything I can make it and I do intend to make the most out of it so that others can thrive.
Why would I want it to last forever? That's a very selfcentred view imo.
Your time will come to pass, accept it and the make most of life while you've still got time to do so.

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

Jeez, Now that is a real depressing view:)

Clearly, you and I view life differently

So, ahem, the Chozo viewed life as precious, didn't they? They loved and admired all living beings, they were explorers that realised that the greatest purpose to life was merely to exist,appreciate and understand it's beauty.
(Yet somehow, those pr$%ks may have got to 'ascend' to a higher plane...)

I'm talking to you, because I feel that although in the grander scheme of things my life is meaningless, in the here,the now, and the not too distant future when I'm gone, life is everything I can make it and I do intend to make the most out of it so that others can thrive.
Why would I want it to last forever? That's a very selfcentred view imo.
Your time will come to pass, accept it and the make most of life while you've still got time to do so.

I appreciate your sincerity and humbleness.
Desiring to live forever is self-centered? Do you not want to live now? How is that any different? Who made the rule that being content with 70-100 years is unselfish?

What do you think "making the most of life" is? You say you want to make others thrive? Who? People who believe the same way you do? Why do you want them to thrive? So they can do the same? Why should the human race continue on? Why should "it" want to live forever? Shouldn't it accept that it will end?

I do want to make the most of my time here. For me, it's to help others and bring them to the knowledge and understanding of God, Jesus, and His plan for our lives. It's also to prepare myself to be in the presence of an eternal God.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

I appreciate your sincerity and humbleness.

Desiring to live forever is self-centered? Do you not want to live now? How is that any different?

It is very different.
I want to live now to experience this world, however living forever is selfish because If I were to live forever, why then would there be a need to bring others into this world?Also, considering how lucky I am to be alive it would seem that others deserve this opportunity in the best quality they possibly can. And I seriously think that after an infinite lifetime on this world I'd be getting pretty bored of it; what drives most of us now is our curiosity and wonder. Surely in an infinite amount of time that would (infinitely:pac:) slowly wane away?

Who made the rule that being content with 70-100 years is unselfish?

Our Selfish genes.

What do you think "making the most of life" is?

Short and snappy, but making the most out of life means one thing :
Doing what one considers best to their health,enjoyment and overall well being, including that of others.

You say you want to make others thrive? Who? People who believe the same way you do? Why do you want them to thrive? So they can do the same?

Other humans, with a better understanding of this world:). I want us to one day reach the potential whereby the universe is no longer this strange enigma to us.

Why should the human race continue on? Why should "it" want to live forever? Shouldn't it accept that it will end?

What you are essentially saying is that if there is no reason for life then humanity should cease to be. Well, there is a reason and that reason is to exist. As I mentioned before, surely one should appreciate the glorious opportunity that we've been given instead of complaining about what we're going to miss? Our lineage may infact become eternal, but the only way we can assure that is by making the most out of our own lives, so yes, in a way we are being selfish - survive as long as we can, to do our bit so that others of our kind may follow on our legacy.
Why should we expect to survive forever,though? If that is the case why would we need this urge, this drive, to discover and understand things - without a deadline it's hard to be motivated.

I do want to make the most of my time here. For me, it's to help others and bring them to the knowledge and understanding of God, Jesus, and His plan for our lives. It's also to prepare myself to be in the presence of an eternal God.

Following Jesus, in the human sense, I can understand but an eternal God with a plan? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense why would anyone or anything want to be eternal?
Perhaps, that the reason I am me, and you are you.:)

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

It is very different.
I want to live now to experience this world, however living forever is selfish because If I were to live forever, why then would there be a need to bring others into this world?

I'm not sure I follow.

Malty_T wrote: »

Also, considering how lucky I am to be alive it would seem that others deserve this opportunity in the best quality they possibly can. And I seriously think that after an infinite lifetime on this world I'd be getting pretty bored of it; what drives most of us now is our curiosity and wonder. Surely in an infinite amount of time that would (infinitely:pac:) slowly wane away?

There is infinite more to discover, so we can learn and experience things eternally with no fear of boredom.

Malty_T wrote: »

Other humans, with a better understanding of this world:). I want us to one day reach the potential whereby the universe is no longer this strange enigma to us.

But then what? Those humans somehow are more worthy to exist? They too, will never know they had a greater understanding of the universe. They will not exist just the same as you and I.

Malty_T wrote: »

What you are essentially saying is that if there is no reason for life then humanity should cease to be. Well, there is a reason and that reason is to exist. As I mentioned before, surely one should appreciate the glorious opportunity that we've been given instead of complaining about what we're going to miss? Our lineage may infact become eternal, but the only way we can assure that is by making the most out of our own lives, so yes, in a way we are being selfish - survive as long as we can, to do our bit so that others of our kind may follow on our legacy.
Why should we expect to survive forever,though? If that is the case why would we need this urge, this drive, to discover and understand things - without a deadline it's hard to be motivated.

All of this sounds like you actually would enjoy eternal life. You just seem to think it will be boring and there will be no "drive" to do things since you are just existing forever. You don't have a problem if your lineage lives on forever? How about if you live forever with amnesia every 100 years? :P

Malty_T wrote: »

Following Jesus, in the human sense, I can understand but an eternal God with a plan? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense why would anyone or anything want to be eternal?
Perhaps, that the reason I am me, and you are you.:)

I guess.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

As for the materialistic view of there being no life after death, is it really that depressing? I mean, would you really want to exist forever? It'd get boring eventually I'd imagine.
One of the great 'natural' philosophers Democritus believed that all things were made up of eternal things called 'atoms' and that when we the die that atoms that make up our 'immortal' soul would scatter throughout nature to revive some other process e.g when you die your atoms will go to trees, air,the life of your child, the life of some unborn child etc etc
All nature is eternal, human beings are not.
It's a materialistic view, but it isn't necessarily depressing - to quote a great post from the A&A forum


It's your life, make the best sum that you can

I think it's rather a depressing thought, actually. All that you are - your thoughts, loves, knowledge - and all that you ever could be are forever gone ... The same fate, of course, awaits all your loved ones.

Furthermore, the idea of living forever in a state of perfection - whatever that actually entails - and playing an active part in creation is most appealing to quite a few people. That boredom could be associated with an infinite perfection seems like a logical contradiction - the stuff of square circles and married bachelors. Hopefully eternity isn't the sole factor in a persons decision to become a Christian.

I cant imagine what solace one could derive from the knowledge that atoms formally associated with yourself may one day go on to form a minute part of a tree, your progeny or whatever. Why, given this, there is even the possibility that they may go into forming a minute part of the next Hitler - the really evil part. Dear Lord! What a thought.

Ultimately, the thought that your atoms may one day be assimilated into some other thing succeeds in warming the cockles of my my heart about as much as the knowledge that my toenail clippings might endure beyond whatever it is that makes me me expires. Indeed, I find it about a sensible an argument as saying you are still somehow enjoying your two weeks in Santa Ponsa from summer '08 because you cunningly left a few skin cells behind the wardrobe in your hotel room.

Beyond the notion of the "multi-verse", I'm not sure I've ever heard an atheist float the idea that nature is eternal. Indeed, I believe that most theories regarding the ultimate fate of the universe describe its final end. But maybe I'm wrong here and many atheists do believe that nature (and possibly themselves) endures time immemorial and beyond.

Russell spelled it out in quite daunting but quite beautiful words in the quote below.

That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspirations, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of the universe in ruins-all these things, if not beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built.

While neither Russell (AFAIK) nor I are saying that life for the non-believer is a meaningless series of interactions until death, I don't think you should fool yourself by attempting to draw comfort from something that seems to approach thinking of atoms as things imbued with some sort quasi-spirituality or meaning.

Tim Robbins

john west wrote: »

lately i have been having trouble with my faith! i jsut dont see how all the bad things are happening in thtis world to innocent people if there was a god watching over them! im beginning to think my friend was rght about the whole Science thing! that we are an accident in science! and thats it!
it sadens me to think that when i or my loved ones die the only thing that will happen is we go 6 ft under and the bugs get us!
i dont think the church cares about people ! sure all they want is our money and keep the scandals quite!
i just hope if there is a god out there! he takes mercy on my sole!

There's a hole bunch of us who have been realising things like that across the road in the A&A forum for a very long time.

Grab a coffee and come over for a chat :-)

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I cant imagine what solace one could derive from the knowledge that atoms formally associated with yourself may one day go on to form a minute part of a tree, your progeny or whatever. Why, given this, there is even the possibility that they may go into forming a minute part of the next Hitler - the really evil part. Dear Lord! What a thought

I was merely referencing Democritus's philosophy who,I think, was the world's first real materialist. I do not find any solace in it, I never said I did. I'm just being realistic and, I feel, it helps me to appreciate more what I've actually been given.

I don't think you should fool yourself by attempting to draw comfort from something that seems to approach thinking of atoms as things imbued with some sort quasi-spirituality or meaning.

Again, I'm not in the slightest bit spiritual, but I do tend to agree more so with the idea that this 'world' (however you can possibly define it I do not know) has, and will always, exist.
Nothing can come from nothing, therefore there must always be something.
The conception of a 'creation' i.e a beginning, or there in fact being a 'nothing' (Seriously, what is 'nothing' how do you define it?), is merely a paradigm shift of the human mind. That is simply my belief but in all honesty, I do not know, and I'm not afraid to admit that.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

I guess.

Hi, sorry for the delay

I'm not sure I follow.

If everyone were to live forever, why then, would we need to pass genes on? We would limit the amount of people who can actually experience what we've got the awesome chance to experience. Think about it for a second, how are you actually here?
You're here because somewhere down the line all your ancestors overcame whatever perils were thrown in their face and were able to find a suitable,attractive,healthy mate so they could pass the gene that was carrying you all the way down a huge family tree, until presto here you are.
Why would we want to go to so much of a struggle to pass on our genes, if they were always going to survive anyways?

There is infinite more to discover, so we can learn and experience things eternally with no fear of boredom.

Infinity is just an elegant mathematical concept, it still has to have a limit, doesn't it?I still think that boredom will set in (infinitely) slowly..

But then what? Those humans somehow are more worthy to exist? They too, will never know they had a greater understanding of the universe. They will not exist just the same as you and I.

No they certainly aren't more worthy of existence,but that doesn't mean they're not entitled to it:). They will be given a chance to understand the universe and they will also have the knowledge of what we discovered at their disposal. Thus, they'll have a head start over us, whether this will lead to them getting a better understanding than us we will never know. Who knows, they may not like our present understanding, descend in anarchy, and annihilate each other. I do not know, what they will do, but I do not deny them the opportunity. Why should I deny them one, when I was given the exact same one?

All of this sounds like you actually would enjoy eternal life. You just seem to think it will be boring and there will be no "drive" to do things since you are just existing forever. You don't have a problem if your lineage lives on forever? How about if you live forever with amnesia every 100 years? :P

LOL:D
If I lived forever and wasn't aware I had full blown periodic global amnesia then it would be like living a separate life every 100 years. So really, how would that be different from say, just living one life and dying, when in essence I'd be a different person each time.
I do want my lineage to live forever, but I don't want myself to.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

If death is so final, what does it matter to you what you leave behind I never understood that attitude.

If death is final surely nothing else matters but what you leave behind.

If the past is all you have you had better make sure it was a worthy one. There is no point saying "I'll do better next time", sorry no next time. Carpe diem and all that.

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

If death is final surely nothing else matters but what you leave behind.

If the past is all you have you had better make sure it was a worthy one. There is no point saying "I'll do better next time", sorry no next time. Carpe diem and all that.

O Captain, my captain but who does it matter to? If death is final it can't matter to you because you're dead and that's it, you cease. I can understand someone saying the present is all you have so make it a good one, but I don't understand someone who thinks death is so final saying the past is all you have, because you don't have anything.

Turtwig

prinz wrote: »

I don't understand someone who thinks death is so final saying the past is all you have, because you don't have anything.

I cannot believe that so many people share this viewpoint.

How can you be so SELFISH????
Do you not care about the quality of life of those that follow you?

prinz

Malty_T wrote: »

I cannot believe that so many people share this viewpoint.

How can you be so SELFISH????
Do you not care about the quality of life of those that follow you?

I don't subscribe to it, just arguing the viewpoint... so what you're saying is that the future of other's is all they will have, as opposed to your past is all you will have.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

O Captain, my captain but who does it matter to? If death is final it can't matter to you because you're dead and that's it, you cease.

But it can matter to you when you are alive.

I know that my parents, neither who I think believe in an after life, care that they leave their children better off than they were growing up (leaving your children better off than you were is a common goal among most people)

Saying But why do you care, you will be dead so you won't be around to see them being better off, is some what egotistical. Perhaps that isn't what you mean

Turtwig

prinz wrote: »

I don't subscribe to it, just arguing the viewpoint... so what you're saying is that the future of other's is all they will have, as opposed to your past is all you will have.

Really though, by arguing that the materialist should not care, have no empathy, love or compassion??

Yes, death will be the end.

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

But it can matter to you when you are alive.

Yes that's what I was getting at, it matters to you when you are alive. So you won't have a past when you're dead, you just made the best of the present when it was the present. I was just confused about the use of tenses, such as 'the past is all you'll have'... whereas you won't actually 'have' anything because you've ceased. I'll drop it now, confusing myself.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

Yes that's what I was getting at, it matters to you when you are alive.

Well yes

It matters when you are alive, but that doesn't mean you can't think about how things are going to be in the future when you are dead, or that you won't care now how things are going to be when you are dead. So it can, very much so, matter what you leave behind. Or more specifically matter to you now what you are going to leave behind.

But only matters to you when you are alive :P

chozometroid

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes

It matters when you are alive, but that doesn't mean you can't think about how things are going to be in the future when you are dead, or that you won't care now how things are going to be when you are dead. So it can, very much so, matter what you leave behind. Or more specifically matter to you now what you are going to leave behind.

But only matters to you when you are alive :P

Problem is, it still only matters while you are alive. When you are gone, you won't know if:
1. You left a lot of good behind that you didn't know about. People will appreciate it, but your intentions had nothing to do with it, so it was meaningless in relation to you.
2. You were actually hated by everyone, and left a lot of problems behind, and actually felt you lived a good life, satisfied with your accomplishments, and content at the end of your days.

It's pointless either way. Trying to say you are unselfish in that you care what you leave behind is meaningless. All that's left is a memory, which fades after "x" number of generations, depending on how impactful you were. It really does not matter, if indeed we all cease to exist.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Problem is, it still only matters while you are alive. When you are gone, you won't know if:
1. You left a lot of good behind that you didn't know about. People will appreciate it, but your intentions had nothing to do with it, so it was meaningless in relation to you.
2. You were actually hated by everyone, and left a lot of problems behind, and actually felt you lived a good life, satisfied with your accomplishments, and content at the end of your days.

It's pointless either way. Trying to say you are unselfish in that you care what you leave behind is meaningless. All that's left is a memory, which fades after "x" number of generations, depending on how impactful you were. It really does not matter, if indeed we all cease to exist.

You know, in a strange way I'm kinda glad you believe in God.:)

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

You know, in a strange way I'm kinda glad you believe in God.:)

Otherwise I could only hope for a trip to Zebes, where I would commence "making a difference" for a more hopeful alien race that has a better chance than us at evading everlasting destruction.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

I was merely referencing Democritus's philosophy who,I think, was the world's first real materialist. I do not find any solace in it, I never said I did. I'm just being realistic and, I feel, it helps me to appreciate more what I've actually been given.

In that case, I would suggest that you haven't been given anything because no one is handing anything out. Other than thanking your parents for their night of passion that resulted in your conception (probably best not to dwell on that), you don't have anyone to be thankful to. In universal terms you are simply an accident - one of mind boggling improbability - that will be extinguished and forgotten in the twinkle of a celestial eye. Again, I'm not at all saying that this means life for the non-believer is without meaning, but it's quite a sobering thought, no?

Malty_T wrote: »

Again, I'm not in the slightest bit spiritual, but I do tend to agree more so with the idea that this 'world' (however you can possibly define it I do not know) has, and will always, exist.
Nothing can come from nothing, therefore there must always be something.
The conception of a 'creation' i.e a beginning, or there in fact being a 'nothing' (Seriously, what is 'nothing' how do you define it?), is merely a paradigm shift of the human mind. That is simply my belief but in all honesty, I do not know, and I'm not afraid to admit that.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Ever since the 60's (or was it the early 70's) when cosmic microwave background radiation was detected the Big Bang has been widely accepted as the best theory available to explain our universe. Thus the idea that the universe always existed, including the Earth, has been dumped.

The answer to what supernatural cause (from a philosophic perspective the word "cause" might not be the correct word to use) caused time and the universe to begin isn't simply a "paradigm shift". I would think that what ever it is that happened it's quite a bit more fundamental than how we choose to look at it at any one time. And for clarity, I'm not necessarily implying a Divine cause when I mentioned supernatural cause. Rather, it seems that anything that is the cause of nature must by definition be super-natural. That's possibly me digressing, though.

Zombrex

chozometroid wrote: »

Problem is, it still only matters while you are alive. When you are gone, you won't know if:
1. You left a lot of good behind that you didn't know about. People will appreciate it, but your intentions had nothing to do with it, so it was meaningless in relation to you.
2. You were actually hated by everyone, and left a lot of problems behind, and actually felt you lived a good life, satisfied with your accomplishments, and content at the end of your days.

It's pointless either way. Trying to say you are unselfish in that you care what you leave behind is meaningless. All that's left is a memory, which fades after "x" number of generations, depending on how impactful you were. It really does not matter, if indeed we all cease to exist.

Try telling that to Hitler :pac:

I'm really not following this view point but perhaps I'm simply not understanding it. I think it matters a great deal what you leave behind even if you are not around to view it yourself.

Are you seriously saying that if there was no after life you would not care one bit what happens to anyone after the moment you die? Or again am I miss-understanding

Biro

Malty_T wrote: »

<I'd like to go further here, but this being a Christianity forum discussing the reality of death may not go down well..>

I'm sorry, but unless you have concrete evidence of what death is really like, as in you've experienced it yourself, then that statement should read : "I'd like to go further here, but this being a Christianity forum discussing the reality my opinion of what happens at death may not go down well"

Turtwig

Biro wrote: »

I'm sorry, but unless you have concrete evidence of what death is really like, as in you've experienced it yourself, then that statement should read : "I'd like to go further here, but this being a Christianity forum discussing the reality my opinion of what happens at death may not go down well"

My personal experience of death would be anecdotal wouldn't it? Not sure how that would constitute it being concrete evidence.:p

Believe it or not, there has actually been some research done into what happens when the body 'dies'. That is the reality of 'death' as far as I'm concerned.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that you haven't been given anything because no one is handing anything out. Other than thanking your parents for their night of passion that resulted in your conception (probably best not to dwell on that), you don't have anyone to be thankful to. In universal terms you are simply an accident - one of mind boggling improbability - that will be extinguished and forgotten in the twinkle of a celestial eye. Again, I'm not at all saying that this means life for the non-believer is without meaning, but it's quite a sobering thought, no?

Yep an accident - one that I'm grateful for. Yes, I am thankful. I understand that were it not for the Big Bang, the chaotic formation of our solar system, the Great Iron Catastrophe, The evolution of the homo sapien and the survival of the gene carrying me all the way through this process of millions of years I would not be here. Isn't that something to be mindboggled at? Yes I will be forgotten eventually, but in the here and the not too distant future I won't be and that is all that really matters to me. After all, How can the human mind possibly grasp the idea of 1000 years of ordinary time? Let alone 1,000,000 or more!? I want to make the most of this wonderful accident because I realise it's a rare opportunity to get. I'm still failing to see how the fact that when I die I'm gone forever should be a sobering thought.

The answer to what supernatural cause (from a philosophic perspective the word "cause" might not be the correct word to use) caused time and the universe to begin isn't simply a "paradigm shift". I would think that what ever it is that happened it's quite a bit more fundamental than how we choose to look at it at any one time. And for clarity, I'm not necessarily implying a Divine cause when I mentioned supernatural cause. Rather, it seems that anything that is the cause of nature must by definition be super-natural. That's possibly me digressing, though.

Why does there have to be a 'cause' maybe the universe always just was?

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Ever since the 60's (or was it the early 70's) when cosmic microwave background radiation was detected the Big Bang has been widely accepted as the best theory available to explain our universe. Thus the idea that the universe always existed, including the Earth, has been dumped.

The Big Bang theory, is not a theory on the origin of the universe, it is merely a model that describes the expansion and evolution of this known matter universe since a known instant in time. What happens before that is left open to others theories.
I guess I should apologise for not clarifying what I meant about the term universe:
I know that the Earth has not always existed, in fact I think that's its very formation was cool. So, when I refer to the universe, what am I referring to? I'm trying to refer to everything - Our universe and beyond it. Maybe, we need another word to encompass that? For now though I will stick to the universe and try to make it clear what 'universe' sense I'm referring to.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm still failing to see how the fact that when I die I'm gone forever should be a sobering thought.

Well, if you are truly happy with your time on this earth - however many years it turns out to be - and wont go into the eternal night raging against your demise (assuming you have the opportunity), then more power to you. I wont attempt to argue any further that you are wrong.

Malty_T wrote: »

Why does there have to be a 'cause' maybe the universe always just was?

Well, that really seems like more of a metaphysical appeal, and one that I believe isn't supported by current scientific understanding. But others will know more about this than I.

But if you are being true to your previous post, then I wonder how your above plea fits in with Lear's words? Or have you so quickly forgotten your stated position that nothing will come of nothing?

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, that really seems like more of a metaphysical appeal, and one that I believe isn't supported by current scientific understanding. But others will know more about this than I.

But if you are being true to your previous post, then I wonder how your above plea fits in with Lear's words? Or have you so quickly forgotten your stated position that nothing will come of nothing?

It's more a philosophical question as to why do we think things need to actually have a beginning?

I haven't forgotten my position, because I do not actually understand what is meant by 'nothing', but yes if you mean it in the sort of conventional sense then by that logic there must always have been something. Big Bang theory neither proves/disproves that.
Current Thinking is that universe (the one we inhabit) began from vacuum energy..but what in the yeck is that?Something else maybe:P

Lear was a blind old looney

chozometroid wrote: »

Otherwise I could only hope for a trip to Zebes, where I would commence "making a difference" for a more hopeful alien race that has a better chance than us at evading everlasting destruction.

Spreading the light of hope through the darkness I presume